|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1554
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 1:10 pm: |       |
Robert,
here is an interesting John Haynes that I found right here on the Casebook site. I'd forgotten all about this guy!
'Cream then wrote to the coroner and told him that Harper had committed the murders and that he had proof. He also wrote to John Haynes, a photographer who lived in his building, and told him the same thing. He constantly talked of the two dead women, often shocking his landlady with his vile descriptions of Harper’s alleged crimes.
It was finally John Haynes (after Cream took him on a guided tour of the murder sites) who went to detectives at Scotland Yard and told them of his suspicions about Cream being the killer. At that point, his attempts to blackmail Harper were also revealed and Cream was finally arrested.'
I must see what else I can find out about this chap, as I have come across some old Victorian postcard photos attributed to him.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1555
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
Just a little more info on the situation of Whitechapel Bell Foundry:
'Cross and continue along Whitechapel Road
The small park on the right is on the site of St Mary's Matfelon (the white chapel that gave the area its name). The park was re-named Altab Ali Park and the wrought iron entrance arch made in 1998 in memory of a murdered Bengali. On the corner with Plumbers Row is the Whitechapel Bell Foundry. This was established in Houndsditch in 1420 moving to its present site, which had formerly been that of the 17th century Artichoke Inn, in 1738. It has a small display & shop and offers tours on Saturday mornings (booking essential). A little further along is the East London Mosque.'
Interesting that 'Plumbers Row' makes the corner with the Foundry, and I would like to know the numbers of the properties that the Foundry occupied previously across Whitechapel Road.
Perhaps a decent map is required here to give a better understanding to the area and situation.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3595
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Hi AP
Sadly, I tend to be all at sea when it comes to maps etc. I can find my way around a chess board in my sleep, but I'm so visually unobservant that I once forgot what colour my eyes were, and had to look in a mirror to check.
However, I intend to give myself a Christmas treat by buying one of those maps advertised on Casebook - the ones that show every pump and street lamp.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 5:46 pm: | |
Funny how paths cross sometimes.I have been going for about ten years at least to an Art Shop/Warehouse which was resited from just off Brick Lane to the above mentioned Plumbers Row a couple of years ago.I was amazed to discover that this was the same Plumbers Row that stands at right angles to Mulberry Street of Pizer fame
and adjacent to Fieldgate Street and parallel to Greenfields Street-all connected to the Kosminski
family.Directly across the road too from where Black Lion Square used to be.And now I discover that there is this very ancient but still operating Bell making place right next door[and linked to yet another famous suspect]-must get over there early in the New Year and book a Saturday morning visit!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3598
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 6:21 am: | |
AP, haven't yet found the photographer, but did find a John R Haynes, general labourer, living St Paul Deptford with wife and two daughters. All born England, but wife and one of the daughters named Philadelphia.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1557
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:45 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, I shall ask for one of those maps for Christmas as well.
My luck with the Haynes is less than your own.
During the LVP the New York Haynes' were very big in the emerging art of photography, and also makers of fine string instuments which today command a veritable fortune... but as I think you know I'm unsure about the relevance of the New York or Philadelphian Haynes'.
With the Taylors as picture framers and all things artistic I've had a bit more luck. Going back to the 15th C. there is a branch of the family employed by the king as 'picture frame makers' in Middlesex:
'but for Lord Middlesex his role extended to arranging picture framing so that in August 1639 he is to be found contracting that Zachary Taylor, a wood carver in the King's employ, would produce a picture frame 'of the Right Hon.ble Lady Contes of Midellsex pictor' for £6, and that Taylor's long-time associate, the painter Matthew Goodricke, would colour and gild the frame for a further £6. This carved, coloured and gilt frame, costing the great sum of £12 in all, must have been very rich .' |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 12:56 pm: | |
But I did find this obscure reference, and was struck by fact that this John Haynes - police official - obviously ended his employment in 1887... so just a very slim chance that it is the John Haynes - police official - who surfaced in London in 1888 and dished the dirt on Cream?
'In the early 1860's, the Colony of British Columbia established a station at Osoyoos Lake near the American Border. This was a strategic point for a number of transportation routes. W.H. Lowe worked as Chief Constable, Gold Commissioner, Acting Magistrate and Assistant Collector of Customs from 1862 to 1872. John Carmichael Haynes served variously as a Member of the Colonial Legislative Assembly, Gold Commissioner, a Justice of the Peace, and an Assistant Collector of Customs. Lowe and Haynes were responsible for upholding the law in the Southern Kootenay area, the Boundary Country, the Okanagan Valley and the Similkameen Valley. British Columbia became a Canadian province when it joined the Dominion of Canada in 1871. Summary. .Penticton Court House records include two hand written volumes, 1867-1887. One is a letter book of H.W. (William Hamilton) Lowe and J.C. (John Carmichael) Haynes containing copies of correspondence and reports sent to the British Colonial Government Office and the Canadian Government, 1862-1872. The second volume is a case book kept by Justice J.C. Haynes for the Osoyoos Lake Police Court of the District of Yale Country Court, 1867-1887.' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3599
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 5:13 pm: | |
Interesting, AP, although Cream was a bit later than 88, wasn’t he?
Anyway, I’m posting the two John Haynes households from BC in the Canadian 1881 census. Note the mixed bag of religions in the second.
