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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
The Sniper (Tarot Card Killer?) in the D.C. area
Casebook Message Boards: Beyond Whitechapel - Other Crimes: The Sniper (Tarot Card Killer?) in the D.C. area
Author: David Radka
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 10:12 pm |        | In the United States, gun restriction is believed in mostly by people who live in the cities. Country people, and there is a great deal more wild country here than in England, are used to a tradition of gun ownership, gun use, gun rights, gun safety, and gun responsibility. It is a part of the lore of their lands, it's in their blood. It runs very deep. How can you deny someone living in North Dakota the right to have a gun to shoot rabbits on his land? People like this do in fact see the gun as close to their hearts, very much the same as basic relationships, such as that between wife and husband, or religious faith. They are quite different from people who use guns in urban areas.
This is the central issue that the UK observer has to understand about the US. This feature of life is different here than over there. How can you retain guns in the country, but restrict them in the city?
David |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 11:49 pm | | Everyone,
I agree that we need more stringent gun control laws, and we also need to enforce the ones we've already got. When John Muhammad bought the rifle used in the recent murders, he had a restraining order against him and should have failed his background check. How he got around this is not yet clear.
Dave |
Author: judith stock
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 12:27 am | | Dear David,
As someone who was raised in a country area, moved to a country area, and then retired to the most country of all the areas (the Blue Ridge Mountains in the Shenandoah Valley) I could not disagree MORE! But then, you all know how I feel about guns,anyway. All I want to say about Dave's theory is that I think it rubbish; for some reason, the citizens of this country have had, and will obviously continue to have, a love affair with guns. We don't need to fend off attacking bunnies, nor do we need protection from maniacal crows; I have yet to see a killer squirrel, and probably will not live long enough to see a violent chipmunk! If one puts aside the community of eejits who feel the urge to go out every year and kill multitudes of deer to prove their manhood, what remains is a vast mob of gun owners who have no practical use for all that weaponry. Will someone PLEASE tell me WHAT one hunts with an Uzi? OTHER than people, I mean. That said, I know of one family who is fed by what the father hunts; they are so poor, the way they live should shame us all. For those who sustain life by hunting, I have no issue. For the rest, bushwah!
The city gun vs the country gun argument may have held water when sabre toothed tigers were roaming our back yards, but now? NOT!
Sorry, David; I swore I wouldn't do this anymore. Obviously I am full of it, too! Just can't seem to get my mouth under control these days.
On THAT note, I again withdraw for a while. I sincerely apologise to all I may have offended, and will try to stay quiet. I DON'T apologise for feeling the way I do about this plague.
For a great history of this country and guns, and all that implies, try reading GUNFIGHTER NATION; it's an honest examination of what we are and how we got that way.
Cheers to all, and even you, David,
J |
Author: Vila
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 12:28 am | | This is a red letter day, folks. I find myself actully *agreeing* with David Radka in a post!
Since I was brought up in just such a rural setting, firearm use and safety was something I was trained in from an early age. As I grew older, it was a shock to me to find out that some people actually fear to own or use a gun of any sort. That's about equal to someone being afraid of a car, or wanting to take everyone's vehicles away so that no one can be harmed by them.
The entire pro/anti gun arguement is so rife with emotionalism and rhetoric that I now hate to even *see* the debate start up again. I already know that nothing is going to change anyone's mind, and nothing said in such a debate is going to affect reality in any way except to injure each other's feelings.
Can we get back to Jack the Ripper now?
Vila |
Author: David Radka
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 01:04 am | | It appears to me that people posting these boards are listening to invective about me behind my back. Gossip is a very cowardly thing. Speak as you find.
David |
Author: judith stock
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 02:23 am | | Vila is absolutely correct; I had sworn NOT to respond to any more pro-gun posts. I apologise, AGAIN, to all. And to you, Vila, please accept the apology from a bitchy old woman who has never been able to keep her mouth shut, especially over things that she feels deeply. You're right: no one will change his/her mind over this. It's a touchy issue, and one we will be dealing with forever, I think. There's just no way to put the genie back into the bottle. More's the pity for all of us.
