| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2563
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 5:29 pm: | 
|
Gareth
You would amazed at the amount of cash these impoverished unfortunates carried around in their stays.
I have some cases and I’ll post them in due course.
And just in case Robert or Debra have had creeping doubts about my sincerity when it comes to the Cutbush clan, I have to say I have the greatest admiration for this highly detailed nit-picking into the clan, and like many others I do feel this is the cutting edge of modern research into this almost defeated subject.
I do believe that Thomas Cutbush was the Whitechapel Murderer but I aim to do everything in my power to prove that he was not.
And then we will know he was.
Because I am going to fail. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5053
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
|
Ah, AP, the Karl Popper approach! Yes, all suspects should be bashed, and we can see if any of them are still standing afterwards.
Robert |
Mr.Phil
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
|
Robert,
Thanks for the will transcriptions, they have confirmed my blood relationship to THC (might help to explain some of my more aberrant behaviour, although I much prefer women all in one piece). |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2835
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
|
Trolling through endless reports I found a horticultural ‘Hayne’ who just happened to be beating the horticultural Cutbush’s for first place in the geranium class at the Royal Horticultural Society shows at Chelsea during the LVP.
Notably in 1879 when Cutbush was cut-bashed into second place by this ‘Hayne’.
One wonders whether the marriage between the Hayne and Cutbush clans came about through this horticultural connection?
The American and German Hayne families were botanists and horticulturalists supreme during this time period; and I did find a Hayne from London who met his death in a fire at some fabulous exhibition in Texas when his geraniums went up in smoke and burnt the whole place down.
Which put me in mind of a Kate Hayne I found in Texas - years ago now - at about the same time.
Just thoughts. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2611
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
|
Ap,I noticed that in a photograph of The Whitechapel Bell Foundry in East End Past[Historical publications]the shop front is shown and the side which now leads into Plumbers Row.However attached to that side is the streetname sign "Fieldgate Street" not Plumbers Row as [I think]is now the case.Do I seem to remember you wanting me to look out for some house numbers in "Fieldgate Street"?The photograph is from the Guildhall Library apparently and looks as though it was taken some years ago as the shop front looks much smarter these days.
Fascinating snippet above!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2836
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
|
Thanks Natalie
Yes, I wanted to know whether houses that formed part of Fieldgate Street - near to the Whitechapel Foundry - also fronted Whitchapel Road, so that a property could have a front door in the Whitechapel Road and a back door in Fieldgate Street.
I do know that further along Fieldgate that was the situation, from a case involving the Salvation Army, but I was particularly interested in the properties close to the Whitechapel Foundry.
As these were the Cutbush & Flood properties.
I’d love to know the number sequence, like what Whitechapel Road address would number 5 Fieldgate Street have?
Complicated, I know.
In this regard it is well worth studying the addresses of the numerous traders of Whitechapel who signed a declaration in 1888 protesting about the impact the murder had on their daily trade. |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 171
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
|
AP and Natalie,
I have seen the foundry given as two different addresses quite recently, one in Fieldgate St. the other in Whitechapel Rd....I will dig it, it's disappeared as usual.
There must be a connection to the horticultural Cutbush’s somewhere in all this!
Debra |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2615
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:51 pm: |
|
AP and Debra,
I have spent an exasperating half hour trying to locate my 1894 Ordnance Survey maps of Whitechapel.Some have the numbers of houses and their inhabitants/traders on the back.Its well worth buying them-there is a site on line which sells them.
Anyway Ap - the whole section of property that comprises the Whitechapel Foundry has both a "front"[side[?] door on what was Fieldgate Street similar to the "front" doors round the corner on Whitechapel High Street and two of these doors adjacent to one another but at right angles to one another appear as doors to houses with a "shop" in them while another just looks like an elegant Georgian residential property next to the main shop front on Whitechapel road.
Clearly Fieldgate Street extended to the end of the House cum shop.Then it would appear that the rest of the building, which looks like a giant warehouse of exactly the same period, leads into Plumbers Row.Maybe this was the case in the past whereas now the side that "fronts" Plumbers Row is all in one Plumbers Row address!
Its a bit like the rabbit hole in Alice in Wonderland!
Inside is a little Court yard also with an old and what looks like authentic iron street sign still adhering above a window saying,again,Whitechapel High Street EC1[think it was 1].Seeing is believing!
