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Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Suspects: General Discussion : My three most favoured suspects: Archive through 06 January 2002
Author: Harry Mann Friday, 19 January 2001 - 05:02 am | |
My nomination for the three most likely suspects,are,in order: (1) George Hutchinson. (2) Francis Tumblety. (3) Joseph Barnett. This is a personnel opinion arrived at after reading the many postings on these boards,as well as numerous books on the subject. Perhaps other posters may care to name their three most favoured suspects,as I know there will be many who will disagree with my list. H.Mann.
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Author: Simon Owen Friday, 19 January 2001 - 05:44 pm | |
My choice for suspects would be : (i)The Royal Conspiracy Theory ie Sir William Gull , Lord Randolph Churchill and others. Obviously its not the most likely theory but its my favourite one. (ii)Montague John Druitt , although that seems unlikely too. (iii)Joseph Barnett. If I was allowed a fourth choice then I would say George Chapman. Simon
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Author: Diana Friday, 19 January 2001 - 06:34 pm | |
1. Arbie LaBruckman 2. Joseph Barnett 3?
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Author: Warwick Parminter Friday, 19 January 2001 - 07:27 pm | |
Barnett Kelly, possibly Bury, ditto Davidoz!! I reckon you would choose the GOD PAN
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Author: Warwick Parminter Friday, 19 January 2001 - 07:35 pm | |
Whoops sorry folks, I've enticed him over here!!! another misdemeanor Rick.
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Author: Rotter Friday, 19 January 2001 - 08:31 pm | |
My top suspect? Some unknown fellow (I guess I'll commit myself enough to say that it was a man) who is known today-if at all-as just a name in a police file somewhere. If you put a gun to my head I would say the "Polish Jew" story in some form has the most promise, although it is no way completely understood yet. (Actually if you put a gun to my head I would probably break down weeping, but let's pretend)
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Author: David M. Radka Friday, 19 January 2001 - 10:10 pm | |
1. The way most people make some sense of the case, the best suspect is unquestionably Severin Klosowski. A convicted multiple murderer of women who lived virtually across the street from most of the crimes, known to have medical skill, his visit to the U.S. corresponds to a similar murder there, on and on and on. I've read Mr. Gordon's upcoming book, where he puts the whole mountain of evidence together, and it is a mighty impressive case indeed. 2. Next best, TWMPMSSOTC, is Aaron Kosminski. A barber/hairdresser, therefore likely with limited medical skill. He was there, hated women, had a severe psychiatric problem, was identified by a witness, and so on. Problem: We don't know enough details about his identification and why he was suspected by Anderson. 3. Third best is in my view a tie, TWMPMSSOTC, among Tumblety, and D'Onston. Both are verified police suspects. Both had some medical skill or experience. Tumblety had a uterus collection, and the Ripper specifically targeted that organ. Problems: Homosexuality, too tall, too old. D'Onston was a pagan black magician, which are known to make candles out of uteri and to mutilate for ceremonial purposes. Problem: The people who principally suspected him are rather unreliable women, known to repeat gossip, and he was too old. The sleeper is Kaminsky/Cohen. Although Mr. Fido's wheel of causality spins at blurring speed, Mr. Fido is a very smart man. Most people who post these boards, it seems to me, just don't have a clue as to how far out candidates like Gull and company, Barnett, and Hutchinson are. They are very unlikely to have been the murderer. TWMPMSSOTC is not the way I do, however, so please don't think I am necessarily working along the above lines. David
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Author: Rotter Friday, 19 January 2001 - 10:19 pm | |
David, where is Druitt TWMPMSSOTC, and TWDRMSSOFC (the way David Radka makes some sense of the case)?
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Author: JosephOz Friday, 19 January 2001 - 10:21 pm | |
AYTBSANOTWS? DYASTTMOMOPYI? ITHYCFALOC?
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Author: Simon Owen Saturday, 20 January 2001 - 02:17 pm | |
Now we have people speaking Welsh on the boards !