And, David, what the hell are you on about NOW?
On another note, is anyone else willing to vote for Chief Moose for just about damn near any office he wants? To all who worked on the Sniper case, and to those who will be continuing the investigation, so the case can be as airtight as possible, I say "well done" and "thank you." We know that all the i's must be dotted, and all the t's crossed, and it would be a crying shame if this case were lost over inattention to detail. Congratulations on cracking a seemingly insoluble case, and you have my thanks, at the very least.
Cheers and apologies,
J |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 06:37 am | | Hi, Garry:
The sniper shots may or may not have fired from the Caprice each time. In the case of the schoolchild shot in Prince George's County, Maryland, the undergrowth in the wooded area where the tarot card was found was beaten down which seemed to indicate they had shot from there. Possibly the shopping center shootings and maybe the gas station crimes were done from the vehicle itself, but a number of the others may not have been--the Prince George's County and the Ashland, Virginia (Ponderosa), shootings come to mind as a couple of the incidents in which the vehicle may not have been used as the shooter's platform.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Garry Wroe
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 11:09 am | | Hi Chris.
Thanks for the information. I've been following your postings with interest over the last few weeks and have to say that they have been infinitely more informed and cohesive than the output from CNN and Sky. Thanks once again.
Best wishes,
Garry Wroe. |
Author: Howard Brown
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 12:12 pm | | | Dave Radka...I agree with you too. The objection that I have with the whole issue is the ease that felons have with access to guns. If Vila wants or I want to own a rifle to participate in deer hunting,whats the problem?.....Other than the police or military,who the hell needs assault weapons? Judith: over 99 percent of rifle owners don't commit murders. I know you know that. Its a tough issue. |
Author: David Radka
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 02:45 pm | | Notice who it was who asked the right critical questions at the right time to bring the discussion to a decisive phase.
Word to the wise,
David |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 04:34 pm | | Hi, all:
The Washington Post today has published images of the three-page letter left by the sniper suspects at the Ashland, Virginia, shooting scene on October 19. Annotations compare it to the note on the tarot card left on October 7 at the Prince George's County, Maryland, shooting at Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
In the earlier message, the writer had written, "Mr. Policeman, I am God." In the October 19, note, the wording states, "For you, Mr. Police, call me God." Sources are speculating that the notes were written by the younger man, Malvo, and that he was the one who was interested in tarot cards.
Also in the Post today is an accompanying article on the notes. Since the October 19 Ashland note and the October 7 Prince George's County expressly asked the police not to release the contents, including the $10 million demand in the Ashland note, this would explain why the complete contents of the notes were not revealed by the authorities before the capture of the men.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Dan Norder
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 08:29 pm | | Now that the text of a letter is out, we will undoubtedly have people trying to find coded messages...
Because obviously anyone smart enough to evade authorities for this many killings isn't stupid enough to write "dollar"/"Juwes" when it should be "dollars"/"Jews" so it must mean something else entirely. So anyone with any brains can see that "dollar"/"Juwes" is reference to "Georgian pastor Dr. Creflo A. Dollar of World Changers Church International"/"some long forgotten figures in an obscure Masonic story" which has been covered up by authorities to hide the undeniable link to "fundamentalist Christianity"/"Masonry" of which leading politicians and law enforcement officials are members.
Some less than intellectually gifted people already claim that Moose's "Like a Duck in a Noose" is supposed to be code for LADIN, or Osama bin Ladin (which although we normally see spelled Laden is sometimes spelled Ladin), except it'd really be LDN or LADIAN if it were a code.
The fact of the matter is that these snipers were not particularly smart or educated. In fact, you could say they were pretty stupid:
"Yeah, we have this deactivated stolen credit card (don't trace where we got it from or where we used it in the past, please), put ten million dollars in it so we can use it at ATMs worldwide (and don't trace us through it or nothing). And we mean it too, we killed those other people in that crime in another state you think is totally unrelated. Go check my fingerprints if you don't believe me... D'oh!"
