| Author |
Message |
    
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4307
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 9:26 am: | 
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My (very tentative) guess would be that some time between 1871 and 81 William Hine dies and leaves Clara a legacy. I think I found her in 1871 working at a large store in Buckinghamshire or somewhere (can't recall where I posted it now). Yet by 1881 she has income derived from property.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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Robert
I'm still reading all your posts, but my reading of the forname of Miss Baker is 'Prudence'. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4308
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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OK, thanks for that suggestion AP.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4310
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 1:14 pm: |
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I think that the Thomas Cutbush, 21, living as an adopted son at 1 Buck's Row in 1871, is probably the son of hairdresser Phil(l)ip Cutbush. I have found Phillip in 1861 and he has a son Thomas aged 10 with him, living at 2, Thomas Street, just off Buck's Row. By 1871 Phillip has moved, and there is no Thomas with him. I think he'd probably nipped round the corner to Buck's Row.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4313
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 4:58 am: |
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Re the Alfred Ernest Cutbush, 9, living as godson to John Lambert of 7 Buck's Row in 1871 : I think there has probably been a mistake on the actual census page, and that his name was actually Albert Ernest. Apart from the fact that there is an Albert Cutbush living at the same address 10 years later, there is also the fact that an Albert Ernest Cutbush was born March quarter 1862 at St George S.
As for the other godson living with Mr Lambert in 1871 - Alfred Cutbush aged 14 - I haven't yet found him in 1861.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Robert
as you post all this intersting detail I am attempting to search out more information but am having little luck as yet.
During the trawl I did find a Miss Matilda Cutbush involved in a 'fall down the stairs', but is this the same one you posted some time ago? (June 27th 1877)
I also found a Thomas Taylor, Instrument Maker, who was involved in a right old ding dong with his wife and mistress in 1865.
(Dec 30th 1865. search term 'worship street').
I'll keep trying though. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4315
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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Hi AP
I think I found the Matilda case.
The Taylor case was very funny! At least he had the grace not to marry his mistress till his wife was out of the way.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1910
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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Robert
Here is Alderman Venables back in the 1830’s.
This was to be the London Hospital, Roadside.
Source: Bell's Weekly Messenger, No.1839, Sunday, July 3, 1831.
[Fever Hospital, Whitechapel]
A committee has been formed for the purpose of opening a fever hospital in the vicinity of the Commercial road, Whitechapel; the London Fever Hospital at Battlebridge being found totally incapable of accommodating those persons who are generally, at this season of the year, affected in the dense population of Whitechapel, Spitalfields, and Bethnal green. The committee, we are happy to observe, consists, among others, of the following influential persons : Archbishop of Canterbury, Bishops of London and Llandaff, Lord Mayor, Aldermen Thompson and Venables, Drs. Birkbeck and S. Smith.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4316
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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Thanks for that, AP. It's nice to see Alderman Venables continuing the tradition of do-gooding!
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 7:01 am: |
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Hi Robert
Re Thomas Cutbush of Buck's Row, funnily enough I had just found him on 1881 census indexed under the name Outbush, I believe TTC's sister Sophia was indexed under this name too in one census I looked at.
Thomas OUTBUSH Head M Male 30 Whitechapel, Middlesex, England Civil Service Telegrapt Clerk
Betsy OUTBUSH Wife M Female 26 Gt Wakering, Essex, England
Thomas G. OUTBUSH Son Male 4 Bow, Middlesex, England
Philip OUTBUSH Son Male 2 Bow, Middlesex, England
Albert E. OUTBUSH Son Male 10 m Bow, Middlesex, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 1 Ordell Road
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341108
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0488 / 178
Page Number 48
Thomas has a son Albert E. too so there may be a connection to the Albert E. listed as a godson in 1871, brother's maybe?
I wonder why Thomas was adopted if Philip his father was still alive in 1871?
I also came across the missing christening record of Tom Flood Cutbush and Sophia's son Edward, indexed under Cutbrush; couldn't find one for TTC's father Thomas though.
