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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3038
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:53 pm: |       |
A distinct possibility, AP - unless TTC had already moved on to the next marriage.
The following item from the same list bears out what you say about the marriage age :
• There is a note appended to this record. “It was stated by mistake to the Register that Hannah Cameron was 18. She will not be 18 till the 13th March next (1875). Her parents are both dead; her nearest relatives in the Colony consents to this marriage.” Signed James Paterson (officiating minister)
Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3039
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:54 am: | |
AP, this may be where TTC's dad lived : three years ago a Rootsweb messageboard poster gave a Thomas Cutbush painter etc as living at 9 Woburn Buildings Tavistock Square (London directory 1846). If the family didn't move, this may help locate them in the 1851 census.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1374
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 1:05 pm: | |
Grand stuff, Robert.
I don't suppose you know whether that particular Thomas Cutbush was a house painter, like Adolf, or an artist, like van Gogh?
Meanwhile as regards the American connection could this early record of a Cutbush born in PA and dying in NY be of any use:
'Cutbush, Edward; born 5 Jan 1772 Philadelphia PA; died 23 June 1843 Geneva NY;'
Plus this one:
(baptism new york)
ANNA CUTBUSH 4/25/1875 JAS. S. & MARY E. CUTBUSH
good luck, Robert!
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3040
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 1:48 pm: | |
Thanks for that info, AP. A strange instrument, the internet - Australasia to England to USA. I shall have to watch out, or I'll end up net-lagged!
Actually, I'm not sure whether the Tavistock Sq info will be useful - you'll recall that a Thomas Cutbush was listed in an 1851 directory as living in Enfield. Tavistock sq, according to my mapbook, is just south of Euston Station! Still, something may turn up.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1375
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
Join the club, Robert, I've been net-lagged for months now.
Got fed up with Oz and NZ and jumped to USA.
The following has a nut to crack I'm sure, when you get into it there is a wealth of info, which I'm still looking at:
www.jerseyhistory.org/arch_diaries.html
If you don't connect let me know and I'll have a word with uncle Charles. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3043
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 5:02 pm: | |
Thanks AP. Site accessed.
I hope this is a genuine diary.....
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1380
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 1:43 pm: | |
Going back to Robert's post of the 13th July - and Chris Scott's subsequent posts - concerning court cases and the Cutbush clan, I thought the following concerning the Hayne clan might be of interest. I feel that there is a connection in all this.
'John Thomas Haynes became a publican in Port Adelaide as early as 1841 and owned and operated sealing and whaling stations on Kangaroo Island and Cape Jervois. J.T. Haynes perished in a shipwreck, 1844, off the Coorong, not long after suspicious were raised by the Governor and the Police Commissioner that he was a smuggler. After his death Mary Ann remarried and her new husband E.J. Grey, paid off her debts. She was however faced with a lifetime of legal wrangling with J.T. Haynes' family in England who refused to believe he was married to her and who wanted their share of his 'fortune'. Mary Ann raised the orphan Jerkins (Courtoy) children and was a very capable business woman in her own right.
The whaling station began operations in 1841, when shipping records show that whale oil from the Cape Jervis whaling station was delivered to Port Adelaide aboard Sophia Jane, a cutter owned by John T. Haynes. Haynes was the licensee of the Commercial Hotel at Port Adelaide and also owned the Fishery Beach whaling station.
Haynes disappeared while on a voyage aboard Sophia Jane with his headsman, George McGeehan, and several others when it was wrecked 80 kilometres south of the Murray Mouth. Their bodies were never recovered, and it is believed that they were buried by local Indigenous people.
· John Thomas Haynes was also a convict, arrived Tasmania aboard theArab(1) from England, arrived 11.6.1822.
Conduct Record CON31/19, Indent Description List/Muster Roll CSO1/403/9104.
SOURCES Tasmanian Pioneers Index, Shipping Records, Tasmanian Archives and lists of convicts aboard ships, Tasmanian Convicts CD.
According to cemetery records, John Thomas HAYNES #1207was from Battersea, Surrey, England. Court papers lodged in the SA records, indicate he had relations in Spitalfields, Middlesex, London. Ie: Elizabeth Haynes of London, a Thomas Haynes, whose occupation was silk merchant, address unknown and Charlotte Haynes, the younger, of Mile End - although I don’t know what the relationships were I suspect they
were his father, wife and daughter….
