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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1530
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 5:57 pm: |       |
Thanks Natalie
and nice to hear from you.
I'm busy studying the 'Bastard's Index' for Chelsea at the moment.
It does appear that apprentices were forced to go to court to prove their loyalty to their employers, and were considered 'bastards' before they did so.
The same court dealt with them.
I can find the salt but not this pesky Pepper. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1531
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 1:22 pm: | |
Robert
extremely interesting posts them last two, my thanks for them. I was aware that St Lukes, Chelsea, was on some kind of borderline regarding this issue, as I have seen it described in various forms, the most common being 'liberal Catholic', but I wasn't fully aware of the parlous situation regarding Catholic infiltration of the congregation and clergy. This is dramatic stuff indeed, and one almost sees the seeds of uncle Charles' sprouting madness in the words of the address from the concerned congregation 'these fearful evils that must be repressed and put down'.
Enter uncle Charles, service pistol ablazing.
Anyways I'll see what else I can flush out of the bushes concerning this, and the info you caught about Josiah Taylor.
He had three wealthy daughters so the Floods and Cutbush's would have liked him... a great deal.
A reference which I have found which leaves me completely baffled is thus:
'W. Mears at the Lamb without Temple Bar'.
Any ideas, Robert?
And the 'Court of Arches' in connection with Cutbush? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3550
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 2:22 pm: | |
Hi AP
I'm sure I've seen the Court of Arches mentioned, but I can't put my finger on it.
Do you have a rough date for W Mears? I have found references to railways, architecture, and even flower shows.
The only W Pepper I could find seemed to be associated with late 19th cent Pennsylvania. It was a very brief reference, so I'm not sure just what he was.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 278
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 2:31 pm: | |
Hi AP
Temple Bar was a large gateway which stood in Fleet Street and divided it from The Strand, so showing the boundary of the City of London.
I guess that without Temple Bar would meen to be on the Strand side rather than the city side.
The Lamb again I guess would probably have been a pub. The Temple Bar no longer stands, but in its place is an obolisk close to the junction of Fleet Street and Chancery Lane. The original Temple Bar now stands in a field in Hertfordshire.
Best Regards
John Savage |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 3:16 pm: | |
Hi AP
I should have added that Court of Arches is something to do with the Church, Catholic I think.
John Savage |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1532
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 4:17 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, I've checked again, the date for the reference was 1720, very early but I was still intrigued. Now I think a bit more about it, I do believe it was a legend inscribed on a bell I found in Whitechapel.
Regarding bells, I do find that there has been a long connection between Brisbane - where Debra found the deeds for the Roadside property - and bells made in Whitechapel, long preceeding the Mears Foundry, though they later repaired them.
So that sort of rings a peal.
Brisbane in fact had the first bells capable of making a proper 'peal' outside of Europe and the Americas, made in Whitechapel of course, and our favourite son, TTC, was around. 'Taylor' bells were around as well, but the Whitechapel Foundry had the edge.
While down under this is a 'Cutbush' that I finally managed to dig out of his grave by subscribing to some bloody Australian newspaper which I didn't want in the first place:
'Franklin Cutbush McMillan was born on 15 Oct 1868 in Uralla,Nsw. He died on 29 Apr 1932 in Campbelltown,Nsw. He was buried in Campbelltown Cemetery,Nsw. Franklin was employed as POLICE INSPECTOR'
I was looking for TTC and got a F.C.
He's not the one I wanted, but I do like the fact that he probably employed his service pistol in the pursuit of renegade Catholics.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1533
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 4:31 pm: | |
Thanks for that John, I'll delve further.
I don't know about the 'Lamb' being a pub though, it does strike me that the reference has a Catholic element, and thus the 'Lamb' becomes a very diffrent creature.
Would the boundary that the Temple Bar made have been the distinction between the City of London police force and the Metropolitan?
Just a thought.
Yes, I did think the 'Court of Arches' related to religion. I'm still looking though.
Thanks again.
Was it your ancestor who designed and built St Lukes, Chelsea? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1534
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
Sorry chaps, it was the brandy again.
Mears was a cheapskate publisher of socially acceptable porn in the 18th century.
The source I found refused to be copied, and John was right, it was a pub.
I'm in there now.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1535
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 4:47 pm: | |
Court of Arches.
All to do with wills, like when a person owned properties in different parishes then settlement to surviving relatives had to be made through a central authority. Very relevant to the topic we discuss.
'163. THE PROCESS BOOKS OF THE COURT OF ARCHES AT LAMBETH PALACE LIBRARY, 1660-1893.
Mansell/Center for Research Libraries.
12,946 microfiches.
Hardcopy index.