EDWARD CUTBRUSH - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Christening: 23 JUL 1819 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England
Father Tom Flood Cutbush, mother Sophia.
I have rooted out a few strays under various spellings, but still trying to place them.
Debra
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4348
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 8:07 am: |
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Hi Debra
Thanks for all this, which I've only just seen. Yes, they're a bewildering lot!
I've tried to find a Cutbush-Lambert connection for 1861, but no luck so far.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4349
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 8:13 am: |
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There is a possible marriage between Lavina Lambert and George Thomas Cutbush, Bethnal Green, June quarter 1871.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4350
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 8:26 am: |
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According to their 1871 census return, these two were already married, and living at 25 William St, Lambeth, with two children!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1933
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Nice to hear from you again, Debra, and many thanks for all that info.
I've not been having much luck lately with the Cutbush clan, but hopefully that will change very soon. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1934
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
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Robert
a nice little view into the brainbox of Thomas Taylor Cutbush might be the strange case of 'The Walworth Murder', August 9th 1860.
It is a good period story anyway. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4354
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
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Yes AP, TTC strikes me as a man in a hurry. And I get a slight feeling that his father may have been a bit of a black sheep too.
PS I've emailed you.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 597
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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Hi A.P.
By "the Walworth Murder", you appear to be referring to the murder of Mrs. Emms on 9 August 1860, a case that involved the eventual trial and execution of one James Mullins, a former policeman (sergeant in K Division) who was retired on a pension, but was subsequently involved in a train robbery and then nearly killed a warder in prison (an thus forfeited his pension). It is an interesting crime, but what surprises me is the name you gave it. Granted I am a Yank and don't know London geography too well, Mrs. Emms lived at 9 Grove Road, Stepney. Is that in Walworth?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1935
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Yes, Robert, a herd of black sheep I think.
It was the 'let's get married quickly and then using your dowry take immediate passage to Australia' that caught my attention.
By the way I've caught the Cutbush clan rubbing shoulders with the Gladstone's in 1881 (March 23rd), and managed that by using the typo error in the census posted by Debra - Outbush rather than Cutbush.
Jeff
I only skipped through the case and it was the Australian connection I was interested in.
All I can say is that one must beware as during that period of the LVP the local councils were very fond of changing street names and then also ascribing those streets to different districts willy-nilly. So like in 1860 a street may have been in Stepney but by 1861 it might have moved to Walworth.
I have had enormous problems with regard to Kennington for that very reason.
But thanks for the further information. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1936
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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Robert
Gladstone? You better believe it:
William Gladstone CUTBUSH
____ - ____
Family 1 : Jessie CHANTLER
+Jessie
+Bertha
William Charles Lewis CUTBUSH
__
__|
| |__
|
|--William Gladstone CUTBUSH
|
| __
|__|
|__
7-- Jessie CHANTLER sp-William Gladstone CUTBUSH 8-- Jessie 9-- Gerald 9-- Roger 8-- Bertha 9-- Julia 9-- Patrick 9-- Marion 8-- William Charles Lewis CUTBUSH (1912)
William Charles Lewis CUTBUSH
26 Oct 1912 - ____
BIRTH: 26 Oct 1912
Father: William Gladstone CUTBUSH
Mother: Jessie CHANTLER
Family 1 : Beryl FERMOR
________________________
_William Gladstone CUTBUSH _|
| |________________________
|
|--William Charles Lewis CUTBUSH
|
| _Charles John CHANTLER _+
|_Jessie CHANTLER ___________|
|_Julia Ann GURR ________
It's probably the brandy but it is good fun anyway. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4355
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 6:07 pm: |
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Yes AP, I think there's some stuff in the Times to do with "the registrations" that mentions a political branch of Cutbushes. I wonder if they carried Gladstone bags.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1759
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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Well if they did you can be sure they "lost" the contents if they had relatives like this to dispose of!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1938
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 1:08 pm: |
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Robert
the context of the meeting I found where the Gladstone's were present was of course horticultural - those damn green fingers! - but it does show that contact did exist between certain members of both families... which is interesting.