John Haynes was sent to Tasmania as a convict, but nothing is known of his time in Tasmania. He travelled from Launceston to South Australia onboard the Lady Emma in 1837, with wife, and a 25 ton whale boat. He became a boatman in Port Adelaide. He had 2 whaling stations, 1 at Hogs Bay, Kangaroo Island, and another at Cape Jervis. He employed 37 men. He obtained land in the 1837 Land Grants and built the First Commercial Inn in Port Adelaide, the 5th hotel to be built in South Australia and later when the port was moved, his wife purchased the Halfway House Hotel, on the Port Road at Woodville. John Thomas Haynes was a seaman, and he had an involvement in several ships. The Shipping Arrivals and Departures of South Australia information gives dates and basic details of his many trips from the mainland to Kangaroo Island.
A letter from the Governor to the Police Commissioner of the day outlines
their suspicions that he was a smuggler.
THE SEALING CUTTER SOPHIA JANE
In 1841 the Sophia Jane became known as a sealing cutter. She was probably built at Port Adelaide by Mr. Daniel Simpson and a Mr. Thomas was her owner and master for a while. Mr. Simpson, who was also proprietor of the Hog Bay Fishery, died in October and Mr. J. T. Haynes acted as his Executor and carried on the fishing business. Mr. Haynes, who had with his wife arrived from Launceston in the Lady Emma, in 1838, and brought as cargo two boats, conducted the Commercial Hotel at the Port as well as being concerned with the fishing. In 1842 Captain Edward Dowsett sailed the Sophia Jane to Mr. Hayne’s fishery at Cape Jervis and brought back 3 1/2 tuns of oil and 400 sealskins.
The cutter was only 13 tons but in December she was reported as having carried two mill stones and twenty deals to Encounter Bay. Deals are heavy baulks of timber, and we can surmise that Mr. R. W. Newland was waiting for this cargo for his mill at Encounter Bay, for it was completed and at work gristing a short time later.
Sophia Jane changed owners early in 1843, Mr. William Smith being registered as owner. In 1844 with Mr. George McGeehan as Master, she brought on one trip three tuns of seal oil and 700 seal skins; McGeehan at that time being headsman for Mr. Haynes.
Towards the spring of that year Mr. Haynes went in Sophia Jane on a voyage and the cutter was last seen in heavy weather far to the south of Cape Jervis and driving to the eastward. (The Sophia Jane was laden with skins and men, and was returning to Port Adelaide at the end of the season. She was towing several work boats with additional crewmen and skins aboard. They ran into heavy seas and it became necessary to cut the smaller boats loose. The Sophia Jane was not seen again.)
As she failed to return to the Fishery, Mr. John Thompson in the cutter Resource and Captain Dowsett in the Jane Flaxman, made searches for her without success.
In November Thompson and his party discovered her wreckage about fifty miles beyond the Murray Mouth. The vessel was found in two parts on the beach, separated by some distance, and natives found camping in the vicinity said that the body of a boy had been seen near the wreck but no trace of Mr. Haynes or of George McGeehan, the master and the crew was ever discovered.
Little ships of the pioneer years - 1836 - 1845. Ewens, L.
Mary Ann was definately a resourceful woman, unafraid of a challenge, and I suspect “as tough as nails”. I cannot find a death for Charles Dix/Dixon in Tasmania or South Australia, early enough for her to be a widow. Mary Ann was the publican of the Commercial Inn which had most of its windows broken during a brawl outside, to celebrate the first elections in South Australia. Mary Ann claimed insurance on the windows. Evidence found, shows that she was an astute businesswoman, not afraid to use her brains to find solutions to her problems, nor to use the law to her advantage.
When J.T. Haynes died in 1844 Mary Ann, now a widow, was obviously in financial trouble.
Although she had some property, she was unable to pay her brewer. ' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3167
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 3:26 pm: | |
Interesting post, AP. I had a look in the "Times" for these people, but so far nothing. Maybe TTC went down south to try and sort out the court case?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1381
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Yes, Robert,
interesting because the properties in dispute in this Hayne case were in 'Spitalfields', as were I believe the properties in the Cutbush case, and the use of the names 'Thomas' & 'Hayne' in the history is provocative of course.
I don't believe for one instant that Thomas Taylor Cutbush went down under on a whim.
He smelt money and young brides.
What is for sure... there was some bad blood between the two clans and it is our job to find it, and thus explain the peculiar occupation of Thomas Hayne Cutbush when he came of age. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1383
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
And as regards passenger lists into New Zealand one must take the following into account:
'Shipping News 1864
Partial listing of the larger overseas vessels arriving at Port Chalmers and Dunedin January to March. Immigration increased during the Otago gold rush so the practice of publishing full passenger lists in newspapers was abandoned.'
