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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through 24 October 2002
Casebook Message Boards: Beyond Whitechapel - Other Crimes: The Sniper (Tarot Card Killer?) in the D.C. area:
Archive through 24 October 2002
Author: David O'Flaherty
Wednesday, 23 October 2002 - 04:22 pm |        | Hi, Rick
Ah, okay--as long as you weren't charged to visit grass 
The Biograph is a movie theater on North Lincoln Avenue. In the 1930s, The gangster John Dillinger was ambushed outside by the FBI and shot dead. It's my understanding the Biograph is no longer operating, but up until recently they were still operating and you could sit in the same seat, painted black, in which John Dillinger watched his last movie--I believe it was 'The David Radka Story' starring Sooty.
Hmmm--the Pump House. I've never been, but I know the Pump Room, Sinatra's favorite Chicago restaurant. Is the Pump House downtown by any chance, near the Water Tower? I think there's a museum there. Anyway, I've never had the pizza there, but I have had the pizza at Gino's. It was awful--cornbread crust and when we used the parmesean cheese shakers, roaches came tumbling out. Ugh! I don't like roach pizza. However, Pizzeria Uno is cleaner and has the best pizza I've ever had.
Cheers,
David |
Author: Eliza Cline
Wednesday, 23 October 2002 - 09:25 pm | | Wow, lighten up, David...you are sounding paranoid. As an American myself I don't see any anti-American bias here. Most of us who study true crime end up with the inescapable conclusion that there is a dark and disturbing side to human nature, and geography has nothing to do with it...no one here said it did.
No, a lot of British don't like Bush's obsession with Iraq but I can tell you that a lot of Americans don't either. But that is a different issue and I don't think anyone here is being influenced by it. |
Author: Howard Brown
Wednesday, 23 October 2002 - 10:03 pm | | | Dear Eliza...Whattsamatta for you?..Dave Radka is,as usual,correct in linking Mr.George's thinly veiled hatred of these here United States with his unspoken( but certainly felt....) belief that Iraq,the Sniper,and the FACT he is jealous that Americans lead the league in Most Heinous Crimes,are all connected. Now back to my crack pipe.......................................................Warwick: You certainly picked a great city to visit in Chicago when you visited the US.Hard to beat that selection Hope you tried a Chicago Hot Dog( maybe the best in the World)................................. English folks don't hold a candle to us in bizarre crimes...3 miles from my house,Gary Heidnik made soup out of streetwalkers and would not have been caught for a long,long time had one girl not escaped...There is,unfortunately,a rapidly growing class of castoffs that fall through the cracks and are never heard of again. Over 20 people( most under 18) have been murdered in West Philly within the last 2 months in a street-drug war and thats not unusual !!Only the kidnapping of a 7 year old girl brought attention to the battling druggies....... Cops I know have told me that some nearby states( Jersey and Delaware ) used to sweep their streets of homeless and mentally imbalanced people and drop them off in vans in Center City Philadelphia...Fully 25 percent of my city is below the poverty level....and its getting worse.So as much as we would like to think we are progressing socially,realistically we are going backwards and rapidly..We all remember The Manson Family and how people were horrified at their acts. Yet they will if not already look like amateurs compared to the horrors to come.Even the state of Washington in the ostensibly serene Northwest,tops England in crimes,most notably serial killers. So,Brits,don't worry...you're Number 2 and will stay that way.....HB |
Author: judith stock
Wednesday, 23 October 2002 - 11:13 pm | | Well, get ready for the Pacific Northwest to take another hit! The Feebies are now saying that they are looking for two men who lived in Tacoma, and most likely were military (trained at Fort Lewis, one presumes). This reminds me of a CRACKER episode.......hmmmmmm. Anyway, that's the latest from the world of good news and cheer. They have dug up a tree trunk and are bringing it to DC to remove bullets from it, presumably, and the overhead shots showed a crew digging, most industriously, in the back yard of the suspect's residence.
