Author: Brian Schoeneman
Sunday, 12 January 2003 - 10:41 pm |        |
All,
I was very happy that Paul devoted such a large section of this book to explaining the different dynamics within the police force during the period. I only wish that I could have postponed my dissertation another few weeks because much of what he wrote was of direct impact to my own writing. So far, I'm happy to say, we've not disagreed on anything. 
Along the lines of the same subject, I'm considering expanding my dissertation into something larger. Paul's section on the police has really got me thinking that a full scale investigation as to what factors contributed to the Ripper not being caught is something that is needed, and that I'd like to do.
Any thoughts on that aspect of Paul's book or my idea?
B |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Sunday, 12 January 2003 - 11:10 pm | |
Hi Brian,
Paul's work is packed with good information about the police issues. However, I'd recommend you consult with Martin Fido - if possible. I think he has shown a great degree of knowledge about the police efforts of the era - and how some of the internal rivalries may have hampered the case.
Mr. Fido's view is that the various police agencies got along well at the lower levels - but among the administrators rivalries created problems.
Best wishes,
Rich |
Author: John Hacker
Monday, 13 January 2003 - 01:46 pm | |
Rich,
I haven't yet finished Paul's book unfortunately. Due to crunch time at work I've got precious little time to devote to serious reading, but after reading about 1/2 way through I have no hesitation in saying that it's one of the best books yet on the case.
The background information provided is absolutely invaluable. Particularly the chapters on the police and on prostitution. With it's meticulous footnotes, it is also one of the best documented books out there.
Paul does a wonderful job of putting the case in it's historical perspective. And by laying the history down first, the reader is better equipped to truly understand the hows and whys of the case. (As opposed to the typical JtR book which seems to fit the history in around the murders themselves.)
It was a great end to a great year for JtR books.
Regards,
John Hacker |
Author: Neale Carter
Monday, 13 January 2003 - 10:06 pm | |
Brian,
Expanding your dissertation as you mention is an excellent idea. Anything that sheds light on why JtR was never caught should be very useful. Whether he was a cunning and sophisticated killer or a deranged psychopath with luck on his side may be indicated by a better understanding of the investigation. Armed with the greatest knowledge of the police and their methods possible, some judgement of suspects' liklihood based on the level of planning required to evade capture should be possible. The spectrum ranges from a person (insane or not) taking opportunites when presented with them, devoid any planning at all through to Ivor's theory of total and meticulous planning of every detail.
We should be able to at least estimate the amount of luck someone with minimal planning would need to evade capture, and how likely this would be to occur on 5 (or so) separate occasions. This probably won't eliminate any suspects as the bar was pretty low then re. investigatory methodolgy, but it may help us think about just how much luck did he need.
Paul Begg's book sounds like an excellent read and will certainly assist this (and many other) line of inquiry.
Neale |
Author: Dan Norder
Monday, 13 January 2003 - 10:29 pm | |
Neale,
At the risk of getting people upset again, I'd like to point out that the term "psychopath" is generally more descriptive of the "cunning and sophisticated killer" than a "deranged" individual.
Otherwise your points are well made. I do think it's necessary and wise to ask just how likely it is that Jack could have escaped crime scenes spread out ove several months if he were deranged. It doesn't seem at all likely to me. Luck only takes you so far. One killing and escape could be luck, two could be a coincidence, four or five is a definite pattern that shouldn't be ignored.
Add in how desperate the denizens of Whitechapel were to find anyone who stood out as weird or different and label that person the killer, and I think it's a very good bet that Jack didn't give any outward signs of madness.
Dan
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Author: Neale Carter
Tuesday, 14 January 2003 - 08:55 pm | |
Dan,
Thanks for the clarification - I intend to look through some of the threads where JtR's mental state is discussed. Can you suggest any?
As you point out there are two issues here. 1. His outward demeanor must not have raised suspicion both with the locals and police
2. Some indication of his state of mind should be able to be derived from the reasons the police failed to positively and publicly identify him; is a disorganised mind almost ruled out by the amount of luck needed to escape numerous times?
Another point for consideration is, does the possibility of different levels of planning, and circumstances of evasion, for each murder indicate more than one killer.
Neale |
Author: Sir Robert Anderson
Wednesday, 15 January 2003 - 12:09 am | |
"As you point out there are two issues here. 1. His outward demeanor must not have raised suspicion both with the locals and police "
Hey Neale,
This may well be true, but I think it is dangerous to assume it. It could very well be that he was brought in for questioning, or even arrested, but there was insufficient evidence to proceed further. The police cast a very wide dragnet and received a lot of tips; all sorts of odd fellows got caught up in it. Don't forget that we have only a portion of the police files to work with; much is missing.
Personally, I believe that the Ripper's actions suggest someone that wasn't "all together" and might well have interfered with him carrying on in a normal fashion. At the very least, I think he would have been regarded by acquaintances as an eccentric character. I also don't think he appeared to be a raving lunatic. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
Sir Robert |
Author: Neale Carter
Wednesday, 15 January 2003 - 09:30 pm | |
Sir Robert,
Perhaps I should have said "His outward demeanor (both during and between kills) must not have raised suspicion both with the locals and police (enough to be brought before a court)." I agree with you that it is probable that he was brought in or at least spoken to by police. It seems the rigour in 1888 in verifying alibis and excluding potential suspects from further investigation is not what we are used to now.
"Personally, I believe that the Ripper's actions suggest someone that wasn't "all together" and might well have interfered with him carrying on in a normal fashion". It is this balance between appearing "normal" enough function in society on some level, and possibly suffering from some mental illness in perpetrating these acts that interests me.
Perhaps we should hand back this thread to thoughts on Mr Begg's book and continue these musings elsewhere.
Neale |
