Archive through 25 October 2002

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Archive through 25 October 2002

Casebook Message Boards: Beyond Whitechapel - Other Crimes: The Sniper (Tarot Card Killer?) in the D.C. area: Archive through 25 October 2002

Author: judith stock Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 03:29 pm
Dear Scott, AMEN, and AMEN!!! I was born in Texas (but escaped safely in 1977), home of the Loony Gun Bearers Brotherhood, Local #364, but until I read your post, I thought the only thing wrong with Louisiana was Fort Polk!! You and I agree as to the reading of the 2nd Amendment, and its' interpretation. Obviously the NRA doesn't, but then most NRA members I have known have been full of horse pucky, so I don't give them much air time. The problem, of course, is putting the genie back in the bottle, and that, I fear, we will never be able to do. We must now live (and die) with our foolishness; it can only get worse as long as the NRA has the largest and most generous lobbyists in Washington, so we'd better hunker down and cover our heads. This latest series of killings in DC has put the insanity in the public eye, but when confronted with a suggestion of simply identifying the lands and grooves left on a bullet by test-firing a new gun as it comes off the line, the NRA says "NOPE, that's infringing on the rights of the soon-to-be gun owner"..sounds like they now are arguing that GUNS have rights. Maybe I should just move to Lichtenstein and be done with it! Peace and safety to you and yours, Scott, J
Author: Christopher T George Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 03:52 pm
Hi, all: Just learned something scary re the suspects, that when they were questioned by the police in Baltimore on October 8, they were parked only a few blocks from where I live. Specifically, according to the Washington Post: "The blue Caprice discovered today was believed to have been approached in Baltimore by police who found Muhammad and Malvo sleeping on Oct. 8, the day after a 13-year-old boy in Bowie was wounded as the eighth victim of the sniper, the sources said. "The car was spotted in a parking lot off 28th Street, near the exit ramp to Interstate 83. The two were allowed to go, although their names were put into an information data bank in Baltimore, the sources said. "'Everyone was looking for a white car with white people,' said one high-ranking police source. Muhammad and Malvo are black males." I drove past that very location early this morning on my way home, at about the same time the authorities would be getting ready to arrest them sleeping in the same car off Route 70 west of Frederick, Maryland. It seems the men were short of cash and were sleeping in the car on a regular basis. Chris
Author: Howard Brown Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 04:28 pm
Dave Radka.........I know a lotta people have beaten me to the punch,but I just wanted to remind you that you were WAY OFF in your "prediction"....Having anti-American sentiment and spouting that you are "pro-al Queida" means about as much as me saying I hate the New York Mets and am pro-Philadelphia Phillies. The two morons that were nabbed ain't affiliated with al-Queida and I don't play left field for the Phils. Mr.George: very scary,indeed,what you describe. Dear Judith: I respect your opinion on the NRA. i am not a member. Its interesting that very few people who commit weapons offenses in the US,are members. Am I correct,Mr.Medine? The problem is that the LEADERSHIP of the NRA,which DOES milk its cadre,COULD do the right thing and display a little sanity in its persistent rejection of ANY gun control. Judith: EVERYONE I KNOW owns a gun. In almost 49 years,I have only known 3 people killed with them. Each of the offenders used guns straight out of a Fisher-Price catalog.Cheap and disposable...As with almost everything,except my buddy Dave Radka,the rank and file will usually follow the leader if led correctly. I know many NRA members who agree with your sentiment to a tee. Monty: you hit the nail right on the head. Amen,my man..... I hope that the police don't take too much credit for apprehending these morons,who actually assisted in their own capture with their "clues".Ha ha !!!!Only if Jack the Ripper had been so dumb or helpful..........By the way,Dave Radka...funny that "someone" mentioned that the State of Washington had more serial killers than England last night.Go check it out,bruddah......Scott:the NRA leadership won't go through the requirements you mentioned because they will claim it'll turn the US into the USSR or some such asinine comparision. What you posted is what MUST be done. Your pal,Howard
Author: David Radka Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 04:49 pm
Alright, now what is the proper question to be asking? The proper question is: Who is the dom and who is the sub of the pair? Posed here first. David
Author: Scott E. Medine Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 04:54 pm