Hope I soon find those damn maps!
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2619
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 6:57 am: |
|
Right.Have found the 1894 Ordnance survey map of Whitechapel.
There are dozens of names and addresses on the back including Aldgate High Street-various nos but not 29!
Central News Agency was at 5 Old Broad Street near Liverpool street station-so very close to where all the action was----no need to post because you could deliver by hand!
At 58 GEORGE YARD there is a big "Empire Telephone Co"[therefore erected before 1894 which is the date of the map].
At 15 WENTWORTH STREET -Isaac Woolf[any relation?]stationer
At 66 GOULSTON STREET Sickerman Hyams-butcher.
Alas no Fieldgate Street here-the names are very arbitrary too-no rhyme or reason apparent as to why some are there and not others----no mention of Mitre Square,St.Botolphs etc.....anyways
On the map itself there is a clear,horizontal line marking the end of the Foundry house[what is now the shop and offices] as Fieldgate Street turns Eastwards and as the section of old wall continues it becomes part of Plumbers Row and widens and extends into the warehouse of the main Bell Foundry works.
Fieldgate Street, on the other hand,becomes mainly residential with densely packed houses on both sides.
Hope some of this helps-if you havent seen the map already.
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 671
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 9:10 am: |
|
Hi Natalie,
Here you go
Fieldgate Street 1895
Whitechapel Road 1895 (listed East to West)
Rob
P.S Thank you for the kind words. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2623
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 10:23 am: |
|
Hi Rob,
Thats brilliant!Thanks so much-Ap will be able to see what I am talking about now as the plan of the Bell Foundry is so clear on it.Is this the 1894 Ordnance Survey map then?If so its got more information than mine-maybe yours is an earlier edition-the one I have I got in May this year and there isnt anything written down about Fieldgate Street on the back of it.
I noticed too that the Bell Foundry address is given as 267,under "Mears and Stainbank"!Wonder what Ap or Robert make of that!
Your article Robert was superb- truly,and a marvellous portrayal of the precariousness of life for a vulnerable young family in the East End in 1901[just a year after the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was born
and only eight years after my own grandmother was born[November 29 1894-I miscalculated the other day saying she was born in 1892]
Food for thought!
Thanks again
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 672
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
|
Thanks Natalie, the map I used was an 1894 map but is the yard to a mile edition, which gives a bit more detail then the 14 inches to the mile.
The directory I got from The Historical Directories website http://www.historicaldirectories.org/ which is a good site but can be slow at times.
Best wishes
Rob |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2840
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:46 pm: |
|
Thanks Natalie, Debra & Rob.
But I'm confused now.
I thought the Whitechapel Foundry to be at 32 & 34 Whitechapel Road?
And the Cutbush/Flood property at number 35?
Where is RCL when you need him?
Come back, Robert, all is forgiven. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2627
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
|
Ap,the property itself is an exercise in confusion!There seem to be front doors everywhere
and inside, outside ,around corners...also as I said a very oddly placed street sign saying WHITECHAPEL HIGH STREET----inside the courtyard at the back!
Something seems to have changed dramatically over the years as far as the address goes.
Natalie |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 176
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 3:48 pm: |
|
AP, the Flood/Cutbush property was 30 Whitechapel Rd. and one directory pre 1835 had Tom Flood Cutbush at 1 Fielgate St.
The Foundry is listed as 267 Whitechapel Rd in all directories except one where it is given as 207, but that looks like a misprint.
Now I am sure I have seen the foundry address given as 35 Fieldgate Street as well but not come across that yet.
Debra
Just checked again, 1846 Luke Flood cutbush was at 35 Fielgate St.
Isn't the current address of The Whitechapel Foundry 32/34 Whitechapel Rd?
(Message edited by dj on November 20, 2005) |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 673
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
|
Hi AP, Debra,
A 1915 Directory lists the Bell Foundry as 31 to 34 Whitechapel Road.
There is in a 1841 directory, a Luke Flood Cutbush at 35 Fieldgate Street.
I'm not certain where 35 Fieldgate Street was, but I suspect it was right next to the Bell Foundry.
Rob |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2845
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:22 pm: |
|
Debra, Natalie
I believe Robert has already given a 272 Whitechapel Road as a Mears property, but not the Foundry. This may well have been the original site of the foundry before it moved down the road.
