| Author |
Message |
    
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:55 pm: | 
|
Thanks for that Robert
The male Cutbushes had multiple wives and the female Cutbushes had invisible husbands then. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2040
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:00 am: |
|
Hi Robert and Debra
The entry for Henry Hastings aged 9 and Florence aged 11 is from 1871 census, not 1861. Might help with the search for a marriage.
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2041
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:06 am: |
|
Here's the entry from 1871:
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4456
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:53 am: |
|
Thanks Chris. The 1861 census had just Ellen and Florence. I can't send the image, because for some reason it keeps coming up as too wide for the site rules, even though I had no trouble posting the John Jewell Evens image the other day. Anyway, the reference is RG9/335 Folio 127 page 4.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2121
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
|
Robert
have you yet come across the reported demise of James Cutbush in your travels?
This was the Highgate Cutbush who hob-nobbed with lords, ladies and mayors.
It is like something out of the Goons show when he suddenly drops dead on the stage he has carefully set out with expensive shrubs and flowers, right in front of his invited guest, the Baroness Burdett-Coutts.
August 3rd 1885. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4457
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
|
Yes, AP, he died of some sort of apoplexy or seizure, didn't he? I remember thinking at the time, "he should never have grown flowers with hayfever like that."
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2123
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
|
Quite right, Robert
he had the seizure on the stage, was declared dead and taken home to Highgate, and as the relatives sat discussing his massive wealth, old James Cutbush sat up in his bed again loudly demanding brandy, so Thomas smothered him with a pillow and uncle Charles shot him in the head, then Kate threw him down the stairs.
(that is not in The Times as I just made it up). |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4459
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
|
AP, just wondering whether Kate's attempt to sell Tom's property was a desperate measure to try and salvage something from the approaching Mrs Swann.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4460
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
|
I think I may have mentioned that, before I had access to the 1861 census, I asked someone to do a lookup of Tom's birthplace - 10 Hurley Rd - and they reported there was no such road. However, there was such a road at some point - see http://members.aol.com/WHall95037/londonh.html
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
|
Robert
I believe Hurley Road was actually part of Kennington Lane.
Numbers 1 to 44 were a job lot.
Interestingly enough there was an agricultural college located there in the 1850's.
So they might have grown a few Cutbush roses. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4462
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
|
Complete with worms in the bud, AP?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2125
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
|
They got the worm out of the bud by using 'Cutbush's Patent Insecticide' which was of course quality whisky.
I think the problem with Hurley Road is one of these parish boundary things again, one minute Lambeth the next Kennington etc.
I can sell you a property right now in Hurley Road, if you so wish, only two bedrooms though so you might not have much room for the tea bags and ashtrays:
'2 Bedrooms £120,000 Fairford House, Hurley Road, Kennington, SE11.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4463
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
I don't fancy doing the Lambeth Walk just yet, AP.
Besides, those rose-sniffers might still be there.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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Don't blame you Robert.
The Lambeth Walk ain't wot it was.
Long gone are the days when you could walk a girl down there, beat her to death and throw her in the Thames; and then get a caution and a cup of tea from the local JP, who was probably called Flood or Cutbush.
They take this murder business all so seriously today.
I think you to be right, when the Swanns were due to fly in, Kate decided to fly out before they got there.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2128
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Robert
I just been wandering along Whitechapel Road and got to number 272.
The one that was a source of great contention amongst the Cutbush/Flood and Mears clans in 1867.
How much of the Whitechapel Road did these buggars own?
Anyways 272 became the very first ‘People’s Market’ shortly after this - see December 10th 1867 - and then later in the 1880’s became a ‘common lodging house’ run by dear old General Booth of the Salvation Army who found himself in court a lot for keeping a disorderly house and infecting the populace with smallpox.
I can’t remember now where we got with the discussion, but I still think that the fact that houses on Whitechapel Road were actually part of the houses in Fieldgate Street is a very important point.
The same address thing.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1976
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
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Found an expert book on Highgate "Highgate Past by John Richardson in which he reproduces the Cutbush House and attached nursery with "Wm Cutbush and Son" written above the Glass of the Nursery and underneath the picture 78-79 Highgate West Hill.I think it was dated 1822.