Anyways I'm going to see if I can't dig a little more out of the rose beds.
Never got your email by the way. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4357
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
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Hi AP
I'll leave the rose-sniffers to you, then.
I've re-sent email.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1939
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 04, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
it appears that there are perhaps 15 contact points between the Gladstone's and the horticultural Cutbush clan. The PM's wife liked to bash out a tune on an organ - it wasn't always William Cutbush's but sometimes it might have been - and this was usually at a flower show at Crystal Palace, or the gardens of the RHS. They were called 'one shilling' or 'Five shilling' events.
Interesting is that William Gladstone was a founding member of a charity that shipped folk out to the colonies just at the time that TTC shipped.
As I said, it is probably the good brandy I have at the moment. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4359
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 6:38 am: |
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Interesting, AP, especially about the emigration.
By the way, I had thought that Hurley Road, which TTC put as THC's place of birth, didn't in fact exist. Well it may not have existed in the 1860s, but I think I've found it on the Booth site in Lambeth/Kennington.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1941
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
this is a problem, with the roads and streets I mean, they keep moving the goalposts.
Meanwhile a good read for you - just for a rare glimpse into the madness of the LVP - is 'Child Murdered By A Maniac' The Times, August 6th, 1827.
A good insight into how this sort of obsessional madness develops. |
Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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AP and Robert
Just thought I would say hello as I have finally become a registered member.
I wish I had something to tell you for my first official post, but sadly I have not.
I managed to get BMD lookups for Cutbushes in all Australian states from some very kind people the other day, nothing turned up as yet!
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
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Debra
I cannot tell you how pleased I am to see you appear when you should appear, instead of days later when we have lost your important posts.
I am so pleased.
Robert is busy tonight with personal stuff and I wish him well with that, but I'm quite sure he is just as pleased to see you appear as I am.
Welcome Debra.
Your contribution is always provoking and motive. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4361
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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Hi Debra
Pleased to see you registered at last!
AP, personal stuff going OK so far.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Great to see you have registered Debra.I too have read your posts and been impressed!
A Big Welcome!
Natalie
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 600
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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Hi all,
Good luck to you Debra, on fully joining the website.
I have straightened out the problem of the Walworth-Stepney murders of 1860.
The murder of Mrs. Mary Elmsley of 9 Grove Road, Stepney, occurred on 9 August 1860. Mrs. Elmsley was killed in her home. She was a well-to-do woman who lived on rental moneys from tenants. Her personality was difficult. She was found bludgeoned to death in her home. A former police officer (with a prison record) named James Mullins went to the police. He had been doing painting and bricklaying jobs for Mrs. Elmsley. He claimed he saw her rent collector, Walter Emms, put a mysterious package in an outhouse near Elmsley's home. The police, led by Police Detective Sgt. John Tanner, went with Mullins to the out house and found nothing. Mullins went over to a brick or stone in the wall and showed them the mysterious package. Tanner (who would build one of the Yard's best reputations in that middle period of existance) noted a point or two. He ordered the arrest of Emms. Mullins blathered about sharing the reward with the others, when he was furious to hear Tanner order Mullins arrest as well. Emms produced a thorough alibi for the time that Mrs. Elmsley was killed. Mullins did not. Also, Tanner noted that a special shoelace string had been used to tie up the mysterious package (which held various valuables owned by Mrs. Elmsely). The lace resembled the lace in Mullins shoe. Due to interesting circumstantial evidence, Mullins was convicted of the murder of Mrs. Elmsley and executed.