This all had something to do with the Mount and the London Hospital, and the subsequent development.
Whatever, I'm inclined to think that the entire area we talk about was under the direct control of the Cutbush/Flood family through the double marriage that brought them into the Mears family. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2629
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
|
Hi Debra,Rob,
Thanks for the new information you have both posted today.Very helpful,if still slightly confusing!
I was writing yesterday that The shop now stands at the corner of Whitechapel High Street and ,I thought,Plumbers Row.However it may be that part of that large complex that comprises the shop and Bell foundry area is STILL in Fieldgate Street,ie the corner area where the front abutts onto Whitechapel High Street and the side onto Fieldgate Street or Plumbers Row. The area further up,towards the Atlantis Art Shop,is now definitely part of Plumbers Row.
I also mention,if you look at one of the posts above,that a photo of the shop ,taken some while back,shows the shop front more or less as it is today and still fronting Whitechapel High Street,but with the street name "Fieldgate Street",fastened to the house round the corner on a side wall.The numbering and maybe its street name must have changed over the years!
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 674
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
It is confusing. I just had a look at an 1873 map and it shows part of Fieldgate extended South wards where Plummers Row is.
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2630
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
|
Thanks for the great map Rob!
I had in fact worked out that that is what must have been the case.You can see marks on the 1894 map that point towards this being the case.
It also shows the Bell Foundry so clearly and I reckon several of those houses belonged to the Foundry owners if not all of them!
A really helpful find Rob
Thanks again
Nats |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 177
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
|
Hi Rob
Thanks for the last map, the Fieldgate addresses seem to make a lot more sense now.
Debra |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2632
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
|
But what about those numbers Ap was interested in obtaining-was it nos 6 and 8 Fieldgate Street?If so the exact time period seems to be needed with so many changes of address and numbering let alone
the actual area this streetcovered at any one time-its as slippery as an eel----just like those famous Cutbush boys and girls! |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
|
Natalie, I am working on trying to get a rough idea of the whereabouts these different Fieldgate Street addresses were,( it may take some time) I am trying to pinpoint certain pubs , a place called Orange Row Fieldgate St, New Court Fieldgate Street and the G&R Buildings Fielgate street...any clues about these? an extra bit of Fieldgate Street explains a couple of things that didn't follow on the census numbering.
6 and 8 are the addresses AP was interested in yes.
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2850
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 3:46 am: |
|
Some folk might be confused about my intentions in looking into the properties located between Fieldgate Street and Whitechapel Road, so I’ll explain myself.
We already know that some of these properties allowed a person to enter the front door of a property in the Whitechapel Road, and then to re-emerge again a few minutes later on Fieldgate Street, removed in time and distance from events which may have taken place on or near to the Whitechapel Road a few minutes earlier.
It struck me that such properties would allow a killer to quickly disappear from view, and then quickly be in an area - so removed by time and distance - where he would not be in any way connected to the murder scene which he has only just left.
A person wandering down Fieldgate Street would not be connected with events that had just taken place in the Whitechapel Road, because under normal circumstances there is no way that a person could be in the two places at almost the same time.
That is unless they had a property that provided such an escape route.
As we know the Cutbush/Flood clan had properties scattered up and down the Whitechapel Road and Fieldgate Street, and these included the properties owned by the Mears clan, which included the Whitechapel Foundry, a property along the Whitechapel Road and an Iron Foundry around the back of Fieldgate Street.
We also know that the Cutbush/Flood clan had an intimate relationship with the London Hospital - also on the Whitechapel Road.
The problem is that we are still investigating the properties owned by the clan, but that they were numerous and widespread cannot be denied. Recently I sent Robert some information which does appear to show that part of the clan owned a tea business in the Minories, and again I think of the obvious link between large properties in the Minories which directly abut onto properties on Aldgate High Street, and that again a person may well have been able to walk into a property in Aldgate High Street and walk out of it in the Minories, or vice versa of course.
Some time ago I showed that at least three of the murders took place outside tea warehouses, and at the time it was established that Thomas Cutbush had worked for a tea business in the Minories shortly before the murders commenced.