And, as an aside, I'm not sure which side of the Pond holds the record for gross and disgusting serial killers....both the Yanks AND the Brits have some pretty interesting entries in THAT race ......but does it really matter? Or is there an election being held that no one knows about?
News at 11:00.....
Cheers,
J |
Author: David Radka
Wednesday, 23 October 2002 - 11:42 pm | | I am not a paranoid person. Ms Cline does not know me personally, and her opinion that I am paranoid is based on no personal information whatever about me that she has. Mr. George has repeatedly and falsely referred to me as paranoid on these message boards; apparently Ms Cline has picked up the baloney from him and repeats it reflexively above.
Gossip is a very bad thing to pass around. It is among the most evil wrongs you can do to someone, because they have no defense. From people who pass around gossip, I expect to learn nothing edifying concerning the Whitechapel murders.
David |
Author: David Radka
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 12:06 am | | From the CNN Web site, just posted:
"Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose, whose department is leading the investigation, is expected to announce the names of two men wanted for questioning in connection with the sniper investigation, according to federal law enforcement sources.
The men are John Allen Williams, who is also known as Mohammed Williams, and John Lee Malvo, according to law enforcement sources."
Mohammed Williams? Did I hear that right? Mohammed? Who was it who suggested a possible al Qaeda connection first? What was that man's name? Does anyone here need an itty bitty reminder?
David |
Author: judith stock
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 12:19 am | | Actually, David, the man's name is John Allen Mohammed or Williams, not Mohammed Williams, and (someone KICK me for doing this) SO WHAT? Does the mere mention of a name send you off into al Qaeda land? There are millions of Muslims who are not terrorists; there are also millions of people who choose aliases that might be convenient. Does the name alone send you over the edge? Does a Muslim name automatically mean the man is connected with terrorists? Do you see terrorists coming out of the woodwork? Then perhaps, babe, you might up your Prozac dosage. I really do worry about you when you get like this, Dave.
J |
Author: Ally
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 07:19 am | | | Not only are they not connected to al qaeda (other than possible juvenile fantasy) they aren't a diversionary tactic in the bigger plot to drive a big tanker truck into DC and blow it up either. This isn't al qaeda. This is two men who read too many gun and soldier magazines and latched on to the flag-waving of the mental defectives who felt empowered by 9-11. |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 09:19 am | | Hi, all:
Although the men do not appear to have been al Queda operatives or to have been trained by al Queda, they appear to have been sympathetic with the Muslim terrorists. Several federal sources told the Seattle Times that Muhammad and Malvo may have been motivated by anti-American sentiments in the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks. Both were known to speak sympathetically about the men who hijacked jetliners over Washington, New York and Pennsylvania, the sources said. This from Fox News this morning.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 09:23 am | | Hi, David Radka:
I don't need to falsely accuse you of being paranoid. You display it for all to see here.
Chris |
Author: Garry Ross
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 09:41 am | | Is it just my imagination or is virtually everything being blamed on the Bin Laden gang? If someone broke wind really loudly in a residential area I suspect the finger pointing would start.
Propaganda is always a dangerous thing but if they can keep the people scared enough the coffers for arms will no doubt increase...or maybe I'm too cynical?
Just waiting for the press conference about the 2 arrests - live on Sky news
take care
Garry |
Author: Vila
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 09:49 am | | Ally,
I doubt that they are even that. They are simply two nuts who picked the current arab terrorist fears to hide behind. A lot of people side with Radka and jump to the conclusion that any crime is terrorist-related nowadays. Osama's crowd would be falling over themselves to get a statement on CNN if they were connected in any way to the DC sniper(s). Terrorists need the public to know what they are doing, just as the nature of terrorism. If we common folk don't know that they've done something, how can we fear them?