Name Marital Status Gender Ethnic Origin Age Birthplace Occupation Religion
John HAINS
Male Irish 52 USA Farmer Protestant
Nelson HAINS
Male Irish 13 USA Protestant
Minnie HAINS
Female Irish 11 British Columbia Protestant
Lilly HAINS
Female Irish 6 USA Protestant
Maria HAINS
Female Irish <1 Born: Nov; 6/12 British Columbia Protestant
Source Information:
Census Place Clinton & Lillooet, Cariboo, British Columbia
Family History Library Film 1375920
NA Film Number C-13284
District 188
Sub-district E
Division 1
Page Number 12
Household Number 75
Name Marital Status Gender Ethnic Origin Age Birthplace Occupation Religion
John C. HAYNES
M Male Irish 48 Ireland Stock Raiser Church of England
Emily J. HAYNES
M Female English 29 England Catholic
Fairfax HAYNES
Male Irish 9 British Columbia Church of England
Valentino HAYNES
Male Irish 5 British Columbia Church of England
Hester Emily HAYNES
Female Irish 3 British Columbia Catholic
William Howe HAYNES
Male Irish 1 British Columbia Church of England
Irene Margaret HAYNES
Female Irish <1 Born: Feb; 5/12 British Columbia Catholic
Mary HAYNES
Female Irish 14 British Columbia Catholic
John HAYNES
Male Irish 12 British Columbia Catholic
Source Information:
Census Place Osoyoos, Yale, British Columbia
Family History Library Film 1375921
NA Film Number C-13285
District 189
Sub-district D
Page Number 5
Household Number 33
Also, the surname spelling, middle initial, and Osoyoos connection favour the second – although “stock raiser” seems not to go with this being the man.
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1559
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 04, 2004 - 5:47 pm: | |
Yes Robert, the religious mix is interesting but also perhaps of the time?
There is a definite smell to the gold and the connection with Haynes.
Go wherever you want in the world - during the LVP - and you will find a Haynes involved with a gold rush, South Africa, Canada, America, New Zealand, Australia and just about everywhere else. In fact the modern Haynes family still dominate the gold mining and production facilities in many countries of the world.
It is my belief that this modern domination came about through the appointment of John Haynes in BC in the example I have shown. He crossed the border often and had a lot of gold mining interests down south, towns and mines were named after him and he established exchanges and counting houses where gold was king, just as he was, as a representative of the Crown and Colony.
Our knowledge of the period is still weak, but I believe time will show that such individuals moved borders and continents as you play chess.
There is no doubt in my mind that when TTC set ship for NZ and OZ he had gold in mind. It was the time for such things.
But Thomas found that women were easier to mine than gold.
Sensible fellow.
The interchange between gold diggers from America, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa was absolutely enormous, and I reckon the Haynes were in the forefront of this:
‘It was also in California that the techniques of gold mining were refined. Most of those eager prospectors who flocked to California had no idea of how to look for gold and the Sierra Nevada was their training ground. Miners, or those who had learned from the Californians, seemed to be always available thereafter to set newcomers straight. Most of the techniques had originated centuries before, but knowledge of them was not widespread – from gold panning to rockers to sluices, all were learned and relearned during the California Rush.
In the 1850s another substantial rush developed, this time to Australia. In 1851, it is reported that about half the male population of South Australia had departed for the goldfields. Although numerous 49er’s (participants in the early California rush) went to Australia, even more prospectors arrived from England. It is worth noting as well that the Australian discoveries were made by an Australian who had gone to California in the search for gold. He remembered seeing similar areas in Australia and returned home to make the first Australian discovery.’
That was taken from a site where John Haynes is sitting like Cool Hand Luke.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3602
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 6:31 am: | |
Hi AP
TTC may have been after gold. I just can't for the life of me see why he would get married into an apparently unremarkable family almost the moment he arrived. There'll be a reason, though.
Just trying to make sense of the English Hayne family, here are the Free BMD references to Hayne of Oxfordshire. There are one or two interesting things here - mentions of a John Samuel Hayne, also of Witney and Wallingford :
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Dec 1840
HAYNE John Samuel Henley
16 54
HAYNE Lucy Henley
16 54
Deaths Dec 1845
HAYNE David Bradfield
6 90
HAYNE George Banbury
16 16
HAYNE James Witney
16 83
Births Jun 1848
Hayne Lucy Ann Wallingford
6 *
Hayne Oliver Wantage
6 _71
Births Jun 1864
HAYNE Alice Kate Elizabeth Jemima Oxford
3a 564
HAYNE Arthur Headington
3a 555
HAYNE Harriet Elizabeth Headington
3a 556
Just as a preliminary hypothesis, until we get more info : perhaps John Lewis Hayne moved to America just after the birth of Clara. There he had two other children, Kate and John Samuel Hayne, before returning to England. At some point - either in the US or after their return - the shadow of TTC fell across Kate's path. Also, John Samuel Hayne got married, and they all settled down to live close by each other in Newington.
I was given an 1861 census loopup for 14 Albert St, Newington, and the Haynes weren't living there then.
Robert
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1560
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 5:26 pm: | |
Sorry Robert
I've been buried deep down in Hayne Land for days now.
For just as TTC must have had a reason for his sudden trip to NZ, then so did JLH for his trip to NY.
I haven't had much reward for my efforts.
Though interesting is that the Haynes family of New York actually do have their own graveyard, it's been dug over a few times since the LVP but there are still a few old bones there to chew over.
The worst aspect of my fruitless research is that the Cutbush and Haynes family appear to be both of Dutch origin, which does seem to mean that the connection may well be bloody roses, so you might have to don your gardening gloves yet.
I hope not.
The New York Haynes were into local militia, big time, they were involved in all the little wars that America fought in the LVP; they also featured - again big time - in the local rebellions in New York against tax and rents which got very bloody indeed.
The Haynes' also shipped out wholesale from New York for the California gold rush... splattered all over the shipping records.
I'd like to nail this American Hayne connection, Robert, as I feel I might be wasting valuable time when I could be drinking quality Spanish brandy.