Conspiracy theorists hold the peculiar belief that not only are criminals a lot more devious and intelligent than they have any right to be, but that they express themselves through bizarre actions which would seem to serve no logical purpose other than to leave clues, which isn't very smart. Worse than that, these types of people believe that they have seen through these supposed conspiracies because they are more intelligent than all the professionals and experts in the area put together.
People are funny that way.
Dan |
Author: David Radka
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 10:30 pm | | Mr. Norder,
Your above analysis seems rather devious or punctate on several counts:
1. You mean that Jack the Ripper may not have been quite so smart, because here are two snipers who certainly weren't. But there are numerous examples of the Ripper being smart. He killed silently and successfully, getting away each time. He was never caught. He left the murder scenes in time to avoid capture. I don't believe your comparison of the snipers to JtR is an apt one in this respect.
2. How do you know about the dollar/Juwes matter? How do you know that the spelling "Juwes" may have indicated stupidity on his part? Perhaps he had some reason for the spelling he used. Evidence, please.
3. You write: "Conspiracy theorists hold the peculiar belief that not only are criminals a lot more devious and intelligent than they have any right to be, but that they express themselves through bizarre actions which would seem to serve no logical purpose other than to leave clues, which isn't very smart." This is not a peculiar belief. It is based on more than a hundred years of facticity. Sexual serial murderers (Bundy, JtR, etc.) have repeatedly demonstrated considerable intelligence combined with gross unnecessary exposure to the authorities, right at the same crime scene. This is a part of the territory, and requires positive interpretation. Bringing up this point is not an error on the part of writers or conspiracy theorists.
David |
Author: Dan Norder
Saturday, 26 October 2002 - 11:13 pm | | 1. Jack was "smart"? How so? For getting away from the murder scenes and killing 5 people or so...? Yet the snipers got away from, what, 11 successful kills (counting the robbery) and a handful of unsuccessful ones, and you think they aren't smart? Why the difference? Because they got caught? They got caught because they confessed to a crime that had fingerprint evidence at the scene and authorities could quickly use computers to track anyone who fit the evidence (including prints) -- neither of which were available back in the late 1880s. Jack wouldn't have to be any more smart than the snipers and could have even been less intelligent.
2. How do I know that Juwes might have indicated someone who didn't know how to spell Jews? Because that's what all the people who saw the writing at the time thought it meant, and they ought to know because they were more familiar with spelling of their time than we are. Beyond that, it's a leap of logic to assume that Jack even wrote it... if you insist on parroting the same old junk about the Goulston Graffito, please take it to the appropriate thread.
3. I'm talking about serial killers creating logic puzzles at the crime scenes that some conspiracy theorist can crack to solve the case instead using the normal tedious investigation procedures. What "gross unnecessary exposure to the authorities" do you think Bundy did? Or Jack, for that matter (even though it's pretty silly to try to bring him up as an example to support the idea that Jack the Ripper would have left coded clues -- talk about circular logic)?
But it doesn't surprise me that you are the first to jump in to show support for conspiracy theories.
Dan |
Author: Caroline Morris
Sunday, 27 October 2002 - 07:12 am | | Montgomery Alabama, Montgomery Maryland, ha ha. No one could possibly place it together. And indeed for there is no reason for anyone to do so.
What was that theory about serial killers nearly always doing the dirty on their own doorstep, rather than travelling many miles to do it on someone else's?
Any more thoughts on the possibility that, like the snipers, we could be dealing with Jacks One and Two - different MOs, bagging different trophies, competing with one another for the spoils of their funny little big game hunt? Even perhaps writing competing letters to 'Dear Boss' and Lusk, collaborating on Openshaw?
The latest is just one more in a never-ending series of unique cases that we may as well use for comparison purposes to see if any new light can be shed.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 27 October 2002 - 07:54 am | | Hi, Dan, David, and Caz:
The authorities will be correct to check out if these two suspects had any formal ties to organized terrorism. However, the indications are that they operated alone. Their financial destitution and the venal motive of asking for $10 million plus the murder-robbery of the liquor store in Montgomery, Alabama, would argue that they had no ties to al Queda. Muslim scholars have also pointed out that their boast "I am God" would be against the dictates of Islam. I am though curious about the gun port that they had in the Caprice, and whether that was of their own devising or if they somehow had instruction or advice on that.
