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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:59 pm: |       |
Thought the bit below might be of interest regarding the origin of the surname. This is from "The Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames" by Charles Bardsley.
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 6:43 pm: | |
Thanks, Chris, I will email you - though I'm afraid you rather left me behind with all that format stuff!
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1173
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
Hi Robert
I have mailed you will a brief rundown on the formats- let me know which and I will send;-)
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2381
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 9:18 am: | |
Hi Chris
I have emailed you.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 1:13 pm: | |
Robert, Chris
I don't suppose either of you have missed it, but just in case, a poster on the thread 'New Suspect' is flagging up an as yet unamed individual for the role of JtR who was admitted to Holloway in 1891.
I think this must be Thomas Cutbush? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2382
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 2:31 pm: | |
Hi AP
I saw it, but unfortunately I do not have the relevant magazine. If it is Tom who's meant, then he wasn't a new suspect in 1997. Was there a Holloway Asylum, as opposed to Prison?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Holloway came under the Islington district. I have looked at the listing of enumeration districts for 1891 and they list the following institutions:
Aged Pilgrims Asylum
HM Prison Holloway
Holborn Union Workhouse Infirmary
Islington Workhouse
St Mary Islington parish Workhouse
St Mary Islington Workhouse Infirmary
North London Home for Aged Christian men and Women
The only asylum listed would not apply to Tom so I think it must have been Holloway Prison he was in
Chris |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 596
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 2:57 pm: | |
Hello
I have the article from the July 2003, Ripperana here before me and the suspect is one Newland Francis Forrester Smith. The 'suspect' was an insane barrister. The reader is then asked to 'see Ripperana 24' which I will try to find.
So there it is, the case is solved and we can all clean out our desks and go home.
The case has been solved since 1997 according to Mr. Carey. To think we have been wasting all this time. Seriously, I will try to find the relevant issue.
All The Best
Gary |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2384
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
Thanks Chris and Gary.
Insane barrister, eh? Is there such a thing, Gary?
Robert |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 597
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 3:25 pm: | |
Hi Robert
We are all insane based on my interactions with others of my ilk.
All The best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 598
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Hi All
I won't disclose anything more without written permission from Nick Warren and Ripperana.
Best
Gary |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Gary
Just send them some false beards and Burberry deer stalkers, they'll be all right then with copyright. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 599
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 4:31 pm: | |
Hi AP
I have followed your sage advice.
Thanks AP |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 5:32 pm: | |
Here are his details from 1881:
1881
16 Macaulay Road, Clapham, Surrey
Head;
Henry W Smith aged 53 born Chipping Sodbury, Gloucs - Clergyman Church of England without cure of souls
Wife:
Sarah A Smith aged 50 born Martock, Somerset
Children:
Ernest C C aged 19 born Clifton, Gloucs - Commercial Clerk
Newland F F aged 17 born Cinderford, Gloucs - Undergraduate London University
Selina A H aged 15 born Spalding, Lincs
Mary E I S aged 13 born Oakhill, Somerset
Emily M M aged 11 born Oakhill
Thomas E E aged 9 born Showell, Isle of Wight
Boarders:
Herbert G Stewart aged 23 born Little Stukeley, Huntingdon
Louisa Way aged 21 born India
Rupert Way aged 19 born India
Montague D Press aged 18 born Clapham
Servant:
Annie Hiscox aged 19 born Stoke Lane, Somerset |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2386
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 12:51 pm: | |
Hi all
I had thought that Young Tom's grandfather might very well have been the Thomas Cutbush who married Ann Taylor at Enfield in 1836, their son Thomas Taylor arriving in 1844 and growing up to marry Kate Hayne.
However, according to Pallot's marriage index there was another marriage at Enfield between a Thomas Cutbush and an Ann Taylor - thirty years before, in 1806.
I suppose that Young Tom's grandfather may have been the 1806 Thomas, as this couple too may have called one of their sons Thomas Taylor. In fact, Young Tom's father may have been the Thomas Cutbush who died Edmonton 1866, aged 59.
Either way, I'm jiggered if I can see how Supt Cutbush fits into it all!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 2:03 pm: | |
I'm jiggered too, Robert.
I think someone is going to have to sit down with all this on paper and work through it to a conclusion. That's not me!
I do sometimes wonder whether the Cutbush lot on the Ancestry boards might be able to help?
I'm afraid when it comes to logic and reckoning I'm a complete dud.
