| Author |
Message |
    
Paul Boggs
Police Constable
Username: Pboggs
Post Number: 8
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:05 pm: | 
|
AP:
You wrote “It seems a very likely summation of Charles Henry Cutbush's official in-volvement in the crimes of Jack the Ripper. It is, however, his unofficial involvement that I have interest in.” Good! Then we are obviously thinking along the very same lines – the lines which you present so well in your “Myth” text.
“Also it might be a tad premature to downgrade Cutbush's career within the Metropolitan force at the time you do, when he was showered with fifty gold sovereigns....." Could you be a bit more specific about the events you refer to here; maybe describe your sources for this information please. I’d like to consult them myself and get a clearer picture. Thanks in advance!
Robert:
You wrote today, “interesting post but CHC would have been in a position to access the investigation, even if he wasn't a prominent participant in it. And his lodging-house re-sponsibilities would have drawn him into the case to a certain extent anyway.
Three points here:
1. No challenge to your comment “CHC would have been in a position to access the investigation”.
2. “…..even if he wasn't a prominent participant in it” This is the very point which I was indicating in my last posting. I tend to be hyper-suspicious of “grand conspiracy” theories in any case, so I am more than sceptical about any “coven” of conspiring of-ficials at the EO. AP’s “Myth” book has quite convincingly presented the possibility of a “cover-up” for THC through his uncle CHC, though, and I by no means reject the possibility of such “unofficial involvement” by CHC. (See my comment to AP above), and CHC’s position would have presented opportunities for such involvement. No challenge to that either.
3. “his lodging-house responsibilities would have drawn him into the case to a certain extent anyway.” Here is a point which I hope to see clarified – by AP, you, or anyone else who can provide accurate information. The (limited) sources which I have at my disposal indicate that CHC was no longer in charge of the lodging houses (i.e. Chief Inspector Exec. Branch & Common Lodging Houses Branch) but instead had the position of “Superintendent Exec. Branch in Charge of Supplies and Pay”
Any comments, info, etc.?
Paul B. |
Paul Boggs
Police Constable
Username: Pboggs
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
|
Forgot to clarify in my last posting: "was no longer in charge ....." in August, 1888 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4391
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 2:23 pm: |
|
Hi Paul
I'm going by http://www.gendocs.demon.co.uk/police.html
where he's listed as being in charge of lodging-houses. Are you saying that he was re-assigned some time in 88? It's possible, though his experience of the lodging-houses (at least, if he'd been responsible for them for any length of time) would probably have been welcome to the Ripper police team, even if he was no longer concerned with them.
AP, Darlington seems a bit out of CHC's way, certainly. I've found an Inspector Cuthbert at North Dulwich police station in 81, age 36. By 91 he was Chief Inspector.
What mystifies me is why a supposedly advanced technological device should have to use a word like "cookie."
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2081
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 3:57 pm: |
|
Paul.
'The Police Guardian. Friday, October 21st 1887'.
'Presentation To Superintendent Cutbush.
At Scotland-yard late on Saturday afternoon Chief Superintendent Dunlap, at the request of the subscribers, presented to Superintendent Cutbush, of the executive department, Scotland Yard, a handsome purse containing 50 sovereigns'.
I think we should be very careful here to make sure that when we look at Cutbush's private role in the pension's fund of the Metropolitan force we do not confuse that with his official position in the Metropolitan force.
In his role in pension funds he was acting - more or less - as a trade unionist, against the very departments he controlled, but in his official role he was something quite different.
The press reports of the time show him just as active at beating Fenian heads as he was at championing the cause of police pensions in almost confrontational situations with his superiors.
Somewhere along the line we are also forgetting the report concerning daily police movements and beats that Robert found where CHC is clearly operating at a superior level of the Metropolitan Force than that of a clerk.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2084
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
|
Consideration must also be given to CHC’s role in the ‘Miss Cass’ affair of the summer of 1887, where the good ‘Mr. Superintendent Cutbush of Great Scotland-yard’ sat in court day after day as the direct representative of the Metropolitan force, in what was very likely the most high profile case of that time; and that consideration seems to demand that only a very high profile police officer would have been appointed to this very delicate and demanding role.
