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Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 5:30 am: |       |
This appears to be our man as listed in the 1881 British census. --
Thomas CUTBUSH
Male
Other Information:
Birth Year <1866>
Birthplace Newington
Age 15
Occupation Com Clerk
Marital Status U <unmarried>
Head of Household John K. HAYNE
Relation Son
Source Information:
Dwelling 14 Albert St
Census Place Newington, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341125
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0551 / 103
Page Number 29
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Diana
Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 7:31 am: | |
I have a feeling I'm asking one of those dumb questions where when the answer is given it becomes obvious. The Head of Household is listed as John K. HAYNE, then under Relation it says Son. Why not John K. Cutbush, then or Thomas Hayne? |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 8:20 am: | |
Hi Diana
The answer lies in the full census listing for 14 Albert St. This is as follows:
Head
John K. Hayne aged 71 born Witney, Oxford
Wife
Annie Hayne aged 75 born Witney, Oxford
Daughter
E Hayne aged 37 born Witney, Oxford Income derived from property
Daughter
Kate Cutbush (Widowed) aged 33 born New York - Assistant
Son
Thomas Cutbush aged 15 born Newington - Commercial Clerk
Lodger
John Bodrick aged 26 born Glamorgan, Wales - Schoolmaster
Lodger
Edgar T Clark aged 22 born Whyddom, Norfolk - Ironmonger
When you read this list the relationships become clearer. John Hayne had a widowed daughter Kate whose married name was Cutbush. Thomas is her son so is in fact John Hayne's grandson. The interesting fact is that Kate is recorded as born in New York
Hope this clarifies things
Chris S |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 36
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 1:56 pm: | |
Chris,
I have tried - as ever without success - to track down information about Kate Cutbush, who she was married to, when she came from America to England etc and etc.
I did get two hits, one on an American immigration site, and another that was possibly a marriage, again in America, but was unable to pursue further due to my woeful control of this modern weapon. I no longer have the records of where those sites are.
I honestly 'aint much cop at this internet thing.
Similarly I have found - in the past - one reference that referred to the early death of Thomas' natural father, and another that claimed he had in fact deserted the family.
The fact that one of Hayne's daughters was able to live on the income of property in Oxford is worthy of further research as well.
And surely the fact that Kate's birthplace is listed as New York does mean that the whole pack of them once lived there, doesn't it?
All in all I feel that this American Connection must be intensively explored.
As does the Oxford connection.
As does everything.
I mean if Thomas Cutbush was Jack the Ripper - and I'm not saying he was, yet - and if he had been born in America to an American father and American mother, well, bless my soul, he would be an American.
|
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 3:20 pm: | |
Hi AP
I have had a look in the US census for 1880 and there is only one Cutbush family listed and they are resident in New York. One useful thing about the US census is that is also gives birthplace of parents.
This household is as follows:
Address:
District 2, Milton, Saratoga, New York
Head:
Mary Cutbush (widowed) aged 38
Born in New York
Profession shown as "Keeping house"
Father born in New York
Mother born in England
Children:
William J aged 14
Born in New York
Farmer
John aged 12
Born in New York
Anna aged 9
Born in New York
For all children, father's birthplace is England and mother's bithplace is New York.
Hope this is of interest
Chris S |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 5:37 pm: | |
Thanks for that, Chris,
I will print it out and study it. These things always reward study.
No luck on the emigration/immigration front?
I had something of interest there before I lost it.
The family you have found has to be the one we are looking for, but Kate must have come to London before 1866, if we accept Thomas' birth record as being Newington, Surrey and 1866.
I don't. For the simple fact that his birth place is the same as the census place. It could happen and it probably does, but not for me in this instance.
|
Christopher T George
Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 3:17 am: | |
Hi, Chris and AP:
Are we making the assumption that the Cutbush to whom Kate Hayne was married was an American? This might of course be the case, but it would not explain the fact that the suspect Thomas Hayne Cutbush was described by Macnaghten in his famous 23 February 1894 memoranda as "a nephew" of Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush (1844-1896), which would seem to me to imply that Thomas Cutbush's father was English.
Now there might have been an American branch to the same Cutbush family to which the Superintendent belonged. In addition to (and maybe linked to) the New York Cutbush family that you found, Chris, there was a famous American Cutbush in Edward Cutbush (1772-1843), a surgeon in the early U.S. Navy, commissioned in 1799. In 1829, after 30 years of service in the navy, he resigned his position and retired to Geneva, New York, where he became a professor of chemistry and dean of the medical faculty of Geneva College. See Manuscript Group 800, De Zeng Family (Geneva, NY) in the New Jersey Historical Society.