Somehow I have always felt that we have never had the full picture regarding the Hayne/Cutbush family connections, and have long suspected an incestous relationship to be the root cause for this largely hidden family background.
Something smells, and it aint Joe's old cod. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1185
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 6:07 pm: | |
Re my post on 17 April about Thomas T Cutbush and his wife, possibly Esther.
I have looked closely at the sourve data again and it is not Thomas T but Thomas F Cutbush. In fact he was a Thomas Frederick Cutbush and he married Esther Mary Owens in Mrach 1870 at Greenwich
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2387
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 6:35 pm: | |
Thanks Chris. I've been searching the births from 1837 onwards for a Thomas Cutbush born Ashford. I've got to the mid 40s and not a sausage.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1186
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 6:38 pm: | |
Hi AP and Robert
I agree that all these separate messages can get confusing. I have some software called GenePro which generates family trees. I have put in the data from the posts in this threads and produced the following which I hope is helpful
Chris
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2388
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 6:49 pm: | |
Wow, Chris, thanks! That brings it all together in an easy-to-read, orderly layout.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 2:13 pm: | |
Yes, Chris, that is absolutely fantastic.
At last I can get to grips with this family.
I'm going to study this for hours, possibly with several glasses of good brandy.
I don't suppose there is anyway of checking - using this method - if there is any family connection between the other Cutbush copper in London to see if they are related in some manner or form?
This is great progress, Chris and Robert, and you both have my profound thanks. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2390
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 6:38 pm: | |
Hi AP
Harrietsham, where the other Charles Cutbush was born, is quite close to Ashford. I wouldn't mind betting that there was a connection, but I've no idea what it may have been.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2391
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 4:27 am: | |
The American marriage connection may have gone way back, for in the quarter July-September 1838 at Ticehurst we have a George Cutbush getting married. There were eight names on the page, but one of these was Philadelphia Smith.
Interesting that Thomas died at Easthampstead, because in July-September 1899 a Charles Cutbush got married there.
Robert |
D G Cornelius
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 12:10 am: | |
Dear Assistant Commissioners Linford and Scott:
Royal Holloway Asylum had no connection with the prison; it was instead a posh private sanitarium located in Egham, Surrey. Quoting Harriet Richardson, ed., English Hospitals 1660-1948 (London: RCHME, 1998), p. 169:
"Although a greater degree of ornament might be expected in private asylums than in pauper asylums, the Royal Holloway Sanatorium surpasses all expectations. Founded by Thomas Holloway, of Holloway's Pills fame, the asylum was founded for the 'unsuccessful of the middle classes', and sumptuous apartments with lavish decoration were provided for their accommodation."
It would have been unlikely for a mentally disturbed individual to have been committed to a criminal prison at that late date; even the criminally insane were provided separate institutions [most notably Broadmoor] from mid-century.
As an unsuccessful member of the middle class, I would love to spend a few years in a place such as RHA, but unfortunately it and its like are generally not admitting. I am coincidentally reading London Orbital by Iain Sinclair [who has written much about Ripperland], wherein he discusses the post-Thatcherian transformation of public asyla into sumptuous homes for the successful new upper class.
Respects,
D G Cornelius} |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1189
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 8:59 am: | |
I think the confusion here arises from the origian of the name. When I said there was no asylum in Holloway, I meant there was no such institution listed in that part of London, where Cutbush was listed in prison. The Holloway asylum has nothing to do with that part of London but was named after Thomas Holloway and was actually located at Virginia Water in Surrey.
Here is somewhat lengthy history of the building:
HOLLOWAY SANATORIUM, VIRGINIA WATER, SURREY. 1871-1885.
The sanatorium is a result of the munificence of Thomas Holloway, a manufacturer and purveyor of patent pills, potions and ointments. With no family of his own he decided to utilise some of his vast fortune in building a model sanatorium for the insane of the middle classes. The final cost to Holloway, including an endowment of £50,000 was some £350,000.
The architects who responded to the invitation to submit designs for the asylum were Crossland, Salomon & Jones; Alfred Smith; T Roger Smith; R Phenie Spiers; John P Seddon; J S Quilter; T H Watson; E W Godwin, who submitted two designs; F & H Francis and T C Hine.
Crossland, Salomon & Jones were awarded the first premium of £200; Alfred Smith the second premium of £100; all the others received £50 for their trouble, with the exception of Thomas C Hine, a Nottingham architect, who received only £25: possibly he had not actually been invited to submit a plan. The moneys were paid out in July 1872, and in the Autumn the plans were placed on exhibition in a Regent Street gallery.
