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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 4:20 pm: |       |
What about a turret clock and a Cutbush at Scotland Yard at the same time?
Here you are, and a Lord Grimthorpe for free!
Now all we need is the turret clock to have been designed and built by the Cutbush clock makers of Maidstone... just give me a few more minutes.
'Later Turret Clocks
This photograph shows the clock made in 1795 for use at Scotland Yard in London. Its design is not much different to that of the clock made for King's College, Cambridge 124 years earlier.
In 1854, Lord Grimthorpe used a new kind of frame and escapement for the Westminster clock, often referred to as Big Ben, which was set running permanently in 1859.'
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2728
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 5:23 pm: | |
All fascinating stuff, AP. The next time I venture into the legal minefields I'll see if I can find out whether there were any cases to do with patents etc around the 1850s - 60s.
If TTC and THC were only clerks, I suppose by Cutbush standards they were poor relations. I really must try to get to the truth about the precise relationship between TTC and CHC, and between the Cutbushes of north London and Kent.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1194
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 5:49 pm: | |
Cheers Robert
you'll find that the north London Cutbush element emerged from Maidstone as well.
What I'm finding is that the fortunes of the Cutbush clan were positively mind-boggling in the 1700 to 1800 period, and then sort of just very rich up to 1840, after that there seemed to be a decline in wealth and intellect, where we end up with poor old addled uncle Charles taking pot shots at turret clocks in Scotland Yard, Westminster and Whitechapel, and Thomas attempting to restore the family fortune by slaying whores... and then they took to growing roses.
You'll be pleased to hear that I have enlisted the support of the most eminent clock watcher of all time to study this problem and I hope he will get back to me pronto, meanwhile a little Lord Grimthorpe gem for you:
'Edmund Beckett Denison, first Lord Grimthorpe (the designer of Big Ben), was annoyed by slovenly visitors. He introduced a cunning device into his lavatory; once the user had locked the door it could not be opened until the loo had been flushed.'
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1200
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 4:54 pm: | |
Here is that bigamous marriage for you, Robert:
Marriages Solemnized at St Johns Presbyterian Church, Willis St, Wellington
Transcribed from the original registers
Copies of the original entry can be obtained from Alexander Turnbull Library, P O Box 12349, Wellington New Zealand
(The additional information you will find in the register is the street address of the place where the marriage took place, the address and occupation of the witnesses, and the signatures of the bride and groom.)
Note: The first 18 marriages are all conducted by Rev John Hall. He was not particularly associated with St Johns but the marriages are included here for completeness
Abbreviations:
M.S. – marital status, B bachelor, S spinster W widow/er; F– full age ie over 21; * after a name – the name is taken from the signature and is spelt differently in the marriage register. (I assumed people would spell their own names correctly and the Minister made the mistake.)
Wgtn – Wellington; SJC – St Johns Church, Willis St; James Smith’s – marriage took place at Mr James Smith’s (the address is usually given but has not been transcribed);
10 Dec 1867 Dixon St Wgtn Thomas Taylor CUTBUSH F Clerk B Agnes Ingles STODDART 18 S George Sample John C Stoddart
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2740
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 5:23 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. I have a feeling that Thomas Taylor may have done this sort of thing again. Who knows? Maybe he ended up in America!
Still he seems to have been in Australia as late as 1885 - probably flitting between Oz and New Zealand.
Several things seem to have coalesced around the year 1866 - 7, and I'm wondering about possible connections. In 1867 there was a case Regina v Cutbush. We still don't know what that was about. In the last quarter of 1866 one Thomas Cutbush of Edmonton died aged 59. Maybe Thomas Taylor's dad? Then in the last quarter of 1867 Charles Cutbush (I think he's our Charles Cutbush) gets married at Dover and Thomas Taylor gets married at the other end of the world.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 6:10 pm: | |
Ah Robert, it is a complicated world, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
One thing for sure, both the Hayne and Cutbush Amerika clan were very much anti-slavery and in fact had large elements of American Indian and slave blood in them.