TTC must have been in heaven. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3171
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:01 pm: | |
AP, there were a Thomas Haynes and a Charlotte Haynes, both in theiir 70s, living at Mile End (though different addresses) in the 1871 census, if that's any use.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:31 pm: | |
Mile End was one of the properties under discussion, Robert, but equally so the claim on the 'down under' properties by the London Hayne/Cutbush clans is of import.
Somebody wanted the lot.
I reckon it was TTC at uncle Charles' bidding. |
NC
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 10:33 pm: | |
AP
Thought this may be of some interest.
Incoming passengers to Victoria 1852 - 1914.
Family Name First Name Age Month Year Ship
CUTBUSH ---- INFANT WITH I JAN 1907 ORIENT B 751 001
CUTBUSH ---- MASTER 10 SEP 1885 SORATA B 456 011
CUTBUSH ---- MASTR 10 NOV 1899 OMRAH B 653 011
CUTBUSH ---- MISS 18 SEP 1885 SORATA B 456 011
CUTBUSH ---- MR 28 JAN 1912 MANTUA B 839 006
CUTBUSH ---- MR 41 OCT 1906 BRITANNIA B 745 002
CUTBUSH ---- MR 40 SEP 1885 SORATA B 456 011
CUTBUSH ---- MRS 33 NOV 1899 OMRAH B 653 011
CUTBUSH C MR 17 NOV 1913 INDRAPURA B 885 013
CUTBUSH C MR 25 FEB 1907 MOOLTAN B 752 006
CUTBUSH C MR 50 DEC 1904 OPHIR B 720 001
CUTBUSH CHAS MRS 30 JAN 1907 ORIENT B 751 001
CUTBUSH FRANCES A 5 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH G B MR 36 NOV 1899 OMRAH B 653 011
CUTBUSH H C MR 31 NOV 1902 ORIZABA B 691 013
CUTBUSH HARRIET 28 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH J B MR 50 JUN 1890 SALAZIE F 258 002
CUTBUSH JNO C 32 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH JOSEPH H 3 JUL 1858 COLUMBIA B 148 001
CUTBUSH W MR 19 NOV 1913 INDRAPURA
regards
Neale |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1385
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 1:45 pm: | |
Having spent some time now rereading all the valuable new material that has been contributed to this Cutbush thread, there are a number of investigative points that deserve to see some daylight.
1)
Thomas Taylor Cutbush and Kate Hayne were married in 1864 - both aged twenty as far as we know - and Thomas Hayne Cutbush was born a year later in 1865.
In November of 1866 Thomas Taylor Cutbush left England - and his new bride and child - on the ‘Commodore’, arriving in Wellington, New Zealand on the 20th January 1867.
This very recently discovered information allows us to dismiss the press speculation and rumour - perpetuated by my good self in the ‘Myth’ - at the time of Thomas Cutbush’s trial (and later) that his father, Thomas Taylor Cutbush, had beaten and abused his son in his early years.
It is obvious that Thomas Taylor Cutbush barely knew Thomas Hayne Cutbush at all, and would have had limited opportunities to beat or abuse such a very young child under the direct care of its mother anyway.
However the most important fact that is available to us from this new information is that we can now say that Thomas Hayne Cutbush grew up entirely without the influence of a father-figure in his life.
This is of great import.
There are other points I intend to raise regarding this new information, and I would like to thank Robert and Chris in particular and everyone else in general who have contributed valuable new resource to this thread.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 1:52 pm: | |
Thanks Neale
very valuable stuff indeed, but I'm afraid Robert got there before you.
No matter... the effort is vastly appreciated.
I'm still looking at this list of passengers as is presents a lot of problems... as well as some interesting speculation.
The information is certainly pertinent to Thomas Taylor Cutbush's residence in Oz in 1885.
I'll get back to you on this one.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3181
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 2:21 pm: | |
Hi AP
To me, it looks as though TTC had made a pretty good marriage to Kate Hayne. Therefore, when he left for New Zeakand I can only assume that he was either on his way to play for bigger stakes, or he was dodging something that lay in wait for him in England. I'm sure that time will reveal all.
Neale, thanks for that info. Are tou the Neale Carter who used to post here as a registered member?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1387
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Ah, shiver me timbers, Robert, you are right.
Here is the official sailing record of the ship 'Commodore' on which Thomas Taylor Cutbush shipped to Wellington, New Zealand:
'Commodore Gravesend 12/10/1866 Wellington 20/01/1867 100 W Colville No passengers.'
'No passengers'.