It also seems to me that when CHC threw James Tims - secretary of the Radical Clubs of the Metropolis and responsible for the Trafalgar riots in 1888 - unceremoniously out of his office at Scotland Yard when the poor chap applied for permission to hold his riot, that CHC was acting not only with the full weight of the Metropolitan police force, but also with that of the acting government.
This was heavy-weight stuff, Paul.
One doesn’t go to a lowly clerk to get permission for a riot.
Poor sod didn’t know what he was walking into when he confronted uncle Charles with that, for the motive behind the riots was the cause of the Fenians in Ireland.
Holy cow! I bet uncle Charles’ pistol slipped out of its holster most promptly that day. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4406
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
|
I have now received some material from Mark Pardoe. Thanks Mark!
METROPOLITAN POLICE
Number on Pension Register 10282
Commissioner’s office
20th August 1891
Charles H Cutbush late a police Superintendent resigned from this Division on the 11th day of August 1891, with pay to the 10th day of August 1891, to which day inclusive he will be paid, and he is entitled to a pension of £221 -0-0 per annum, commencing on the 11th day of August 1891.
(signed by) W. Davis Actg Superintendent.
DESCRIPTION OF THE PENSIONER
Age on resignation forty-seven years complete
Height 5 feet 9 and a half inches
Hair brown
Eyes hazel
Complexion fair
Particular mark, defect or infirmity by which he may be identified Knife wounds right thigh
Where and when born At Ashford, Kent on the 5th January 1844
Name of father Charles Cutbush (deceased)
Name of mother Amelia Cutbush
Date of joining the police At Scotland Yard on 2nd December 1867
Particulars of service Appointed to A on joining. Promoted to Sergeant 19/7/69, to Inspector 2/12/73 and transferred to C division. Re-transferred to A 19/2/76. Promoted to Chief Inspector 22/12/79 and to Supt 12/5/87.
If injured in the Service state nature of injuries (Blank)
Single, married or widower Married
Next of kin Ann Cutbush wife
Where he intends to draw his pension 3 Burnley Rd, Stockwell SW
Present address (Ditto)
(signed by) Charles Cutbush
Mark has also sent me two very detailed family trees, one pertaining to Lloyd v Cutbush from the late 1950s, and the other pertaining to Cutbush v Cutbush 1891-3. Some of the details we already know, but there’s a lot of stuff! AP and Debra, if you want copies give me your snailmail address and I’ll post. There is no indication of what the cases are about – just the family trees.
We now know from Tom Flood Cutbush’s pedigree, or family tree, that Thomas Taylor Cutbush died 19th August 1886. The tree confirms that he was indeed the grandson of Tom Flood Cutbush through Tom Flood’s son Thomas. He and Kate had a second son, William Ernest born 6th Sept 1866, died 30th March 1869. At the top of the document are "Afft" (affidavit?) with three names, one of them being that of FAE Swann – TTC’s third wife. The plaintiff in the case was Eliza Cutbush, daughter of Edward Cutbush and Tom Flood Cutbush’s granddaughter.One puzzle is, that the solicitors have a note "left (i.e.the dociment) 8th March 1892" and yet in June of that year, according to the article Chris found, the court was asking TTC to show up and explain his affairs.Were they going to use Robert Lees?
I haven’t yet had a chance to fully study these documents, but they seem very interesting. My thanks to Debra for putting me onto them, because I’d noticed them without noticing them, as it were. Also thanks to AP for providing moral (and financial!) support.
Robert
|
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
|
This all sounds great Robert!
I wonder how CHC got the stab wounds in his thigh, they don't seem to have occured through his work!