I'll be the first to admit that I find Radka annoying, but if he *is* right he'll probably have a stroke, or at least need clean underwear, from the sheer joy of being able to say "I told you so..." to all of us. But that isn't important right now. The only thing that matters is catching the killer(s) so we can get back to the serious business of fitting Osama & Saddam with thermonuclear suppositories- Or whatever choice that George's daddy tells him to make. And once the world deals with those two, there'll be some other threat drummed up in order to promote George Sr's. World Government plan.
Oh, as for kicking the NRA, don't bother. They haven't been serious about anything but making cash from members for the last 2 decades. They can't afford to be successful in stopping the American "disarm the victims and make the world safe for gangsters" movement, or they'd risk killing off their cash cow. The present NRA is little different than Jim Baker's PTL was during his tenure- Money for nothing.
As always, I express only my personal opinion. Everyone should form their own, not listen to me.
Vila |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 09:58 am | | The Sniper Next Door
By PATRICIA CORNWELL
New York Times, October 18, 2002
GREENWICH, Conn. One of the many threadbare jokes I used to hear, going back to my earliest days of running around with cops, was that a shooting victim "died of lead poisoning." I used to roll my eyes at the stupid joke. But I'm not now. For the first time in my life, I realize it is possible for a people to be poisoned by a single round. One shot, two shots, eleven shots fired by someone with an AK-47 or some other high-powered rifle with a scope rips the life from another of our neighbors and sends the rest of us indoors.
We don't want to buy gas. We don't want our children going to school. We don't want to shop. We don't want to drive to work. We may deliberate for hours whether we go to the grocery store or pharmacy. These days, we cringe beneath the shadow and roar of every low-flying passenger plane. We worry about opening our mail. At the office, we demand X-ray scanners and other high-tech devices that might detect explosives or anthrax. We decide not to buy that new house or car. Really, we rationalize, we don't need anything right now. New clothes can wait. A dinner out at our favorite restaurant isn't a necessity. In fact, let's not go anywhere. Forget vacation plans or conventions. Forget any activity that might involve travel or expense.
Terrorism. Lead poisoning. We watch the stock market implode. Fear creates fear, and the more we fear, the more we create fear until the day will come and it most certainly will when we won't need anyone to ruin our lives. We will become perfectly capable of ruining them ourselves.
I just returned from Baton Rouge, La., where there is a serial killer on the loose, a murderer more cunning and brazen than most. Although he uses his hands and a blade while the sniper's weapon is a rifle from afar, the two killers share several traits.
Both target people who are going about their daily routines and are in no way making themselves vulnerable. Both killers manage to blend with their surroundings well enough to move about undetected, perhaps without arousing even the slightest glint of suspicion as they, too, go about their normal activities. These killers probably have neighbors, jobs, hobbies, habits, relatives perhaps even spouses and children.
These murderers probably look perfectly normal. They may be attractive and above average in intelligence. Someone reading this article could very well have met one of these killers and found him polite, helpful, charming or, if nothing else, forgettable. Someone reading this article may know one of the killers and refuse to make the connection for the simple reason that we believe only in monsters.
We call the sniper a coldblooded monster. We call the Baton Rouge serial killer a monster. We fear monsters, not ordinary people. We read about monsters in novels and watch them in movies. We are confident that we will be able to peer out the window and recognize a monster immediately.
As a perennial student of crime, I am here to tell you that there is no such thing as a monster. Neither the sniper nor the Baton Rouge serial killer is coldblooded. These killers are human beings, as warmblooded as the rest of us. It is unlikely they bear any resemblance to Frankenstein's creation.
Walter Sickert, better known as Jack the Ripper, was strikingly handsome and charming. Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer were good looking and gifted at manipulating others, including the police. Intelligent people got crushes on them. Equally nonthreatening was David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam killer. He looked like a nobody the guy you might stand next to on the subway, the one working around the corner in the deli or sitting on a bench eating a sandwich.
Yet these men had invisible and aberrant thoughts and fantasies, and were constantly processing their weird symbols and hatred in ways normal people will never fully comprehend.