If it can be provided that Thomas’ family owned such a business in the Minories then I think we have established yet another vital link in this chain. |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 189
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 7:45 am: |
|
AP
Apart from possibly no.6 and 8 Fieldgate Street ( If we could find exactly where they were in the street) which we know the Cutbushes owned in the 1890's when TTC was being hunted, the only property I could see the Cutbushes owning in this area that might have had access in Whitechapel Road and Fieldgate Street was no. 30 Whitechapel Rd. The modern day no. 30 seems like it could have back access to Fieldgate Street, but was this the same no. 30 that was the Flood/Cutbush property? and also this address was only Flood/Cutbush related until 1840ish wasn't it? It's possible that a Cutbush still owned it in 1888 but didn't live there.
Also in 1888 the Mears no longer had connections to the foundry, the last Mears connection was George in 1860's, someone called Lawson owned the foundry at the time of the Ripper murders.
http://www.whitechapelbellfoundry.co.uk/ripper.htm
The tea business you mention at the end of the post, is this to do with Bones?
Debra
(Message edited by dj on November 23, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2851
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
|
You are probably right in whay you say, Debra, but it was my impression that no. 30 Whitechapel Road was rented out by the Cutbush's after a certain date - I seem to feel it was later than the 1840's but again you are usually right.
I think I'm right in saying that the Mears still held a property on the Whitechapel Road.
Hope so.
Plus we must not forget the protracted legal case that rumbled on between the Mears and Lord Grimthorpe throughout this entire period of time, which involved the Mears as well as the new owners of the Whitechapel Foundry.
There is 35 Fieldgate Street to sort out as well, which Luke Flood Cutbush had in 1841.
Yes, I think it was Bones, Debra.
He was some kind of local official.
I'll check. |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 191
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
|
Actually AP you could be right about no. 30, I think Robert mentioned that in the wills no. 30 always seems to have been rented out, as if the owner was reluctant to part with it.( When are you coming back Robert???)
The London Post office directory of 1834 gives an Isaac Newton , pen and quill manuf. at 30 Whitechapel Rd, but I think it could be no. 36 and not 30.
Anyhow Luke Flood seems to have been the last Cutbush listed there in 1832, that's shortly before his marriage to a Mears and move to 35 Fieldgate St.
The trouble I am having is there seems to have been three no.6's on Fieldgate Street according to the 1891 census.
There has been some excavation for Roman remains in some terraced houses in Fieldgate St in the last couple of years, and from the map given these seem pretty close to the edge of Whitechapel Road at the other side, the house no.s involved there were around the 40's.
I didn't mean to put a dampner on any of this, sorry!
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2852
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 4:31 pm: |
|
No worries, Debra, I always need a brake to slow me down, and your input is always vastly appreciated.
One wonders whether Luke Flood just walked from his front room at 30 Whitechapel straight into his back room at 35 Fieldgate, without having to move house?
If my memory serves me well I think the Fieldgate Street business to be much more complicated than we think, as an entire stretch of the street might well have belonged to the Floods.
It is possible to push the occupation of 35 Fieldgate by a Cutbush a few years further than 1841:
'three Cutbush in the 1846 London Directory:
> ...................
> Henry Cutbush (pork butcher) 2 Exmouth Street, Clerkenwell
> ...........
> Luke Flood Cutbush (painter) 35 Fieldgate Street, Whitechapel
> ..........
> Thomas Cutbush (painter & etc) 9 Woburn Buildings Tavistock Square'
Meanwhile I found this little incident from 13th November 1888 to be of interest, as I've never heard of it before, a woman screams 'murder', a PC comes to rescue her and then is roughed up by the local toughs;
'on Sunday night the officer heard screams of "murder" preceeding from Fieldgate-street, WHITECHAPEL. on preceeding there a woman was given into his custody ...' |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 198
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
|
I am feeling a little disheartened today and wondering why go to so much trouble with this, I have just been looking at Christopher J. Morley's new suspects ebook here on casebook and read that Thomas Hayne Cutbush's father still died when he was young!!!
AP, I think the Floods also got at least one of these Fieldgate addresses from The Trapp's, remember the 'bun muncher?'...long story though
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2859
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
|
Ah, Debra, the Ministry of Disinformation doth vex you sorely!
Don't be disheartened, but strike back with the correct detail, and just keep pushing it until the Ministry finally collapses in on itself.