I would love a a copy of the stuff, I will send you my snail mail address, I can't wait!
thanks very much
Debra
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4407
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
|
Hi Debra
I've sent you my new email address.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2094
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Incredible stuff Robert, and my thanks to you and all others involved for this new and very important information that will alter and help shape our view of the Cutbush connection.
As Debra points out, it is interesting that CHC’s knife wounds do not appear to have been inflicted in the course of his duties.
I think you might have already guessed that the new information on the death of TTC leaves me in a general state of confusion, but it is nothing less than what I would expect from a man who never sailed to New Zealand but certainly arrived there.
Perhaps he sailed on the good ship ’Sylph’, as that always left before it arrived.
The continuing Swann connection is provoking, and I can’t wait to hear of further results from the trees.
I raise my hat to you, dear fellow, and will almost immediately drink that bottle of brandy that has been winking at me for the past hour. |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2514
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Hi Robert and AP
Just discovered this...........a LOT of reading later will pick up
Best!
Suzi x |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2095
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
|
Robert, do we know where TTC died yet?
Just that his year of death is interesting in regard to the ‘Thomas Taylor’ I found last year buried in the very same cemetery - Sydney Street, Wellington, New Zealand - as Agnes Ingles Cutbush, his wife, and the Stoddart family from whence she came.
We never pursued it at the time.
This Thomas Taylor also died in 1886 - though I have not yet been able to narrow the date down - and in the listing of the burial sites on the New Zealand website, both the Stoddarts and this Thomas Taylor are grouped together as a unit in the graveyard.
Any thoughts?
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2096
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
|
Also interesting is the timing of CHC’s resignation from the Met, a few months after his nephew had appeared in court and been sentenced to life for stabbing young women.
Then comes CHC’s suicide after the Sun reports that his nephew was Jack the Ripper.
Pretty nice timing on uncle Charle’s part.
What was the word Robert used not so long ago?
Serendipity or what? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4408
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
|
AP, we don't know yet where TTC died. The Thomas Taylor New Zealand link is interesting, though he'd have had a cheek to go back there after fathering children in Oz - unless, as you once suggested, these bigamists sometimes operated with full family endorsement.
Yes, the timing of CHC's resignation is very interesting - so soon after THC's incarceration. I did at one time wonder whether he took his pension simply because his 25 years service were up - for some reason 25 years seems to have stuck in my mind as a typical period of service. Anyway, it's clear that CHC hadn't yet completed 24 years when he threw in the towel.
The Sun reports don't dovetail quite so well - there was a couple of years before he shot himself.
I've just checked a paysite to make sure that TTC didn't die in England and that we'd missed him. Unless his death wasn't registered in 1886 for some reason, it looks as if he didn't.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2097
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
|
Thanks Robert
it does seem a little bit strange that in the same small area of the graveyard where TTC's wife and family are buried we also have a Thomas Taylor who died in 1886.
This Thomas Taylor was buried in the same vault as a Mrs. George Harness, who died in 1880.
Up till now I have not been able to trace this woman called George, or link her to the Stoddart family.
One possibility being of course that TTC did go back to New Zealand after leaving Port Melbourne in 1885 - which is where he disappears from history - and simply became TT, to avoid the heat of his many liasons, and was eventually buried in the vault of an old mistress... but I am obviously speculating.
I'll see if I can't get one of the researchers at the NZ site to give us an exact date of death for TT... that should solve the problem. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4409
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
|
Yes, it does seem too much of a coincidence, AP.
This was obviously a very complicated case, and it's difficult to know what was going on without seeing the court records. I suspect there may have been several actions taking place, e.g. Kate's attempt to sell THC's house ( by the way, the solicitors mentioned in the Solicitors Journal item I transcribed, about Kate trying to sell the house - Paterson and Sons - are the same ones engaged here).