Cases from 1660 to 1913 are listed in alphabetical order of plaintiff followed by type of case, the court of first instance, the date of the judgement ( where known ), and references to relevant documents.
Document Supply shelfmark: MFE 128'
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3555
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 5:44 pm: | |
Hi AP
Maybe that could be a route to finding out more about the court case in the early 1890s. I only caught the tail end of it - apparently not all cases were copied up, and the library told me that that was all they had. Of course, there was more to the case than the bit I had.
Perhaps the Land Registry would be worth trying too.
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 2:48 pm: | |
Hi Robert and AP
Re Josiah Taylor
I think he may be connected to Luke Flood through the Page family again.
Luke Flood's daughter Mary Ann married Samuel Page, and in a similar timeframe Luke Flood's son, Luke Thomas Flood married a Caroline Page ( his 1st wife)and then I found a Josiah Taylor also marrying a Page girl around the same time;
>>Taylor, Josiah. Married on Saturday last [11 Feb] Mr. Josiah Taylor, bookseller, Holborn, to Miss Page, of King-street (LT 15 Feb 1792). See also Isaac Taylor.<<
and a little bit more on the bookseller Josiah Taylor, although I think the Josiah Taylor mentioned in the marriage above may be of the same generation as Isaac ( below) maybe a brother and not the son Josiah mentoned below.;
>>Taylor, Isaac. Partnership between Isaac Taylor and Josiah Taylor, his son, of No. 56, High Holborn, booksellers, was dissolved Dec. 25, 1797. Josiah Taylor to discharge all debts (LG 17 Feb 1798)
TAYLOR, Isaac I, engraver and bookseller, Holles Street, Clare Market 1765-70; Bible and Crown, Holborn 1772-74; Chancery Lane 1773; 306, near Chancery Lane, Holborn 1771k1780. B. 13 Dec. 1730, Worcester; d. 17 Oct. 1807, Edmonton. In early life brassfounder, silversmith and surveyor. To London at first as silversmith 1752. Worked for Thomas Jefferys under whom he executed plates for the Gentleman's Magazinc. Also produced book illustrations including plates for Chambers's Cyclopaedia and many other works. Fellow Society of Artists 1765, secretary 1774. Friend of Goldsmith, Bartolozzi, Fuseli, Thomas Bewick etc. Bible and Crown formerly premises of A. and Henry Webly. Retired to Edmonton soon after 1780. Also portrait painter. Exhibited Society of Artists 1765-80. Brother James, engraver q.v. Sons Charles, engraver, Isaac II, engraver and Josiah publisher qq.v. DNB; Thieme and Becker; Graves.
TAYLOR, Isaac II, engraver, Holborn 1777-78; near the Church, Islington 1780-83; Red Lion Street, Holborn 1783-86. B. 30 Jan. 1759, London s. of Isaac I; d. 12 Dec. 1829, Ongar. Ed. Brentford Grammar School. Engraver in father's studio where he worked on plates for Rees's Cyclopaedia Engr. set of subjects specially commissioned by him from Richard Smirke 1781. Painted and engr. set of views near Thames. Left London for Lavenham June 1786. Worked for Boydell's Shakspeare and other publications. Moved to Colchester as nonconformist minister 1796. Moved to Ongar 1810. Produced a series of instructional books for children, many illustrated by himself. Exhibited Society of Artists 1777-90. Brothers Charles, engraver and Josiah, publisher qq.v. DNB; Thieme and Becker; Graves.<<
Debra
Robert thanks for giving me John Haynes middle name,I have turned up quite a few John Lewis Haynes surprisingly, but haven't found the right one yet! |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
Hi Robert and AP
There has been such a lot found by you two over the last couple of days that I am playing catch up at the moment!
Thanks very much for posting the Cutbush information Robert, it's hard to check the archives sometimes to see if things have been found before as the search engine doesn't always pick all the relevant posts up.
With this in mind I have been compiling a family tree with the information that has been coming through the thread, It started off as a Cutbush family tree, but I have extended it to show the relationship to the Flood's too, and I have put it on to the world connect site ( I hope neither of you minds, please let me know if you do!) because I thought it would be easier for everyone to look at there, with the added bonus that as a genealogical website you might get people tracing the same family to add to the records.
Also I did find a Josiah Taylor who was a publisher in London, but have temporarily mislaid the information!
this is the URL for the family tree;
http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=cut123
It is not completely up to date yet though.
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3556
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 7:09 am: | |
Hi Debra
Thanks so much for that. I've been to your URL, and it's fantastic!
The Josiah Taylor bookseller of 50something High Holborn (the number seems to move around a bit) seems to have published some scientific works - the principles of heat, mechanics etc - although his establishment is descibed as an architectural library. Still, architecture requires a great deal of science.