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Author: David M. Radka Saturday, 20 January 2001 - 05:50 pm | |
TWMPMSSOTC, Druitt seems an intriguing choice. He died at the right time for the murders to stop, he was about the right age, build, and description, he apparently didn't like women (being unmarried), he had an office within walking distance of the crime scenes, and his family apparently thought him capable of the crimes. As for as I'm concerned, these points add up to just about nothing, period. There is no direct link anywhere, even a thin one, to any murder scene; he had no record of violence or strange behavior, and apparently took his own life in despondence at his mother's problems and having recently been fired--something that can happen to anybody. This doesn't mean that I'm writing him off, it just means that I don't see how any of the generally accepted justifications for his candidacy work. As a matter of fact I have strong opinions on Druitt for reasons other than the generally held ones, and I do write about him. Whether it is thumbs up or thumbs down I can't say now, but I do have my opinions. David
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Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Wednesday, 02 January 2002 - 12:13 pm | |
Hello David, Relax Mr Radka...time heals all. And here we are in the year of Our Lord 2002. We made it...did you? And now our Three Rascals may include "A.R"? Rosey:-)
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Author: James Terence Kearney Wednesday, 02 January 2002 - 01:45 pm | |
Here is my top suspects James Kelly John Druitt Once again I'm sticking to just these two. The only real problem with Druit theory is he don't fit a serial killer profile as do Kelly. The only real clue on Kelly is he killed his wife by cutting her throat. Also and I 'm not trying to be dramatic here it seems that the throat cut were quick kills and they reached the spinal cord. This kind of technique is only used in special training techniques. Knife fighters would understand this also and the military. It's great the site is back up again happy new year to all.
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Author: Ivor Edwards Wednesday, 02 January 2002 - 02:51 pm | |
My top three suspects are: Robert Donston Stephenson, Tau-Tria-Delta, Dr. Roslyn D'Onston.
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Author: Christopher T George Wednesday, 02 January 2002 - 03:56 pm | |
Hi, Ivor: But that's seven or eight people right there! From what I know of Robert D'Onston Stephenson aka Roslyn D'Onston, he was probably the type of man who greeted himself good morning when he sat down to his morning kippers and eggs. Chris
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Author: Ivor Edwards Wednesday, 02 January 2002 - 07:18 pm | |
Hi Chris,You could well be right there.I bet he scared the kippers so much that they jumped off the plate when they saw the knife in his hand! A man of many names and many faces. One name he did use which was just as good as Jack the Ripper was Sudden Death.That name was indeed appropriate under the circumstances.
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Author: Jeff Bloomfield Wednesday, 02 January 2002 - 09:41 pm | |
My top choices: Roslyn D'Onston Stephenson Montague John Druitt Severin Klosowski (a.k.a. George Chapman) and one other, whose last name was possibly Sowery. Jeff
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Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 06:03 am | |
My three as follows: A Druid...A Lunatic...An "Omen". What do they have in common...blood n' moonlight. Rosey :-))
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Author: Monty Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 07:51 am | |
1) Butcher 2) Baker 3) Candlestick maker OR 4) Chartered Accountant. Monty
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Author: graziano Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 10:05 am | |
It's difficult for me because they were more than three and they used to change name as they changed their skirt and trouser (and hat). If I have to choose one for each of them (for some of them) I would say Leopold, Benjamin, Yankev, Will, Leon and so on (for respect I will omit the ladies). Some were Ukhrainians, others Russians, Polish or even Dutch and Belgians. At least that's where they came from. But they also had some common points: they were all young (25/35), they all spoke yiddish (and were able to write it), they all had their barmitzva but none of them used to celebrate hanukkah. And none of them was a lunatic. Moreover they all listened carefully to what their older master and friend Piotr had to say. Bye. Graziano.
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Author: graziano Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 10:49 am | |
Ivor, Chris, why do you persist again and again in trying misleading young boarders ? Don't you want to share the truth ? If this is the game please tell me. I want to play too. But let me first train with it: my favourite suspect is Rose Lynn Don....sorry my favourite suspect is Rosy Dean Lon....sorry once again, my favourite suspect is Roselyn Steph....sh..! last time, I promise, my favourite suspect is Dos..no!! Rose Don..no!no!no!no! Sorry guys, I must give up, I can't, really. What about changing the name,..,let's say...Rosey Donney. I know, I know, she was a woman. But she lived in 1891 at 38 Dorset street, she wore a flannel red skirt and used to sing "The little whistling bird of the other side of the street" every sunday morning (quite early moreover). Thus more credible in any case than the guy you chose. Bye. Graziano.