Judith and Howard, It is very rare where I find someone who agrees with my gun control stance in whole or at least in part. I am glad that someone agrees with me. The common belief held by the gun lovers is that a well armed society is a polite society. The NRA loves to quote the statistics from the American West that show that gun related crimes were actually low. In fact, they were, but so was the population, number of guns available and in towns like Dodge City, Kansas laws were passed that made it illegal to carry a gun in the town. Dodge City has become synonymous with wild west lawlessness, in fact, when it came to gun crimes it was rather tame. El Paso Texas and Tombstone Arizona were by far the more adventurous cities. Anyway, because of these stats, most NRA members hold firm to that belief that a well armed society is a polite society. To that I say, Cabrini Green in Chicago, Desire Street in New Orleans, the area of Baton Rouge known as the Bottoms and South Central Los Angeles are well armed societies and I wouldnâ��t step on anyoneâ��s big toe. As far as your question Howard concerning NRA members and gun crimes, I donâ��t know. To tell you the truth, when speaking about the incidents I related, I never thought to ask if they were members. ( Thatâ��s sarcastic humor... no hit against you) Peace, Scott
Author: Michael Raney Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 06:42 pm
Mr. Radka, I don't know why I am allowing my curiosity to get the better of me and ask you a question, but.....why must one of them be a dom and the other a sub? Do you mean one of them must be the leader and one the follower? Is it possible that they are both just idiots? Mikey
Author: Timsta Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 07:35 pm
Scott: Couldn't agree more on the gun registration issue. I have to register my car (and have a valid license to drive it). I can't believe I don't have to register my gun. (If I had one, which I don't. Prospective burglars however take note: I once made a real mess of two armed and meth-fuelled would-be robbers, using nothing but a tire iron.) Regards Timsta
Author: Howard Brown Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 07:43 pm
Yo Mike.......One's a 41 year old and the other his teenaged step-son. Lets not tell D.R. of A.R. fame know we figured it out on our own. Scott: I should have been more specific about the NRA/gun death statement. Its been your experience to deal with umpteen homicides in your law enforcement career. Virtually every site you listed ( you forgot Philly's Badlands and Brownsville in NYC,two more garden spots....) is almost definitely devoid of NRA folk. As far as agreeing with your position,to me there is NO other solution. Even though not participating in the killings themselves directly,the NRA indirectly puts every peace officer's job in jeopardy with their anal insistence that "when guns are outlawed,only blah blah blah.....". Since the NRA is professedly a virulent pro-Law Enforcement outfit,it seems that they should be in the vanguard of pro-police legislation. Agreeing with you,as I said,to me at least,is the only option. Dear Judith....don't fret so much. There will be change,one day,in the interpretation of the Second Amendment. It may take a whole lot of effort,but it will be done. The other day,I helped my 7 year old with some homework.She had to make a sentence using the word,"shot" in it. I suggested "He shot the gun." My daughter got a little frantic and told me that she cannot use that word ( gun ) in school or in homework. She was correct. I went to a PTA meeting and asked the woman in charge about what my kid said. The lady told me that the kids are not allowed to even say the word in class or else they have to go in the proverbial corner. Not only our law enforcement personnel,but our teachers,as we all know,are potential targets in an ever increasing rate. ONLY a sane re-evaluation of the 2nd Amendment will remedy American society's gun problem. I know British people,as well as other Europeans,think "we" are in love with guns over here because of the 200 year old etched in stone 2nd Amendment. Believe me,a whole lot of us aren't..The NRA,for my British amigos,has a super-powerful lobby that makes it extremely hard for change.
Author: Michael Raney Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 07:51 pm
Howard, as soon as I posted, I kicked myself. I don't know what compelled me to even ask! Later, Mikey
Author: Scott E. Medine Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 10:28 pm
Howard, Maybe she should try this one. "I'll have a shot of Crown and a glazed to go." Peace, Scott PS Part of my Ripper research has included me interviewing true doms/dommes and subs especially those involved in edge play and knife play. It has become my experience that those people who use the term dom and sub or domme and sub are those aquainted with the BDSM lifestyle. So I have to wonder which one is Mr.....well never mind.