I did get a very nice 'Thomas Haynes' bastard, born out of wedlock, and obviously shunned but I couldn't get a date for the varmint.
Oh, the burial ground is in Dutchess, New York.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3603
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 6:34 pm: | |
Hi AP
I can now get onto the US side of Ancestry (probably only temporarily). I can't see Kate in the censuses there.
Forgive me, AP, but I don't quite see why "Haynes" rather than "Hayne" seems so important.
Sorry for being a bit dense.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 514
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 6:52 pm: | |
Hi all,
Regarding Mr. John Haynes, I refer you to Angus McLaren's A PRESCRIPTION FOR MURDER: THE VICTORIAN SERIAL KILLINGS OF DR. THOMAS NEILL CREAM (Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, c. 1993). Haynes was not a photographer. Cream frequently got his photo taken by Mr. William Armistead at 129 Westminster Road. Haynes, and ex-policeman, roomed at the Armistead's home above the photo studio, and met Cream there. There is an intriguing aspect about Cream and his acquaintance, Mr. Haynes. The first person to note it was Richard Altick in VICTORIAN STUDIES IN SCARLET (New YORK: Norton, 1970). Haynes may have been connected with anti-Fenian investigations connected to Thomas Beach ("Major Henri Le Caron"), who had infiltrated the American Fenians. McLaren traces this a bit, and finds that Haynes really could not get very far reinstating himself into the Metropolitan Police based on his assistance in catching Cream. Haynes was (apparently) considered a lowlife type, and Sir Robert Anderson felt the police should have nothing to do with him.
Jeff |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1562
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 1:01 pm: | |
Sorry Robert
It is probably me good self that is dense, just like in the 'Stoddart - Stoddard' business a few weeks back.
However with the 'Hayne' - 'Haynes' business I have never paid much attention to the 's', as I have seen so many times the name 'Hayne' transcribed as 'Haynes' and vice versa. Very often I have also seen 'Hayne' spelt that way in one generation and then 'Haine' in the next.
Perhaps this lack of attention is costing us dearly, and I shall try to be more correct in the future.
Thanks for that information, Jeff.
I for one am glad Haynes was not a photographer.
It's an interesting little connection. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 4:14 pm: | |
Robert
I've been going through the wills - sadly I left them at work so not sure which will it was now - but a 'counting house' was mentioned as inheritance, which does seem to imply that the Flood-Cutbush clan were bankers, as this is an early term for a bank.
How did these painters and glaziers become bankers with so much property?
A clue could also be in the will, with regard to the 'South Sea Annuties', as these were ill-fated shares in the ill-fated 'South Sea Bubble' con. Many wealthy families were party to the gigantic scam and improved their fortunes beyond their wildest dreams, until the bubble burst. But even as late as 1853 the annuties could be exchanged for government bonds.
An excellent site for a good look at Whitechapel Road in the LVP is the following:
www.census1891.com/rg12-279.htm
same address, but instead of '279' type in '280' for the rest of Roadside.
Very informative.
John Daubery, who was the 'doctor of law' in the said will, was much employed by the East India company.
Witnesses to the will such as 'Thomas Bilton Charlotte Stuart' and 'Jno Byron Hooper Osborn Stuart' leave me with the feeling that somebody, somewhere was having a laugh.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 5:09 pm: | |
Trying to get behind the chap who was sponsored by the Mears/Floods & Cutbush's for the position at the London Hospital, a certain Thomas Jeremiah Armiger.
He has certainly published books, and they are probably of a religious nature, as I have found him listed as such, but damned if I can find his books.
From a list of authors:
'Armiger, Thomas Jeremiah, M.D. 1844 London Hospital Medical College.'
Regarding the Cobbs - Cutbush connection in the wills I found this one very neat:
'CORN FACTORS
COBB JOHN, High st
CUTBUSH James, Kennington'
I also found this graveyard in Kent full of Taylors, Cutbush's, Cobbs and all manner of souls connected to this strange story, but I need to read that a bit more.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 5:21 pm: | |
AP,wasnt it Macnaghnten who had links with this East India tea company-I think he was overseer for his families tea plantations prior to becoming
Assistant Commissioner CID? Any chance there were family loyalties here bent on protecting the Cutbushes?
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3606
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
Thanks for all that, AP. I've only just got in, so will digest that (and hoprfully my bag of chips) overnight.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3609
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 4:15 am: | |
Hi AP
A year or so ago, before I subscribed to Ancestry, Free Cen was my only access to the 1891 census. It was of course very incomplete, and there seemed to be hardly anything on the JTR front, but I did find my great-grandfather. He lived at West Ham, but fortunately spent census night visiting his in-laws in Cornwall (for anyone with Cornwall and Devon links, I believe this was the bit they did first).
The thing with the witnesses I think was my attempt to reproduce the original punctuation (or rather lack of it) of the will - although I do occasionally throw in a full stop or comma because otherwise it can be a bit unclear.
I believe you mentioned a corn merchant connection once before, didn't you?
I found a possible Cutbush marriage to a Tonge. I say possible because it's one of those things with four names on the page.
By the way, I suddenly realised that I'd made an error in sending off for one of the wills - I asked for the will of Thomas Cutbush who died 1871 instead of 1877, which effectively meant I was asking for the will of a one year old baby.
I managed to ring up and change it in time.