But that is by the by.
The Hayne clan of Philadelphia were big time politicos, governers and the like, much involved in the civil war, in fact one was assasinated by his own troops.
I'll see if I can track down this 1867 Regina v Cutbush fiasco. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 4:03 pm: | |
I believe that uncle Charles' pension records are now available to view at MEPO 21:
Registers of pensions awarded to Metropolitan Police officers who retired or resigned from the force between 1852 and 1993, and who were granted, or who (after 1890) qualified for, a police pension. The records include personal information about the officer, such as his or her date and place of birth, marital status, parents and next of kin, service details and, from 1923, details of spouse (date of birth and place of their marriage). The series contain some volumes relating to widows' pensions.
Arrangement The entries in the volumes are arranged in order of pension number, which generally corresponds to the date of resignation although in some instances this chronological order has not been strictly followed. The pension numbering system was altered periodically and reflects administrative changes within the Pensions Branch.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 4:10 pm: | |
A random example of what uncle Charles' pension record should look like:
Metropolitan Police Service:
From the Metropolitan Police Museum.
Charles Ashby joined the Metropolitan Police force on 24th October, 1870.
(Aged 21 years 7 months.) His warrant number was 53284.
He was discharged from the service on 20th July, 1892, aged 43 years,
after serving for 21 years as a police constable, due to Rheumatic Gout.
He received a pension of £36 12s. 2d. per anum.
Metropolitan Police Service record
N Division Islington (Hackney sub division)
24 Oct 1870 - 20 Sep 1873
R Division Greenwich (Deptford subdivision)
21 Sep 1873 - 12 Jun 1886
H Division Stepney (Commercial Street sub division) 13 Jun
1886 - 12 Jun 1889
V Division Wandsworth (Battersea sub division) 13
Jun 1889 - 11 Jun 1890
V Division Wandsworth (Epsom section, Kingston sub division) 12 Jul 1890
- 20 Jul 1892
PRO in MEPO 21/22 Police Pension Ledger - pension number 10617
Metropolitan Police V or Wandsworth Division
30th day of July 1892
Report of Particulars transmitted, by direction of the Commissioner of
Police of the Metropolis, to the receiver for the Metropolitan Police
District, relating to the undermentioned person Pensioned by order of the
Secretary of State
Charles Ashby late a Police Constable, resigned from this Division on the
Twentieth of July, 1892 with pay to the Sixteenth day of July 1892, to
which day inclusive he has been paid, and he is entitled to a pension of
£36 12 2 per anum, commencing on the 21st day of July 1892
D Paine, Superintendant
Description of Pensioner
Age on Resignation 43 years
Height 5 feet 10 1/2 inches
Hair Grey
Eyes Grey
Complexion Fair
Marks etc. Scars on head and forehead from kicks
Where & when born Greenwich on the 26th Febr. 1849
Name of Father Joseph Ashby
Name of Mother Caroline Ashby
Date of Joining At Greenwich on the 24th October 1870
Particulars of Service Constable, ordinary duty
On joining was posted to N Division
"Hackney sub division"
[for other postings - see above]
Injuries in service None
Status Married
Next of Kin Wife
Where intended to live and draw pension
Epsom Common, Epsom, Surrey.
Present address Epsom Common, Epsom, Surrey
Signature Charles Ashby
MEPO 4/352-360 Attestation ledgers, for warrant numbers 51491-146379,
February 1869 - May 1958, Gives signatures of the recruit and witness.
Police Pensions Act 1890
This act provided a legal right to a pension after 25 years service, and a
modified pension or gratuity if discharged medically unfit.
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 5:40 pm: | |
Looks like we might have to wait a few more years yet before access to Thomas Cutbush's Broadmoor files and data is generally available.