Now this Elmsley Murder Mystery was known (in 1860) as the Stepney Murder. But on 29 July 1860
(about a week before the murder of Mrs. Elmsley) occurred the Wadsworth Murder (or massacre). One William Godfrey Youngman had brought his girlfriend Mary Streeter to his family home on Manor Place, Wadsworth. He lived there with his parents and two brothers. His father worked as a tailor. Mary was spending the night with the Youngmans, and sleeping with the mother and youngest son in the front room. In the back was the father, the middle son, and William. Early in the morning the father left to go to his tailor shop. Sometime afterwards the neighbors were disturbed by cries and noise. They came in and found Mary Streeter, Mrs. Youngman, and the two younger brothers dying. William was standing covered in blood. His story was that his mother had gone mad, killed the others, and William had to kill her to save himself. He continued to use this argument all through his trial. However, it turned out he had taken out an insurance policy on the life of Mary Streeter (it was still possible to do that without having any interest in the subject's life at that time). William was convicted of the murders, and hanged on 4 September 1860 before nearly 30,000 people in Horsemonger Lane. In a final interview with his father he blamed his father for the massacre. [It is very probably that William Godfrey Youngman was insane, but it was not an argument used at his trial.]
Both cases are not unknown but they have never been the subject of full length book studies. However, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote essays on both cases (two of four he wrote on famous criminal cases) and questioned both verdicts because of their heavy dependence on circumstantial evidence. Doyle pointed out that while circumstantial evidence is useful it could sometimes lead to a totally different interpretation by looking at it from another angle. Of course, as a writer (especially of detective stories) Doyle was fully aware of the tricks you could use by twisting circumstances in a story. But if you want to read these accounts, see this site:
http://www.diogenes-club.com.
The essay on Youngman is "The Holocost of Manor Place". The one on Mullins is "The Debatable Case of Mrs. Elmsley."
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 10:40 am: |
|
AP, Robert, Natalie and Jeffrey
Just to say thanks very much for the welcome.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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Thanks Debra
it is so nice to have you on board.
But back to business.
I have found a very stimulating little case from 1888 which does provide useful linkage between the state of THC's mind and that of the Vampire of Sacramento, Richard Chase.
This is the case of Thomas James Uberfield who cut his own daughter's throat because he imagined that 'he had animals crawling about inside of him'.
September 14th 1888. The Times.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1909
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Hi all
Saw this advert in The Times - 9 November 1883
"Handsome Black Gelding for Sale, the property of a gentleman going abroad. Stands 16 hands, seven years old; make a good charger or lady's hack; broken to harness.
Apply to Mr. Cutbush, 512 Oxford Street, W."
Anyone know who this Cutbush was?
Chris
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1910
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 2:25 pm: |
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I don't know of this has been seen before - if so, apologies. It is dated 18 June 1867 and relates to an application by Luke Flood Cutbush and others for building permission for a factory premises at 272 Whitechapel Road. There is also mention of an Edward Cutbush, executor of the will of one Thomas Mears.
Chris
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1958
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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Chris
yes, the last one has been seen before. Robert found that some time ago when we were looking for connections between the Mears/Floods & Cutbush's.
My memory is dim but I think it probably had something to do with the new London Hospital.
But do not be dinted by that in your research purposes as the connection between the Mears and Floods and Cutbush's is still not fully understood, and anything is crucial to that understanding.
Regarding the Cutbush of Oxford Street, again from dim memory, I would imagine this to be the surveyor William Cutbush.
But interesting that he planned a trip abroad.
I'm looking to see if I can't add more.
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Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 1:10 pm: |
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AP
Have you ever come across the book
Police! / by Charles Tempest Clarkson and J. Hall Richardson. London, 1889.
written by a police officer of 33 years and a newspaper journalist of one of the London dailies.
I am just reading through it now and have found one reference to a Mr. Cutbush, who was in charge of the administritive dept. in Scotland Yard.
Has this book been looked at before?
It mentions Munro, Sir Charles Warren and many others.
Debra
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1963
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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No, Debra, I have not come across that one yet.
Nice find.
Judging by the author's career he must have some fine tales to tell.
Please keep us posted if you find anything more.
Not sure whether you know but Robert is having technical problems at the moment and might be out of touch for a week or so.