I now have two sets of Cutbush details for Enfield for the 1851 census (thanks Mark). One of these is comparatively unimportant, as she was a domestic servant, but the other is as follows :
Enfield Town (no address)
Thomas Cutbush, 42, plumber employing 6 men, born Whitechapel
Ann, wife, 38, born Ilford, Essex
Sophia, daughter, 14
Ann E, daughter, 11
Clara, daughter, 7
Thomas J, son, 6
All children born Enfield
Plus Adelaide Lee, servant, unmarried, 19 born Enfield
Tha ages of the children tie in with the references I found for St Andrew Enfield (post of Nov 6th). The only thing is, there's no Clarissa, but instead there's a Clara. Perhaps Clara was used as a shortening of Clarissa - although her age seems to have been shortened by a year or two as well. From the ages of the children, plus father's forename and occupation, and the general location, I'd say that despite the middle initial being wrong, this is almost certainly TTC.
The question is, was TTC the grandson of Tom Flood Cutbush? From the codicil to Clarissa's will, plus the father's birthplace, plus, as Debra pointed out, a certain familiarity about the daughters' names, it seems to be a fair bet. Perhaps one of the wills will confirm this, or else a long trawl through the BMD registers and a process of elimination might finally sort out who's who.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 12:00 pm: | |
Cheers Robert
You are almost certainly right, and this is indeed TTC. I'm sure we will know 100% soon.
Yes, Robert, you are right. I earlier found one of the properties in Whitechapel Road belonging to the Flood-Cutbush family listed as a 'corn factor'.
Meanwhile here is a bit more background on the Josiah Taylor who has been vexing us:
'CAVELER, William. Select Specimens of Gothic Architecture, comprising the most approved examples in England, from the earliest to the latest date; forming a Complete Chronology of that admired style... London: M. Taylor (nephew and sucessor to the late Josiah Taylor), 1839.
4to (295 × 235 mm.), pp. xii, [13]-[104]. With engraved title and 79 plates (of which 6 double-page, counting as two, and one chromo), and 16-page publisher’s catalogue (8vo) bound in. Contemporary half morocco, spine lettered and ruled gilt, paper shelflabel. From the Fürstenberg library, with its usual stamp to title and final page. A fine copy, very fresh internally. Second edition (first published in four parts, 1835-6). ‘Mr. Taylor having purchased the Copyright of this Work, which has just been completed at great expense, begs to claim the attention of the Antiquary and of the Architectural Profession... At the suggestion of many Architectural Friends, the Specimens have been arranged according to their several periods; and a Table is added, in which is given the date and reign in which they were executed’ (from Taylor’s catalogue). The plates include details from Westminster Abbey, Canterbury and Rochester Cathedrals, St Augustine Monastery, Canterbury, Stone Church (Kent), Litcham Church (Norfolk), Magdalene College, Oxford, St Stephen’s Westminster and Temple Church.
£500
This item is listed on Bibliopoly by Simon Finch Rare Books; click here for further details.' |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 1:22 pm: | |
Thanks Natalia
the problem being that they all had links to the East India Company. It was the thing in the LVP.
The Mac Memo was almost certainly a 'whitewash', but exactly why we still have to discover. As Cutbush is the central core of the document I think it safe to assume that it concerned his immediate family. I always say to myself this little mantra:
'If Thomas Hayne Cutbush had not an uncle who was a senior inspector in Scotland Yard called Charles Henry Cutbush then the Macnaghten memo would never have been written.'
This though simple - like most mantras - is a vital truth.
Meanwhile I've been digging away in my Kentish graveyard and have now unearthed a 'Hayne' to go with my 'Cutbush', 'Cobb' and enough Taylors to make me a new suit.
Thirsty work!
Off to the 'Gravedigger's Arms' for a few pints now. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 1:57 pm: | |
Robert,
Wills again.
Reading through TFC’s will I was amused to see that his marriage to his third wife Elizabeth was never apparently consummated, much to his obvious anger and frustration. Every time he tried it on she left the room.
Serves him right, the old bounder!
Did you get a better reading of his will?
I’m still interested in the properties that are missing or wrongly transcribed.
Also do we know who Ann Cutbush - Clarissa’s grand daughter - married in the end? As the properties on Whitechapel Road eventually fell to her, and the married name might give us an insight into what became of the properties.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1568
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 2:16 pm: | |
Robert
a little more on the 'Davenant Foundation School' which you happened upon by chance and then found a 'Flood' connection.
Quite right, my dear fellow!
'During the 18th century the school, which enjoyed an income of over £500 a year, appears to have accepted children at the age of eight, educated and clothed them to the age of fourteen, and then apprenticed them to masters or mistresses who were of good character, Anglicans, and in useful trades. (Footnote 64) Between 1783 and 1830 the school received a score of gifts totalling over £5,000. Of these the most munificent was the sum of £1,000 from Luke Flood, a former treasurer of the trustees, the interest on which was to be distributed annually among such old boys as were able to furnish proof that they had completed their apprenticeships satisfactorily and attended divine worship regularly
From: British History Online
Source: Schools: Davenant Foundation Grammar School. A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume I, J.S. Cockburn, H.P.F. King, K.G.T. McDonnell (Editors) (1969).
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22130
Date: 07/12/2004' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3611
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
Hi AP
Thanks for the info. The National Archives, unprompted by me, did a re-scan of TFC's will, but I haven't got around to going through it yet.
I'll try to find out what happened to Ann.
I don't really see how THC could possibly have been a nephew of CHC. I suspect that there was some sort of blood relationship, but I don't know what it was. However, unless Sir Melville was completely wrong, I suspect that Tom simply called CHC Uncle because he saw a lot of him, and they were close.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 5:50 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, you have long voiced the opinion that THC could not have been the nephew of CHC, and then when I'm in me cups I say 'well, he must have been his son then.'
I'll stand by my original estimation of all this.
Incest.