However, another way to look at this is that Kate was married to an English kinsman (brother?) of Superintendent Cutbush and Kate only happens to be American born because her parents, John K. Hayne and his wife, Annie Hayne, aged 71 and 75 years, respectively, at the time of the 1881 census, and both born in Witney, Oxford, were for some reason in New York when Kate Hayne was born there in 1848. This could have happened if John Hayne was, for example, in the diplomatic service, or was a merchant who happened to have his wife with him in New York.
Best regards
Chris George
|
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 11:19 am: | |
Hi Chris and AP
I was not making the assumption that Thomas C's father was American - just having a look for AP as he said he was interested in any American connection.
In fact in line with what you say, I think it almost certain that Thomas' father was English. If we take the above census record for 14 Albert Street in conjunction with that for Supt Cutbush who we are told was his uncle we can actually go back another generation on the female side.
The 1881 Census record for the uncle is as follows:
Address
36 St Pauls Road
Newington
Surrey
Head:
Charles Cutbush aged 36 born Ashford Kent
Chief Inspector of Police
Wife:
Ann Cutbush aged 36 born New Romney Kent
Children
Amelia aged 13
Ellen aged 10
Winfred aged 5
Caroline aged 3
Charles aged 7 months
Mother:
Amelia Cutbush (widowed) aged 66 born Hythe Kent
Annuitant
Other:
Winifred Warrell aged 36 born Chelsea
Lady's help
Because of the surname, Charles, the police supt. must be Thomas Cutbush's paternal uncle i.e. he was the brother of Kate Cutbush's deceased husband. Also the Amelia Cutbush mentioned must also be the mother of Thomas' father.
I have also traced that Amelia Cutbush dies in 1900 at the age of 84.
Also interesting to note that the address for Charles is Newington which is the birthplace given for Thomas
Hope this is of use
Chris S
|
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
Chris & Chris
Heavens! You two are getting me confused!
I think the pair of you should sit down and write a concise history of the Cutbush family and I will then include that - with grateful thanks - as a chapter at the end of the book contributed by the pair of you.
I get terribly confused by family history and need help when it comes to dates and possibilities.
Just to be a rogue - which I am - has anyone ever considered the possibility that Charles Henry Cutbush might be the father of Thomas?
Chris Scott is quite right, it is me who seeks an American connection, and I think he is doing famously along those lines.
As are you.
Thank you both. |
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Police Constable
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 7:34 am: | |
The 1901 census shows at 16 Durand Gardens Brixton:
Clara E. Hayne single 61 own means born Watlington Oxon
Kate Cutbush sister wid. 57 manageress, china & glass born America (British Subject)
Joseph Petrolin boarder single 55 Litho artist born Italy foreign subject.
Jennifer Lamy was asking about this at one point.
No obvious trace of the Hayne family in the 1850 census although there are three John Hayne entries in NY state whose exact entries are difficult to find. Also no births for Kate in the on-line NY records. |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2003 - 1:38 pm: | |
Peter
Thank you for that.
I did wonder whether Kate Cutbush had stayed in England after the events connected with her son, Thomas, and his uncle, Charles Henry. One dead, the other in Broadmoor for life, sort of thing that could make you want to leave the country or at least the area.
I still have not had much of a chance to study the census results that have already been posted here regarding the Hayne/Cutbush family, but will take that time tomorrow.
But a quick glance seems to indicate that the Hayne side of the family had considerable income whilst the Cutbush side was not quite so well off.
That both Thomas and his uncle, Charles Cutbush, have same birthplace is also of interest.
Why? Was Kate living with the Cutbush household at the time.
The American connection baffles me sometimes.
Have the American citizenship laws changed since those days? My understanding of present law is that anyone born in America automatically becomes an American citizen. Would that not apply to Kate Cutbush? Or did she rescind her American citizenship upon her return to England?
I do remember once stumbling across a marriage concerning a Kate Hayne in America that was in the right time frame, and I think that was in Texas. I am entirely useless on the net.
Whatever. Your efforts are strongly appreciated and anything else you dig up would be more than welcome.
As I said to Chris & Chris it would be gratifying to have the entire family history mapped out, and your post is a valuable contribution to that.
|
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Police Constable
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
Dear AP
I don't see any problem with Thomas and uncle Charles being at one point in the same area (Newington) but remember that Thomas was born there and Charles only lived there being born Ashford, Kent. There may not have been much difference in the earning power of the respective households, the Hayne's having to take in lodgers and the Cutbush's having a "Lady's help."