Amazingly, Luke Flood Cutbush's descendants aren't mentioned at all in the pedigree, although he is. There are three names written at the top of the pedigree : R.E. Cutbush and W.R. Stokes, both 1892, and F.A.E. Swann, who seems to have come late to the party (1893). WR Stokes was a grandson of Tom Flood Cutbush. My best guess for RE Cutbush would be Rosa Elizabeth Cutbush nee Scarborough, the second wife of Edward Cutbush (son of Tom Flood Cutbush). Since one of Edward's daughters by his first wife was the Plaintiff, maybe she was taking some sort of action against her stepmother?
There are also ELEVEN Meek children on the pedigree.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4410
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 2:18 pm: |
|
By the way, I don't remember whether I mentioned that TTC died intestate.
There is also a Supplemental Pedigree, concerning John Edward Gripper plus numerous offspring which he had by his wife Annie Ellen Cutbush, daughter of Edward Cutbush by his first marriage. She died in September 1890, within a few days of Edward's death. Perhaps Edward's will
touched off some kind of action by his other daughter from his first marriage (Eliza) and this sucked in the whole Cutbush clan.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
Thanks for putting some of the info. on here.
Maybe Luke Flood Cutbush's descendents aren't mentioned because as far as we know he only had one daughter and she seems to have married into money.
I wonder if him committing the sin of marrying 'the deceased wife's sister' had anything to do with it. It was prohibited by the church when he did it, but he only just scraped through before civil marriages were prohibited too if I have read and understood it properly.
Did that make children of these marriages illegitimate?
Stokes is a new name to me though, I can't remember it coming up before.
Debra
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4411
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 2:48 pm: |
|
Hi Debra
I don't know about the deceased's wife's sister business. At least we know TTC would never have done that - he'd have married the living wife's sister.
Re Stokes, the chart has TFC's daughter Ann Cutbush (baptised 3rd October 1817 d. 6th Jan 1887) marrying William Stokes Nov 28th 1839 and producing William Robert Stokes b. 17th Nov 1841.
There are one or two scrawls on the charts I can't quite make out - something about the Wills Act - see what you make of it when I send it to you.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 3:00 pm: |
|
Robert, can I just ask you one more thing and then I am going to wait for the stuff!...This Frank Parkinson guy who was living with TTC's sister as her nephew...he's really been bugging me...is he mentioned at all?
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4412
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 3:34 pm: |
|
No, I'm afraid not that I can see, Debra.
The Loyd v Cutbush case of the 1950s seems to have involved a different branch of the family, albeit reaching back to the Victorian period.
One of the ancestors, Edward Cutbush (1820-1896) is called "The Testator". Similarly with the 1892 case, TFC is called "The Settler". I take it this means that their wills set the scene for what was to follow.The two names at the top of the later pedigree are Donald Lloyd and Lydia Macewan(?).
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2099
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
What is quite incredible is that TTC left for New Zealand in the November of 1866, barely two months after the birth of his second son, and by the time the boy had died in 1869, TTC had been married to Agnes Stoddart for over two years, but then poor old Agnes only had another year to live.
By the way I was able to find an unnamed child of the exact age of TTC’s second son, killed by a fast horse in the street, in an area that would fit, in a time that would fit, but just five days early.
The parents were not named in the case.
On reflection, I suppose, that young Thomas Hayne Cutbush did remarkably well to reach the grand old age of 37, even if it was in Broadmoor.
At least he was barely alive.
Everyone else was dead.
Apart from Kate. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4413
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
|
AP, shame about the horse accident.
I've a feeling that THC was given two options as a male Cutbush : either get married several times, or go mad (just the once).
Not only was TTC's son born the year he left, but his father died while he was on the boat going across.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2100
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 2:39 am: |
|
Shame about this one as well, Robert:
'Thank you for your request regarding the death of Thomas Taylor in
1886.
Thomas Taylor was interred at the Bolton Street Cemetery in Wellington
on 31 July 1886.