So speaks the poor chap trying to organise the asylum's chaotic paper work:
'The problem of access to patient information is much more complex and unresolved. Medical records seem likely to remain closed for ever except to bona fide medical researchers. Exceptionally, and subject to medical counselling, such information may be interpreted to genuine next-of-kin. As a policy, the hospital will not engage in any discussion of named patients with anybody on a routine basis. The hospital has an indefinitely long duty of care to its patients and their families, which it takes very seriously. There is a body of opinion which considers that criminal lunatic non-medical records are so sensitive that whereas lunatic or criminal records are opened after three generations this is not sufficiently long to protect the descendants of Broadmoor patients. Four generations (125 years) has been proposed informally as a minimum closure period but no formal consideration has yet taken place.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2845
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 5:53 pm: | |
Hi AP
But THC had no descendants, nor did he have any siblings (unless TTC gave him some Antipodean half-brothers or sisters).
I rang the PRO today, but they didn't seem to know anything about new police records being released.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 6:09 pm: | |
See Robert, you always think of the obvious when I'm clawing my way through clouds of brandy.
This chap is open to discussion concerning records of patients so I'll send you his name, number and rank.
Perhaps he likes brandy?
I've found another source as well and will send that along also.
My impression is that the chap is saying that criminal records are not the same as medical records, for Thomas became a medical case rather than a criminal case the minute he checked into that exclusive hotel at Crowthorne.
Not sure about PRO, but there is definitely more information popping up in several places regarding police pension records and the like from the LVP. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2980
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 7:25 pm: | |
Hi AP
The Cutbushes seemed to like the land of Rolf Harris :
Unassisted Immigration to Victoria
Index of Inward Passenger Lists for British and Foreign Ports 1852-1923
20 results found.
Family Name First Name Age Month Year Ship Port Fiche Page
CUTBUSH ---- INFANT WITH I JAN 1907 ORIENT B 751 001
CUTBUSH ---- MASTER 10 SEP 1885 SORATA B 456 011
CUTBUSH ---- MASTR 10 NOV 1899 OMRAH B 653 011
CUTBUSH ---- MISS 18 SEP 1885 SORATA B 456 011
CUTBUSH ---- MR 28 JAN 1912 MANTUA B 839 006
CUTBUSH ---- MR 41 OCT 1906 BRITANNIA B 745 002
CUTBUSH ---- MR 40 SEP 1885 SORATA B 456 011
CUTBUSH ---- MRS 33 NOV 1899 OMRAH B 653 011
CUTBUSH C MR 17 NOV 1913 INDRAPURA B 885 013
CUTBUSH C MR 25 FEB 1907 MOOLTAN B 752 006
CUTBUSH C MR 50 DEC 1904 OPHIR B 720 001
CUTBUSH CHAS MRS 30 JAN 1907 ORIENT B 751 001
CUTBUSH FRANCES A 5 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH G B MR 36 NOV 1899 OMRAH B 653 011
CUTBUSH H C MR 31 NOV 1902 ORIZABA B 691 013
CUTBUSH HARRIET 28 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH J B MR 50 JUN 1890 SALAZIE F 258 002
CUTBUSH JNO C 32 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH JOSEPH H 3 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH W MR 19 NOV 1913 INDRAPURA B 885 013
Return to Search Page
Copyright © 2004
Public Record Office Victoria ask.prov@dpc.vic.gov.au
Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2982
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:20 am: | |
From this, it seems that a Mr Cutbush, 40, arrived on the Sorata in 1885 with a 10 year old boy and an 18 year old woman. Was this TTC making another trip there from New Zealand with his new family? I think TTc would have been 41 at the time.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1355
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
Great stuff, Robert.
I've been tracking the voyages of the good ship 'Sorata' - she eventually died on a Australian reef and stamps posted from her command a fine price today - but as far as I can tell she never touched New Zealand, but I could be wrong, given the amount of brandy that captains imbibed in them days.
Nice touch though.