But TTC was a 'mercantile clerk' - see THC's birth certificate - so maybe he was part of the jolly crew? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3183
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 4:52 pm: | |
Something funny here, AP. I remember your finding the Commodore, and he's listed as a passenger on it - or at least "Mr T Cutbush" is. You can get it up with a google search for Thomas Taylor Cutbush. Puzzling!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1388
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 5:25 pm: | |
Quite right, Robert.
He is certainly listed as a passenger arriving in Wellington on said date, but I'm afraid he didn't leave as an official passenger. The sailing record is solid on that. As is the London court record you found with the date of arrival in Wellington. The ship had to be the 'Commodore'... it arrived with TTC but didn't sail with him, officially.
Three things occur to me.
The ship may have had a secondary port of departure, for example it may have sailed from Gravesend to the port of London and then onwards to Wellington; and I have seen examples of this.
The ship may have taken passengers on at sea; I have also seen examples of this.
The third scenario is TTC rowing like buggary to escape the clutches of 'something' and making the 'Commodore' on the outer reaches of the Thames, which is Gravesend, and bunging the Captain fifty quid to take him to the land of young brides and untold fortune.
I like that one, but it doesn't explain the three other passengers who arrived with him but never left.
I'll employ my shovel and see what I can dig up. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1389
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 5:48 pm: | |
And regarding Neale's above post concerning the family of Cutbush - and Robert's previous post where he expressed concern that the good ship 'Sorata' was exclusively out of England, the following should be of interest:
'Eliza (nee HARTLEY) was the last known member of the family to travel to Australia. At the age of 74 yrs she boarded the ship 'SORATA' in May 1885. The voyage from London via; Plymouth, Naples, Port Said, Suez & Diego Garcia to arrive at GLENELG on the 15th May 1885. For a person of her age this would possibly be a demanding trip even on our modern ships let alone the vessels used in those days! After disembarking, the ship went on to Melbourne and Eliza made the short trip to her son John's property at Angus Avenue, EDWARDSTOWN'
This is the very year we discuss, and thereby said Cutbush clan could have hopped on at GLENELG and disembarked Melbourne.
Elementary my dear Robert.
We all do live on a yellow submarine. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3184
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 6:17 pm: | |
AP, I'd love to know if he ever came back. I'd also like to know whether he predeceased Kate. Should it have turned out that Clara died before Kate, and Kate died before TTC - then TTC could have copped the lot (plus a prison sentence for bigamy if the truth leaked out).
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3187
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 3:35 pm: | |
Two TCs for the price of one :
" C "
The Soldiers listed below a represent the soldiers who were in Australia on Garrison Duty.
Some may have settled, some may have not. When it has been confirmed they settled in Australia they will receive their own page. If it is confirmed the men settled in Australia, they will not appear on this page,they will appear on the surname page.
If they are listed on this page, then this is all we know of them .
Back to Surnames of the 57th Regiment Soldiers who stayed
Some of the soldiers listed below transferred to the 17th regiment. Little is known about them at this time, it is unsure if they settled .
• Private # 816 CASTLES George Transferred to 17th Regt 1st January 1831 sailed to Per John Barry to India 4th March 1836 , . Private # 817 CHAPMAN Abraham Transferred to 17th Regt 1st January 1831 Discharged Sydney 1st March 1834 Married Johanna (Hannah) Glinn , . , . Private # 806 COOKE Henry Transferred to 17th Regt 1st January 1831 as "unfit"returned to England via " Brit Mail " 19th February 1833 , . Private # 814 COOKE James Transferred to 17th Regt 1st January 1831.Discharged Sydney 1st March 1834
• CADERS William ", ."CAHILL Michael ", ."CALDWELL James ", ."CALLAGEY John ", ."CALLAGHAN Terence ", ."CAMPBELL John ", ."CAMPBELL Major ", ."CAMPION James ", ."CANNON Michael ", ."CAPPER James ", ."CAREY Patrick ", ."CARLEY Jonathon ", ."CARNEY James ", ."CARPENTER Charles ", ."CARPENTER George ", ."CARR John ", ."CARROLL John ", ."CARSON Robert ", ."CAVANAGH Paul ", ."CAVANOUGH Michael ", ."CHALKING Henry ", ."CHAMBERS Edward ", ."CHAMBERS William ", ."CHAMBERS William ", ."CHAMBERS William ", ."CHANETT Charles ", ."CHAPEL William ", ."CHAPER William ", ."CHAPMAN Thomas ", .CHAPMAN William ", ."CHASLING Henry ", ."CHESTER Thomas ", ."CHILDS Robert ",."CHINNERY Nicholas ", ."CHINNING Archibald ", ."CHISLETT John ", ."CLARK John ", ."CLARKSON James ", ."CLEARY George ", ."CLEARY Lawrence ", ."CLEGGETT John ", "CLIFFORDEN John ", ."COCKSHAW James ", ."CODE Patrick ", ."CODE Thomas ", ."COFFEE Hugh ", ."COLEMAN John ", ."COLEMAN John ", ."COLEMAN John ", ."COLEMAN Michael ", ."