I hope the banker Josiah turns out to be connected, because of Luke Thomas Flood's banking activities, and also, as AP would say, because of his daughters. The following item from Nov 8th 1823, shows the house to have been in Pall Mall ;
For Jan 26th 1841 there ia a Josiah taylor picture dealer of Pall Mall in the bankruptcy court, which may tie in with AP's art dealer theory.
Going back to the bookseller Josiah, it seems his nephew took over the business ;
SEPT 20th 1836
Finally here is the obit for Isaac Taylor, July 5th 1865.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 11:54 am: | |
Hi AP
Glad you found The Lamb, and yes Temple Bar would have been the boundary for the City/Met. police.
Sorry to say I have no ancestors who were known to build churches. More likely to have been in The Lamb on a Sunday than the church.
John Savage |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 1:10 pm: | |
Robert is absolutely right, Debra's link to the family tree is fantastic. As is the latest information Debra has been posting.
Robert as well, this gives me much to think about, and it is useful that these Taylors have such religious, artistic and literary interests.
One immediately thinks of the famous Janet Taylor.
I'm out tonight for a rare social event so probably won't recover for some days, but will be back soon. Meanwhile I'll digest and research all this new information that is 'flooding' in.
My thanks to all. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1537
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
This chap could also be a useful link, as a member of the Royal Society of Engravers:
'Engraver: TAYLOR, WILLIAM DEAN (London, 1794 - 1857)
Designer: LAWRENCE, SIR THOMAS
Date: 1827
Medium: ORIGINAL ENGRAVING
Publisher: COLNAGHI & SON, LONDON
Note: William Dean Taylor: An early British nineteenth century engraver, William Dean Taylor studied art in London at the Royal Academy Schools. Excelling at both portraits and figure studies, Taylor's first published engravings date from 1820. During the following thirty years he received many commissions to work for major London art publishers, such as Colnaghi.
Duke of Wellington (Sir Arthur Wellesley, 1769-1852) is now regarded as Taylor's greatest work of engraved art. Created shortly after Sir Thomas Lawrence completed the painting (which is now at Apsley House), Taylor's engraving immediately won popular acclaim. It is one of the finest contemporary engraved portraits of this distinguished Field-Marshal and Prime Minister that one can find.'
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
Some of the good people mentioned by Debra and Robert can be viewed here:
'Comments: ... Sir Herbert Taylor (1775-1839), Lieutenant-General. 1 portrait. Horace Taylor (1881-1934), Artist and poster designer. 3 portraits. Isaac Taylor (1759-1829), Nonconformist divine, writer and engraver. 1 portrait. Isaac Taylor (1787-1865), Writer and artist; eldest son of Ann and Isaac ...
Website: http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/a-z/sitT.asp |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1539
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 1:37 pm: | |
Well I never, 'twinkle, twinkle little star, how I wonder who you are':
'The Taylors of Ongar, were prodigiously talented artists, engravers, writers, philosophers and scientists.
Jane Taylor is known the world over as the author of Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, though it must be said that this was written before she came to Ongar.'
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3558
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 1:56 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. Tom, of course, preferred "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Bat".
Re booksellers, one thing that may or may not be relevant is that, if memory serves, one of the Stoddarts was a printer.
Something that may be even less relevant is that frozen chrysanthemums were imported from Wellington in the 90s.
Of course, we don't even know that he wasn't coming back from time to time (in the 70s at least).
Enjoy your social event, AP.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3559
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 5:48 pm: | |
Hi AP and Debra
When I was searching the A2A site for the house numbers mentioned in the lease, I got confused and put in 68 and 69 Whitechapel Rd instead of 63 and 64. Number 68 turned up this, to do with the Davenant school ;
Records of Davenant Foundation Grammar School, Essex.
Catalogue Ref. A/DAV
Creator(s):
Davenant Foundation School
Whitechapel Foundation School
Deeds
Thomas Holbrook's Charity
FILE - Deed of Grant - ref. A/DAV/I/14 - date: 9 Feb. 1858
[from Scope and Content] 68 Whitechapel Road
We know that Luke Flood Cutbush was involved in this project, but I’ll re-post the LFC reference together with Luke Flood references :
Creator(s):
Davenant Foundation School
Whitechapel Foundation School
Deeds
Tilbury Estate
FILE - Counterpart lease for 21 years - ref. A/DAV/I/4 - date: 8 May (53 Geo. III) 1813
[from Scope and Content] 1. Luke Flood esq.