Our reaction to the Washington-area sniper is normal and understandable, and I have yielded to it myself from time to time. (Yes, I have changed or canceled travel plans. Yes, I have thought twice about going out.) But I have come to a conclusion about our fear and what we must do about it, and in part, this revelation entered my life just the other day.
The revelation's name is Lynne Marino. She lives in Baton Rouge and is the mother of Pam Kinamore, a beautiful, kind-hearted and talented 44-year-old woman who was abducted from her bedroom on July 12 after she had gotten out of the bathtub in her upscale suburban home. As was true of at least two of the Baton Rouge serial killer's earlier victims, Pam had been stalked. She had worked late in her antique store, and was probably followed as she drove home around 10 p.m., stopping on the way to buy a Diet Coke at a Jack in the Box drive-through.
Her killer must have known that Pam's 12-year-old son and her husband weren't home. Lights in different rooms blinked on as Pam headed back to the master bedroom, then her killer walked through an unlocked door and accosted her. Her decomposed body was found weeks later, some 30 miles away under what is called the Whisky Bay Bridge, a remote area where one might suppose that the killer assumed her body would never be found, at least not in time to glean any meaningful evidence from it.
I sat with Lynne Marino on a bright fall day in the neighborhood where her daughter had been snatched and driven off to have her throat slashed out in the middle of a Louisiana nowhere. I asked her what she could tell the rest of us. We live in a world of terrorist cells, or serial killers, of spree snipers, and as hard as we try, we can't seem to catch them. What can we do?
"Get involved," she answered. "People should notice a strange car or truck or person in their neighborhood. People need to be neighbors again and care for each other. You can't hole up in a house and not get dressed and not go out."
And if she lived in the Washington area right now? "The way my adrenaline's pumping, I'd go out in my car looking for him," she replied.
Patricia Cornwell is author of the forthcoming, "Portrait of a Killer: Jack the Ripper, Case Closed." |
Author: Garry Ross
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 09:59 am | | Hello all,
It would appear that John Williams is an ex US soldier and the other person is his stepson - 'a citizen of Jamaica' so if they are the snipers I think it rules out the Bin Laden thing again.
take care
Garry
still waiting for the police news conference |
Author: David Radka
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 10:33 am | | I wouldn't jump to conclusions on this matter. It will likely take a some time before we know all the details concerning motivation. Perhaps we'll need to wait for a book--several people (yawn) present I'm sure would be quite capable of penning it for the right price. I do feel that when full information does become available we'll find:
1. Mr. Mohammed is an Islamic person who has a long record of boasting his sympathies with al Qaeda.
2. He knows some al Qaeda types, but probably isn't a formal cell member, and didn't himself train in Afghanistan.
3. He was encouraged by others to go ahead and find a way to take Islamic issues into his own hands, considering the damage done to al Qaeda by US bombings.
4. He figured he'd put his $10 million blood money to work in favor of al Qaeda once he'd gotten it. He'd be able to use it to train people in Jamaica or elsewhere in the Caribbean to carry out terrorist attacks on the US mainland.
5. Mr. Mohammed is an al Qaeda wannabe, and Mr. Malvo a wannabe wannabe who became reluctant.
Well, that's the basic logical framework as I see it. I feel I should be accorded credit for the essential logical solution to this case, which I offered honorably and first, in the face of the laughing derision of many above.
David |
Author: Kevin Braun
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 11:00 am | | | MSNBC has reported that a rifle was found in the trunk of the suspects' car. The rifle was a Bushmaster outfitted with a scope. The Bushmaster fires a .223 round. To be the first on your block to own one see Bushmaster. |
Author: David Radka
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 11:37 am | | Greetings to all my British friends. I do not mean to insult anyone.
Respectfully,
David |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 12:46 pm | | David,
No insult taken on my part.
I live in a land where the gun laws are strict.
They arent handed over to any wacko who has an intent to kill.
A nation that includes the right to bare arms in their constitution cannot complain when the right is abused by such cowardly acts.
What do those that stand by such laws expect ??