COLLINS James ", ."COLLINS John ", ."COLLINS Michael ", ."COLLISON William ", ."COLLISON William ", ."COLWOOD Thomas ", ."COMER Hugh ", ."CONDY George ", ."CONDY George ", ."
CONEY Charles ", ."CONIN John ", ."CONNOLLY Edward ", ."CONNOLLY Martin ", ."CONNOLLY Martin ", ."CONNOLLY Michael ", ."CONNOLLY Michael ", ."CONNOR Andrew ", ."CONNOR David ", ."CONNOR John ", ."CONNOR John ", ."CONNOR Michael ", ."CONNOR Patrick ", ."COOK William ", ."COOKE Richard ", ."COOKE Robert ", ."COOKE William ", ."COOPER William", ."COPPARD John ", ."COPPARD John ", ."COPPER John ", ."CORCORAN Peter ", "COTTERELL William ", ."COUGHLAN Cornelius ", ."COUGHLAN David ", ."COULSTON James ", "COULSTON John ", ."COZENS James ", ."CRANE Timothy ", ."CRANE T'imothy ", ."CRAWFORD John ", ."CRILLY John ", ."CRONIN John ", ."CROUCH William ", ."CROWE Thomas ", ."CROWHURST William ", ."CROWLEY Michael ", ."CULLY John ", ."CULNANE Dennis ", ."CULNANE John ", ."CUNNINGHAM Michael ", ."CURRIN Patrick ", ."CURRY James ", ."CURRY Samuel John ", ."CUTBUSH Thomas ", ."CUTBUSH Thomas ", ."COOKE Henry ", ."COOKE Jesse ",
The information is intended for short Historical Value only,
E- mail address
bmchapman@iprimus.com.au
© Copyright B & M Chapman (QLD) Australia
Last revised:
I've not yet found out precisely what period this is from.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1391
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 4:20 pm: | |
Nice find, Robert
although I just can't imagine TTC as a soldier of any nature unless money and young brides were involved... I'll follow it though. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 1:28 pm: | |
Robert
As an offshoot to the Thomas story I have been considering the sudden disappearance of TTC from the scene within a year of the birth of his only son, THC.
It has come to my attention that the government of New Zealand was offering assisted passages to Wellington in the London press specifically in the year 1866 when TTC upped sticks and sailed to Wellington, but these assisted passages were only offered to families with a husband in a particular trade - a clerk not being one of them - or to single young men regardless of trade, occupation or education.
Therefore plausible to suggest that TTC applied - and was accepted for - assisted passage as a single man, with the good intention of bringing his young family out at a future date when he had made his ‘fortune’.
Remember that these were the days of the gold-rush in both Oz and Nz and I tend to think if ever there was gold digger then it would have been TTC.
Best laid plans and all of that… because as we know within a year of arriving in Wellington, TTC had found himself an even younger bride of 18 years old, and seems to have forgotten all about his young family back in London.
One supposes that TTC’s new bride came with a dowry of sufficient weight to actually outweigh TTC’s hereditary interests in London.
Perhaps we need to know more about the financial fortunes of the Stoddart family of Wellington?
Oh and by the way, Robert, I’ve also discovered that some ships did not declare ‘assisted passage’ emigrants as passengers in their manifesto but just slung them in steerage and treated them as cargo. This might well explain how TTC never left on the Commodore as a ‘passenger’ but certainly arrived as one in Wellington.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3228
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 2:16 pm: | |
Interesting stuff, AP. It seems a very reasonable scenario. An obvious question would be, why would a man who was as apparently well-off financially as TTC have endured the hardships of an assisted passage? But perhaps the Haynes refused to pay for the trip? I'm thinking here of your earlier suggestion - that Tom's father was not TTC but CHC. If TTC knew this, he might have decided to blow away to seek his fortune elsewhere, getting there as cheaply as he could.
I doubt if the marriage with Agnes was a love match, so, as you say, we need to find out more about the Stoddarts and their finances. The only Stoddart I can remember seeing who looked as if he had money was a magistrate. I don't know whether he was related.
TTC met and married Agnes so quickly, that a few weeks ago I looked through the passenger lists for her, to see if it was an elopement! One wonders if he used the same fast technique on Kate in America.