Caz, the parallels, if we are to seek them, extend even further: e.g., Montgomery County, Maryland - Montgomery, Alabama; Washington, D.C., - Washington State; Takoma, Washington - Takoma Park, Maryland. There are probably other concidences that we can uncover as well, if we are of that bent.
Incidentally, if we really want to stir the pot: There is a serial killer at work in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. John Allen Muhammad's ex-wife lives in Baton Rouge, and Muhammad and Malvo are known to have visited there in July. Muhammad (formerly John Allen Williams) was in the Louisiana National Guard for six years. A recent FBI profile of the Baton Rouge serial killer describes, not surprisingly, "the unidentified culprit as a white male between the ages of 25 and 35." Could the killers though be instead two black men aged 17 and 41?
All the best
Chris George |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 27 October 2002 - 10:41 am | | Hello All,
Actually, I believe the most interesting and relevant connection to the Ripper case is the continued use of a folktale by a serial killer.
The Washington area sniper wanted the police to read aloud the words. 'We have caught the sniper like a duck in a noose.' This is a reference to a Cherokee Indian folktale about an arrogant rabbit that was tricked by the duck he tried to catch. Now, one can argue whether or not the words 'From hell' derive from the Grimm's folktale, 'The Devil's Sooty Brother' - I happen to think that is does - but no one can refute the claim that the the Openshaw letter references 'Duffy and the Devil', the Cornish version of the Grimm's folktale, Rumplestiltskin.
It's interesting to note that the 'Jack the Ripper' letter, along with the Openshaw letter, the 'From hell' letter and the 'duck in a noose' reference, all share the same 'trickster' motif.
Furthermore, when one considers the use of magical folktales, the Tarot card, the use of the words, 'I am God' and possible connections with Jamaica, there is the chance that this case, just like the Ripper case, will finally 'boil' down to 'Dat 'Ole Black Magic'?
Rob |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 27 October 2002 - 02:10 pm | | Hi, Rob:
Or in the case of the Tarot card killers, Dat Ole Debbil, Greed?
Chris |
Author: Dan Norder
Sunday, 27 October 2002 - 04:04 pm | | Chris,
Well, according to a news site I checked, the Lousianna killer left some DNA that linked the victims to each other as serial victims, so it should be a simple matter to find out if one of the two snipers were involved. I'd guess they weren't, but I do hope they check just in case.
Robert,
Thanks for providing examples of the kinds of theories I was talking about. I certainly do refute the claim that the writer of the Openshaw letter references "Duffy and the Devil" as there's nothing in it that mentions anything from the story at all (unless you are talking about some other letter). Even if it did, there's no proof that the Ripper letters were written by the killer anyway. I should also point out that referencing children's literature (by the snipers or by the writers of the Jack letters) wouldn't be a link to black magic anyway.
Dan |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 27 October 2002 - 04:45 pm | | Hi, Dan:
I agree that the police should check out whether Muhammad and Malvo had anything to do with the Baton Rouge killings. DNA might exclude them. Another item to say is that if they are guilty of the crimes they at present stand accused, they might have been strictly shooters and used no other means to despatch their victims.
Police in Washington State are looking into a possible link between John Allen Muhammad and the February 2002 unsolved homicide of Keenya Cook in Tacoma. Cook was alone in the house with her infant on February 16 when she answered the door and was shot in the face with a .45-caliber handgun. Although Cook apparently did not know Muhammad, her aunt, an ex-business associate of Muhammad's (she helped Muhammad launch an unsuccessful car repair business almost 10 years ago), had sided with the John Muhammad's ex-wife when the two became estranged two years ago. Cook shared the Tacoma house with her aunt, Isa Nichols.