Work on the building had apparently begun by the Spring of 1873 when a clerk of works was appointed. Crossland received his first commission payment of £300 on 2nd March 1874. Once started Holloway was determined that building should go forward apace. When he decided on the use of Portland stone in place of ornamental bricks work was not allowed to stand, Crossland had to set aside all his carefully planned working and detail drawings, hurriedly drawing up alternatives as they were required by the masons.
There would be a very large workforce on the site, it is recorded in connection with Holloway College that there were at times as many as 900 masons employed. The building accounts of the sanatorium include costs of advertising for masons, not only locally in Surrey and Berkshire, but as far afield as Birmingham and Manchester.
By the time the institution was ready to admit patients new regulations had come into force and Crossland had to revise the internal arrangements to comply with the new safety regulations. Interior decoration was lavish: the great hall was decorated by J Moyr Smith of Putney at a cost of £400.
A contemporary account of the sanatorium is of interest, it is probable that much of the content came from Crossland and Holloway: the latter must have been pleased with the report for he subsequently sent a monetary gift to the author.
On alighting at the Virginia Water Station of the London and South Western Railway the traveller becomes aware of a tall tower recalling to his mind the outline of the famous belfry tower of Ypres. In guide-books the magnificent tower of Les Halles in the old Flemish town which is said to have given its name to "diaper" fabrics, is comically referred to as "reminding one of the Victoria Tower, Westminster." As a matter of fact the Ypres tower is of very fine thirteenth-century work and has served as a model for many towers of later construction, including that of the Holloway Sanatorium. The chief difference between the latter and its prototype is that it is of red brick with stone dressing, while the ancient tower which looks down on the grave of Jansenius is of stone throughout. Built on the top of a slight eminence the Holloway Sanatorium, with its tower standing in pleasure grounds 22 acres in extent, is a conspicuous object in the richly-wooded country which inspired Sir John Denham with some of his finest verses. Commenced some seven years ago by Mr Thomas Holloway, the Sanatorium for Curable Cases of Mental Disease was originally intended by the founder as a gift to the nation, perfect and complete as it stood. Mr Holloway has resolved not only to make a gift of the building, but to invest an additional 50,000l. as an endowment, which will raise the cost of the whole foundation to 350,000l. The purpose for which it is designed is clearly defined by the founder to be the succour of persons of the middle-class afflicted with mental disease. In selecting this object he has been guided by the consideration that rich people so unfortunate as to suffer from mental disease need no monetary assistance; and the poor in a similar mental condition are already cared for in public asylums. Put broadly, the scope of the Holloway Sanatorium includes the doctor, lawyer, artist, clerk or any professional bread-winner whose work cannot, like an ordinary business, be carried on by deputy, and whose income ceases absolutely when he is unable to work. This definition has not been arrived at without due care and ample investigation. Mr George Martin, at the instance of Mr Holloway, and sometimes accompanying him, has visited the principal establishments for the cure of mental disease in Europe and America, and the opinion has been gradually formed that many curable cases among the middle class are allowed to become uncurable from lack of means or opportunity to secure proper treatment. Slight cerebal attacks, if dealt with promptly, may, it is well known, be cured, and a recurrence of them guarded against with considerable success, while if neglected they increase in frequency, until the patient becomes entirely incapacitated from pursuing his calling. It is simply as a curative institution that the handsome structure at Virginia Water has been founded, one of the conditions being that no patient will be allowed to remain more than twelve months. By this regulation it will be prevented from becoming an asylum and losing its more important character. It was, as already stated, originally intended to be an entirely self-supporting institution, but Mr Holloway has finally determined to help it with an endowment.