It looks like you've cleared up the Commodore mystery. I think we've been very lucky so far, inasmuch as he kept to his own name while committing bigamy. Which makes me wonder whether you were right to suggest that he did all this with Uncle Charles's approval. To abandon your family and commit bigamy while your relative is a police Supt - was TTC stupid? Or had he been given the green light?
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 4:16 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
I'm dwelling on what you say here, and in the meantime here is another of the Stoddard girls falling into marriage (I think that's the lot now, as far as I can tell there were only the three, Helen, Agnes and Christina):
'MATTHEWS - STODDART. On the 3rd May, by the Rev. Isaac Harding, John William, second son of the late Richard Matthews, of Auckland, surgeon, to Christina Isabella, third daughter of the late James Stoddart, of Wellington.
The Wellington Independent, May 13, 1865'
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3230
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 4:33 pm: | |
AP, here's a mystery. Did Christina revert to her maiden name? (I'm thinking back to the tomb)
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1401
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 5:17 pm: | |
Good catch, Robert.
It has to be the third sister.
Now where are we going to find Helen?
I'm looking. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 2:14 pm: | |
Robert
I was surprised to find out that a certain Mr Deemings career seemed to reflect a certain Thomas Taylor Cutbush's career.
They had an awful lot in common, the seeking of new brides and the love of Australia where I suppose they could get away with it.
One does wonder exactly where the devil TTC was between 1875 and 1885 when he resurfaced again in Melbourne?
I reproduce Deeming's colourful career as a reminder:
'As Frederick Bayley Deeming
1881: Feb - Married Miss Marie James at St. Paul's Church, Higher Transmere. Went alone to Australia.
1882: - Joined by his wife. Sent to jail for six months for theft.
1884: Numerous bank robberies took place in Sydney, the perpetrators not being detected.
1885: More robberies, burglaries, mysterious disappearances and tragedies.
1886: Sets up shop in a large way, perpetrates a fraudulent bankruptcy and absconds from Sydney.
1887: Flies from Adelaide to Cape Town after robbing two brothers of £60.
1888: Nothing known of him. During this year six of the Whitechapel murders were perpetrated.
1889: Poses in Durban as a mining engineer and obtains £680 by fraud.
June: Has £1,500 advanced to him in Durban on bogus deeds, obtains £420 worth of jewelry and decamps. Aboutthe same time two murders were committed in the Transvaal, the murderer escaping. July 17: the eighth Whitechapel murder.
Sept.10: the ninth Whitechapel murder.
September: Turned up unexpectedly in Birkenhead, where his wife was living.
October: Is traced by a private detective, who wants him for the Transvaal robberies.
November: Sails for Australia. Leaving the vessel at Port Said, he doubles on his pursuers and returns to Birkenhead.
As Harry Lawson:
1890: Feb. 18: Arrives at Beverley and marries Miss Matheson a fortnight afterward.
March 15: Obtains by false pretences at Hull.
March 16: Sails from Southampton for South America.
April 7: Arrested at Montevideo.
Oct. 16: Tried at Hull assizes and sentenced to nine months' imprisonment.
1891: July 16: liberated from Hull jail.
July 19: Miss Langley was murdered at Preston, near Hull, the murderer escaping.
July 21: Makes his first appearance at Rainhill.
July 22: Has tea at the Commercial hotel with a dark lady, who turns out to be his wife, Mrs. Deeming of Birkenhead.
July 23: Lunches at the hotel with his wife. Is afterward accompanied to Huyton by Miss Mather and signs the agreement of tenancy.
July 25: Mrs. Deeming and four children arrive in Dinham villa.
July 26-27: The fivefold murder is committed.
Sept. 22: Marries Miss Emily Mather at Rainhill.
Oct. 17: Sails with his wife from London to Australia.
Nov. 27: Miss Mather's last letter posted on the way out at Colombo.
Dec. 21: Miss Mather murdered.
As Swanston.
1892: Jan: Applied for another wife in a Melbourne matrimonial agency. Proposes to and is accepted by Miss Rouncesvell at Perth, Western Australia.
Feb: Wrote to Miss Matheson at Beverley, repeating a previously made request that she should join him.
March 8: Arrested on the eve of his marriage to Miss Rouncesvell.'
This sounds like a right TTC, perhaps mixed up with a THC.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3265
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Hi AP
Yes, TTC could have been careering around all over the world. I suppose the obvious names he might have adopted would be Taylor or Hayne (I suppose he'd have picked names that meant something to him).
