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Message |
    
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 6:28 pm: |       |
Hi all
I don't know if this has been posted before but I have tracked down Thomas Cutbush in the 1871 census (see copy below)
Address:
14 Albert Street, St Mary Newington
Head:
John L Hayne aged 61 born Oxfordshire - Furniture Dealer
Wife;
Anne Hayne aged 65 born Oxfordshire
Visitor:
Kate Hayne aged 26 born Phildelphia, N.America (British subject) - Clerk's Wife
Grandson (i.e. of head of household)
Thomas Cutbush aged 5 born Kenington (sic)
Servant;
Sarah Green aged 18 born Oxfordshire - Domestic servant
Lodgers:
John Kirk aged 23 born Kegworth, Leicestershire - Journeyman
George Kirk aged 17 born Kegworth - Journeyman
Interesting to note some variances:
Kate's surname is given as Hayne
We are told she is a "clerk's wife"
Thomas' place of birth is listed as "Kenington" - I thought this may be a badly written rendition of Newington but the first letter is definitely a "K"
Hope this helps
Chris
Copy of part of entry:
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2348
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 2:58 am: | |
Great stuff, Chris. If Kate was a visitor, maybe she was living at Kennington at the time?
I found in the 1901 census at Broadmoor a TC, age 35, occupation commercial clerk, retired, born London Kennington. I'd thought that was Thomas, but if the 1901 intials have also been reversed, then I got the wrong one!
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1141
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 8:53 am: | |
I have managed to find Kate Cutbush in the 1901 census when she was living with her sister Clara Hayne.
16 Durand Gardens, Brixton, London
Head:
Clara E Hayne aged 61 born Wallington, Oxfordshire - Living on own means
Sister:
Kate Cutbush aged 57 born America (British subject) - Manageress (China and Glass) - Widowed
Boarder:
Joseph Petrolei aged 55 born Italy (Foreign subject) - Litho artist
Image below:
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1142
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 9:13 am: | |
Just one more thing which I found in my notes - a copy of the entry for the death of Thomas in 1903. It is registered in Easthampstead in Berkshire.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1144
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:33 am: | |
Interesting Charles Cutbush is listed in the 1871 census under the spelling of CULBURT. For once this is not a copying error into the index. I have looked at original page (copy below) and it has been written in the original as Culburt. However all the other details - age, place of birth, family details etc - make it clear this is Charles Cutbush
Address:
10 North Street, Westminster
Head:
Charles Culburt aged 27 born Ashford, Kent - Police sergeant
Wife:
Ann Culburt aged 27 born Romney, Kent
Children:
Amelia aged 3 born Westminster
Ellen aged 2 months born Westminster
(Message edited by Chris on April 14, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1145
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
Trying to trace the missing father of Thaomas Cutbush, I took as a starting point that as Charles Cutbush was his paternal uncle and in 1871 was 27 and born in Ashford, Kent. The missing father should have the following data:
1) Surname Cutbush
2) probably born in Ashford, kent if the family lived there for any length of time
3) Be of an age to be a sibling to 27 year old Charles.
There is only one record that fulfils all these points, however the person in question is listed as unmarried. By this point Kate Cutbush is listed as married and Thomas was 5 years old.
First, the details of the person in question:
Address:
54 Corunna Road, Battersea, London
Head of household:
John Tevelean aged 30 - Warder (of what type is not specified)
Lodger:
Robert Cutbush aged 24 born Ashford, Kent - Cellarman
It is possible of course, if this is Thomas' father that he and Kate did not marry. Or he may be another brother to Charles and Thomas' father.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1146
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 11:12 am: | |
the birth of the Robert Cutbush menitoned above was registered in the 2nd quarter of 1847 at east Ashford, Kent under the names Robert Henry Cutbush
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2349
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
Again, great stuff Chris. I can't help but think that Mr Petrolei was something more than a lodger, as he followed on to the next house.
I found for the July-September quarter 1864 a marriage for Thomas Taylor Cutbush, Newington, 1d 300. There is a marriage for a Kate Hayne, Newington, 1d 300, same quarter same year. Or rather, I think it's 1d 300 - the writing is rather faint.
I'm sorry I can't send this in by picture, but I do not have the technical know-how and my nephew is away at the moment.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1148
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 1:11 pm: | |
Hi Robert
very well done - I'm sure that is the marriage we are looking for. Indeed it does show in 3rd Quarter of 1864 that Thomas Cutbush married Kate Hayne. Both have the same register details:
Newington Volume 1a Page 300
Copies are below - well done again!!
Chris
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2350
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 1:36 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Thanks very much. If you think this is the one, then that's good enough for me.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Im sure it is - just to say the reference should read 1d 300 and not 1a 300
:-)
C
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2360
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 6:13 am: | |
Hi all
Kate was listed as a widow in 1881, but was calling herself by her maiden name in 1871. So I searched the death records for 1866 - 1881, but could not find a Thomas Cutbush who would have been the right age to be Kate's husband and Charles's brother.
The International Genealogical Index on the LDS site has a record of a Thomas Taylor Cutbush being Christened 9th Oct 1844 at Saint Andrew Enfield with a birthdate of 24 July. The trouble is, his parents are listed as Thomas and Ann, and we know Supt Charles's mother was called Amelia.
I checked the July-September births for 1844, and there was a Thomas Taylor Cutbush in that quarter, but registered at Edmonton, not Ashfield! (111 138(?))
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2361
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 6:16 am: | |
Sorry that should read "registered at Edmonton, not Ashford".