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Author: Christopher T George Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 11:13 am | |
Hi, Graziano: Are you serious in your statement to Ivor and myself when you say, "why do you persist again and again in. . . misleading young boarders"? I note that the rest of your post appears to be in fun so I don't know whether to take your opening statement as serious or a joke. Graziano, if you are serious in your apparent accusation that Ivor and I are misleading "young boarders"--presumably by which you mean newcomers to these boards--could you please kindly explain to us how we are misleading them. You have, it seems to me, made a serious accusation and you need to back up the charge. Again, I am sorry if I am misunderstanding you, but only you can clarify what you said in your post. I do not believe it has ever been my intention, nor I believe Ivor's, to mislead. Rather, we are here to inform and enlighten. Perhaps you do not know enough about Ivor's suspect, Robert Donston Stephenson, but he is known to have used a number of different names and pen names, so we were only being factual in our recent posts on this board. Thanks in advance for your clarification, Graziano. Best regards Chris George
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Author: R.J.P. Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 11:31 am | |
Favorite suspect: Tumblety or Tumblety's assistant Dishonorable mention: Druitt Most interesting suspect: (tie) D'Onston & Ostrog Least favorite: George Chapman. Sorry about this last one, but I don't see Chapman being much better than Cream or Deeming or any of the 'latter day' criminals that were offered up as Ripper suspects. If he can't be placed in New York in time for the Brown murder, Abberline's best argument falls through and we are left with a slow poisoner many years after the Whitechapel crimes. It's interesting to note, however, that in making his suggestion Abberline took the "American Doctor" theory very seriously, and thought that Chapman's motive was organ theft. I believe this is precisely why Littlechild suspected Tumblety. Cheers, RP
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Author: Tom Wescott Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 11:40 am | |
Chris, It's been my past experience with Graziano that he has a strange sense of humor. He'll post something that seems like an insult but it's actually a joke to him. So, I imagine he was only joking. David, What do you mean when you say Druitt apparently didn't like women because he wasn't married? I'm 28, never married, and certainly not batting for the other team. To all, I do not have 3 favored suspects, although I must reluctantly admit that D'Onston continues to look better and better. Michael Conlon's Frenchy also needs more looking into. Yours truly, Tom Wescott
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Author: graziano Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 11:59 am | |
"Inform and Enlighten". That's what I understood Chris. But for playing the "Holy Trinity" you need to be three. That's the reason I would like to join in. Yes, you misanderstood me. The "misleading accusation" or my "opening statement" was not a serious one. All the rest of the post was. Forgive me.....Father, Sine labe concepto, puro et immaculato, I just thought that with the new year it should have been time to go through new roads. The old are so arid and boring. My fault, my sin, may I be forever damned for having, even for only one moment, doubted of the Word. Accept my apologize. I bow. In only one Jack I will believe. In yours (and Ivor's). Your devoted.