I'll see if I can't find out more about Clarkson and Richardson. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1964
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
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Debra
I’ve had a quick search around, and this is truly a nice find.
J. Hall Richardson was a very important and influential journalist employed by the Daily Telegraph for many years.
But it is the other one that interests me, the copper, Charles Tempest Clarkson, who was the Chief Constable of Wakefield in 1882, and in that year applied for the vacant post of ‘The Birmingham Chief Constableship’.
But he wasn’t the only applicant for the post, there was also a certain ‘The Chief Inspector of the Metropolitan Police Scotland Yard’ named Charles Henry Cutbush. (The Times. Jan 26th 1882).
Now I have never seen uncle Charles described as thus before, so I view this as a great find, Debra, and my hat is off to you.
I’m going to drink some quality brandy and think on this.
|
Debra J. Arif
Police Constable
Username: Dj
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 4:09 pm: |
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AP
Glad it led you somewhere! so there are more Cutbush entries to be found in The times!
The book really is a great read, not much in the way of detail on individuals, but a fascinating overview of the day to day business of the police force at this time, has a few snippets on the Whitechapel murders and mentions Leather Apron, and a snippet about a description being circulated by The Police Gazette on the lookout for a lunatic polish jew who had 'failed to report'
This is the only reference I have found to Mr. Cutbush so far;
>>No.4, and its neighbour, No5, Whitehall Place, are merely two of the highly
respectable three-storied buildings, formerly private houses, and now utilised
as offices. The premises communicate by torturous passages with the police office
in Scotland Yard at the rear, where Mr. Cutbush has charge of the administrative
department.He is entirely free of the ordinary routine work of a police station, no
charges being taken at Scotland Yard.<<
I'll get back to my book now and see if anything else turns up.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4378
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
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I seem to be online - don't ask me how.
Hallo all.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1772
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
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Noticed this tonight and really must congratulate you Debra,on what may be a significant find.
I certainly hadnt realised that he was "Chief Inspector Cutbush of Scotland Yard".A very important
police officer was Charles Cutbush by all accounts! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1965
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
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Welcome back Robert.
Yes, Debra, I believe that there are still many as yet untouched references in The Times with regard to the Cutbush clan.
They always seem to pop up when the name 'Cutbush' is not used in the search, as in this instance.
But then it is a time-consuming task. Just tonight I have probably read through 300 articles in an attempt to gain some understanding into the sentencing policy employed in THC's case... but if you don't read then you won't understand what was in the minds of the good folk who sentenced him to life in Broadmoor.
I just know that somewhere in The Times is the little key that will unlock the door.
Keep looking, everywhere, you just oiled the lock. |
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 6:38 pm: |
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Thanks Natalie, it's nice when people appreciate your efforts and don't accuse you of just raking through other people's dirty laundry!
Hi Robert,I wondered where you had gone!
I looked up the Reg. v Cutbush (1867) case again, I can't remember what you said you eventually found on it, but I thought I would post what I did find, I don't know if it's anything new or not, I can't remember vagrancy being mentioned before
Debra
>>A case upon the statute has been decided by the Court of Queen's Bench, that of
Reg.v.Cutbush and another, Justices of Maidstone (36L.J.(N.S.) M.C.70; 16 Law T., N. S.
282) wherein the justices had commited a person brought before them charged with several offences
under the Vagrant Act, 5 Geo, 4,c,83,s,4, for one offence for three months, and for a subsequent
offence to an additional term of three months, do commence at the expiration of the first term, " to which
he has this day been adjudged by us the said justices"
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4380
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
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Thanks Debra. I don't think I had the vagrancy angle.
This police book is interesting.
AP, I think it was Debra who first found the 1867 article - when she wasn't laundry-raking!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1966
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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The Vagrant Act was I think used to control the activities of lunatics at large in society before the various Lunacy Acts came into force?
Could be another interesting find from Debra. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1969
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
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4 Whitehall Place is the place where government and police met, the place where decisions made in parliament were carried out by the police.