The extremely handsome appearance of the exterior is amply borne out by the interior decorations and arrangement of the building, which when furnished will be ready at once to receive patients. Built of red brick, dressed with stone, in the style called indifferently Tudor or Early English Renaissance, the effect of the structure is highly creditable to the Architect, Mr W. H. Crossland, whose handsome town hall at Rochdale proves him a worthy pupil of Sir Gilbert Scott. The front elevation recalls in its general features some of the finer models of the Tudor period, such as Littlecote built before the stern dignity of the Gothic had quite yielded to the grace of the Renaissance. The interior decorations have been designed and executed by various hands, under the direction of Mr George Martin. With the exception of the massive grey marble top of the balustrade, the whole of the entrance hall and staircase is painted and gilt over the stone. This was an afterthought of kindness towards the persons for whom the building is intended, and four hundred of whom it is planned to accommodate. Cold grey columns and walls even if enlivened by sculpture, would, it is thought, sit heavily on a mind diseased, and it was resolved to make the principal apartments one blaze of gold and colour. The hall is accordingly lavishly decorated with figures and designs arabesque and grotesque, the latter displaying almost inexhaustible fertility of invention. If it be sound doctrine that surfaces of wood or stone should be gilt or painted, as the late Mr William Burges ARA., and some other authorities have more or less rigidly maintained, the rich decorations of the Holloway Sanatorium are correct enough. They are certainly gorgeous as well as cheerful and ingenious. The great lecture or recreation hall is remarkable for a splendid gilded roof, and for a profusion of gilding and other decorative work on the walls and behind the platform - the latter being very remarkable. Portraits of distinguished persons by Mr Giradot and other artists form part of the decoration scheme, and add interest to it. In the refectory also - a splendid apartment - the adornments consist of a series of paintings in the style of Watteau forming a frieze, above which are smaller groups in lunettes. Here the scheme of ornament, if hardly so coherent as in the hall, has the advantage aimed at throughout this unique building. Dominated by the idea that a cultivated person whose mind is affected will never be cured if surrounded by vulgar idiots or grim accessories, Mr Martin has endeavoured to introduce as many objects as possible to awake and stimulate the trained intelligence for the moment over-strained. In the smaller but still ample parlours and living rooms the same idea of cheerfulness and suggestiveness is carried out. It is endeavoured above all things to avoid leaving a dimmed intelligence opposite to a blank wall. All the internal arrangements are admirably planned as well for maintaining general health as for isolating special cases of disease, for providing that attendants shall live unobtrusively close to the patients confided to their charge and for conveying an idea of freedom combined with active surveillance. The kithcen is a wonder, and deserves a visit from all interested in the mystery of cooking food for five hundred or more persons at once. To make all complete there is a model laundry in an entirely separate building and pretty red brick houses have been built for such of the staff of the establishment as are not obliged to sleep in the main building. Just of late a change has been made in the original plan by which it was contemplated to use the immense and beautifully decorated hall as a place of worship; but Mr Holloway has decided on building a distinct chapel, the designs for which have been prepared by Mr Crossland. Thousands of shrubs and young trees already fill the pleasure grounds. Almost every known hardy variety is represented. Through those well-planted shrubberies winding walks conduct to pleasant points of view and back to an extensive terrace on which patients may sit or promenade, and enjoy the sunshine and pure air.
Crossland received commission of £7,620; it had been agreed at the start that he would charge no travelling expenses for himself or his staff. The first clerk of works was J P Featherstone who had been a tenant farmer under Holloway. He was appointed in April 1873 and resigned on 24th December 1876.
Among the contractors were:
Masons Sharpington & Cole, London.
Joiner W H Lascelles, Finsbury.
Paving George Burfoot, Windsor.
Lead Pontifex & Wood, London.
Heating Wilson W Phipson.
Landscaping J Gibson, Battersea.
Furnishings J D Richards, London.
Ancillary works included the gas works at a cost of £1,950, six cottages and a workshop, and the sewage works which were constructed by John Thompson of Peterborough at a cost of £1,500.
The building, now much dilapidated, has fallen on hard times: its only use in recent times a location for filming. It has recently been sold and is expected to be converted to residential use.
For further details of the architect (William Henry Crossland)see
http://homepage.eircom.net/~lawedd/index.htm
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2392
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:13 am: | |
Thanks Chris and D.G. Cornelius. It would be interesting to hear more on this mad barrister theory.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2485
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
Hi all
I have now received copies of three certificates concerning Cutbushes. I know my eyes are bad - I visited the optician only today - but honestly, some of the writing on these is as bad as mine! If anyone wants copies run off, let me know and I'll post by snailmail.