The newspaper death notice in the Evening Post of 1st August 1886 was
as follows:
TAYLOR - On the 29th July 1886, at the Wellington Hospital, Thomas,
only and beloved son of Mrs taylor, of Constable Street, Newtown, aged
14 years and 6 months; deeply regretted.
Regards
Linda McGregor
Librarian. Reference Services
National Library of New Zealand'
Just goes to show you gotta get everything just right!
My apologies for the wild goose.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4414
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 2:51 am: |
|
No apologies needed, AP. It was a very reasonable shot.
Re the puzzle about why the judge should be asking TTC to come forward in June 1892, and yet his date of death was recorded on the pedigree handed in to the court March 1892 - perhaps TTC's date of death was added later, about the time that Mrs Swann entered the picture? She would have known that he was dead, as she'd re-married.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2101
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
|
Robert
I hope I don't annoy anyone, but I'm going to repost something here from a while ago, regarding the arrival of Mrs Swann back in the Cutbush-Flood frame:
'Yes, Robert, Frances Augusta was making a point for sure, but as I've pointed out before one has to be careful about the legal requirements of bigamy in the LVP. It was perfectly acceptable under 'gentlemen's rules' to take on other and new marriages whilst keeping the old.
My knowledge of the law is sketchy here, but I do believe Frances Augusta would have been legally obliged to allow her son to keep the name 'Cutbush', unless she applied to a court with good reason to change it, and a remarriage on her part would not have been good cause.
Her son would have had to express a legal desire to change his name to that of his mother.
This very rarely happens.
Of course Frances Augusta may have had a very good financial reason for keeping the handle 'formerly Cutbush', and her son as 'Thomas Cutbush', and this might well explain the sudden financial deflowering of the Cutbush/Flood clan in London, whilst over in Fiji/Suva the Swanns suddenly became the powers that be in almost every walk of life.
They even had their own postcards for the tourists featuring their business and political empires back then in the LVP.
Perhaps TTC finally met his match?'
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4417
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 2:08 pm: |
|
Hi AP
Well, something seems to have happened to Kate and Clara's finances, although I don't know how much a house was worth in those days. Something seems to have happened to Tom's as well - first he apparently owns a house (which his mother tries to sell) then a guardian is appointed, then he dies leaving £80, I think it was.
I don't think we ever got the date of death of TTC's mother Ann, did we? She's mentioned on the chart, but there's no mention of her dying. TTC's father left her houses and land in 1866. At the time of the chart, 1892, there was one surviving offspring from amongst TTC's siblings - Sophia - but she had no issue. There is no mention of issue of the two that died either - Clarissa and Ann Elizabeth. Thus it seems that of Ann's four children, TTC was the only one who left issue, and THC was the only surviving issue of TTC by Kate. Perhaps if we can get hold of Ann Cutbush's will, we could find if she left anything to THC. One thing's for sure : if she did, then someone had it.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on May 20, 2005) |
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 3:14 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
Wasn't there two separate Cutbush pedigree cases in the PRO catalogue? one of Tom Cutbush d 1846 and one of Annie Cutbush d 1890, they both had the same file number, I thought the Annie Cutbush one was maybe TTC's mother as she seems to have lived with daughter Sophia and the mysterious Frank Parkinson but disappears by 1891.
I think AP may be right, Frances swan and her son Thomas Watson Cutbush might have walked away with it all.
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4418
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 3:37 pm: |
|
Hi Debra
I think the Annie Cutbush must be Annie Ellen Cutbush, afterwards Gripper, born July 2nd 1848 died Sept 9th 1890. She was a daughter of Edward Cutbush from his first marriage. Edward died Sept 22nd 1890. Underneath her box, someone has written "in lifetime of father" i.e. presumably, died in lifetime of father. Beneath that is written "had she children if so (illeg) to be under the Wills Act. See Supplemental Pedigree." This Supplemental Pedigree details the offspring of Annie Ellen and husband John Edward Gripper, whom she married July 4th 1880.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4419
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
|
John Edward Gripper was a corn factor, and was actually living next door to the widowed Rosa and step daughter Eliza in 1891.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4420
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
|
There are a few bits and pieces in the "Times". Here's the marriage announcement :
JULY 3rd 1880
I've looked again at the chart and it does say July 1st rather than 4th.