Author: judith stock Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 11:22 pm
Dear Scott and Howard, I'm not fretting too much; having been born and raised in Texas, the gun culture has always surrounded me. Scott knows what I mean.... and, considering my views on guns, you can only guess how my thoughts were taken!! As my crabby old granny used to say, " I fit (in Texas) like socks on a rooster!" The escape came not a moment too soon! You are both so right; the 2nd Amendment must be re-interpreted or re-written soon, or we will drown in our own blood. It's not only gangstas and druggies who use guns, nor is gun use confined to the worst sections of any town. Children are playing with Dad's gun and shooting their friends and siblings; children are taking guns to school and killing their classmates; children are viewing the use of a gun as a viable, acceptable form of behavior.....either as retribution, revenge, or just a bit of fun. Whether or not guns or people kill people, the very presence of a gun in the house raises the odds to ??? what, Scott? that someone will use it for something other than a weed digger. And the NRA objects to gun locks, too....very sensible, fellas. Enough about that; my views won't change, nor will those of the gun lobby or the NRA. So we must agree to violently disagree, and we few will go on our merry way, feeling as we do. I DO have one question for Scott: what the hell is going on with your computer when you make a contraction of two words? It's weird, but kinda cool, too. Peace, and now I must return to my studies of the true Ripper...Howdy Doody in disguise! J
Author: David Radka Friday, 25 October 2002 - 12:28 am
No, No, No! The dom/sub question has been misinterpreted. 1. We don't know if the 17 year-old is his step son. He says he is, but apparently he simply met the guy in Jamaica. 2. Dom and sub status are not necessarily determined by age. If the younger man were the dom, he'd be telling Mohammed to shoot people to serve his (the dom's) desires. Who did the shooting does not determine who's the dom. It appears the younger man was the one who got frustrated, and called the police to boast of his prowess in killing a woman in Alabama. Perhaps this indicates he's the boss. See what I mean? David
Author: Howard Brown Friday, 25 October 2002 - 06:00 am
Yeah,Dave.I understand.....Makes sense that a 17 year old would drive a 41 year old head case across the country and play out "dom and sub" games as they did.....One question,were they wearing leather AND heels or just leather with their butt cheeks sticking out of their pants ? I know you probably just overlooked this possibly relevant fact,so I just felt like bringing it up,not that you hadn't thought of it first...Good thinking Dave. Real good.
Author: Christopher T George Friday, 25 October 2002 - 08:16 am
Hi, all: It appears that Muhammad met Malvo in Antigua in 1999, when Malvo would have been only 14 years of age. His family says he has been missing from home in Kingston, Jamaica, since his early teens. According to Muhammad's in-laws from his first marriage who were on Larry King's show last night on CNN Muhammad is a controlling individual and wanted to keep his own children on a diet of crackers and honey. So it does appear that Muhammad may have had a dominant influence over Malvo. This might suggest that they did have a father-son-like relationship based on military type discipline and lifestyle. It will be interesting to see what we can learn about their relationship as the case unfolds. Although Muhammad appears to have been a heterosexual male, with two known ex-wives, is it possible there was a homosexual relationship between these two men? As investigators have found, the men seem to have been highly organized to the extent that the car appears to have been fitted out to shoot, with a hole for the muzzle of the Bushmaster rifle and another hole for the scope in the back of the trunk of the Caprice. On the other hand, they do not seem to have had much money for their activities. This would be another argument, I think, against any formal connection with al Queda, for surely if they had been working directly for Bin Laden they would have had plenty of funds for their bloody work. Best regards Chris George
Author: Scott E. Medine Friday, 25 October 2002 - 08:29 am
Judith, I haven't the foggiest idea what is happening with the computer. I think it might be something with the word perfect. From time to time I have missed the shift key and hit alt or control which usually makes weird things happen. Peace, Scott
Author: judith stock Friday, 25 October 2002 - 12:11 pm
Well, Scott, keep it up....whatever it is! Trying to figure out the contractions is keeping me on my toes! And, by the way, there IS an episode of CRACKER (the Robbie Coltrane one, NOT the US version which lasted four minutes) in which an older man, probably late 30's, is attracted to a much younger one, and, at the behest of the youth, the older man not only follows along and aids in murder, but commits murder to "save" the younger man from "danger". Just a thought; the dynamics which drive people are complex and often incomprehensible. Age is not necessarily the determining factor in who has the dominant role in a relationship. Whatever went on between Muhammed and Malvo, it will take years to figure out. While apparently cunning, these two had no money and often acted like eejits, AND they went to sleep in a public place in a car which had a BOLO on it......go figure. Cheers, J
Author: Monty Friday, 25 October 2002 - 12:48 pm
Scott, Thanks for your post of yesterday. Its extremely hard for us Limeys to get their heads around the fact that it is fairly easy to obtain guns in the States. Infact its a right. Yet when it is abused I find it even more mind boggling that this right isnt restricted to those in authority, ie Law enforcers and the Military. I would go a little farther than you. It is against the law to take someones life yet you are allowed to own a piece of equipment which is soley designed to indeed take someones life. Why do the people let this happen ?? I cannot comprehend the reasoning behind it. As you said, the law is an antiquated law. It has no connection to the here and now. Why cannot it be seen that the removal of guns from those that had no need for them would have saved 13 lives in the past 2-3 weeks ? Apathy is rife. Monty
Author: Michael Raney Friday, 25 October 2002 - 04:05 pm
Scott, I believe he has answered our question........We now know which he is! Mikey
Author: Dan Norder Friday, 25 October 2002 - 04:32 pm
One of the most interesting things I think has been mentioned but not highlighted enough: the authorities could have caught these two a week earlier if they weren't so fixated on looking for a white van. If a modern police force that knows eyewitness testimony is unreliable can fall into this trap, imagine how many multitudes more similar mistakes the authorities probably made during the Jack the Ripper case. They may have had Jack and let him go, missed him entirely, and drummed several "facts" into the heads of everyone studying the case that have no solid basis at all. And, back to the sniper case... the guy they arrested for faking his eyewitness report... uh, almost hate to say it, but one of the reasons cops said it was obvious he was making things up was that he said the shooter was dark skinned, black or middle eastern, and everyone else said he was white... but the guys they have now are both black... ouch. If I remember correctly he also reported things that turned out to be completely wrong, and the cops have reason to believe it was willfull instead of accidental, but the situation made me wonder for a while if the one person giving accurate info was arrested for it. Dan
Author: Scott E. Medine Friday, 25 October 2002 - 05:02 pm
Mike, Indeed he has. Peace, Scott
Author: Howard Brown Friday, 25 October 2002 - 06:03 pm
Dan........Good post. The moron who reported that it was a White Man in a white van,cost 4 people their lives. I've heard that the 2 killers were actually pulled over and let go by Md. Or Va. police because they were sweep searching for a suspect( based on his eyewitness statement ). Hopefully,he will recieve many years in prison for his intentionally false remarks.........Oh yeah,once again "Profilers" have proven their value: Zero.