FILE - Assignment of leasehold land and conveyance of freehold land in trust - ref. A/DAV/I/6 - date: 2 Jan. 1854
[from Scope and Content] Luke Flood Cutbush of Fieldgate Street, house painter
Thomas Holbrook's Charity
FILE - Draft memorial of Luke Flood and Thomas Barnes. - ref. A/DAV/I/12 - date: [c. 1813]
This is No. 63 in the "Times" June 14th 1853. The person mentioned has one of the names mentioned on the lease :
They loved their do-gooding, these folk!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 1:14 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, Stoddarts were certainly book printers and publishers in OZ and NZ.
Meanwhile this is an entire raft full of Taylors involved in all things to do with books and art:
TAYLOR, Charles, engraver, printseller and bookseller, 8, Dyer's Buildings, Holborn 178083; 10, Holborn 1785P-1790U; 10, Holborn Bars 1789A; 105, Hatton Garden 1797L1799H; 108, Hatton Garden 1801P-1823R. B. 1 Feb. 1756, Shenfield, Essex, s. of Isaac T., engraver; d. 13 Nov. 1823, Hatton Garden. App. his father. Studied under Bartolozzi. Visited Paris. On return cut plates after Robert Smirke and Angelica Kauffmann. House burnt during Gordon riots 1780. Moved to Holborn. Produced various illustrated works 1783-93 and works on drawing and other subjects 1797- 1819. London Library q.v. moved to his premises 1801. Devoted self to revision of Calmet's Dictionary of the Bible publ. anon 1797 and reaching 4th edit. 1824. Exhibited Society of Artists 1776-83. Brother lsaac. DNB; Thieme and Becker; Graves.
TAYLOR, Daniel, bookseller and bookbinder, 35, Union Street, Bishopgate Street 1794B1797L; 20, Mile End Old Town 1799H.
TAYLOR, Franks, engraver, Exeter Court 1774. Westminster Poll 1774: Mo., Ma.
TAYLOR, Isaac I, engraver and bookseller, Holles Street, Clare Market 1765-70; Bible and Crown, Holborn 1772-74; Chancery Lane 1773; 306, near Chancery Lane, Holborn 1771k1780. B. 13 Dec. 1730, Worcester; d. 17 Oct. 1807, Edmonton. In early life brassfounder, silversmith and surveyor. To London at first as silversmith 1752. Worked for Thomas Jefferys under whom he executed plates for the Gentleman's Magazinc. Also produced book illustrations including plates for Chambers's Cyclopaedia and many other works. Fellow Society of Artists 1765, secretary 1774. Friend of Goldsmith, Bartolozzi, Fuseli, Thomas Bewick etc. Bible and Crown formerly premises of A. and Henry Webly. Retired to Edmonton soon after 1780. Also portrait painter. Exhibited Society of Artists 1765-80. Brother James, engraver q.v. Sons Charles, engraver, Isaac II, engraver and Josiah publisher qq.v. DNB; Thieme and Becker; Graves.
TAYLOR, Isaac II, engraver, Holborn 1777-78; near the Church, Islington 1780-83; Red Lion Street, Holborn 1783-86. B. 30 Jan. 1759, London s. of Isaac I; d. 12 Dec. 1829, Ongar. Ed. Brentford Grammar School. Engraver in father's studio where he worked on plates for Rees's Cyclopaedia Engr. set of subjects specially commissioned by him from Richard Smirke 1781. Painted and engr. set of views near Thames. Left London for Lavenham June 1786. Worked for Boydell's Shakspeare and other publications. Moved to Colchester as nonconformist minister 1796. Moved to Ongar 1810. Produced a series of instructional books for children, many illustrated by himself. Exhibited Society of Artists 1777-90. Brothers Charles, engraver and Josiah, publisher qq.v. DNB; Thieme and Becker; Graves.
TAYLOR, James, engraver, Great Mays Buildings 1770; St. Chad's Row, Battle Bridge Wells, Gray's Inn Lane 1772-73; 28, Russell Court 1774-76. B. 1745, Worcester; d. 21 Feb. 1797, London. Porcelain painter in Worcester. Later engraver in London with brother c1771+. Engraved title pages, vignettes etc. Anker Smith his app. 1782. Exhibited Society of Artists 1770-76. Brother Isaac I. DNB; Thieme and Becker; Graves.
TAYLOR, James, card and pasteboard maker, 73, Old Street 1792K-1814P; 70, Old Street 1815P-1817U; 18, Helmet Row, St. Luke's 1818P- 1830P+.
TAYLOR, John, bookbinder, stationer etc., Little Earl Street, St. Giles 1778; 13, Little Earl Street, Seven Dials 1799H. App. John Shove, free Merchant Taylors' Co. 5 Nov. 1777, apps. Thomas Moorman 4 Feb. 1778, son John 2 Feb. 1785. Poss. at 141, High Holborn 1836Pi. Howe; Ramsden.