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on May 20, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4428
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 3:07 pm: |
|
Debra, I think you're right that Ann Cutbush, TTC's mother, was dead by the time of the case.
I can only assume that her date of death wasn't indicated on the pedigree because they didn't know it.
Similarly, for Sophia to have had a nephew, and Ann a grandson, called Frank Parkinson must mean that either Ann Elizabeth or Clarissa married a man called Parkinson. Such a marriage is missing from the chart, either because they didn't know about it, or because it wasn't material to the case.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 4:45 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
Thanks for the further information.
From what I can gather the case seems to have something to do with what was left by Tom Flood Cutbush to his two sons Edward and Thomas (TTC's father)and this is being disputed by Thomas and Edwards descendants?...have I got the right end of the stick there?...did Thomas end up with something that belonged to Edward I wonder?
The females probably don't figure in the pedigree I guess because it's a male line inheritance, I don't think Edward had any male heirs did he?
Debra
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4430
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
|
Hi Debra
It's so frustrating, because I can't say what it was about. Edward had two daughters by his first marriage (one of whom was the Plaintiff) and one daughter by his second marriage - no male heirs.
Thomas had three daughters and one son (TTC). TTC's issue is indicated - two sons, one of them dead. No issue is indicated for the daughters. It's not that they've written "No issue", it's just that they haven't mentioned a name. And yet, whence Frank Parkinson?
It's a bit of a strange chart. They haven't given the date of death of TTC's mother, and yet they've bothered to supply the death dates of Tom Flood Cutbush's second and third wives, by whom he had no children. If I remember right, he actually went out of his way in his will to leave his third wife "Not one penny."
I think we're going to need Edward's will and Ann Cutbush's will. And I'm going to have to properly transcribe Luke Flood Cutbush's twelve page spidery handwriting will, something I'm dreading.
Time for a fag and a cuppa....maybe several....
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2106
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 6:48 pm: |
|
Robert
could this be Jack the Gripper then?
Wasn't there a journalist involved in all this called Parkinson? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4431
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 3:40 am: |
|
I don't know, AP. You're not thinking of a rather ancient fellow called Michael, are you?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
|
Was that the one who rowed the boat ashore, Robert?
I’ve been thinking about this mysterious Parkinson you mention in an earlier post to Debra.
Many years later - 1956 - we do find a Mr. G. Jessup Cutbush as a company director of ‘Parkinson & Cowan Limited’.
This was a massive holding company that encompassed almost all the major manufacturers of domestic appliances in the UK, and was worth a few bob.
I was just thinking that maybe the artful and very financially rewarding marriages of the Cutbush/Flood clan did not die out with Thomas Taylor Cutbush.
Perhaps they are still at it right now. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4435
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:54 pm: |
|
AP, certainly if I were a female married to a Cutbush, I'd be happier if he had a career in electrics rather than gas.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4437
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Perhaps this explains Frank Parkinson :
1871 census
Ridgeway Rd, Enfield
Head Annie E Parkinson 32 married no occupation b. Enfield
Frederick Parkinson son 6 b. Enfield
Ann Cutbush, Sophia and Frank are listed only two census pages before.
Robert
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4439
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:51 am: |
|
Well I've searched the marriage register for a Ann Cutbush/Parkinson marriage between 1861 and 71. Not a sausage. Maybe she married and was widowed, and then re-married under her married name. Or maybe I'm blind.
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 52
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:51 am: |
|
Hi Robert
When I have checked back I found that you did give me this Parkinson information a while back, but I couldn't turn up anything else on them then and still can't, not even an entry for the 1881 census.
Its the same with CHC's mother Amelia and her Hastings grandchildren, I can't find anything on them either!