Somewhere along the electricity of life, a fuse not yet fitted got a spark.
Hence 1888. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3614
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 6:39 pm: | |
Hi AP
Ann is a bit of a mystery. Did not Clarissa in her codicil say that TFC was to have the property during his lifetime, but afterwards it was to go to Ann? And yet we find TFC in his will passing it on as if it were his.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 7:03 pm: | |
The world of these Cutbushes,Haynes,Cobbs and Taylors is weird and wonderful-it reminds me of the world of Samuel Palmer-we are looking at it in a flood of mysterious light,a sort of capsule their entire lives too from conception to dust-except that we cant quite get a hold on the conception or rather who conceived who !
Natalia |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 11:21 am: | |
Yes, Robert, the property was to be eventually passed down to Ann, according to Clarissa's will.
Perhaps she fell down the stairs?
Still on wills. I think it is also in Clarissa's will that the property 'Star Court' is mentioned?
Interesting that one of the last known residences of Martha Tabram before her murder was 'Star Court'.
I found this in Tom Cullen's 'Crimes and Times of Jack the Ripper' which I am presently reading again.
Cullen also mentions the interesting and quite informative fact that in 1888 there was a small waxworks museum directly opposite The London Hospital on Whitechapel Road, and within a few hours of Annie Chapman's death the following was on very public display:
'Horrible Whitechapel Murders! - See the George Yard, Buck's Row, Hanbury Street Victims!'
The police shut the place down shortly after, claiming that it offended public decency.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 2:01 pm: | |
Robert, I been busy at the Old Bailey all day.
The first reference to a ‘Hayne’ is very provoking, considering the Flood-Cutbush link to the South Seas Annuities. This Hayne is a big fish indeed, a sort of ‘super-clerk’, and I would guess that this chap is most likely the obscure connection we seek between the clans.
Old Bailey 1747
103. + Hugh Pelling , of the Parish of St Martin Outwich, in the Ward of Broad-street, London , Gent. was indicted for feloniously forging a certain Warrant, or Order, to defraud the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great Britain , trading to the South-Seas , &c. and for publishing the same , knowing it to be forged. Which Indictment is as follows:
London to wit, the King against Pelling.
THE Jurors for our Sovereign Lord, upon their Oath, present that one Daniel Hayne , on the 21st Day of January, in the Year of Our Lord, 1744, and in the 18th Year of the Reign of Our Sovereign Lord George the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King Defender of the Faith, and so forth; and long before was, and still is, one of the Clerks of the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great Britain , trading to the South Seas, and other Parts of America ; and for encouraging the Fishery; and then and long before was, and hath ever since been, entrusted and employed by the Governor and Company aforesaid, to make out and sign Warrants or Orders for the Payment of Money, payable by the said Governor and Company, to wit, at London , that is to say, at the Parish of St Martin, Outwich, in the Ward of Broad-street, in London aforesaid
Incidentally, you will remember the list of the ‘King’s Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and terminer’ wherein I found a Luke Flood? Well, here’s a ‘Hayne’:
Old Bailey 1749
THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE
King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Goal Delivery held for the City of London, &c.
BEFORE the Right Honourable Sir SAMUEL PENNANT , Knt. Lord Mayor of the City of London, the Honourable Sir THOMAS DENNISON , Knt. the Honourable Sir THOMAS ABNEY , Knt. the Honourable Mr. Baron CLIVE , RICHARD ADAMS , Esq; Recorder, and others of His Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer for the City of London, and Justices of Goal-Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City and County of Middlesex.
John Long , Joseph Smith , George Bailey , James Wright , Joseph Phillips , James Allen , Richard Woodyere , Thomas Holbrook , Benjamin Tony , Richard Kitcher ,
Richard Smith , Richard Curson , William Edwards , John Pyke , William Hayne , William Vuljam , Thomas Spicer , Richard Proffer , John Webb , Thomas Pow , Christopher Jennings , James Benbrick ,
And then here is Josiah Taylor occupying the same position:
Old Bailey 1748
THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE
King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol Delivery held for the City of London, &c.
BEFORE the Right Honourable Sir WILLIAM CALVERT , Knt. Lord Mayor of the City of London, the Honourable Sir THOMAS DENISON , Knt. the Honourable Sir THOMAS ABNEY , Knt. the Honourable Mr Baron CLIVE , Sir JOHN STRACEY , Knt. Recorder, and others of His Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer for the City of London, and Justices of Goal-Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City, and County of Middlesex.
Peter Moulson , John Baron , Samuel Henderson , Francis Naldor , Josiah Taylor , John Twells , St. John Burrough, William Lasoffe , William Hornblower , Solomon Pelitior , Daniel Bridge , John Langworthy ,
Edward Cooper , William Chishohn , James Bagnall , Samuel Jaumard , Thomas Pickett , Peter Deschampus , John Parker , John Long , Thomas Rose , John Hoben , William Sarsfield , John Lowry ,
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3620
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
You've been very busy, AP. Some nice finds there. I'll have to try and catch up when i can. Bit hectic here at the moment.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:35 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
No worries, it is usually me that has to play catch up.
I found this next one of interest, I suppose partly from the old legend that JtR was passing polished farthings off as silver to unsuspecting whores.
The full transcript of this trial is easily available, and believe me, this particular branch of the Flood family was heavily involved - the women folk also - and they were ‘coining’ hundreds of farthings on a daily basis and then passing them off as silver throughout the parish on a nightly basis. The techniques were actually quite advanced and subtle.