Police are investigating whether the handgun used in the Cook crime might match the handgun found in the car when Muhammad and Malvo were apprehended on October 24. Montgomery, Alabama, police are interested in the same handgun in case it is the gun that was used to kill one woman and wound during the September 21 robbery attempt outside a state-owned liquor store. If Muhammad and/or Malvo were involved in the Tacoma, WA and Montgomery, AL, gun crimes as well as the ones in Maryland, D.C., and Virginia, they would appear to be cold and callous killers--as if we didn't already make that assumption about them.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 30 October 2002 - 12:14 pm | | David, Howard and Vila,
They shoot rabbits in North Dakota ???
Why ??
Are these rabbits armed too ??? Do they roam the countryside with a Uzi, dirty white vest and a bandana ??
So 99 per cent of gun owners do not commit murder, but does that justify the 1 per cent ?
Tell that one to Mr Franklin.
You may be stable gents but I'd rather not run the risk thank you very much.
Between my last post and this I have heard of a Gulf Vet who has shot dead a number of people.
Over here the last gun outrage, on a similar scale to the Sniper, was back in Dunblane 1996.
The sole reason for a car is to transport you from A to B.
The sole reason for the gun is to kill.....period.
It has no other function and Joe Blow has no need for such a item. Arguments for are flimsy. David has shown that by resorting to his incoherant, paranoid driven jibes.
Gun hunting is pointless and antiquated. It only exists in the US (and here) as a sport (and I use that word loosely, I see no sport nor fair play in it) because quenches the hunters desire to kill. That is the aim right ?
There are far more humaine and effective ways to keep a vermin population down so dont give me that bullax.
So give me valid reasons. What are the cons for Gun ownership ?
Your damn right that life is different here. I didnt have to look over my shoulder while I pulled in for petrol this past month.
Did You ??
Monty |
Author: Howard Brown
Wednesday, 30 October 2002 - 06:51 pm | | | Monty: Some people enjoy getting out in nature and tapping into their primal side by popping a deer off at 100 yards,skinning,gutting,and preparing the meat. Maybe even mounting the head of their kill as a trophy/reminder of the experience. Beats the hell out of sitting in a cubicle for 8 hours a day ! Besides,what trophy could one bring home and mount? A pen? Hunting rocks ! |
Author: David Radka
Wednesday, 30 October 2002 - 08:45 pm | | Monty,
First you write...
"The sole reason for the gun is to kill.....period. It has no other function and Joe Blow has no need for such a item. Arguments for are flimsy. David has shown that by resorting to his incoherant, paranoid driven jibes."
And then you write...
"Your damn right that life is different here. I didnt have to look over my shoulder while I pulled in for petrol this past month."
And you call ME paranoid?
David |
Author: Howard Brown
Wednesday, 30 October 2002 - 10:15 pm | | | Monty: You commented that "Joe Blow" has no need for guns,period,and that it serves no other purpose other than to kill. Thats not true. The majority of gun-owners have them for protection. Intellectually,their use can be defended or dismissed with equally "logical" reasons. I used to have a couple myself. Had I gotten into a fight,I would have used my hands to whomp some ass,not resort to a gun. However,if some intruder made his way into my hacienda,it would have been lights out for them. In another reality,my friend,I would agree with you. Not in this one,Monty.....I think you are a pretty sensitive and conscientious man,from your posts,and I respect your opinion. Howard |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 31 October 2002 - 02:33 am | | Hi, Monty et al.:
Monty, relevant to this discussion, there is an interesting new film out by the maverick filmmaker and social commentator Michael Moore called "Bowling for Columbine" -- the title being of course an allusion to the school shootings of recent memory.
The following is part of a New Yorker review of the movie in the issue of October 28:
'"Bowling for Columbine" is Moore's sorrowful take on a familiar, humiliating question: Why does the United States have the highest murder rate of any advanced industrial nation? "Too many guns out there" would be the standard liberal answer. After all, it's hard to get a gun in London and practically impossible in Tokyo, but it's notoriously easy in Houston, St. Louis, and rural Michigan. Moore, who grew up in the gun culture of Michigan and is himself a lifetime member of the N.R.A., hauls up the usual statistics, but then he trips over Canada, a country that consumes the same violent popular culture that we do and has plenty of guns--seven million for a population of thirty-one million people--but suffers fewer than two hundred gunshot murders annually (as opposed to our ten thousand). . .'