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Author: Christopher T George Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 12:10 pm | |
Hi, Graziano: I accept your gracious apology and sorry we had a misunderstanding. Seriously now, here are my top three suspects: 1) Roslyn D'Onston 2) Francis Tumblety 3) An unknown sailor, possibly John Anderson To explain the suspect John Anderson, I am reposting here information I put on another board some months back: The one suspect that I can think of who matches the description of the man with the carrotty mustache seen with Mary Jane Kelly is the less well-known suspect John Anderson, a sailor who was the subject of an article by Nick Connell in Ripperana 25, July 1998. I personally find this sailor an intriguing suspect and plan to do some more work on him. Connell reprints the text of an article that appeared in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper on October 18, 1896 in which Anderson is said to have confessed to the murders on his deathbed in Chile, South America, in April 1895. The story was told to Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper by James Brame, a shipmate of Anderson's aboard the sailor's last ship, the barque Annie Speer. Brame said that Anderson was "about thirty-eight years old, and was a fine, well-set up man with a bearing almost military. In complexion he was fair, his hair being red; he wore a moustache and a slight beard, and his face was much pitted with the smallpox." This description thus vaguely matches the man with Mary Jane Kelly seen walking up the passageway to 13 Miller's Court by Mary Ann Cox at a quarter to twelve on the night of the murder and described by Cox as being "A short, stout man, shabbily dressed. He had on a longish coat, very shabby, and carried a pot of ale in his hand. . . . [He wore a] round hard billycock. . . He had a blotchy face, and full carrotty moustache." (Kelly inquest testimony as reported in The Daily Telegraph, November 13, 1888.) Again, according to Brame in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, "Anderson, who had obtained a knowledge of surgery in the United States Navy, through acting as a hospital assistant, had been robbed and almost ruined by a low woman in London. He brooded on this, and at length resolved to be revenged as far as he could on the whole class. He had shipped in the weekly boats running between Rotterdam and London, but when he determined to carry out his vengeance he left these, and having a little money took lodgings at a quiet farm-like house near Bromley, where he passed as a ship's watchman, engaged at night work in the docks. He would leave his lodgings in the evening, and make his way to the Whitechapel district where he committed the terrible deeds as he found opportunity. The knife he used was similar to that used by slaughtermen. He had found a confederate in his awful work, and it was this fact that enabled him to evade capture. The confederate would wait at a spot appointed with a clean smock, which Anderson at once drew over his blood-stained garments, so avoiding any suspicious appearance. It is significant, if the story be true, that Anderson described himself as terribly frightened after each deed was committee, but immediately before the murders as being filled with an insane fury that made him careless of everything. Two days before his death Anderson was delirious, and kept screaming out and jumping up in bed, with cries of 'There's another! How she bleeds!'" After his death, John Anderson was buried in the necropolis in Iquique, Chile. There is more to the story but those are the essentials. Best regards Chris George
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Author: Kevin Braun Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 12:19 pm | |
1) Unknown: not included in Casebook's "Suspects" 2) Tumblety 3) Arbie La Bruckman Just my opinion, in the last ten years at one time or another I have favored all of the major suspects (except Jill). Take care, Kevin
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Author: Jesse Flowers Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 02:59 pm | |
Graziano- You are on the right track in looking for the involvement of more than one person in these crimes; a careful study of the evidence suggests no less. However you have been taken in by the deception plan of the real killers; those you accuse are precisely those whom the murderers tried so hard to throw blame upon. Your fellow heretic and conspiracy theorist AAA88
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Author: Mark List Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 04:20 pm | |
1) Me 2) Myself 3) and Irene HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! alright, My three most favored suspect who weren't the Ripper: 3) Prince Eddy- to physical weak 2) Gull- to old + stroke 1) Lewis Carroll - just doesn't work with me, to far-fetched My three most Favored suspect who probably didn't do it but the best to discuss: 3) M. John Druitt 2) Joe Barnett 1) James Maybrick My three most favored suspects who did the killing: 3) jack the ripper 2) white chapel killer 1) autumn horror
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Author: Rosemary O'Ryan Thursday, 03 January 2002 - 07:02 pm | |
Dear Graziano, A period of absence from the confessional, my son? "This little whistling bird on the other side of the street", was, in fact, sung by Rosey D'Onston. You are correct about the red flannel dress though... eight out of ten for observation! Duet Mon Drouit, sweety. Rosey :-)
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Author: Philip C. Dowe Friday, 04 January 2002 - 03:48 am | |
Here goes, 1) The big unknown suspect who will never be known. 2) Bury 3) George Hutchinson and a good 4) Joesph Barnett. Philip PS Rosyln Who?????????
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Author: Arfa Kidney Friday, 04 January 2002 - 08:08 am | |
As I believe the deaths of these prostitutes where all suicides,here's my top three: 1.Mary Kelly 2.Catherine Eddowes 4.Elizabeth Stride Right,that's that one solved! Regards, Mick
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Author: graziano Friday, 04 January 2002 - 10:15 am | |
Well Jesse, if you are right they would have been even more intelligent and machiavelic than what I thought. Your theory could be interesting however. Worth keeping in mind. The problem I have with such a possibility is the motive for not killing in the whole october when it would have been the best atmosphere to go on. Policemen on the streets (plain clothes or not) had already been added before the 30st of september. Police was not the problem. The murders stopped as the insurging of the "exploited" reached a climax. With the sighting of the "rich Mr Astrakhan" (remember that Mr Astrakhan stood three minutes at the entrance of Miller's Court) by Hutchinson it seems to me quite clear what the final aim of all that was. Bye. Graziano.