BIRTH
1865 Registration district Lambeth
Sub-district of Lambeth
County of Surrey
On 29th of June 1865 at 10 Hurley Rd
Thomas Hayne, a boy
Father, Thomas Taylor Cutbush
Mother, Kate Cutbush formerly Hayne
Father's occupation, mercantile clerk
Informant, Thomas T Cutbush, father, 10 Hurley Rd, Lambeth
Registered 11th July 1865
MARRIAGE
At the parish church, St Mary Newington, Surrey
On 29th Sept 1864
Thomas Taylor Cutbush bachelor and Kate Hayne spinster
Ages : both written words, both bloody illegible
Occupation of groom, mercantile clerk
Residence of groom, Albert St
Rersidence of bride, the same
Father of groom : Thomas Cutbush
Father of bride : John Lewis Hayne
Father of groom occupation, plumber
Father of bride occupation, broker
Witnesses W. Williams
Jane (illegible)
BIRTH
Registration district West Ashford
Sub-district Ashford
County of Kent
On 5th January 1844 at High St, Ashford
Charles, a boy
Father, Charles Cutbush
Mother, Amerlia Cutbush formerly (illegible)
Father's occupation (illegible)
Informant Amelia Cutbush, mother, High St, Ashford
Registered 3rd Feb 1844
Thomas Taylor seems to have lived with Kate and her parents prior to marrying her. After his death, or after they split up, Kate seems to have returned to her parents' house.
Charles Cutbush's certificate makes no mention of a middle name "Henry".
Thomas Taylor Cutbush and Charles (Henry) Cutbush seem to have had different fathers.
My best guess as to Thomas Taylor's and Kate's ages is that they were both twenty.
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 4:49 pm: | |
My thanks and congratulations, Robert.
Three good stones turned up to reveal what is beneath. Placing these folks in historical fact and circumstance is vital.
Your failing eyesight matches my addled brain, for I do not seem able to grasp simple family relationships anymore... although I am quite able to deal with vastly complicated stuff, the simple and logical elude me.
Anyways, well done my dear chap. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2488
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 5:25 pm: | |
Thanks AP. I don't blame you for getting a bit confused, because this doesn't seem to have been a simple family. I can't find Thomas Taylor's death. There were one or two Thomas Cutbushes who died during the relevant period, but seemingly at the wrong age. I only hope he didn't lose himself in America.
I'll probably have to go back to parish records, because I want to determine the precise relationship between Thomas Taylor and Charles Henry.
Looking again at the occupation for Charles Cutbush's father, I think it could be "Seedsman".
By the way, I don't know if this has already come up, but I believe Charles Henry married Ann Dowle in Kent (Dover, I think) December quarter 1867.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 8:24 pm: | |
It seems the elusive Thomas Taylor Cutbush went to Australia. Below is a legal notice published on 15 June 1892 asking for information about him
Chris
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2499
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 4:15 am: | |
Great find Chris! Can you make out those dates?
Was it 1865 that he left England, 1871 went to Melbourne and 1883 resided at Pickles St?
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 4:21 am: | |
Here is the text from a larger copy
Times (London)
15 June 1892
Pursuant to a Judgement of the High Court of Justice Chancery Division made in an action CUTBUSH v CUTBUSH 1891 C.4182 an enquiry is directed to be made who are the PERSONS INTERESTED in the HEREDITAMENTS in the Statement of Claim delivered in the said action mentioned and for what estates and interests and in what shares and proportions. The said hereditaments are known as Nos. 6 and 7 Fieldgate Street in the Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel in the County of Middlesex. Thomas Taylor Cutbush one ofthe persons interested in the said hereditaments left England in November 1866 for Wellington, New Zealand and in or about the year 1871 went to Melbourne. In the year 1885 he is believed to have resided in Pickles Street, Port Melbourne. The said Thomas Taylor Cutbush if living or his representatives if dead are on or before the 7th November 1892 to come in and prove their claims at the Chambers of Mr. Justice Chitty at the Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London or in default thereof the Court will make such order as may be just. Tuesday the 15th November 1892 at eleven o'clock in the forenoon at the said Chambers is appointed for heaing and adjudicating upon the claims. dated this 3rd day of June 1892.
John Wm. Hawkins
Chief Clerk
(Message edited by Chris on June 01, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 4:25 am: | |
Interesting that Thomas T went to New Zealand in 1866, the very year that Thomas H was born
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2500
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 4:39 am: | |
Thanks, Chris. Yes, or the year after - Thomas Hayne seems to have been born in 1865.
I wonder who the Cutbushes involved in the action were? Also, if it should turn out that Kate became involved in the claim, that might prove that they knew he was dead by then.
Certainly though Kate seems to have been wrong in listing herself as a widow in 1881.
I'd love these two properties to have been lodging houses!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 1:33 pm: | |
So would I, Robert... so would I.