It was also the place where much forgery and skull-duggery could take place, a place where a tired out old chief inspector could forge his references and find a nice nest in Birmingham or elsewhere.
Unless he got caught and then had to look after a load of old lodging houses in Whitechapel, and advertise in The Times for folk to claim their lost five pound notes and watches.
In 1882 Charles Henry Cutbush was at the apex of his career in Scotland Yard, right on the pulse of the nation's policing... very much the boss.
A few years later he is very much divisional, not in charge of Scotland Yard but instead a few old scummy yards around Whitechapel where some scummy whores get themselves killed while he looks for the owners of scummy five pound notes found in the scummy streets.
In 1882 he is almost the Chief Constable of Birmingham and then five years later he is in lost and found? |
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 8:20 am: |
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This is just a thought that has occured to me, while I was digging up more on Reg. v Cutbush (1867)
The original case in 1866 involved frederick Paine as we know, and this is a bit about his sentencing;
>>It appeared from affidavits that Paine was charged before the justices, on the 10th of Dec 1866
with having obscenely exposed his person on the 6th of December 1866; To this charge he pleaded guilty, and he was remanded;
and on the 15th December he was chrarged with, and pleaded guilty to, three other similar.....The justices adjudged him to be imprisoned
in Maidstone house of correction on each of the four charges for three calendar months, with hard labour,
under the vagrant Act...<<
Do you think that Cutbush was one of the maidstone magistrates who originally imposed this sentencing ( see below) and that Reg. v Cutbush is the review of the sentencing by The Queens Bench division?
>>The Queen v. Cutbush and another
Queen's bench division QB
Cockburn, C.J., Blackburn and Lush, JJ
1867 April 26
Summary Convictions--Justices, Jurisdiction of, in Petty Sessions--Cumulative Sentences, under 11 & 12 Vict. c. 43, s. 25--7 & 8 Geo4, c.28,s.10
This was a ruling calling on two justices of the borough of Maidstone to shew cause why a writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum
should not issue to the keeper of the house of correction of the borough
to bring up the body of Frederick Paine; and why, in the event of the rule being made absolute, paine should not be discharged out ofcustody, without the issuing
of such writ, and without being brought up personally before the court.<<
I don't know if this makes sense, just a thought!
Debra
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1773
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 3:50 pm: |
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Interesting research here AP and Debra.
Sounds as though this "habit" was an integral part of being a "Cutbush" although it seemed to have skipped alternate generations.
Returning to the apparent demotion of Charles Cutbush he had probably been having psychotic episodes by then and this was how his employers tried to deal with such intermitent problems.
As I remember,AP,the Sun articles were lead full page features in the SUN newspaper and appeared in 1884 and cited Thomas Cutbush as the Ripper. The Sun being a sort of cross between the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Express in those days and a worried Home Secretary seems to have sought police assurance about the role of Cutbush.
Machnaghten then scribed the famous memorandum
which fell short of an outright rebuttal but instead suggested Druitt 1st,Kosminski 2nd and Ostrog 3rd as "more likely" to have been the ripper!
Meanwhile Charles Cutbush seems to have had delusions about being hounded by Papist/Fenians so finalised things by shooting himself in the head in 1896.
"Nephew" Cutbush died in Broadmoor ofcourse in 1903.
Sounds a bit like the" missing link" this Cutbush factor.The Cutbush clan dont seem to have been short of cash but one or two of them seem to have been short of a few shillings for several generations!
Anyway they do seem to have played a significant
role in the whole business of JtR for numbers of reasons....
Natalie
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1972
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Thanks for your positive comments, Natalie.
I think the Cutbush thread shows that it is always better to dig than fight.
On that subject I have found a pimp who stabbed his whore 21 times - she died, obviously -because she wasn't earning enough money to support his drinking habits.
The inquest was conducted by our old mate, Wynne E Baxter, in 1900, but the pimp was a 'ticket of leave' man, which means he had previous convictions for similar offences.
A certain William Burrett, who really should be looked at. |