I'll look further. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1357
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 5:22 pm: | |
Sorry Robert, I erreddddd:
'October, 1862
Source: State Records Authority of New South Wales: Shipping Master's Office;
Passengers Arriving 1855 - 1922; NRS 13278, [X107-108] reel 411
# ON REEL
DAY MONTH YEAR SHIP'S NAME DEPARTED ARRIVED
26 13 OCT 1862 SORATA DUNEDIN SYDNEY'
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2989
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 5:39 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. Of course, I now realise that it probably isn't TTC, as the 'B' means the ship left from a British port, and it would hardly have popped into New Zealand on the way (not unless the captain turned left instead of right when he got out of port).
I'm sure he'll turn up again, though.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1358
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 5:54 pm: | |
He might be difficult to put a finger on, but here's his girls enjoying eternity together,
( remember the bigamous marriage... and then how strange that they end up in the same grave?):
from Hawkes Bay district info Sailing ship Dunedin, Port Chalmers, Dunedin info Sailing ... info The grave of Agnes Ingles Cutbush and Christina Stoddart, plot 44.N ...
timeframes1.natlib.govt.nz/'
The site savagely resists copying but it is worth it, the grave now sits under the main Wellington highway. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:06 pm: | |
Photographs available but I'm not able to handle the technology, perhaps someone else would be so kind?
'Login info Active Items info Photographs & Negatives info 3 info The grave of Agnes
Ingles Cutbush and Christina Stoddart, plot 44.N, Sydney Street Cemetery. ...
timeframes1.natlib.govt.nz/
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2990
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:30 pm: | |
Briiliant find, AP!
This is a big breakthrough. I'll paste the info on after a quick fag.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2991
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 6:43 pm: | |
Record Title The grave of Agnes Ingles Cutbush and Christina Stoddart, plot 44.N, Sydney Street Cemetery.
Reference No. 35mm-25561-13A; F
Display Dates [Between 1965 and 1969]
Physical Description Cellulose triacetate negative
Quantity 1; b&w original negative(s); individual frame on 35mm strip
Restrictions Unrestricted
Collection Record Shotter, P J E :Negatives and albums (with index) of graves in the Bolton Street and Sydney Street cemeteries, Wellington (PAColl-3096)
Scope and Contents The grave of Agnes Ingles Cutbush and Christina Stoddart at plot 44.N, Sydney Street Cemetery. It was photographed in the late 1960s by the City Sexton, P J E Shotter, prior to its being dismantled to make way for the Wellington motorway.
General Notes An original print from this negative is at PA1-o-049, page 8.
Names Cutbush, Agnes Ingles, 1850-1870; as a related subject
Stoddart, Christina, d 1892?; as a related subject
Shotter, P J E; as the creator of collection
Alington, Margaret Hilda, 1920-; as the donor/lender/vendor
New Zealand Historic Places Trust; as the donor/lender/vendor
Places Sydney Street Cemetery
Search Dates 1965; 1969
My guess is that TTC next contracted yet another bigamous marriage, this time in Australia?
Robert
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 906
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 10:39 pm: | |
Hi Robert
You wrote:
"The Cutbushes seemed to like the land of Rolf Harris."
This might be just my assumption but could there be a lot bush out there to cut? 
All my best
Chris
P.S. Very interesting information you and AP are digging up on the antipodean Cutbushes.
(Message edited by ChrisG on September 11, 2004)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2995
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
Hi Chris
It would be interesting to know just what it was that Agnes Ingles died of, and whether TTC believed that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. 
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Thanks Robert & Chris.
I enjoyed the discovery of that one.
Robert, I'm beginning to think that TTC had aviaries full of 'em.
I'm trying to track down how dear old Agnes departed this mortal coil, but it ain't easy.
Meanwhile, this site - not yet on-line sadly - probably contains relevant information about TTC's movements between OZ and NZ:
http://www.gsv.org.au/Forms/passenger.pdf
My thanks again for getting the photo of the grave up.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2999
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Thanks for that link, AP. I'm trying to find references to Cutbushes and Stoddarts in Aus/NZ but so far nothing really interesting has come up.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1361
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
No worries Robert.
Re the grave photo, I can see that the stone has an old fashioned Victorian 'sweet pea' plant trailing through the shrubbery - which probably means it was planted at the time of burial, which shows care and emotion on the behalf of someone, as this is quite a rare plant these days, having been outdone by the new hybrid forms - but I'm damned if I can read anything of the grave inscription.