Impressive find, Chris, I'm so glad to see some background emerging at last.
I take me hat off to you, sir, and raise me glass.
Somehow - given the American and Australian connections - I do get the feeling that the Cutbush/Hayne clan were not your norm in the LVP.
They seem to have been running away from something a long time before 1888.
Anyways, great stuff! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2501
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 7:04 am: | |
Maybe they were runner beans, AP? I guess I was right to read Charles Cutbush senior's occupation as seedsman, for that sort of thing seems to have run in the Cutbush tribe. Besides the numerous horticultural reports in the "Times", it's also reported that one James Cutbush went bankrupt in 1883. This James is listed in the 1881 census as living in London and as being a nurseryman employing 58 men and 10 boys.
I haven't found the result of the court case mentioned in Chris's post, only reports that the case was still being considered.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2504
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 3:49 pm: | |
AP, I think Kate's fallen down the stairs.
THE TIMES
WEDNESDAY, AUGHUST 17th, 1910, pg.6
OUTRAGE IN SOUTH LONDON
Yesterday morning Mrs. Cutbush, a widow who lives alone at the corner of Daneville-road and Denmark-hill, where she carries on a china business, was found gagged and bound on her premises, which had been ransacked by burglars. Her shop-boy arrived about 9 o'clock, and being unable to get an answer to his knocking, gained admittance to the shop by means of a window at the back, and on making a search found Mrs. Cutbush lying on the staircase. Her hands and feet were tied, and there was a piece of rag in her mouth. Mrs. Cutbush stated that as she was leaving her bedroom about 7.30 yesterday morning she was met at the door by two men, who were wearing masks. She screamed and was at once seized by the men, and a struggle followed. She succeeded in getting two or three steps down the staircase, but was then overpowered, thrown down, and had her hands tied. She continued to shout for the police, and one of them forced a piece of dirty rag into her mouth. In this condition she remained until found by the boy. It was discovered, subsequently, that the thieves had taken 18 pounds in cash and a considerable quantity of jewelry. The police were informed, and found that the house had been entered by means of a window at the back which had been broken.
Robert
PS I couldn't get the pound sign on my machine so had to type the word.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 4:04 pm: | |
Yes Robert
Interesting finds.
During my own fumbling on the net I did also discover that the Cutbush clan had horticultural tendencies, in fact one Cutbush who fled to Australia at the time mentioned employed himself usefully in that regard and is still famous today for that.
Another fled to Holland and bred roses. I do believe the family have a web-site advertising their dubious wares.
As ever, I’ve lost the references, but I’m sure I’m correct.
Perhaps dear young Thomas was trying to put together an F1 hybrid prostitute by grafting stems?
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 4:22 pm: | |
Sorry Robert
we crossed posts then.
Yes, poor old Kate fell down the stairs right enough.
One does have to say that just too many things happen to the Cutbush clan for their own good.
Somewhere I do smell some of Joe's old cod.
Great stuff, Robert, my hat and wig are off to you sir. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2508
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 6:02 pm: | |
It's just occurred to me that the case above, Cutbush v. Cutbush, may have been a divorce - maybe even Kate's and Thomas Taylor's? I'll have to have a dig.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2697
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 11:40 am: | |
I have now obtained some details of two cases of Cutbush v Cutbush, one from 1839 and the other from 1893. The result of the 1839 case I can leave for the moment, as it is long and concerns creditors and debtors. But here is the 1893 case, as reported in the Solicitors’ Journal Vol.37 P. 685 :
CUTBUSH v CUTBUSH – Chitty, J., 2nd August.
SOLICITOR – INSTRUCTIONS FROM THIRD PERSON – NO COMMUNICATION WITH ACTUAL CLIENT – RISK.
Partition action. On the above action coming on on further consideration it appeared that T.H.C., one of the persons who had been served with notice of the judgment, and for whom the plaintiff’s solicitors had entered an appearance, was of unsound mind. The plaintiff’s solicitors, who were then acting for all parties, had received no instructions from T.H.C. direct, but acted for him on the instructions of his mother, who did not disclose the fact of his unsoundness of mind. A contract for sale of real estate was confirmed in the action, the puchase-money paid into court, and the chief clerk’s certificate made without any guardian ad litem being appointed, and it was only when it became necessary for T.H.C. to execute the conveyance that it was discovered that he was a lunatic confined at B -. The purchaser appeared on the further consideration. All parties were anxious to save expense, and desired to adapt the former proceedings in the action so far as they would be made to bind the lunatic.