TAYLOR, Joseph, stationer, Fleet Street 1775. Bankrupt, div. 18 Mar. 1775.
TAYLOR, Josiah, bookseller and publisher, 56, opp. Turnstile, High Holborn 1781L-1799; 59, High Holborn 1799-1834. Trading: as Isaac Taylor 1781L-1787; as Isaac and Josiah Taylor 1787-98; as Josiah Taylor 1798-1834. B. 1761, London, s. of Isaac T. I q.v.; d. 1834. Presumably partner and successor of brother. Proprietors of Architectural Library 1787-1822R. Brothers Isaac II, engraver and Charles, engraver qq.v. Imprint(s): Kress: (I. and J. Taylor) 1788: B1373; 1790: B1957; 1792: B2261, 2383; 1793: B2591; 1795: B3011; 1796: B3129, S5526; 1797: B3364; (J. Taylor) 1798: B3568, 3597; Abbey: (I. and J. Taylor) 1787: AL38; 1790: AL47; 179192: AS2; 1792: AL83; 1793: AL74; 1795: AL48, AS514; 1797: AL34 (J. Taylor) 1798: AL74; 1800: AL49. Brown.
TAYLOR, Thomas, residence 9, Bridge Street 1799; 1 Bride Lane 1799. Registered press 1799. Todd.
TAYLOR, William, bookbinder, Denmark Court 1784; New Street, Golden Square 1794; 78, Berwick Street, Soho 1799H; 1, Bentinck Street, Berwick Street 1817U; 8, Church Street, Soho 1822Pi-1826Pi; 8, Holder Street, Soho 1832Pi. Trading: as William Taylor 17841823Pi; as Sarah Taylor 1826Pi-1832Pi. Westminster Poll 1784: W. Howe.
TAYLOR, William, circulating library, Brompton 1800; Brompton Terrace 1807P-1819P; no. 4 1809H. Called Bromptom Library 1811H. Run by T. Taylor 1820P-1830P. Hamlyn.
TAYLOR, William, 1, Little St. Thomas Apostle, Bow Lane, Cheapside 1799. Registered press 1799
My head hurts, I don't know whether it is the Taylors or the brandy. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3561
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 1:33 pm: | |
AP, my mind goes back to the will and newspaper references to book collections.
I wish some of the Cutbushes' pictures would turn up.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1541
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 4:10 pm: | |
Your wish is my concern, Robert.
When certain things are read correctly and rearrangements made then all roads sort of do lead to Edmonton don't they?
If you know what I vaguely mean.
At the moment I have so many back-logged research items that I honestly don't know where I am.
My time will become mine in about three weeks so I should be able to devote my full energy to this, and hopefully then I will be able to provide the 'pictures' we seek. At the moment I get about half an hour to do this.
Come Christmas it will be eight hours a day.
Your efforts, Robert, greatly appreciated. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1542
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 4:25 pm: | |
Oh Robert,
your mistake on the search on Roadside was a classic. That is how I discovered the final resting place of TTC's young bride in Wellington.
Hit the wrong key or number and there I was in Cutbush heaven.
I typed into the search engine 'Dunedin ships' and got a hit in a Wellington graveyard that is now a highway in Wellington, and I didn't even use that word 'Cutbush'.
You gotta turn your brain over here and scramble.
It will happen again.
It probably already has. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3563
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hi AP
I think they call that serendipity.
I've done some searching today but haven't turned up much.
However, there's a couple of developments which I will email you about.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3564
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 6:15 pm: | |
By the way, AP, I was wrong when I said that Luke Thomas Flood died in 1860 aged 58, and therefore Luke Flood must have been in his 60s when he fathered him. By squeezing my nose to the screen I now see that the age given in the "Times" article is more likely to be 85, which is much more in line with LDS records.
Mind you, it was a bit bad, that print!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3567
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 11:48 am: | |
Found a little item in the "Times" May 9th 1820 :
On the 1st instant, at his father's house, at Greenwich, Edward, youngest son of Mr. Cutbush, of the Ordnance.
That doesn't tell us anything we don't know except that Thomas Hoskins Cutbush lived at Greenwich. I think that Greenwich is mentioned in one of the wills, so that ties up.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3569
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
This was 68 Whitechapel Rd in the PO London Directory 1841 :
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1543
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 3:51 pm: | |
Robert, thanks for the neat and loose ends. I’m trying to tidy up the shop meself.
A cautionary word.
Plumbers were not plumbers back then.