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1159
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 8:22 am: | |
Hi Robert
Many thanks for that info. I have looked in the 1871 data and have only found one Thomas T Cutbush (although his name was listed in the index as CUSTUTH!) but he is listed as married to another woman (my best guess for her name is Esther as it is incredibly difficult to read) and having two children by her.
Also he is listed as a carpenter and Kate was listed at one stage as a "clerk's wife."
For what it's worth the family details are:
Address:
26 Henley Terrace, Sadler Road, Deptford
Head:
Thomas T Cutbush aged 26 born St Pancras - Carpenter
Wife;
Esther? Cutbush aged 26 born St Pancras
Children:
John W aged 6 born St Pancras
Frederick aged 3 months born Deptford
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2362
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 11:02 am: | |
Hi Chris
Thanks for that. Well, there was a story that he contracted a bigamous marriage, so who knows?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2363
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 12:01 pm: | |
Looking at the IGI again, there was a marriage in St Andrew Enfield 25 Feb 1836 between Thomas Cutbush and Ann Taylor. The 'Taylor' part would fit in with the idea of taking the wife's maiden name and using it as the son's second name (as with 'Hayne'). Maybe these two were young Thomas Cutbush's grandparents?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1039
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 1:23 pm: | |
My congratulations to the pair of you for tracking all this important detail down.
I'm having a problem following some of the info as it goes off my screen and I keep losing track.
Is there anything one can do about that?
I suppose I'd be best printing it all out? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Hi AP
If you load up the thread, minimise it, load it up again and click on an archived section and in turn minimise that, etc, you should be able to skip from one section to another by minimising and restoring.
I'm just wondering whether Supt Cutbush was, say, a cousin rather than a brother of Tom's father. If that was the relationship, Tom might still call him "Uncle Charles", and Macnaghten would thus call Tom a nephew. Is that possible?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2365
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 7:09 am: | |
Hi all
I think I've found Young Tom in the clink. He'd been mistranscribed as "Thomas Culberth", but the image clearly shows Thomas Cutbush.
He's at Islington, age 27, occupation clerk, born Kensington. "Kensington" for "Kennington" I can understand. Re the age, I think his age was given as 27 in the report of court proceedings posted by RJ Palmer. It's interesting that he should be mistranscribed as "Culberth" because that's very similar to a variation Chris found for Charles Cutbush - only there the actual census form contained the variation (I think it was 1871).
Sorry again that I do not yet know how to send in the census image.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 9:33 am: | |
Hi Robert
Interesting find!
the details are:
Her Majesty's Prison,Holloway, Islington
Thomas Cutbush aged 27 born Kensington - Clerk
Prisoner
Single
The releavnt part of the image is below:
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 9:43 am: | |
Yes, a great find indeed, Robert.
By my reckoning Thomas would have been 25 at his original sentencing, but as I did say, it would not surprise me at all to learn that he floated for a while within the prison system before finally arriving at Broadmoor. As I pointed out this still happens today.
Good bit of tracking, Robert. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2367
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:19 am: | |
Thanks folks, and thanks for that image, Chris. My nephew's just got back, so maybe he'll show me how to work this annoying machine.
According to the "London Times" report for 24 March, on the "Curious Thought" thread, Aunt Clara said that Tom was sent to the Peckham House Lunatic Asylum. So if this is our Tom, it means that he was taken from an asylum and placed in an ordinary prison, with no mention of lunacy in the infirmity column - which is weird but, as AP says, not unknown.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
Robert
the scenario I have always mapped out in my mind regarding young Thomas is that he would have been committed to an institution by his own family - or sent elsewhere out of Whitechapel, the Seaside Home for instance - shortly after the death of MJK; and this most likely would have been with the nodding consent of the MPF through the good services of uncle Charles. Then at some point he would have been transferred to more secure institutions, oe even less secure, depending on his adaptation to life 'inside'.
Obviously at the point of his escape from such an institution, combined with his subsequent attacks on women with a knife, a more serious attitude was taken by the MPF, patently expressed in the desire to have him sentenced quickly at Her Majesty's Pleasure - remember Colicitt was only fined for exactly the same offence - and so young Thomas eventually arrived in Broadmoor.
There is no doubt in my mind that this is exactly what happened, and any confirmation of this through the discovery of new records is immensely important.
It is important to note that the Cutbush family realised they had a problem on their hands with young Thomas in the early days - of 1888? - and subsequently had him banged up... and then when he escaped the MPF took over the case.
As we know, when the case eventually caught the attention of the press, uncle Charles shot himself.
Keep going, Robert. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 4:06 pm: | |
Hi AP
Well, I'm interested by Macnaghten's remark that it was found impossible to ascertain his movements on the nights of the murders. If he's referring to enquiries made in 1891, then they couldn't have hoped to ascertain his movements after all that time. It makes me wonder whether enquiries - perhaps by Tom's family - had been conducted in 1888.
Obviously, I would like to know what happened to Tom's father. Also, I'd like to try to disentangle the family history around the 1830s/40s. And then there's Mr Petrolei. What exactly was he to Kate?
I don't know whether it's possible to search any extant Peckham House records to see how often Tom was there, and when.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:51 pm: | |
Hi all
I now have the facility to interrogate the 1901 census data directly and run queries on a particular name. As a test I have run this for the name Cutbush which has produced 231 returns i.e. all the Cutbushes in the country at the time of 1901 census.
The fields available on this query are:
Forenames Lastname Age PRO Age Year Born Where Born Census Place Census County Occupation Piece RG13/ Folio
I have saved the results as Excel, text tab delimited and Gedcom formats
If this would be of any use to anyone let me know and I will mail it
Chris
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