Old Bailey 1743
+ 70, 71. Charles Flood , and Charles Bargame , were indicted, for that they not having the Fear of God, nor weighing the Duty of their Allegiance, &c. but devising and intending our Lord the King, and his people, craftily, falsely, unlawfully, deceitfully, feloniously, and traiterously , to deceive and defraud, after the 29th Day of September, 1742. to wit, on the 1st Day of December, in the 6th Year of his Majesty's Reign , with Force and Arms, at the parish of St. Giles's in the Fields, in the County of Middlesex, craftily, falsely, unlawfully, deceitfully, feloniously, and traiterously, did fill, and with certain Materials, producing the Colour of Silver, did wash and colour two pieces of Brass Money of this Realm, called Farthings, with Intent to make each of the said pieces resemble, look like, and pass for, a lawful piece of Silver Coin of this Realm, called a Six-pence: The Indictment farther charged them, that they on the 1st Day of December, &c. did alter the Impression on each Side of two Farthings, with the like Intent; and the Indictment did likewise set forth, that they on the said first Day of December, &c. did wash and colour the said two Farthings, with the Intent as before; and this was laid to be against the Duty of their Allegiance, against the peace of the King, and against the Form of the Statute.
Just a small one that might help to place the Flood clan in their time. I have a vastly more complicated one which I am still reading.
Old Bailey 1764
160. (M.) Thomas Brown was indicted for stealing six pewter pots, value 5 s. the property of John Flood , Feb. 20. +
Margaret Flood . My husband's name is John: We keep the Castle and Falcon in Holborn. The prisoner and a woman came in and called for a pint of beer; they drank it and called for another; when we lighted up candles he moved from the window near the fire, and called for a pint of hot; then came in a young man, and called the prisoner Mr. Brown, and asked him how he did; then he moved from the fire, and came and sat in seat overagainst the fire for a little time; then he came and sat against the middle seat where the pots lay; I was then called away; when I returned, the child told me he was putting pots into his pocket; he was then writing with a piece of chalk upon the table; I said, What is become of the pots that were here? I touched his coat and felt something heavy in it; I said, You villain, you've robbed me; we searched, and took two quart pots and a penny pot out of one pocket, and two quart pots and a penny pot out of the other; (produced in court) Here are our names upon them: They were taken from among more, that were some lying on the table, and some on a shelf by them.
Q. Was it possible that his pockets could contain two quarts and a penny pot each?
M. Flood. My Lord, his coat was almost all pocket.
Prisoner's Defence.
I don't know how they came into my pocket; I believe they were put in by the company that were there; I was very much in liquor.
M. Flood. There was nobody sitting in that seat but himself.
Guilty. T.
The ‘T’ at the end of the trial proceedings means the poor old buggar was transported to Australia.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3624
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:45 pm: | |
Hi AP
When searching for Floods, I seem to remember findingthat there were rich Floods and poor Floods, the latter being Irish, I think. Several of them burned to death in a house in Dagget(?) Street, which made me wonder whether this was an early version of Dorset Street (I think Paul Begg says one version was Datchet Street?) Sorry, going from memory here.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 6:03 pm: | |
Robert, if you read the full trial transcript you will see that the Flood's concerned with the 'coinage' hated the Irish. They dobbed them in all the time.
Meanwhile here is your Thomas Holbrook, of Luke Flood charity fame, sitting nicely with his 'brothers':
THE PROCEEDINGS ON THE
King's Commissions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Goal Delivery held for the City of London, &c.
BEFORE the Right Honourable Sir SAMUEL PENNANT , Knt. Lord Mayor of the City of London, the Honourable Sir THOMAS DENNISON , Knt. the Honourable Sir THOMAS ABNEY , Knt. the Honourable Mr. Baron CLIVE , RICHARD ADAMS , Esq; Recorder, and others of His Majesty's Justices of Oyer and Terminer for the City of London, and Justices of Goal-Delivery of Newgate, holden for the said City and County of Middlesex.
John Long , Joseph Smith , George Bailey , James Wright , Joseph Phillips , James Allen , Richard Woodyere , Thomas Holbrook , Benjamin Tony , Richard Kitcher ,
Richard Smith , Richard Curson , William Edwards , John Pyke , William Hayne , William Vuljam , Thomas Spicer , Richard Proffer , John Webb , Thomas Pow , Christopher Jennings , James Benbrick
Note the 'Hayne'.
Which I missed first time around. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1576
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:31 pm: | |
Robert
I know you hate the ‘Titchmarsh’ factor in the Cutbush family, but uncle Charles liked the smell of the roses:
HIGHGATE TUBE: highgate Station was opened in 1867, and was originally a railway station. The slope beside the station was used by Cutbush, the highgate Village nurseryman, to advertise to commuters who (hopefully) would be living in new houses with gardens to be planted.'
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:45 pm: | |
The mind boggles!How did he "advertize" his wares? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3636
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:57 pm: | |
You would think i could escape these rose-sniffers on the tube, but no : they bring their infernal shrubs there too.
"Thickets please. Show your thickets."
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 6:22 pm: | |
Brilliant Robert! Could think of a few regarding Bushes....but on second thoughts..no!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3640
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 6:02 am: | |
AP, thought you might be interested in these, from 1882 trades directory :
And under "Picture and Looking Glass Frame Makers" :
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1577
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:46 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
I'll check through those Mitre Square names tonight and see if they grow some.
One assumes that uncle Charles taught young Thomas the art of pruning but when the young horticulturist/horologist lost his pruning shears he took to the knife, and roses pruned thus do tend to die.
Natalie
I believe the Cutbush at Highgate used to plant out his prize specimens on the bank for all the commuters to see. He was so it seems famous for his bulbs. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 1:12 pm: | |
AP-as long as it was just flowers and not those
mushrooms! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1582
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 8:42 am: | |
Whilst meandering through ‘Taylor’ land I came upon this famous father and son:
‘Sir Robert Taylor (1714 – 1788) was a notable English architect of the mid-late 18th century.