Plumbers were expert lead workers, even the kings and queens of England employed ‘Royal’ plumbers, and many ’plumbers’ were actually intimately and artistically involved in the production of some of the most stunning buildings of the kingdom.
The official job description in the Victorian age is thus:
‘Plumber: one who applied sheet lead for roofing and set lead frames for plain or stained glass windows.’
Many plumbers were actually artists.
And close cooperation was required with a ‘glazier’ in such projects.
This glazier was also an ‘artist’.
A combination of both ‘arts’ in a single individual would mean a very, very high income, and probably a good deal of high society patronage.
There are a number of other points from your recent posts which I am following and will report back when the brandy bottle is empty.
As an aside I am finding that the Mears family were very frequent visitors to Oz and NZ during TTC’s sojourn.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3575
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 4:17 pm: | |
Thanks AP. That goes a long way to explaining the wealth these people seem to have enjoyed, and also the frequent occurrence of the phrase "plumber, painter and glazier" - three trades apparently so dissimilar and yet capable of being linked when seen aright.
Very interesting about the Mears family.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1544
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
A long time ago I did post something about the very close relationship between a Cutbush plumber of Maidstone and a famous portrait artist - was it Millias? - and one can now see why. I have the reference still, but am unable to copy it so will have to wait to have time to copy type it.
I was struck in your post concerning Josiah Taylor - November 26th - and his problems with his gaming house in Pall Mall, that one of his bailers was a 'plumber and glazier' of York Street, St James.
Oh and by the way, the Floods are Jews, originally.
As I think the Mears & Taylors.
Still not sure about the Cutbush clan.
And here's a book the Taylors did not want mentioned in Isaac's obituaries:
'FANATICISM.
NY: Leavitt and Boston: Crocker & Brewster, 1834. First US.. 8vo, pp. 368. Little foxed, but a very good tight copy in publisher's boards and linen spine and paper label. Ex-library copy with bookplate on the front paste-downa dn removed from the rear. Taylor (1787-1865) was an artist, author and inventor, the oldest surviving son of the artist of the same name. He joined the research staff of The Eclectic Review in 1818 and he published a new translation of Characters of Theophrastus with his own woodcuts. His Fanaticism was issued in London in 1833. See DNB: p. 418. $150.00
Book Id: 13945'
I'm put in mind of the bitter disputes taking place in St Lukes when I read the works of Isaac Taylor. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3578
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 5:37 pm: | |
Hi AP
Was it an anti-Catholic rant? If any of those Cutbushes worked on church windows, and were related to the Taylors, they'd have had a delicate path to steer.
These Cutbushes seem to have had connections, at any rate. I think one of the rose sniffers worked on the Hever Castle gardens. I found another Cutbush who was "Keeper of the King's Coal" (whatever was that?)
I even found a poor domestic servant called simply "Cutbush" - but she was in service next door to an MP.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1545
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 2:29 am: | |
On the contrary, Robert, it appears that Isaac Taylor and his family were very much in the hands of the Papist. I was unable to copy the quote concerning his work but it ran along the lines of 'had done more than anyone else to steer the confused populace back to Rome'.
A thought I had last night was that as 'plumbers, glazier and painters' both the Cutbush and Flood clans would have been the very boys to do a bit of stained glass work, perhaps this is even the correct title for such skilled artists and artisans? And perhaps this is why we always find them so well-connected to churches?
Anyways I'll look into that, and the 'Keeper of the King's Coal'. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3582
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 2:43 pm: | |
Hi AP
At a former leper hospital quite close to me is a very nice stained glass window designed by Burne Jones. I don't know the name of the craftsman who actually executed the window, but I guess it wasn't Mr Everest.
Could be the Cutbushes did skilled work like this.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1546
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 3:22 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, the problem being that the 'plumbers, painters and glaziers' involved in the production of stained glass master artwork are not often mentioned.
But here is an obscure reference - from an earlier time - but still very relevant:
'John Prudde of Westminster glasier, 23 Junii 25 H. 6, covenanteth &c. to glase all the windows in the new chapell in Warwick, with Glasse beyond the Seas, and with no Glasse of England; and that in the finest wise, with the best, cleanest, and strongest glasse of beyond the Sea that may be had in England, and of the finest colours of blew, yellow, red, purpurl, sanguine, and violet, and of all other colours that shall be most necessary, and best to make rich and embellish the matters, Images, and stories [histories] that shall be delivered and appointed by the said Executors by patterns in paper, afterwards to be newly traced and pictured by another Painter in rich colour at the charges of the said Glasier. All which proportions the said John Prudde must make perfectly to fine, glase, eneylin it, and finely and strongly set it in lead and souder, as well as any Glasse is in England. Of white Glasse, green Glasse, black Glasse, he shall put in as little as shall be needfull for the shewing and setting forth of the matters, Images, and storyes, and the said Glasier shall take charge of the same Glasse, wrought and to be brought to Warwick, and set up there in the windows of the said Chapell; the Executors paying to the said Glasier for every foot of Glasse ijs. and so for the whole xcjli. js. xd.'