It said that in 1871 Cutbush Nursery employed 25 men and 2 boys but that their nursery in Barnes was even larger and in the 1881 census58 men and 2 boys although the Times of 18 sept 1883 reported his bankruptcy. Creditors received only 2 shillings in the pound.James Cutbush died in 1885 and despite the above his grandsons continued the business[William and Herbert].In 1914 they won the prestigious RHS Gold Medal for "roses".They were famed for their imported Hyacinths.William Bignell an ex employee took it over in 1932.
I have been to the Garden Centre in Highgate-there is a wonderful Magnolia tree at the bottom of the hill beside the nursery which is very well known and popular today!
ps I know a lot of this has already been written about by AP,Robert and Debra but thought you might like to know they have a section devoted to them in this heritage book! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4466
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 5:30 pm: |
|
AP, Natalie
Yes, AP, this Whitechapel Rd business is interesting. I think at some point in the future a trip to Guildhall and intensive consultation of the directories there, plus investigation via the Land Registry, would provide quite a lot of good info. But another interesting fact, to my mind, is that Cutbushes were living at two addresses in Buck's Row in the LVP.
Natalie, thanks for that info. These rose sniffing Cutbushes have been dogging my steps for some time now! Actually, they may somehow fit into the story - Uncle Charles's father was a seedsman.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on May 28, 2005) |
sally worboyes
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
|
get hold of a copy of Whitechapel Mary which isn't all the cover makes it out to be. Cutbush is in there having a whale of a time. Both cutbushes, Thomas and his uncle charles.
I wrote it so I should know. Sally Worboyes.
No more notes from me. I've got a book to write.
but this is fun - I've only just discovered playing on the net. Hours I've been on looking up all kinds of things. Happy playground. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2131
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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Yes, Natalie, I did find reference to this book - and the splendid magnolia tree - some while ago, but couldn’t get into the pay site for free, so ignored it. Nice reference though.
Robert, I wish a plague of frogs on Whitechapel Road.
In 1881, number 272 Whitechapel Road was the spark for a massive free -for-all and riot when 200 Salvation Army soldiers were attempting to get back to their headquarters at 272 and were met by 300 strong and stalwart Whitechapel boys carrying banners proclaiming ‘Opposition Salvation Army’ who then set about the Sally Army boys with a vengeance.
Only the intervention of a heavy police squad prevented murder that night.
What was going on?
I thought the SA was supposed to saving the souls of the wretched Whitechapel folk, so why were the wretched Whitechapel folk bashing their Christian heads?
This all culminated a year later when some of the Whitechapel boys actually went into number 272 Whitechapel Road and started stabbing the Sally boys.
This all has something to do with the back door being in Fieldgate.
The Sally Hall actually occupied numbers 270-272 in Roadside.
A lot of Sally here.
Greetings Sally.
Were the Whitechapel boys your whoreboys? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4470
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
|
AP, was this something to do with the smallpox? Or being woken up on Sunday morning by a brass band?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Robert
you are a first class card, and I love your refreshing posts.
The smallpox came later.
The big pox was the brass band for sure. |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
|
Hi All
The more I read about the Cutbush family, the more I am intrigued. T Cutbush is looking more and more like a really good suspect and Uncle Charles may have had knowledge of his nephew's activities in the event that Thomas was J t R, and would possibly cover for him, that is if Chas. himself wasn't the ripper. Charles suicide could have been the result of knowing about Thomas and no longer being able to live with this knowledge, not wanting to bring shame to his family by revealing this info, an obvious end to his career, shame to his uniform etc,etc. Or was he himself JtR?
There are several witness reports, many of which vary on several points. A police officer as JtR is really not all that far-fetched if anything is certain at all it is that most police officers would have knowledge of the people on their beats, in particular the prostitutes who were frequently arrested for drunkeness and so on.
Just thinking out loud here, would love to hear comments on same.
regards
Restless Spirit
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4475
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
|
Hi Restless Spirit
Well, Charles Henry Cutbush was a few slices short of a loaf. Thomas Hayne Cutbush was two slices short of a sandwich. I think there is much more that's yet to come out about the pair of them.
You might want to look out for the "Sun" reports on Cutbush, which will be posted on the Boards in the next few days.