Born at Woodford, Essex, Taylor followed in his father’s footsteps and started working as a stone-mason and sculptor. Despite some important commissions (including a bust of London merchant Christopher Emmott today held in the church of St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire), he enjoyed little success and turned instead to architecture, where, through hard work and not little talent, he became a leading architect of the time.
Among his earliest projects was Asgill House, built for a wealthy banker, Sir Charles Asgill, in Richmond-upon-Thames (circa 1760), and nearby Oak House. Through such connections, he came to be appointed as architect to the Bank of England until his death in 1788 (when he was succeeded by Sir John Soane). In 1769 he succeeded Sir William Chambers as Architect of the King's Works.
Other projects include:
Harleyford House, near Marlow, Buckinghamshire (1755)
Barlaston Hall, Staffordshire (1756-1758)
Trewithan House, Cornwall (1763-1764)
Danson Park Mansion, Bexley, Kent (1760-1768)
Chute Lodge, near Devizes, Wiltshire (1768)
Kevington Hall, near Orpington, Kent (1767-1769)
Swinford Bridge, over the River Thames at Eynsham (1769), plus Maidenhead road bridge (1777)
Beckenham Place, Kent (1773)
Clermont Lodge, Norfolk (1769-1775)
Ely House, Dover Street, Mayfair, London (1773-1776)
14 houses in Grafton Street, London
Gorhambury Manor, St Albans (1777)
Heveningham Hall (1778)
alterations to 10 Downing Street, London SW1 (c. 1780)
The Oaks, Carshalton, Surrey (c.1782)
alterations at The Grove, Chandler's Cross, Hertfordshire
Belfast Assembly Rooms, Belfast, Northern Ireland
Northmet House in Cannon Hill (today: Southgate House), near Arnos Grove, north London.
His pupils included John Nash, George Byfield and William Pilkington.
He had a son, Michael Angelo Taylor (1757-1834), who, as MP for Poole, became a Whig politician during the 1830s. Father and son were both buried in the church of St Martin-in-the-Fields in Trafalgar Square, London.
The Taylor Institution, Oxford University's centre for the study of medieval and modern European languages and literatures, takes its name from a bequest for that purpose from Sir Robert who left his fortune to the University.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Taylor_%28architect%29"
Sir Robert’s oddly named son seems of great interest, for Michael Angelo Taylor was something of a celebrity with strong connections to the Prince of Wales, so strong that his wife enjoyed an affair with HH. When one views the lady in question in Hoppner’s portrait - called ‘Miranda’ to save the blushes of the Taylor family - it is easy to understand why the Prince of Wales indulged himself.
‘But there is beauty, too rare and convincing beauty, in Hoppner's Miranda. Who was "Miranda"? All that the catalogue tells is that she was the wife of Michael Angelo Taylor, M.P. Michael Angelo, it may be added, was a member of Boodle's. That alone meant social distinction. But he was also an intimate acquaintance of the Prince Regent. On a memorable night in 1811, on the occasion of the drafting out the reply to the Address of the Houses of Parliament, George P.R. was kindly put to bed by his solicitous companions, and Michael Angelo wrote out the princely response, while Sheridan and William Adam "paced opposite sides of the room till each could find an opportunity of whispering to Michael that the other was the damnedest rogue existing." As for Mrs. Michael, she was persona gratissima at Carlton House, where the Prince, half drunk or half sober, radiated the glory of the world. She might have been a sister of Mrs. Jane Middleton or of Nell Gwynne, rather than that Miranda whom Shakespeare drew in rainbow gold and touched with immortality. But even as an impossible Miranda she is well worthy the homage of admiration. As a painting, this is one of Hoppner's triumphs. Its beauty, its grace, its freedom, its charm, are unmistakable. Here, and in at least a score of other canvases on the line of his ablest achievement, he proves what a high place in English art is his due--a long-deferred and even now not often frankly granted due.’
As well as being a ‘lush’, the right honourable Michael Angelo Taylor occasionally sat on a committee, as in this case where he concerns himself with 1832 Madhouse Acts:
‘Three MPs appointed to the Select Committee: Byng, a Middlesex MP; Pallmer, a Surrey MP and a Michael Angelo Taylor, were also members of the County Inquiry (Mx RO minute 18.1.1827). Others, including the Home Secretary, Sturges Bourne, were members of West London select vestries, such as (St George's, Hanover Square) , that sent lunatics to pauper houses in East London.’
Let us hope that this lively branch of the Taylor family can be connected to the Floods and Cutbush’s, as it would certainly enliven the research. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 5:09 pm: | |
I’m pleased to say there are connections to these famous Taylors, albeit tenuous at the moment.
Sir Robert Taylor - the architect of the king’s work - designed and built ‘Asgill’ at Richmond - on the site of a former royal palace - for Sir Charles Asgill, Lord Mayor of London, and the chief ‘Oyer’ of the Old Bailey. If one examines the proceedings of the Old Bailey one will quickly see that Sir Charles Asgill is the chief of every session previously posted with the names of Flood and Taylor (and others).
Sir Charles Asgill was also a great supporter of the Almshouses of Whitechapel. I think it is here that a connection to the Flood family will be found.
Sir Robert Taylor’s son, Michael Angelo Taylor MP, was intimately involved with progressive work in Whitechapel, things such as lighting, sanitation, paving and the correct control of lunatics were his delight.
Cockneys today still refer to his pavements as ‘Michael Angelo’s’.
I also note that the Flood family did possess the powers and attorney of actual ‘arrest’ in criminal cases, as did the Asgill family.