Do you get anything?
'Dunedin' seems to be the link word when searching Cutbush/Stoddart down under. I got a few flashes to do with gold mining, but I need to firm them up.
Just by the by, it was not at all unusual for an Australian bound ship to make unlisted calls in NZ in the LVP. The wind blew. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3000
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
Hi AP
I'll ask my nephew if there's some way of enlarging the picture within the rules of the site.
STODDART Mrs Christina, 27-3-1892
That was from a Wellington online death list. So Christina was a Mrs. Perhaps TTC bumped off the wife and later returned to deal with the mother-in-law!
I've looked through the 1881 census for a Cutbush who was hopefully a widower with two children of the right age, but no luck.
Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3001
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:55 pm: | |
At http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/%7Eourstuff/Elect1865Q-Z.htm can be seen the electoral roll for the City of Wellington, with John Charles Stoddart shown living at Hopper Street (thinking back to the bigamous marriage).
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1362
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
Rock and Roll Robert.
I'll check it out.
In the meantime here is TTC slipping into Wellington, NZ, once again:
'Commodore; arrived 20-Jan-1867; Mr Timothy Barrett; Mr J & Mrs Bruder; Mr T Cutbush;
from: Ballarat arr 30-12-1864; Mr Baine; Mr Bonnythorne; Mr W Woodlord; ... Commodore; arrived 20-Jan-1867; Mr Timothy Barrett; Mr J & Mrs Bruder; Mr T Cutbush; ...
www.angelfire.com/az/nzgenweb/passenger.html
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3002
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 6:26 pm: | |
Thanks AP. The Wellington directory for 1866-7 shows "Stoddart J" of Hopper St as a printer.
Around this time, there was a Mark Pringle Stoddart who was a magistrate, but I don't know if they were related.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1363
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 4:26 pm: | |
Cheers Robert.
I've worn myself down to a worm doing all this, so decided to call the New Zealand cavalry in, hopefully they should come thundering over the hill with bugles and pistols blasting shortly.
I have found things but god only knows where now, so have called in the troops, and instead watch a sunrise and drink brandy.
Ballarat seems to be of import.
There was a lot of exchange and interchange through there with NZ in the LVP and the Stoddards figured big time there, that seems to tie in with Dunedin.
TTC's bride did not live a long life that's for sure.
It might be worth checking 'Portsea' in Victoria, there was info there but damned if I could wriggle it out. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3009
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 4:45 pm: | |
OK, AP, I'll see if I can find anything.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1364
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Robert
afore I go.
There is another site, but it is a real sod.
However it does offer information and photographic images of the children and parents of the dead women... I think.
Listed simply as '2000-03-31'. Entry under 'The grave of ...'
Then go to 'Site Map'.
I've bookmarked it, so if you can't get into it, let me know.
It does not like being copied. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1365
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
Don't put that fag out Robert.
A good starting place for Stoddarts is:
www.ballaratfoundation.com
I'll have that glass of brandy now. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 5:27 pm: | |
Nothing ever changes.
The place the girls were actually buried at was known as the Bolton Street Cemetary.
Cutbush a Jew?
SYDNEY, Australia, Aug. 8 (JTA) — Jews in New Zealand are reeling from the worst anti-Semitic attack in the nation’s history.
Ninety-five headstones were toppled over in the Jewish cemetery at Makara, outside the nation’s capital of Wellington. The cemetery’s chapel, used for prayers before burials, was gutted by fire, leaving only swastika-etched walls standing.
The fire was discovered early in the morning last Friday. The cemetery is in a remote area where the nearest residences are more than a mile away.
David Zwartz, the president of the New Zealand Jewish Council and a member of the Wellington Jewish community, spoke to JTA shortly after visiting the scene.
“The headstones are all made of granite — extremely tough and extremely heavy,” he said.