As you can see the painters and glaziers involved in such a project worked hand in hand. One imagines that this applied to the plumber in charge of the leadwork as well.
I do find that as a trade in the Victorian age it was the same thing to be a plumber as a glazier and a painter, all three were thrown together as a trade.
Plumbers changed when the famous Thomas Crapper appeared on the scene - he trained with a old style plumber from Chelsea - and nowdays they buggar your plumbing and toilets up for large fees, but in them days they put glass together.
Sadly the Master Plumber's Association was only formed in the early 1900's so is of no help.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3584
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 4:31 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. Church accounts might yield something.
Apologies for not having yet transcribed the will of Thomas Cutbush, plumber painter and glazier of Maidstone which I downloaded a while ago. I was putting it off because it's long, it's not all that clear, and it seemed a bit tangential. I haven't actually read it yet, but I'd already obtained some info about him at the Supreme Court library.
I was having a quick look through the will just now, and he seems to be speaking of a sister called Sarah Cobb, so that may be a link.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1547
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
No worries about the will of TC, Robert.
Time aplenty.
I've had a few blips on this TC, plumber painter and glazier of Maidstone as well and must look them up again.
It might amuse you to know the name of the present Taylor-Mears inheritor of their bell kingdom:
'John Denison Taylor'.
A little Lord Grimthorpe.
Meanwhile check out the lovely painting 'April Love' by Arthur Hughes in the Tate Gallery.
Your Thomas Cutbush, plumber painter and glazier of Maidstone - Thomas Robert Cutbush - was intimately involved with this, he may even have owned the painting for a while, and I do strongly suspect that there is a typo error in the catalogue... I reckon it should read 'Flood'.
Nice picture. Good history.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1548
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
And with thanks to the British Library, a total eclipse of the sun:
1 Letterpress broadside map predicting the annular eclipse of 18 February 1737 by John Haynes. Although this is rather crudely engraved it is an unusual example of a very decorative eclipse map in colour.
Maps CC.5.a.59.
3 A broadside by Thomas Taylor for the 1724 eclipse reflecting the fairly sophisticated nature of these separately sold sheets. 1t contains detailed information, written and visual, about how and why an eclipse occurs. The attractive view at top right shows people observing a total solar eclipse. Maps (unallocated).
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:37 pm: | |
Hi AP and Robert,wonderful reading all this above.Love to hear about the artists and artisans
and how they collaborated.Will look out for the painting you mention AP...lovely to hear about
this old London craftsmanship.
William Blake was such a man in a way.What a spirit of old London he was ...highly idiosyncratic and eccentric but such an "embodiment" of that class of worker.
Sorry to digress-the stuff you write about is fascinating. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3585
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:58 pm: | |
Beautiful picture, AP.
Natalie, I too like Blake's artistic stuff. I only hope he wasn't mixed up with the Cutbushes!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1549
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 1:20 pm: | |
Thanks Natalie and Robert
here is another reference to the painting by Hughes:
'Another reference to Robert in an article about Arthur Hughes, his son in law, who was an artist. - "...Hughes was married at Maidstone on 26th November 1855 to 'his early and only love' Tryphena Foord, whose father was the manager of a local plumbing and decorating business owned by Robert Cutbush. ..."
Miss Foord was the actual model for the painting.
A Flood and a Foord. No wonder the Cubush's got their feet wet!
Robert, regarding your Cutbush who was the king's 'Keeper of the Coals'.
I believe this would have been a very powerful position as the following 16th C. quote demonstrates:
'The gale or boundary of each mining concession is allotted by the King's representative - "the keeper of the gawle"
I'm not sure yet on the meaning of 'gawle' but it could be old Yorkshire for 'coal'.
'Keeper' is an old English word for 'Inspector'.
I'll delve a little more. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3586
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 3:15 pm: | |
Thanks AP. If it is old Yorkshire, it may be of Scandinavian origin.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1550
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 3:42 pm: | |
Robert
I been playing around with 'Taylors' and Whitechapel Road, London Hospital etc.
Going back on our own resources on the Casebook site, of interest is an article by Paul Daniels on the 'Streets of Whitechapel' where he mentions a C. Taylor & Co, 'Picture Frame Maker' occupying premises on the corner that made Mitre Square, and outside of which Catherine Eddowes body was actually found.
Like that.