That everyone abides by them ??
They should take their toys off them if they cant play nicely.
Every man jack of them. But they wont....and it will happen again and again and again.
Monty |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 01:04 pm | | Accepted David,
I never thought that was what you intended, I do think there could be quite a bit of truth in your suspicions of the sniper, time will tell, somebody came up with the anthrax post immediately after the Twin Towers Tragedy.
Was that Al Queda, or Al Queda inspired?
Rick |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 01:08 pm | | Hi, all:
As in the Berkowitz case, a routine traffic stop partly led to apprehension of the suspects in the Beltway sniper case. A source said the U.S. Marshals Service was able to connect suspect John Allen Muhammad with the car and license plate through information filed by officers from an October 8 traffic stop in Baltimore, Maryland. Muhammad was sleeping in his car at the time, which was six days after the spate of shootings began in Montgomery County. The officers were concerned that his driver's license was from Washington state and the vehicle tag was from New Jersey.
I have been afraid for some days that the sniper might start operating in the Baltimore metropolitan area, which is but 50 miles northeast of Washington, D.C. The fact that the sniper struck 90 miles south of D.C. in Ashland, Virginia, last Saturday and then once more in Montgomery County in the Aspen Hill area on Tuesday morning, might imply that if he had not been apprehended, he might have next struck next somewhere north of Washington. As it was, the two suspects were apprehended at a rest stop on Interstate Route 70 about 10 miles northwest of Frederick, or some 65 miles northwest of D.C.
All the best
Chris |
Author: judith stock
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 01:41 pm | | Dear David,
YUP, you said it first. OK, now what? I believe that what you said was that this would be an al Qaeda thing, connected to the Bin Laden Road Show. It's obvious it's NOT; these two travelling nut cases thought they could get off by killing people, THEN get away by extorting money. They forgot that, eventually, they would have to sleep! DOH!! Does it really matter, except to you, that you mentioned al Qaeda first? For the sake of pure accuracy, I think I was the one who first said that it might be American militia types.. and this guy qualifies as that, certainly. WHO CARES??? I was also first to accuse Victoria in lifts and a false mustache..so what? NOTHING is as important as the capture and conviction of these whackos....NOTHING. It does not matter a hairy rat's a** who said it first. And, frankly, I don't think the jury will care, either.
David, we are NOT out to get you, but you do manage to bring a lot of this on yourself.
J |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 02:04 pm | | Hi, Judy:
I agree with you that these guys are basically criminal losers, as shown by their probable implication in the robbery and double shooting at the liquor store in Montgomery, Alabama, on September 21.
Chris |
Author: Dan Norder
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 02:32 pm | | It's sad, really.
First we've got Cornwell trying to use the sniper as advertising for her ripper book. Above some were claiming that people were trying to profit off the killings, but this is the first incident I've seen that clearly goes from simple news-gathering straight to crass commercialization.
The column was so disjointed and odd-sounding that I thought it must have been a satirical piece written to make fun of her and posted here as an inside joke about the first chapter of her book. But a simple Internet search shows it's the real deal. And this person who can barely string two thoughts together is a bestselling author?!?! The mind reels.
Talk about a truly pathetic display of self-promotion via incoherent and illogical ramblings.
And, speaking of... nah, no point in even disputing David's latest rants, really. The facts will come out soon enough.
Dan |
Author: judith stock
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 03:06 pm | | Dear Dan,
I was going to comment on Cornwell's rubbish, too, but you have said it far better than I could have! Can you believe it? She is talking about fear, and shamelessly promotes her book! Guess we all know how truly smart she is, right?
And, you are also right..I never should have engaged David in debate over who said what first; shame on me! What a waste of finger muscles.
CG, I thank you for the support, but you STILL haven't agreed to write the chapter on the Doody/Sooty/Florrie theory....
It's a great day, guys; the stinkers have been caught, Stephen can now go out and mow his lawn, we might get some rain, and I'm going OUT for dinner tonight and don't have to cook!!! Let's all celebrate by being nice to each other for a nanosecond, OK?