Author: Dan Norder Friday, 25 October 2002 - 06:45 pm
Howard, I don't follow. The guy arrested was not the first person to suggest a white van, lots of people did. In fact, the person charged with the false report was at a shooting after the cops had already let the killers go because they were looking for a white colored vehicle. You can't blame that on him. In fact, it also looks like the cops missed several very important clues (like the killer confessing repeatedly with calls to the tip line) while they searched elsewhere. Hopefully we'll get good details on this later. It might be another repeat of the police mistakes in the Son of Sam case. But then, of course, it's rough to sort through all the data and find the real killer. I don't know if we can blame them, as they're only human. But, again, let's wait until we know more. And, as far as profilers go, what info do you think they gave that turned out to be wrong in this case? I don't remember what all they said, but I don't recall anything in the profiles that was incorrect. They said they were looking for someone with some possible military experience but not trained as a sniper and a possible accomplice for getaway driving. I don't remember the rest. Do you have a link to what the profilers had said? Dan
Author: Howard Brown Friday, 25 October 2002 - 08:29 pm
Dan: If what you state,that the black fellow was held over AFTER the cops had allowed the snipers go on a sweep search,then I stand corrected and apologize for the misinformation. I was repeating what someone told me verbatim and should know better........I don't have a link,Dan,but I did see a female broadcaster grill,Clark Van "something",about why some profilers were apparently looking for a White male and a lone White male at that. He didn't get defensive. He explained that "they" were going by what "they" felt was the best guess as to the identity. I remember hearing the latter part of your post's content prior to the WPVI( Philadelphia ABC ) program and would agree with that wholeheartedly. My remark about profilers' abilities as zero is more my reaction to the hype they recieve. They certainly are intelligent people. Their status as crime solvers is what I object to. The profiler's name,I believe is Clark Van Zant (?). Again,if wrong,thanks for filling me in. I was informed that the black guy claimed he saw a white guy do the shooting. Howard
Author: David O'Flaherty Friday, 25 October 2002 - 09:14 pm
Dan and Howard, Here's a link to another story about profilers and the DC sniper case: Did Criminal Profilers Blow It in the Sniper Case? Cheers, Dave
Author: Garry Wroe Friday, 25 October 2002 - 09:53 pm
Hi Howard. To be fair to the profilers involved in this case, they were only able to base their conclusions on the information fed to them by the police investigators. Unfortunately, much of this information was inaccurate. One police source, for example, stated that the shooter was firing from wooded terrain, using a fishing rod driven into the ground to steady his rifle. But it now seems that the shots were fired from the car itself, this parked away from the woods. The uniqueness of this series of crimes is another consideration that accounts for the investigative confusion that for a time was all too apparent. Such investigations benefit hugely from the analysis of similar cases. These often yield important behavioural patterns which can provide focus to an ongoing investigation. In this instance, however, there appears to have been no such precedent and therefore no indicators that might have assisted the task force. One can only sympathize with those involved. Having said this, though, the further the series progressed, the more I discerned similarities with the (English) Michael Sams case. Hopefully, more information will emerge over the coming months. I'm sure that I speak on behalf other non-American posters in passing on my best wishes to all those directly and indirectly affected by these events. Hopefully, you will all be sleeping a little safer ... until the next time. Regards, Garry Wroe.