Art & Murder.
Keeping it in the frame.
I also find that the Whitechapel Foundry moved from one side of Roadside to the other - perhaps to be closer to the Floods and Cutbush's? As 32 & 34 are damn close to Flood-Cutbush land.
'The two new bells were cast by the Whitechapel Bell Foundry in 1972. The Foundry has made bells for well over 400 years. It was originally on the opposite side of Whitechapel Road and in 1738 moved to its present site occupying the ground of the Artichoke Inn (c1670).'
This artichoke stuck in me throat made me think of pubs and brewers:
'E1 LONDON HOSPITAL TAVERN: 176 Whitechapel Road. (C1/77). Ind Coope. Taylor Walker, Burton. Cocktail high stool type bar. Prints on the ceiling. Disco.'
While I was dancing I found a nice little 'Taylor' to go with the Floods, Mears and Cutbush's at the London Hospital:
'James Hudson Taylor was born in 1832, the son of a Barnsley chemist. Taylor senior was a forceful personality, a Methodist lay-preacher with a keen commitment to mission work and an obsessive interest in Far Cathay. He fired his small son with enthusiasm, and even as a lad of twelve Hudson Taylor was declaring that he intended to go to China as a missionary and save souls.
He did so in 1853, spending many years with the Chinese Evangelisation Society before returning to England in 1860 to recover his health. He and his wife moved to Whitechapel, where he returned to his old alma mater on the Whitechapel Road, the London Hospital. He pursued his medical studies there until in 1862 he won his diplomas and became MRCS. It was in 1865, during this stay in England, that he founded the great China Inland Mission. He died on 4 June 1905, having devoted the whole of his remarkable life to China. He was buried alongside his second wife, Jennie Faulds Taylor, in Chenkiang [Zhenjiang], near Yangchow [Yangzhou].'
What was it the Goons sang?
Ying Tong... or You Yangs.
Excuse me. It is the brandy.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3587
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 3:58 pm: | |
Interesting info, AP. I have often wondered about Mr Taylor's shop in Mitre St.I think also that one of the John Haynes was at one time listed as a furniture dealer - and wasn't there a furniture warehouse in the Square?
I know you don't count Stride as a victim, but in view of this sudden appearance of Chinese (Enter the Dragon) I'm bound to say ; do one murder, and 40 minutes later you feel like another one.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1551
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 4:26 pm: | |
It is of interest, Robert.
And we really need to firm up the Haynes connection, it is paltry to say the least, but I seem to get nowhere.
For anyone interested there is a very atmospheric photograph (circa 1925) of the Mitre Square murder site - showing Taylor's picture framing shop - available on the Court's TV crime library web-site.
Enjoyed the joke, Robert.
Chinese grub is really okay once you get into your Stride. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1552
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
The Taylor 'picture framers' didn't always have to rent shops behind tea warehouses where unfortunates were murdered, they once enjoyed royal patronage:
'but for Lord Middlesex his role extended to arranging picture framing so that in August 1639 he is to be found contracting that Zachary Taylor, a wood carver in the King's employ, would produce a picture frame 'of the Right Hon.ble Lady Contes of Midellsex pictor' for £6, and that Taylor's long-time associate, the painter Matthew Goodricke, would colour and gild the frame for a further £6. This carved, coloured and gilt frame, costing the great sum of £12 in all, must have been very rich .'
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1553
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
Debra
not sure if it helps, but the Cutbush family of Maidstone, plumbers, glaziers and art lovers, did actually live in the same street as an Edward Haynes in 1832, this was King Street.
By 1845 the Haynes held a shop, and the Cutbush's probably held a party. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3588
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 6:00 pm: | |
AP, Gary Rowlands in his chapter in the Mammoth book mentions Hudson Taylor in connection with Barnardo who, he says, wanted to join Taylor's group but was rejected for personality reasons.
Robert |
Debra Arif
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 7:02 pm: | |
Sorry AP and Robert, but not having much luck either with the Haynes.
There are just too many of them!, I thought knowing his middle name would narrow it down, but there seems to be a lot of John Lewis Haynes too, and some John Louis Haynes, but i'll keep looking.
I have got my end of term exams at uni over the next two weeks, so i am going to devote my time to all things chemistry for a short while.
I'll be back noseying around soon, and I'll still be following the thread to see what turns up.
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3589
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2004 - 4:51 am: | |
Hi Debra
Yes, these Haynes and Taylors and Kellys and Hutchinsons bedevil Ripperology. He came from Witney Oxfordshire if that's any help.
Anyway, you must put all that aside while you concentrate on chemistry. I wish you the very best of luck with your exams, and thanks for your great posts.
Robert |
|
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