“They all withstood the manhandling and none was damaged. However, it took three policemen to lift one back into position, so we can only assume that whatever group carried out this attack must have been quite large. This is nothing short of heartbreaking.”
The desecration comes just three weeks after an attack on the Bolton Street Jewish Cemetery, which sits 400 yards from the nation’s Parliament building. Sixteen headstones were desecrated in the attack on the Bolton Street cemetery, which is no longer in use. Some of the headstones dated back to 1850, only 10 years after the city was settled.'
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3010
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 6:32 pm: | |
Sorry AP, I couldn't get onto it. Could you give more info?
The Ballarat thing is interesting, but are you sure the Stoddards and Stoddarts are the same people?
How did they get Nazis in New Zealand? I just can't picture Kiri Te Kanawa singing the Horst Wessel song.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3011
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 8:28 am: | |
AP, is this what you meant? Same site as the Agnes grave, this grave is of the Stoddart and Jamieson families.
I had trouble pasting the info, and when I went back to try again the site was unavailable! However, I remember it mentioned a John C Stoddart dying 1871, and I think a James Stoddart. This would tie in with a marriage I found for 1865, I think, between a Christina Stoddart and a man called Matthews. Bride's father, James Stoddart. I'll post the info on the grave if I can get back on the site.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3013
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:38 am: | |
Christina Isabella Stoddart married Matthews (no first name given) May 1865 - bride's father James Stoddart.
A James Stoddart of Dixon or Dickson St, storekeeper, appears on the Wellington burgess and electoral rolls as early as 1842, though he seems to disappear around 1858.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3014
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:05 am: | |
Here is the info re the grave.
Record Title The grave of the Stoddart and Jamieson family, plot 49.N, Sydney Street Cemetery.
Reference No. 35mm-25561-11A; F
Display Dates [Between 1965 and 1969]
Physical Description Cellulose triacetate negative
Quantity 1; b&w original negative(s); individual frame on 35mm strip
Restrictions Unrestricted
Collection Record Shotter, P J E :Negatives and albums (with index) of graves in the Bolton Street and Sydney Street cemeteries, Wellington (PAColl-3096)
Scope and Contents The grave of the Stoddart and Jamieson family at plot 49.N, Sydney Street Cemetery. It was photographed in the late 1960s by the City Sexton, P J E Shotter, prior to its being dismantled to make way for the Wellington motorway.
General Notes An original print from this negative is at PA1-o-049, page 9.
Names Jamieson, John, d 1871; as a related subject
Jamieson, John, d 1919; as a related subject
Jamieson, Eliza, d 1929; as a related subject
Stoddart, John C, d 1871; as a related subject
Stoddart, James D, d 1872; as a related subject
Shotter, P J E; as the creator of collection
Alington, Margaret Hilda, 1920-; as the donor/lender/vendor
New Zealand Historic Places Trust; as the donor/lender/vendor
Places Sydney Street Cemetery
Search Dates 1965; 1969
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 1:10 pm: | |
Sorry Robert!
Drinking strong brandy and searching the net obviously do not mix well. I sent you off on the back of a wild goose there all right.
You are quite right of course, to my eternal shame and in a drunken stupified state I typed in the wrong name.
The quality of my research suffers from such madness I fear, but there are a few flashes of thunder now and then.
The '2000-03-31' site did lead me to believe that the information concerned the Cutbush/Stoddart grave, but again I was probably persuaded by the brandy that this was so.
My sincere apologies for wasting your precious time.
I shall probably do it again.
Sorry. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 1:24 pm: | |
Here's the names for you, Robert:
MATTHEWS - STODDART. On the 3rd May, by the Rev. Isaac Harding, John William, second son of the late Richard Matthews, of Auckland, surgeon, to Christina Isabella, third daughter of the late James Stoddart, of Wellington.
The Wellington Independent, May 13, 1865
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3016
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 1:39 pm: | |
No worries, AP. As a matter of fact, that item is very apt, as it tells us the forenames of Mr Matthews, plus his father's name, plus it tells us that the James Stoddart mentioned on the grave site (d.1872) wasn't the father of Christina Isabella.