Citizenship rules change from time to time but in general terms Kate would have had dual citizenship: American through her birth and English through her parents. It would have been up to her to tell the enumerators her birth details. Maybe she had a bit of an accent. She would not have had to rescind it (her US citizenship)to live in the UK. Things didn't matter so much in those dear, dead days. |
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Police Constable
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 10:44 am: | |
Jennifer Lamy asked for this info on an Ancestry.com message board. I see that she may have been an Australian Athlete in the 1960's so if she is also reading these pages, I say "Good onyer sport." |
AP Wolf
Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2003 - 1:23 pm: | |
Thanks Peter, of course you are right about Thomas and Charles having differing birth places, I blame the Safeways Spanish Brandy for that one. My slightly staggering line of thought being was Thomas born into the Cutbush household at Newington?
I would really like to know much more about the American connection and sincerely hope that some new information may eventually turn up. I don't see any great revelations coming out of it, just be nice to have it all tidied up.
Yes, you are quite right, Jennifer Lamy was in Australia in the early 60's, and she was there just this year, but I'm afraid she can no longer even run to the bar for the happy hour.
So good onyer too sport! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 8:15 am: | |
Hi
Re a possible American connection : I don't know whether this has already come up somewhere, but the 1881 census shows a John S. Hayne born Philadelphia, British subject, age 35, land surveyor. His wife was Annie J. Hayne age 36 born Walworth, Surrey.Daughters Annie G. (11) and Clara E. (10) were both born Camberwell. John E. Hayne, son age 7 born Tottenham. Janet Hayne daughter age 5 born Tottenham. Arthur P. Hayne son age 1 born Tottenham. Address 11 Sharsted St, Newington.
Robert |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 515
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 10:15 am: | |
Hi, Robert:
Thanks for posting the interesting information from the 1881 census about the family of John S. Hayne, born Philadelphia, British subject, age 35, land surveyor, address 11 Sharsted St, Newington. This information does not appear to slot in readily with the information previously posted that Thomas Cutbush was apparently the son of John K. Hayne, aged 71, born Witney, Oxford, residing at 14 Albert St., Newington, Surrey, also per the 1881 census. The common geographic location of Newington though is very intriguing and might suggest a familial link and also explain the possibility of an American connection we had discussed above. I wonder if there might be an error in the 1881 census and that Thomas Cutbush might have been actually the grandson of John K. Hayne, age 71, and not his son as recorded, and Cutbush was for some reason living with his grandparents rather than with his father and mother? Certainly John S. Hayne and his wife more logically, agewise, could have been his parents. Has AP or anyone seen a death certificate for Thomas Cutbush that might elucidate the matter?
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on December 30, 2003) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1702
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Yes, I would have thought that Thomas was the grandson of John Hayne. But couldn't Kate Cutbush still be his mother, as Chris Scott suggested above?
There was also the Thomss F. Cutbush age 22 in 1881, living in Newington. I'd like to know where he fits in.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 647
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
Riveting stuff this, thank you Robert and Chris.
The machinations of the Hayne and Cutbush clan leave me very confused these days, there was a time - twenty years ago - when I would have been on the cutting edge of information like this, these days I just tend to reach for the bottle and say 'oh well'.
My understanding is that Thomas Cutbush's death certificate will be released in the coming year, it has been privy till now.
That should shed some light on this.
I do have the feeling that we have been here before, and I did get terribly confused, thinking that Thomas could have in fact been a product of his so-called auntie but I think I was blown out of the water on that one.
More able minds should take this quest on, I'm just too muddled for this now.
Someone should suggest to that Saadam fellow that it would be worthwhile for him to do something constructive like this with his obvious intellect and intelligence instead of bleating like some lost lamb at the slaughter house of complete and utter indifference that he carts about with him.
Just a thought.
Thanks chaps. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1703
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
Hi AP, Chris
Presumably the difficulty in obtaining Thomas's death certificate, has to do with his dying in an asylum. As far as I can make out, he's listed in the 1901 census as commercial clerk, age 35, only his birthplace is given as Kennington. He's listed only under the intials 'T.C.' - most of the patients seem to have been listed under initials.
In the 1881 census there is also a family called Haynes with a Pennsylvania connection. But they lived in Cranleigh, Surrey.
Robert |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
AP,
A bit off topic, riveting stuff. Were you able to confirm, from your sources (previous post), that Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush had numerous scars and cuts over the length of his body?