Cheers,
J |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 03:09 pm | | Monty,
The Hallowed Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution gives all Americans the right to keep and bear arms. At least that is what gun supporters want you to believe. The Second Amendment actually only calls for a well regulated State Militia. Which actually makes the law archaic. When the U.S. became its own country the political state of the world was very different from what it is today. As a fledgling country, the founding fathers knew we would have to protect ourselves from other countries. After the Declaration of Independence was signed, it would only be 17 years until Napoleon would start rampaging across Europe.
A large standing military was not possible nor was it feasible, therefore; a clause was inserted into the Constitution calling for the need for State Militias to help meet the need for military protection. As for Napoleon, he would later be the reason behind Thomas Jefferson purchasing the Louisiana Territory from France. But that is another lesson in âBehind the scenes of U.S. History."
Moving ahead now to the 20th Century, we find most Americans clinging to this archaic law. Most Americans believe it is their God given right to own anything fired from the shoulder, up to and including M-60 machine guns and Stinger Missile Systems. In 1985, the Louisiana State Supreme Court ruled that the car is an extension of the home. Therefore; it is perfectly legal to have a gun or any weapon hidden anywhere in the vehicle to include upon your body. One would just have to remove the weapon before exiting the vehicle or they would be in violation of possessing a concealed weapon. Because of this La. Supreme Court Ruling, law enforcement officers, over time, changed their traffic stop tactics. A person once stopped had to exit the vehicle and approach the officer, while the officer stayed in the vehicle. If a known firearm or dangerous felon was in the vehicle then the officer would conduct what is called a High Risk or Felony Stop. This involves three police units with guns drawn directing the person or person(s) to exit the vehicle and walk backward to them. They are then handcuffed and searched.
In 1990, a landmark 10 year study was concluded by the FBI. The subject of the study concerned law enforcement officers shot and killed in the line of duty. 77% of all law enforcement officers shot in the line of duty were those in the Southern States where the gun control laws were extremely lax. Leading the way was Louisiana with 82% of the 77. The reason given by the FBI was the 1985 Louisiana State Supreme Court Ruling.
In 1996, I was still a detective in New Orleans when the State of Louisiana passed its concealed weapon law. This law now gave all residents of Louisiana the right to carry a weapon on their body concealed from plain view. Of course the Louisiana Legislature made it a crime to carry the weapon in certain places, but it still gave Louisianians the sweeping right to walk around in public with a concealed weapon. The contention among Louisiana Law Enforcement was that every traffic stop would be treated as felony stop. The legislature then eased the minds of law enforcement by making it a felony to not inform a law enforcement officer that you were carrying a concealed weapon and made it mandatory that your driverâs license reflect you were a concealed weapon carrier. That same year the Legislature passed the infamous shoot the car-jacker law. It has always been a fundamental right in the U.S. that a person has the right to self defense when his or her life is threatened or the life of another is threatened. The protection of property has never included in this right until the Louisiana Shoot the Car-Jacker Law.
As a police officer I was shot at three times, I have stared down the barrel of a 12. gauge shotgun at point blank range, I have had eight individuals draw down on me, I have had one person try to strip the gun off my side, I have seen a man hold his infant child hostage by placing a Glock .40 to the childâs head, and I have taken so many damn guns off of known convicted felons that I lost count. I have cleared leather a hlf dozen times and I have only shot once.
Does the U.S. need strict gun control laws? From my experience,yes. In fact, I have to say that the Second Amendment needs to be repealed. But that would never happen. One law I would settle for is that all gun owners be registered. All firearms and firearm replacement parts sold be fingerprinted. All gun owners should have to go through the same qualification course that law enforcement officers go through, and should they ever make the decision to shoot, they should be held to the same level of accountability that law enforcement officers are held. Interestingly enough, the NRA is against all of the above proposals. Lock and load.
Peace,
Scott |
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