On that subject I have two Old Bailey cases where in one a Flood has been the victim of a crime, then has been the arresting officer and finally sat in judgement of the crime; and then in the second case Sir Charles Asgill having been robbed of some money and teas from his ‘counting house’ - remember the Flood’s counting house - arrests the criminals and then sits in judgement of them.
That’s what I call a justice system.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3651
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 5:34 pm: | |
Hi AP
Yes, it's like the old JP system where you could poach a rabbit from the local squire's estate, turn up in court, and find the local squire is the JP in charge of your case.
I think the do-gooding angle is a very good bet for a connection.
Going back to plumbers, painters and glaziers and how they were more like artists than workmen, the following man was a PPG and seems to have been well-off.
Mar 30th 1840
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 7:15 am: | |
Nice little find you got there, Robert.
My congrats!
Yes, a very well-off plumber is this Cutbush.
The 'Bird cage House' sounds interesting.
I shall follow this up tonight. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
Robert
I been busy.
Your ‘Bird Cage House’ belonging to Thomas Cutbush is indeed a fine find.
Tick-Tock, Robert, it’s them pesky clocks again.
A few quotes:
‘A volume on cottage and farmhouse furniture would be incomplete without some reference to long-case clocks. At the beginning of the eighteenth century this type of clock had become popular. The early brass-bracket clock known as " Cromwellian," varying from six to ten inches in height, had a spring.
The "lantern" or "bird-cage" clocks (wall clocks from which the pendulum and weights hung unprotected) lasted till about 168o, when the first long-case type came into use. With the use of the long pendulum and revolving drums, around which catgut was wound to support the heavy weights, these unprotected parts required a wooden case.
The early examples with cases exhibiting fine marquetry are outside the scope of the class of furniture now under consideration. In such specimens there is frequently a round or oval opening covered with glass in the centre of the panel.’
‘Bird-Cage Clocks. The bird-cage or so-called "lantern" clocks of the 16th and 17th centuries were among the earliest clocks in use in England for domestic purposes. They were made of brass, about ten inches high and were set upon a bracket on the wall, with the weights hung upon cord or chain passing through openings in the shelf. The dial, at first, had but one hand with the hour spaces divided into fifths. About the middle of the 17th century the "bob" (short) pendulum superseded the crown-wheel escapement controlled by a spring, which was a decided improvement. The clocks ran for not more than thirty hours. The dials were usually of engraved brass and stood out beyond the frame which was surmounted by a bell. These clocks were of English design and all of the makers of clocks of that early period followed identically the one design. They continued in use for more than a century and some of them were brought to this country by the early settlers.’
This last is an American reference, and I hope that it will be recalled that last year I found and posted a ‘Cutbush’ Maidstone ‘Bird Cage ‘clock that had been imported into the States sometime in the 17th C. and was available for about £5000.
Here is a cheaper Kentish version of the same, it went for about a grand:
‘Description: A fine small and rare early 18th century English wall clock with alarum facility by Thomas Vennall of Smarden (Kent), the 'birdcage' movement with anchor escapement and verge alarum system. This attractive and small clock is suspended on an oak bracket and operates for 30 hours on one wind of the chain. It is completely original and has been overhauled. Its condition is 'excellent'.’
As was your find, Robert.
I’m still working on it. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1586
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:21 pm: | |
I'll repost one of the original Cutbush clocks just to get things into view:
'How did David Johnson Gardiner come upon this idea of “Maidstone”? The Gardiners still own a lovely brass, spring-driven mantle clock - 15 inches high by 6 inches wide - on whose face is engraved in large letters, “John Cutbush, Maidstone”.[9] The Cutbush family were clock makers in Maidstone about the beginning of the 1700's and were the first to use the new spring driven clock works. These were, of course, au courant. The Gardiners as local gentry and merchants, wanted the most modern and fashionable objects in their homes. The clock was possibly purchased by the third proprietor, John Gardiner (1661-1738). David Johnson Gardiner had very little Gardiner resources to base his writings on.'
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3659
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:23 pm: | |
Thanks AP. i believe that this was the Cutbush whose widow got into debt after his demise, and there was then a legal case as to how much of his estate was liable. I believe I have his will, and a judgment on the case from the Supreme Court library.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1587
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:49 pm: | |
I hope you have, Robert.
Would love to see the situation.
Important to note here, I think, is that the Cutbush family of Maidstone were the very first to use the new fangled spring driven clock works - we today may not see the importance of this but in the 1700's this was the very forefront of technology and immense fortunes rested upon such things - which has always led me to believe that the Cutbush family may well have had the original edge on Lord Grimthrope when it came to gravity escapement movements.
The Cutbush family knew the quality of time.
Just think of Mitre Square. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3664
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 11:08 am: | |
AP, these aren't the ones you mean but I thought I'd post them because of the newington and clock connections.
Vicar General
Peculiar Jurisdiction - ref. AA/V/H
Court Records: Testamentary Records: Registers of Wills
FILE - Register of Wills: Croydon and Shoreham - ref. AA/V/H/97/1 - date: 1664-1679
item: John Gardiner, Bachelor, St. Mary Newington Surrey - ref. AA/V/H/97/1/43v - date: 16 Oct. 1665
FILE - Register of Wills - ref. AA/V/H/97/6 - date: 1722-1738
item: John Gardiner, Watchmaker, Croydon, Surrey - ref. AA/V/H/97/6/534 - date: 1 Sept
Robert
|
Robert W. House
Detective Sergeant
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 128
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
I have a photo of the Whitechapel Bell foundry on my website. Click here if you want to see it.
Rob |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