No need for the NZ cavalry, AP - you're doing very well on your own!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3018
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
It's worth mentioning here, for ease of reference, that John Ruffels found T.T. Cutbush on the You Yangs, Melbourne to Sydney 1875.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:00 pm: | |
'You Yangs' never touched NZ though, Robert, she could barely make Kangaroo Island:
'You Yangs. Steamship, 690 tons. Built at London, 1856, to carry water to the Crimean War; originally named Kief, then purchased in 1864 by William Howard Smith & Company for trade between Melbourne, Sydney and Tasmanian. Lbd 185.2 x 21.9 x 15 ft. Captain Veitch. Struck a rock, took water, abandoned east of Kangaroo Island, 14 June 1890. Prior to this, some of her iron cargo stowed on deck shifted, causing a dangerous list. The three lifeboats lowered were separated in the rising seas but all the crew were eventually located after a land and sea search. Some cargo was salvaged but the steamer broke up quickly.' |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:06 pm: | |
It appears that the 'You Yangs' may have been a prison transport:
'CABBAGE Wm.
HMS Barracouta
p52, 24.2.1875
From Sydney, on the 15th February, 1875:-G.R.Servt., born at Gibralter, in November, 1854, 5’ 5", brown hair, grey eyes, sallow complexion, foreign looking. This man was sent in the steamer "You Yangs" from Melbourne for passage to HMS Barracouta and deserted from the steamer, at Sydney, before an escort could be sent for him.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3022
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 5:15 pm: | |
Thanks for that, AP. He wasn't listed as a convict, though I did take the opportunity of searching the NZ gallows for him.
You could say that any passenger list that included TTC was a dangerous list.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 2:06 pm: | |
Robert, I do believe that TTC was just as dangerous as uncle Charles and dear young Tom-Tom.
A formidable family.
Here's confirmation of Christina Stoddart's death:
'STODDART Mrs Christina, 27-3-1892, Wellington'
from 'angelfire'.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3027
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 2:26 pm: | |
Thanks AP.TTC wasn't changing his name - unless the occasional reference I've seen to a "Thomas Taylor" was him - so he wasn't a "wanted" man (at least not in Australasia). However, I wouldn't buy a second-hand hansom cab from him, still less marry him.
A few days ago I asked a volunteer looker upper if she could find his death. I'll post if I get anything.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1372
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 2:09 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, I've hopefully got someone looking for more info also.
Meanwhile I'm attempting to get hold of the following volume:
'Port of Wellington Entry, 1856-1887 : passenger index and ships' index / compiled by Leonard J. Dangerfield ; members of the Wellington Group of NZSG. Dangerfield, L. J. (Leonard Joseph), Auckland. New Zealand Society of Genealogists, 1988. 8 fiche Available from the New Zealand Society of Genealogists Inc $NZ15.20 (go to publications, fiche) Index to overseas passenger shipping arrival lists in the Wellington Independent, NZ Spectator and Cook Strait Guardian, NZ Advertiser, Evening Post and NZ Times. Arranged alphabetically. ISBN: 0908770022 (pbk.)' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3035
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 3:45 pm: | |
That sounds promising, AP. Here's a bit more about poor Agnes - she was a wedding witness a year before she died :
16 Sept 1869 Dixon St David ALLAN F Clerk B Helen STODDART 17 S Halper S Allan Agnes Inglis Cutbush
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1373
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
Well found, Robert.
We are getting there.
Helen Stoddart must have been with child - in mischief I say from TTC - as she was too young to be married. My understanding is that a girl had to be 18 to be wedded in the LVP, unless special circumstances applied - such circumstances would be if she were orphaned, pregnant or in calamitious social condition, and even then such circumstance would have to be vouched by nearest relatives; or vicar would refuse vow.
Same church as her own marriage - Dixon St - and one must note a year before her death, sprite enough to attend ceremony.
One fears a sudden death.
Perhaps she fell down down the stairs? |
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