Thanks for your interest.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
|
Yes Robert
We must always weigh up the statistics.
How many Superintendents of Scotland Yard shoot themselves in the head?
And out of those, how many have a named nephew as Jack the Ripper in open court?
How many newspapers have run a ten page series naming that nephew as Jack the Ripper?
I would be willing to bet right now, a pony, that Superintendent Cutbush is the only cop in the entire history of the British police force who shot himself in the head and had a named nephew thrown into Broadmoor for life at Her Majesty's Most Gracious Pleasure for stabbing women.
I want a toy dagger right now.
The Kennington blues are upon me. |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 54
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
Thanks for the comments to my post. I am feeling very excited about these two men in that there seems to be more and more pointing in their direction. I always felt that there was a Broadmoor connection, inmate wise of course. That may be why I had a tendency to lean toward Kelly. I have never felt so convinced before that we were close to naming Jack with definate facts as opposed to suppositions. I am not professing to know all, nor do I want to imply that other's suspects aren't viable, however from my personal view, the Cutbush men ,Thomas, Chas or both will one day be proven to be our infamous Jack.
Regards
Restless Spirit
|
Monkey Magic
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:14 am: |
|
Hi all...I'm new to this subject...but there seems to at the very least be information worthy of a second look here. I've only skimmed the Cutbush information really, but there seem to be two issues that need addressing before looking further....firstly, do the dates match? That is...not was TC 'at large' on the dates of the murder...but was he 'at large' following the murder of the final 'generally agreed' last victim? If so...how do we explain the seeming escalation of violence followed by a cessation?
Secondly, it seems the 'Ripper' DID escalate from one victim to the next, but Thomas was stopped for just 'jabbing' at a woman in public?
Forgive me if these have been answered ad nauseam but it seems if you can answer these, then the rest of the evidence starts to make a case that could go to court...? I dunno....might have to ask the CPS about that :-)
Best, Josh |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4494
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 2:52 pm: |
|
Josh, if you want to go further into it, you can read AP's book at
http://casebook.org/ripper_media/book_reviews/non-fiction/jackmyth.fulltext1.html
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
|
You joshing me?
The CPS!
It was the primitive dinosaur that was the CPS back then in the LVP - then called the 'Treasury' - who first started this whole frigging mess. Get them involved and we'll all be here to bath-time, and the ducks will be sopping wet.
The CPS is a positive menace to the successful prosecution of crime, just as the 'Treasury' was.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2007
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
|
Monkey Magic,
This used to be my reservation about Thomas Cutbush ie that I could not equate the "jobbing"
attacks with the murder and mutilation of at least five women.
First though he did not just "jab at a woman"s bottom".He attacked several women in the streets[causing the judge to commit him to Broadmoor for life apparently,he also made a violent assault on an elderly colleaugue by hurling him downstairs and leaving him for dead when the old chap had simply made a jocular remark about his vanity .
Thomas Cutbush also made violent attacks on at least one family member---and it may well be the case that he made a violent knife attack at some time on his relative Supt Cutbush as he had knife wounds all over his thighs and there is no evidence they resulted from injury in the line of police duty.
The illness that both Thomas and his relative Charles Cutbush suffered from was paranoia.Both had delusions about people out to poison them.
Now if you will hear me out, I am going to quote
from John D.Campbell"s study on Psychopathology undertaken with the cooperation of the Neuropsychriatic Department of the US naval Hospital of South Carolina.
He gives the following example of a patient discharged from naval duties because of mental instability:
C.A.P.always kept a bowie knife "ready for emergencies".He revealed his difficulties on the ship ocurred as a result of an officer swearing at him.He became obsessed by this blow to his ego,was sullen irritable and planned to obtain revenge.Because of his pathologic sensitivity and rigid paranoid disposition no retaliation seemed sufficient to neutralise his injured pride.He finally decided he must kill the officer and lay awake at night planning the murder[he was sectioned just in time on this particular occasion].
On previous occasions he had brutally obtained satisfaction from others even for the slightest cause.For instance some years before in Texas City he had placed his suitcase on a platform:a Mexican picked up the suitcase probably by mistake and our patient ordered him to set it down.An arguement ensued,both men drew knives,and the patient stabbed the Mexican who fell in a heap
upon the floor.The patient walked casually away as though nothing had happened.He later admitted the incident caused him no emotion whatsoever or the least concern.