Moore feels that the difference between the United States and Canada is paranoia. The people he meets across the river from Detroit in Windsor, Ontario, all claim they leave their doors unlocked. The article continues: 'Slowly, through an accumulation of documentary materials--home movies, gun ads, interviews with militiamen staunchly defending the Michigan wilderness ("If you're not armed, you're not responsible," one says)--an absurdist portrait emerges of America as a paranoid nation. Moore traces our anxiety to guilt over slavery and the slaughter of Native Americans. An obsessive fear of attack causes us to stockpile arms, which have a habit of going off. As analysis, this is reductive, and Moore's satirical scattershot method offers no way of distinguishing real and pathological fears. But when he follows his nose--say, by tracing his own connections to Eric Harris, one of the Columbine shooters--he implicates himself in what he hates and fears, and he emerges as a wounded patriot searching for a small measure of clarity."
Sounds like Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" might be worthwhile to see.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 31 October 2002 - 10:12 am | | Monty et al,
Ask any law enforcement officer here in the U.S. and they will tell you that by far the officer that has the greatest chance of being shot on the job by a legal gun owner is the wildlife, fish and game officer. Simply because everyone they come into contact with has a gun, and they are usually confronting these happy NRA card carrying outdoorsmen in some of the most secluded and remote places.
As far as people who like to quote statistics how about 125 wildlife and fisheries officers killed in the line of duty between 1986 - 2000. The statistic shows that of the 125 killed 102 were killed by NRA members. For our European friends NRA is the National Rifle Association.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Monty
Friday, 01 November 2002 - 05:26 am | | David, Howard, Scott, Chris T, me mudda na fadda, his holiness and Mrs Jimkins of 50 Andover Ave W5,
David,
Howard,
Post #1 Thanks for confirming my point about the pleasure thing,
Post #2 Believe or not, I can see you point, very valid. And if it comes to the defence of ones family....hell, I'd probably do the same though I hope it shall never come to that for you.
And thank you for those words, I shall take them as a compliment.
Its just that I see it like this, take away the gun and it results in less gun related deaths.
I know you guys aint stupid and I know that cultures are different and yes, it would be bloody hard to impliment,but its a start.
My last post on this, though we disagree I still think that you guys are the best..(paw,paw) yes even thee Mr Radka !
Monty
 |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 02 November 2002 - 01:26 am | | Snipers 24 Hours
Mobil, Subway, The Donut Connection,
convenience store crap in bright light,
corner sign hawks gas $1.49 to $1.65.
You swipe your bankcard, gas up
yards from where we snipers enjoy
a brownie, snooze in our blue Caprice.
Blood on bodywork by gas pumps, death smudge.
Cops arrive, we check into EconoLodge, order pizza.
Morning, run five miles, work out at the Y,
visit health food store. While I lounge
by checkout, jive the gal I'm a health guru
from up north, the kid ranges the aisles
cramming pockets of his long black coat
with plastic bottles--more health junk
to barter downtown to make a buck,
to fill up our Caprice killing machine,
hunt in America's suburban streets,
One Shot, One Kill, I Am God.
Christopher T. George |
Author: Elizabeth P. Cochran
Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 01:37 pm | | Loved it, Chris.
Do you think these guys are just a coupla psychopaths or could they really be part of a bigger (terrorist connected) problem? |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 03 November 2002 - 02:21 pm | | Hi, Elizabeth:
I think the crime spree credited to these suspects speaks for itself. Any of the supposed anti-American pronouncements of John Allen Muhammed appears to be lip service. There is a school of thought that he was committing the murders in the Washington, D.C., area to both extort money from the Federal government and cover-up his possible planned murder of his ex-wife who lives in Clinton, Maryland. As it happens, if those were his true intentions, he was foiled in both of these aims.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Vicki
Monday, 04 November 2002 - 11:33 am | | Chris and Elizabeth,
Muhammed was asking for an awful lot of money, perhaps to give everyone the impression that they were a terrorist group? Reminds me of the Unabomber always using the pronoun "we."
Vicki |
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