I feel he'd also have come back once in a while - certainly if he knew when he left England that there was a likelihood of one day inheriting property/money, than TTC wasn't the man to let the situation go without checking up on events.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1409
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 4:41 pm: | |
Robert, not much
but these are the two heads of the families in the last Stoddart marriage - third daughter - in Wellington, they emigrated to NZ in the same year and probably on the same boat, the 'Sir John Falstaff'.
I suspect we might be looking at 'arranged' marriages.
'MATTHEWS Dr. (Sir John Falstaff) Wellington 1841
STODDART James . Wellington 1841'
Interestingly enough I was able to slot a Cutbush into the same time frame:
'Charlotte Cutbush, dau of Isaac and Susanna(h) Maria Cutbush, 2 June 1841 at Brede, SSX. They emigrated to New Zealand, arr in Nelson 8 Feb 1842 on the 'Mary Ann'.'
So it might well be that TTC had relations to avisit, and a nice little arranged marriage waiting for him in Wellington.
It was all very rushed.
Note the name of the male Cutbush: 'Isaac'.
The Juwes are not the men who will be blamed for nuffink. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3279
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 4:56 pm: | |
Great stuff, AP. TTC was able to woo and marry Agnes so quickly, I did wonder if there was something going on - but then look at the speed with which Deeming worked. However, it's quite possible that there was some sort of arrangement. I was corresponding a while ago with a New Zealand lady who has Sussex Cutbushes in her family tree. Maybe I should get back to her (though not till I've found a rather elusive marriage I said I'd try and pin down for her).
Also, the Thomas Cutbush who died in 1884 was, if I remember right, born in Sussex.
There certainly seems to have been a Jewish branch to the Cutbush family - I think there was a Reuben living in Mile End.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:14 pm: | |
Thanks Robert
and a thousand curses on all these here Cutbush folk! I just checked the original manifesto for the good ship Mary Ann and of course the Cutbush clan - as ever - did not embark as passengers, but they certainly got off the bloody thing, as I've several sources for that... I'm grasping at the fact that they might have 'hopped' on board as the following report from the ship's surgeon suggests:
Hand written notes at the foot of the original passenger list:
'I hereby certify that the barque Mary Ann arrived at Port Nicholson on Saturday 29th January 1842, at 3pm and that she sailed from that port on Thursday 3rd February, at 5:30pm for Port Nelson and arrived at Port Nelson on Tuesday 8th February 1842 at 8:30am.
CJR Cook Surgeon Superintendent'
Talk about the late passenger!
The Cutbush's never existed I suppose.
They never embark but seem very skilled at the disembarkation process.
|
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2004 - 5:25 pm: | |
'£1,700,000 Freehold, 5 bedroom house Warwick Gardens, London W14 A substantial period
house built in 1824 by then Borough architect William Cutbush.'
Cool price, cool guy this William Cutbush.
Despite my best efforts I have not been able to track this individual down, but he was a Kensington lad, and if there was a source for the Cutbush fortune then I would reckon that a borough architect from that time would represent that fortune.
I mean one million seven hundren thousand pounds is more than one of my books commands.
Seriously, this must be the Cutbush broker.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3281
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 4:39 am: | |
AP, there seem to be a fair number of mentions of him in the "Times" but so far, they don't tell us that much. Will post later. In the meantime, this man wasn't short of a few bob :
MAR 25th 1871
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3283
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 4:58 am: | |
This man was doing well for a painter. TTC's dad or grandad?
AUG 15th 1829
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3284
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 6:38 am: | |
AP, there's so much about William that I'd better just post a representative sample. No marriage or death yet.
(June 7th 1824, April 21st 1823, and August 26th 1826 respectively).
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3286
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 7:40 am: | |
This was the end of Matilda.
APR 4th 1829
And this shows the truly festering and prolonged feeling over police pensions.
NOV 6th 1916
Robert
 |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 1:02 pm: | |
Nicely found, Robert
I shall seek a bit more. Nice to know that there was indeed a substantial amount of money in the Cutbush clan.
The piece about Matilda certainly rang a bell for me, for this harks back to the dubious connection that I discovered some time ago between the Cutbush clan, Lord Grimthorpe and the Whitechapel Foundary - which if my memory serves me correct either made or at least made good the Big Ben bell for Grimthorpe's marvel of engineering at the Houses of Parliament - I believe that Thomas Mears was a very important man of his time.
More details of that marriage would be most welcome. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1413
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 1:20 pm: | |
Luke Flood Cutbush.
I said the name rang a bell, Robert.
He married a 'Mears' as well.
'Luke Flood CUTBUSH, of St. Mary, Whitechapel, w., & Mary Ann MEARS, lic. 24 May 1831'
Sisters?