"My understanding is that Thomas Cutbush's death certificate will be released in the coming year, it has been privy till now". Have you seen the Superintendent's death certificate?
Now a snifter of Lepanto.
Take care,
Kevin
|
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 649
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 3:53 am: | |
Robert
thanks for that.
Yes, I believe I was told that documents relating to Thomas could not be released for a certain number of years because they were considered Home Office material, or something like that.
Regarding the American connection it would be well worth your while to float over to Ancestry.com - I think that's the name? This brandy is playing the devil with my memory - where there seems to be a lot of emerging detail concerning these two families across the water, some of it is resticted access but I'm sure there are ways and means to a determined researcher... which I am not these days. |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 650
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 4:00 am: | |
Thanks Kevin
I'm not in the research side of things anymore.
I retired some years ago.
No, I have not seen the actual death certificate for the strange superintendent Cutbush, but I have seen a record of his death and do have his obituary.
I have been told privately by another researcher that details of his wounds are available in his pension records.
This coming year should sort all this out, as documents and records relating to the issue will hopefully become available.
A word of warning though, there were two Superintendent Cutbush's living and dying at around the same time so it might be a bit of a devil's muddle. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 216
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 8:37 pm: | |
Hi all,
I can't help being impressed by all the investigating into the Cutbush/Hayne connection. Of Americans with names like John Hayne, I can only recall the South Carolinian politician, and
supporter of Calhoun and Nullification in 1832, to whom Daniel Webster made his famous "Reply to
Hayne" speech in the U.S. Senate (it ended, "Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseperable!"). There was also the now obscure automobile manufacturer of the Hayne-Appleton car at the turn of the century.
But the name John Hayne rang a bell. I double checked, and found that in the events of 1892 that led to the arrest, trial, and execution of Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, there was an engineer named John Haynes who was a witness at Cream's trial. Let me quote from Richard Altick's VICTORIAN STUDIES IN SCARLET (New York: Norton, 1970)p. 265:
"Even worse, a fellow-lodger at his
[Cream's] new address in the Westminster
Bridge Road, Lambeth...was a man named John
Haynes, whose role in the case remains
tantalizingly undefined, insofar as the
official record, at least, is concerned.
Ostensibly an unemployed engineer, Haynes
seems to have been a private investigator
working for the Home Office. According to
the judge presiding at Cream's trial [Mr.
Justice Henry Hawkins, later Baron Brampton]
he "had been employed by the Government as a
secret agent very often in important
affairs," the most recent being in connection
with "a certain class of suspected persons,"
which we may interpret as dynamiting Fenians.
He had been an associate of "Major Le Caron,"
otherwise Thomas Miller Beach, one of the
greatest of nineteenth century spies, who in
the 1880s had worked inside the Fenian
organization in America on behalf of the
British government. Haynes himself,
testified a friend of his who was a sergeant
in the C.I.D., had returned from America only
six months earlier."
If the name of Thomas Miller Beach sounds familiar, he worked closely to another figure of the Yard - Sir Robert Anderson. Beach, by the way, died in 1894, the year of the Thomas Cutbush
"Flash-in-the-pan", culminating in MacNaghten's statement.
Coincidence, coincidence, coincidence, or what?
Can Police Sergeant John Haynes be a relative of land surveyor John Hayne, and then of Thomas
Cutbush? Could the hushing up of Thomas in Broadmoor have to do with state secrets involving
Ireland? I have no real idea, but maybe it's worth a shot looking into.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
AP Wolf
Chief Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 656
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 7:26 am: | |
That is quite something you have turned up there, Jeff. Fascinating in fact.
It sort of lends a fragile credence to the Catholic connection through Superintendent Cutbush with his maniacal obssession for Catholics; and of course Anderson's official machinations against the dreaded Fenians.
I believe there is also a town in the USA called 'Haynes'.
Whatever, your research does add yet another wonderful dimension to the entire Cutbush affair, and I shall dwell on what you have written. |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 529
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 10:09 am: | |
Hi, Jeff:
Fascinating information about the undercover operative John Haynes. Of course this is sheer speculation, but if this John Haynes could have been the same man in the census whose name is given as John S. Hayne, born Philadelphia, British subject, age 35, land surveyor, address 11 Sharsted St, Newington, and who was possibly the father of Thomas Hayne Cutbush, this might explain why, if Hayne(s) was engaged in dangerous work that might see him often away on trips, young Cutbush was not shown as living with him in the 1881 census. It might also explain Macnaghten's anxiousness to scotch any more scrutiny of Cutbush by writing his memorandum. Hmmmmmm...
All the best
Chris |
|
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