Debra |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4440
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:35 am: |
|
Hi Debra
Yes, I think I have wandered down this road before. Unfortunately my emails were deleted in my internet Armageddon.
In 1881 Frank and Sophia were at Appledore, I remember you finding them there before.
What's with the Hastings stuff?
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:02 pm: |
|
Hi Robert
I was trying to trace what happened to CHC's siblings to see if there were any connections to TTC there.
In 1861 census Amelia Cutbush, who I believe is CHC's mother was living in Hythe Kent with two grandchildren, she was a widow by then;
St. Leonards Hythe Kent
4 Albion Cottages
Amelia Culbush head widow 52 tailoress b Hythe
Florence Hastings grandaur. 11 b Hythe
Henry Hastings grndson 9 b Hythe
I have traced a couple of CHC's other siblings but can't fit these Hastings in, unless I am going blind too and it isn't Hastings but something entirely different!
Debra |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
|
Just a bit more background on the death and grave of Agnes Inglis Cutbush and the Stoddart sister buried with her:
'Agnes Ingles Cutbush was interred in the Bolton Street Cemetery on 17 July 1870.
The death notice from page 2 of Evening Post of Tuesday 19th July 1870 reads:
On the 17th inst, at Wellington, Agnes Ingles, the beloved wife of Mr Thomas
Taylor Cutbush, and fourth daughter of the late James Stoddart. Aged 20 years
and 6 months.
*-----------------------------------------
Christina Stoddart was interred at the Bolton Street Cemetery on 29 March 1892.
The death notice from page 2 of the Evening Post of Monday 28th March, 1892
reads:
Stoddart. - On the 27th March, at her residence Dixon Street, Wellington,
Christina, relict of the late James Stoddart, aged 74 years.
Regards
Linda McGregor
Librarian. Reference Services
National Library of New Zealand.'
My thanks to Linda.
I was hoping that she might find TTC's burial place for me, but I'm afraid she too has had no luck so far.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4442
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
|
Thanks, AP and Debra.
I remember you telling me about that, Debra.
AP, that looks like Agnes's mother buried there.So where on earth is James? And where is TTC? Why can't people pass on in an orderly manner?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2111
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
|
These damn Cutbush folk!
Yes, it must be Agnes' mother buried with her.
I think I can probably find James, but TTC?
I was a tad amused by Agnes' death notice, the 'beloved wife of Thomas Taylor Cutbush'.
He was probably in Melbourne or Fiji siring more bastards.
I think I'm right there, if he never divorced Kate, then he was never in legal wedlock with any of the others. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4443
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
|
Yes AP, I would have thought so. That being so, I'm not quite sure of the mechanism whereby Mrs Swann could have stolen Tom's dosh.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2112
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:26 pm: |
|
Last bastard standing?
Robert, a dear old friend of mine a few years ago contested a similar family estate where he was the bastard son of a Lord, and the failure of any legal blood heirs to the estate to appear, resulted in my dear old friend now sitting in the House of Lords and being appointed as one of Her Majesty’s librarians.
He is now very comfortably off for someone who was conceived down stairs.
Sometimes the bastards win.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4446
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
|
Good grief, AP. Well, at least we should be able to find where TTC died - the precise day, month and year on the pedigree chart would suggest that the death was officially registered, somewhere.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4447
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
Debra, re Hastings, have a look at Ellen Hastings age 19 in 1861 census, living Newington, b. Ashford Kent. Living with daughter Florence.Ancestry transcribe it as "Oshford" which doesn't help when you're trying to find someone!
The 1851 entry for Uncle Charles contained an Ellen age 9. I posted it on November 24th.
Alas, it's another one, like the Parkinsons, when the husband wasn't home on census night!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4450
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 3:59 am: |
|
I've searched from 1857 to 61 and can't find this marriage either. Much more of this and I'll be losing my marbles faster than a Cutbush loses a bride!
Robert |