The Doctor later goes on to say how close the patient had become on this ocassion to Paranoid Schizoid Reaction and explains as follows
the dangers of this development:
Due to the keen intelligence and insight these enormous hatreds/paranoid delusions can often be cleverly covered up........
......and then he states the following"In the name of some fanatical ideal he may convince himself that bloodshed is trivial.Some of the most gruesome murders described in the daily news are committed by this type of personality...........
and the psychosis-or outbraks of madness are unpredictable and can lie dormant for lengthy periods of time-resurfacing because of some imagined slight or order from the bible for example |
Writer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 11:20 am: |
|
Don't be mean. I found this site while trying to get to grips with using the internet instead of writing round the clock. The pun wasn't bad though. Tell the others that they were kind but cruel with their bits about my novel. I can't tell you how many hours I spent going through the Bible for the bits I needed that I thought Thomas would spiel. |
Monkey Magic
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 6:56 am: |
|
Thanks RC, AP and Nathalie! You are all very kind to reply. Even AP!
Nathalie, if I read your post right, and I'm not sure I do...its almost dinner time and my stomach has taken control of my mind...then I think you are suggesting that it is possible for a deeply disturbed mind to have episodes of violence that may surface and re-surface for any real or imagined reason.
This means that a "serial killer" or at any rate a violent paranoid delusional can embark on a killing spree...who knows why...and that this can run its course...and come to a conclusion.
That is - whilst most people SEEM to think a killer in these circumstance only stops when caught or dead, it may be possible that there is a third option. Simply stops, waiting for the next explosion.
I dont know too much about it....but is this similar with the BTK killer in the States? I have a feeling he lay dormant for some years after a number of horrible murders?
Thanks all again...Josh |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2017
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
|
Hi All,
In answer to the above post from Josh I think the best thread for this to be on is the one on the Sun 1894 articles as this is where the reporters raise the question of his sanity etc
Natalie |
Mr Phil
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 9:30 am: |
|
. Has anyone deduced why Miss Hine was visiting the Hayne family at the time of the 1861 census?
. My information is that she had a sister named Ann who was the same age as Ann Hayne. If they were the same person this would explain why Catherine's brother William might leave a bequest to his niece Clara as suggested by Robert in his post of March 26th.
. If this is so, then Miss Hine was young Thomas' Great Aunt.
. I have Miss Hine down as dying on 8th March 1900, but I've misplaced the source so I'll have to go digging to confirm that.
.(How does one indent the start of a paragraph short of preceding it with a full stop?) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4638
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 1:30 pm: |
|
Hi Mr Phil
Thanks for your interest. You'll have to give me a while to try to get back into the swing of the Haynes.
Will answer as soon as I can.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4641
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
|
Mr Phil, there was indeed a Catherine Sarah Hine, 84, registered March quarter, 1900, Lambeth.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on July 05, 2005) |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 6:29 pm: |
|
Going back a long time ago to the marriage of Flood to the two Mears sisters.
See The Times, April 2nd 1887, 'Marriage with a deceased wife's sister.'
This article appears to suggest that the marriage was illegal and carried no weight in law, especially when it came to inheritance. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 3:58 am: |
|
AP
I think Luke F Cutbush married the second Mears sister just before it was made illegal to do so under civil law in 1837, it was not accepted by the church as a legitimate marriage at that time though.
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2281
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
|
Thanks Debra
I'll check out the article again.
So Luke just slid in there nicely. |
Mr.Phil
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 7:54 am: |
|
Robert,
Found the source for Miss Hine's date of death.
It was contained in a family tree prepared by a distant cousin of mine.
It also gave her brother William's death as 1875.
No mention in it of who their sister Ann married.
An uncle of mine says that Miss Hine sold The Howe before she died, which might help to explain the Lambeth death registration.
Perhaps AP (of the brandy balloon and tartan mini skirt) might know Kate Cutbush's mother's maiden name?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4687
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
|
Thanks Mr Phil. I've asked AP.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2301
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 4:30 pm: |
|
I asked the AP as well.