Interesting stuff. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3288
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 1:55 pm: | |
Yes AP, probably sisters.
The IGI gives Luke Flood Cutbush as the son of Tom Flood Cutbush and one Sophia. Baptised Oct 14th 1804 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1414
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 2:02 pm: | |
Did Luke Flood Cutbush marry both sisters though, Robert?
Ah! These pesky Cubush folk!
Interestingly Thomas Mears - he was indeed a very famous man who just about made every bell you'll ever hear ring - spent much of his time in North America with his daughters.
His bells were certainly ringing in New York. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3289
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 2:34 pm: | |
Fascinating, AP. Yes, he married both. This Mears business must fit in somehow.
The Sophia that I mentioned was probably Sophia Cope, who married a Thomas Cutbush in 1803.
I've found two marriages for a Tom Flood Cutbush - another one, maybe Luke Flood's brother - and two Clerkenwell marriages for a William Cutbush. These Cutbushes seemed to like to do everything at least twice.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3290
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 3:49 pm: | |
As the nurserymen Cutbushes have proved a constant thorn in my side, crossing the path with their roses and waving their chrysanthemums in my face, I thought we might as well get a laugh out of them. If you ever swallow a fly, AP, simply drink some Cutbush Insecticide. It has remarkable properties!
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1415
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 4:18 pm: | |
Yes, Robert, the Cutbush gardeners are almost as annoying as that Tittymarsh fellow who now claims all of England as his personal garden.
Everytime I turn on the TV I see that gawpy Tittymarsh head loooking at me and everytime I go on the net I meet a bloody Cutbush gardener.
To the devil with the lot of 'em!
This Mears thing is of great interest though, the connections are quite solid and well worth more exploration.
My instinct tells me that we are looking at a period of extraordinary history here.
I dearly wish that everytime I purchased insecticide it turned into whisky.
A nice bell ringing evening. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3291
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 4:46 pm: | |
Hi AP
I remember a rather vitriolic TV critic. some time ago, saying of Titchmarsh : "Surely the kind of face you could never tire of punching."
Yes, the bells business will have to be thoroughly investigated.
Here are some Cutbushes from the 1852 commercial directory. William seems to have moved on from Exmouth St (unless these were just business premises) to Pentonville, but we now have a butcher of all things living in his old street. Interesting address for the hairdresser. Luke Flood is at the same address as he was in 1841, close by the two Cutbush houses.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 6:05 pm: | |
The bells, the bells...
We have Fieldgate Street, which is nice and dandy.
For we know that is a highway between the Cutbush's of the 1820's and 1880's.
We almost see that there is a connection between a family of clockmakers from Kent called Cutbush and a family of bell makers from Kent called Mears - that is where Thomas Mears father learnt his trade - and that the Mears built Grimthorpes bell in Whitechapel while his daughters happily married the same Cutbush while he was casting bells.
And that everywhere that TTC went in the world there was a Thomas Mears bell before he got there. That's if he ever left.
Do you think, Robert, that TTC might have been employed by the Whitechapel Foundary as a clerk?
And THC wrote to Grimthorpe because he was as confused as I am now?
There is something here, Robert, but I'm probably going to have to go off to Tibet for fifty years before I find it.
It's a good bite.
Hairdresser?
I thought they just cut their heads off in those days when their hair got too long. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3293
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 8:12 am: | |
It's an interesting thought, AP - that TTC may have worked for the foundry. I wonder if the company's records survive (I don't suppose they do). Of course, a humble clerk might not be mentioned, but even then there might be something about Luke Flood.
I think I may have a fix on Kate's death - Dec quarter 1922. The trouble is, at 85 she'd have been a bit on the old side, but there don't seem to be any likelier candidates between 1910 and 1922. The person concerned was registered at Camberwell, anyhow.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 5:28 pm: | |
Robert, this might make the thought more interesting:
'Fieldgate Street (opposite) close to the Whitechapel Bell Foundary where the thirteen ton `Big Ben' of the Houses of Parliament and America's Liberty Bell were cast.'
Keeping it in the family so to speak.
Luke lived there, he took his two sister brides back there and TTC inherited the lot, as did Thomas... that is until Kate nicked it.
I find it fascinating that two of the greatest symbols of our modern world of freedom and democracy have their origins in this little story.
The Liberty Bell and Big Ben.
Fieldgate Street has to be the hub. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1203
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 5:48 pm: | |
Have really enjoyed all this history about the Cutbush family
Many thanks to both of you for such fascinating reading!
Natalie |
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