Yes, of course I remember the 'bun muncher', a delightful fellow.
I shall follow the connection through the Old Bailey.
Chin up girl. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2860
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
|
Here is something to cheer you up, Debra:
'JOVIAL FAMILIES by A. Collier, London
This is a late 19th Century version of Happy Families with some strange family names such as "Frogswool" (the artist), "Cutbush" (the gardener) and "Cowhide" (the milkman). The cards have square corners and are in good but used condition. They come in their original box which is complete and the cards also appear to be complete (there are 40 of them and I don't think any more would fit in the box.) There are no instructions. Price: GBP 20.00' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5304
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
|
You've all been busy!
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2641
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
|
Yes Robert----where were you might I ask? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5306
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie
Computer power thingy needed replacing.
I must say that changing street numbers and spatial relationships just does my head in.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5307
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
|
Probably the only way to sort this out will be to go back though the insurance records.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2864
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
|
Debra
By 1888 nos. 29 & 30 Whitechapel Road were rented out to the Rosenhowers. The constant change in the census details would seem to indicate a rented property.
The 'Bones' that had the tea business in the Minories wouldn't have just happened to be at number 76 would they?
'Cos I have the Trapp's running a printing business at number 76 Minories in the 1830's. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5310
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
|
AP, I think the one you sent me was at No. 44.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5311
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
|
In 1881 a draper called Clayton was going bust. His premises were 27, 28, 29 and 30 Whitechapel Rd.
That's a lot of draping!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2865
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
|
So, Robert, that could mean that 27 through to 30 were owned by the same person?
And rented accordingly? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5312
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 25, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
I suppose so, AP. Turning to the 1881 census, it's hard to make out what's going on - Clayton is only listed at 30, and there is a licensed victualler at 29. My previous post referred to a Times item.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Inspector
Username: Dj
Post Number: 199
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:39 am: |
|
Nice to see you back Robert.
I have just been looking at the trial of Henry Wainwright for the murder of Harriet Lane 1874/75 and think it might help in numbering the part of Whitechapel Road that backs on to Fieldgate Street.
Later books on the case mention that Whitechapel Road was re-numbered after this murder.
Wainwright ran a brushmaking business at 84 Whitechapel Road and also had a warehouse opposite at 215 Whitechapel Rd.
The body of Harriet Lane was burried by Wainwright in the warehouse yard at no. 215, one year later he dug up her remains to move them somewhere else, various reasons for this were given one being the fact that the stench of the body was beginning to drift from the warehouse into nearby Vine Court.
Looking at one of the Old Bailey maps, Vine Court was in the right triangular section of Streets between Whitechapel road and Fieldgate Street
http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/db/hri3/gis_20050804.jsp?mode=bailey&map=green&map_item_id=8258&tagtype=2&mclass=f
(Vine Street is the blue circle directly below the Whitechapel Rd yellow circle)
I think it looks like this section of Whitechapel road, up to the foundry were no's in the 200's???
Where no. 30 was I have no idea!
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5314
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 9:28 am: |
|
Hi Debra
Thanks for the map. I just now went to the LDS site and clicked along the street, starting with Henry Clayton. The numbers went along more or less consecutively, apart from an odd reversion to 70s from 90s (doubtless designed to confuse any invading Germans) but then I got lost in a maze of side roads and yards.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2868
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
|
Debra, Robert
I note on the map that Meggs Alm House is directly in the vicinity as well.
Wasn't this one of LFC's charities?
While I've got you both here.
Am I correct in remembering something about the birthplace of Thomas Hayne Cutbush being a bit out of whack?
Wasn't he born where uncle Charles was residing rather than where father and mother were living?
Something is niggling me about this. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5315
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
|
Hi AP
It was 10 Hurley Rd - see my post on this thread May 28th 2004. This seems to have been where TTC and Kate set up home, before TTC sodded off and Kate went back to Albert St.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2869
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 1:06 pm: |
|
Thanks Robert
but I'm still confused, as the year of their marriage TTC and Kate were living at Albert St. and then a year later for the birth of THC they are in Hurley Road, Lambeth... and then back again to Albert St.
As you say it probably had something to do with TTC doing the Lambeth walk... all the way to Oz. |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
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And the Bell Foundry practically backs on to Sion Square and we all know who used to live there , don't we. |
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