Chity, J., said the case illustrated the great danger of solicitors allowing themselves to take instructions from third persons. In this case the parties were very lenient, and took no technical objections to the validity of the former proceedings, or he might have had to order the solicitors to pay the costs of any proceedings rendered abortive by their neglect to obtain proper instructions. The following order was made :- "Appoint A.B. guardian ad litem, and the person of unsound mind appearing and submitting to be bound declare him a trustee within the Trustee Act, 1850, and appoint a person to be named in the order to convey in his place. Purchaser to have the costs of this application out of the fund in court." – COUNSEL, J.A. Hay; F. Hoare Colt; Seeley. SOLICITORS, Paterson & Sons; George Turner.
(Reported by G. Rowland Alston, Barrister-at-Law.)
I asked about the 1891 sessions, but unfortunately the records only go back to 1898.
Robert
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
Robert
absolutely fascinating stuff.
I'm still trying to get round it all.
So many things.
What the devil was THC doing with property?
Obviously Tom's mother was reluctant to come to terms with his incaceration in Broadmooor.
And uncle Charles was yet to pull the trigger.
Could we be looking at part of the reason uncle Charles did pull that trigger?
I'll have to study this when I'm sober.
This is a gem, Robert. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2701
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 5:09 pm: | |
Well, AP, as a guess (and it's only a guess) i'd say that Kate was selling/buying a house. We know that she moved from Albert St some time between 1891 and 1901. If Tom was the owner of the house that she was selling, then I suppose that would indicate that Thomas Taylor Cutbush, Tom's father, was by 1893 believed to be dead - the estate then settling on Tom. Or, maybe as an alternative, Thomas Taylor Cutbush had been missing so long that Kate had him declared dead? I don't know what the rules are in such cases.
On the other hand, it may have had nothing to do with 14 Albert St, as two properties in Fieldgate St were mentioned in a "Times" report.
It's a bit of a mystery.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2703
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 5:44 pm: | |
Of course, if Tom inherited 14 Albert St from his father, that would mean that the law regarded a wife's property as her husband's (if Kate inherited the property from her parents). But those days were gone by then, weren't they?
Or maybe Kate's parents left the house in trust to Tom?
We need to consult a lawyer ancient enough to remember those days. Shame Lord Hailsham's no longer with us.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 415
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 10:19 pm: | |
Hi All,
Not much of anything to say about the interesting family - legal matters of the Cutbush Clan. I hope more comes out. But from the 11th Edition of the ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA (1911), Volume 6: CHA - CON, comes the following about the justice involved.
P. 252, col. 2:
"CHITTY, SIR JOSEPH WILLIAM (1828-1899), English judge, was born in London. He was the second son of Thomas Chitty (himself son and brother of well-known lawyers), a celebrated special pleader and writer of legal text-books, in whose room many distinguished lawyers began their legal education. Joseph Chitty was educated at Eton and Balliol, Oxford, gaining a first-class in Literae Humaniores in 1851, and being afterwards elected to a fellowship at Exeter College. His principal distinctions during his school and college career had been earned in athletics, and he came to London as a man who had stroked the Oxford boat and captained the Oxford cricket eleven. He became a member of Lincoln's Inn in 1851, was called to the bar in 1856, and made a queen's cousel in 1874, electing to practise as such in the court in which Sir George Jessel, master of the rolls, presided. Chitty was highly successful in his method of dealing with a very masterful if exceedingly albe judge, and soon his practice became very large. In 1880, he entered the house of commons as liberal member for Oxford (city). His parliamentary career was short, for in 1881 the Judicature Act required that the master of the rolls should cease to sit regularly as a judge of first instance, and Chitty was elected to fill the vacancy thus created in the chancery division. Sir Joseph Chitty was for sixteen years a popular judge, in the best meaning of the phrase, being noted for his courtesy, geniality, patience and scrupulous fairness, as well as for his legal attainments, and being much respected and liked by those practising before him, in spite of a habit of interrupting counsel, possibly acquired through the example of Sir George Jessel. In 1897, on the retirement of Sir Edward Kay, L.J., he was promoted to the court of appeal. There he more than sustained -- in fact, he appreciably increased -- his reputation as a lawyer and a judge, proving himself to possess considerable knowledge of the common law as well as of equity. He died in London on the 15th of February 1899. He married in 1858 Clara Jessie, daughter of Chief Baron Pollock, and left children who could thus claim descent from two of the best-known English legal families of the 19th century.