That person said:
'Tarnation, I'm drunk and I can't remember who me own mum is.'
I'll attempt to drag an answer out of the remains.
('Ask Debra' were the words I heard as the remains fell down the stairs in a vain attempt to make last orders at the Ten Bells.) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4692
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
|
Don't fall down any spiral staircases, AP - you get giddiness as well as bruising.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2363
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
|
I got giddy all right.
One thing that just occurred to me as I trawl through old documentatia, is why did not young Thomas Cutbush get prosecuted for throwing the ‘poor gentleman’ down the stairs?
Please see the case of Joseph Ward, April 11th 1887, where he did exactly the same thing… and I mean exactly the same thing, and then suffered the full weight of the law.
Was Thomas already confined?
Or did uncle Charles flip a gold sovereign? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4743
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
|
AP, THC probably said, "I read in the "Times" that a man called Joseph Ward has been pushing people down the stairs, and he is the man you want."
I don't know the answer to your question.
Robert |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 85
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
|
AP WOLF
One thing that bothers me and certainly surprises me is that so many people are so quick to accept McNaughton's statement that Cutbush was not Jack the Ripper. Why center out this particular suspect to state that he was not JtR, why not make these statements in favour of the many other suspects they interviewed, eg Sadler or how about Kelly etc. All the main police investigators seemed to have their own list of suspects (favourites), they had a variety of suspects, however several of them had very little experience with the actual murders with some exceptions. McNaughton came into play after the murders, Anderson was away for the 1st one or two, with no previous police experience,Littlechild was not mentioned at all untill his letter to Sims was found and so on, and so on. So why are we expected to accept the opinions of officials who really did not know who the perp was but had to solve the case. What better way then to blame it on the suicide of a lawyer who cannot defend himself. What a convenience!! By this time I am convinced they had Jack secured in a lunatic asylum, his name not released due to either political reasons or a coverup due to one of there own.
There seems to be more to support Thomas and uncle Chas. than anything or anyone else I've read on so. far.
Iplease give me your opinion
with respect
Restless Spirit
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2389
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
|
Thanks for your kind and positive words, RS.
The mere fact that Thomas was in some way related to Uncle Charles must cast serious doubt on the testimony of any senior police officer involved in the case, especially when that connection was not mentioned in court when he was arrested for stabbing women.
It was only after the Sun published the story that Macnaghten wrote the memo. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 428
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:26 am: |
|
Hello Restless and A P,
One thing which occurs to me is the statement (was it Macnaghten's crony G R Sims?) the police had compiled a list of seven suspects, got it down to three (presumeably Macnaghten's three more likely) and were just about to move in on their preferred number One, when he went for a winter swim and died.
It is interesting the connection between Charles and Thomas Cutbush was not spelt out clearly in court.
Although done in confidence, Macnaghten did mention it.
Has anyone any idea who the seven likely suspects might have been? Could Cutbush have been one? |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 429
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:29 am: |
|
Incidentally A P,
Do you know who the M.P. for Kennington was in 1921?
An Australian journalist named Leonard Matters! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2393
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
|
Yes, John, I believe I had come across Matters in that regard but I got swerved at the time by another famous face who was MP for Kennington at the time of Thomas' arrest; and actually lived next door to the Cutbush family... but somehow that is a thread that I have now lost.
Regarding Thomas' court appearances, under any sort of normal circumstance I would have expected uncle Charles to have been present.
That he was not, and that the two officers who were present served with him at Lambeth and at the Commissioner's Office, seems to imply that they might have been there at his behest.
Going on from this, I do wonder whether TC's first name was really misrepresented by the press on his first court appearance or whether TC actually gave a false name to the arresting officers - which could explain a lot - as it was more than very common for prisoners to give out false names when appearing in court (see a case I flagged up on the Shadows thread) and it does appear that there was then in the LVP no legal obligation to give a true identity.
I think this might well be why we are unable to find TC in any records, he was probably calling himself Neville Stiff or Samuel Self. |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 64
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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Hi AP
Coincidentally, I was just looking today at one 'Samuel Bone, otherwise known as Thomas Cutbush', a plumber from Grays Inn Rd. sent to debtors prison in 1841.
As usual can't find anything else on him to tell which was his real name!!
Debra
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