See E. Manson, BUILDERS OF OUR LAW (1904)."
Interesting that he liked cricket - I wonder if he ever met that younger cricket loving barrister, Monty Druitt.
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2704
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 4:43 am: | |
Hi Jeff
Thanks very much for that information. Since so many nineteenth century lawyers had a public school sporting background, I'm a bit surprised that we don't hear of cricket matches between barristers' chambers, etc.
In Britain today there are, I believe, annual House of Commons v House of Lords chess and bridge matches, and I think I'm right in saying that MPs occasionally play football and cricket.
Of course, a cricket match involving barristers might present problems, as it could take several months of argument to decide whether or not a batsman was out.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2720
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
Hi all
Thanks to the good people at RootsChat.com (especially Ruth) I have been given a transcript of New Zealand marriages, which shows a Thomas Taylor Cutbush, bachelor, clerk, marrying Agnes Ingles Stoddart, spinster, 18, on 10 Dec 1867 at Dixon St, Wellington. Witnesses George Sample and John C. Stoddart.
If this is "our" Thomas Taylor Cutbush then it chimes in with a newspaper item posted by Chris Scott, which mentioned rumours that Thomas Hayne's father had contracted a bigamous marriage abroad.
Also, AP has found a record of a Mr T. Cutbush arriving in Australia aboard the "Commodore" on 20 Jan 1867.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1190
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 5:52 pm: | |
Lovely stuff, Robert.
Sort of fell together that search.
This Cutbush clan is proving quite alarming in its nature.
I am discovering that the Kent Cutbush clan were remarkable folk who enjoyed immense wealth and fame in the early to mid 1800's especially in the colonies, where the head of the clan - one James - was a big-wig in the Amerikas, his new-fangled clocks are worth a fortune today, and to pick up his technical paper on pyrotechnics as weapons of war will cost you a cool grand today. The Cutbush boys from Kent were the premier clock makers and designers of that time, in the forefront of paper making technology and were designing weapons of mass destruction way before their time.
I'll post all of this when I can put down the brandy bottle.
One knows that I'm wild, but I am beginning to think that I know why Thomas wrote that letter to Lord Grimthorpe:
'How did David Johnson Gardiner come upon this idea of “Maidstone”? The Gardiners still own a lovely brass, spring-driven mantle clock - 15 inches high by 6 inches wide - on whose face is engraved in large letters, “John Cutbush, Maidstone”.[9] The Cutbush family were clock makers in Maidstone about the beginning of the 1700's and were the first to use the new spring driven clock works.'
Ah, eat your heart out Lord Grimthorpe.
The Cutbush clan got there before you.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2723
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 6:08 pm: | |
Looking forward to the info, AP.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1192
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 4:15 pm: | |
Thanks Robert, here is a start, I've ordered this volume:
'Kent Clocks & Clockmakers
By Michael Pearson
Kent has a long history of clockmaking, with a clock being installed in Canterbury Cathedral as early as 1292. This book details Kent's early turret clocks, and the history of the county's most influential clockmakers. By the end of the seventeenth century Kent had a rapidly growing number of clockmakers, and by the eighteenth century a growing number of London-trained apprentices moved into the county. Though many Kent clocks have a style similar to those from London, a distinctive Kentish style developed, both for simple 'country' clocks and more particularly high-quality cases made in the east of the county with a distinctive Kentish cresting. There is a comprehensive list of over 1,200 clockmakers from the earliest times up to the nineteenth century, while an appendix gives extracts from local eighteenth- and early nineteenth-century newspapers relating to clocks and watches.
The author
Michael Pearson is a dealer in early oak furniture and clocks in Canterbury, and has researched the history of the clockmakers of his native county for over twenty years.
Contents
Introduction
Turret Clocks in Kent
Domestic Clockmaking in Kent
The Bakers of Maidstone & Town Malling
The Cutbush Family of Maidstone
Thomas Deale of Ashford
The Greenhill Family
Kent Clockmakers & Watchmakers
Clockmakers & Watchmakers in Early Kent Newspapers
Kent Clockmakers & Watchmakers Listed by Town
Bibliography
Index
Specifications
ISBN 0 9523270 7 4
246 x 186mm, 320 pages, 206 black and white illustrations, 13 colour illustrations, map, hardback with full-colour dust jacket, £34.99
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