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Author: James Terence Kearney Friday, 04 January 2002 - 05:00 pm | |
It is possible that the Ripper had connections with the local crime gangs protection rackets pimps etc any comments?
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Author: Jesse Flowers Friday, 04 January 2002 - 05:20 pm | |
Graziano- If I understand the meaning of your previous post correctly, it would be well to remember that not all the followers of Prince Pyotr got along and played nicely together. Personalities clashed and tactics were hotly debated. Internecine struggle was rife. Splinter groups formed, dissolved and re-formed. Faction informed on faction. Grudges accumulated. Scores were settled. An item that may interest you appeared in the Manitoba Daily Free Press of March 8, 1890. A high official of the Russian government (can't recall the name and I don't have the article to hand right now- Prince something-or-other) received a package from members of Narodnya Volya (People's Will), a Russian revolutionary organization. The box contained a woman's severed head and was accompanied by a note that read, "We will outdo Jack the Ripper." A clumsy effort, to be sure, but obviously the lesson in the uses of terror and the exploitation of the media had hit home; the fact that the incident was reported as far away as Canada is telling. A coincidence? Or had the Russians learned (so to speak) at the feet of the master? AAA88
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Author: graziano Saturday, 05 January 2002 - 05:54 am | |
Hello Jesse, for Piotr I intended Peter Kropotkin. For the rest I think we are following the same track, even if our interpretation can be somewhat different. But what Jack showed without any doubt was the inadequacy of the police in protecting the populace, the fearless arrogance of the wealthy gents (Mr Astrakhan) and his scare of the anger of the people. All the people I mentioned (because I respect "innocent till proven guilty" I do not give other things than their first name) changed name because of the Okhrana. I think Narodnya Volya could have been considered in practice already dead in 1888. Absolutely not the very powerful Okhrana. Who was in both of them ? The newspapaper report you mention is powerful enough. Bye. Graziano.
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Author: Jeff Bloomfield Saturday, 05 January 2002 - 11:17 am | |
It is interesting (if fruitless) to note that in 1893 Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a short story about Sherlock Holmes for the new series of tales appearing in the Strand Magazine. It was called The Adventure of the Cardboard Box. In it a woman receives a box in the mail that contains two severed ears). It turns out that the ears are those of two murder victims, and the recipient of the package was the wrong recipient (if you want full details read the story). Apparently Conan Doyle based this story on something that had once happened to a famous female novelist (believed by scholars to be Harriet Beecher Stowe). There was some negative discussion of the story, so that when the second collection of Sherlock Holmes tales were published as THE MEMOIRS OF SHERLOCK HOLMES, "The Adventure of the Cardboard Box" was not included. It finally was republished in a subsequent collection of short stories called HIS LAST BOW in 1914. Jeff
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Author: graziano Saturday, 05 January 2002 - 11:38 am | |
Jesse, your message saying that I misunderstood the aim of the whole plot is intriguing me a lot. But if the aim was to let the east european anarchists be accused, why they stopped short of doing just that ? After all I suspect the police would have been very happy to find Jack among them. At least to find some evidence against at least one of them. Now, I guess that it is easier to find evidence against an innocent who has to be accused than against the one who is guilty. Am I wrong there ? Thanks. Graziano.
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Author: John Patrick Saturday, 05 January 2002 - 05:57 pm | |
Hello Everyone, My colleagues and I have just finished a project that we believe has helped us to solve some of the critical aspects of the Jack the Ripper murder case. While we all share an interest in criminal psychology, our work has usually involved designing software application programs for predictive purposes. For mental distraction and fun, we applied these techniques to the case of Jack the Ripper. Our goal was to find, from the list of all the known suspects, the person or persons, who best fit the physical and psychological profile we had designed. Given our obvious time constraints, we analyzed as much information as we could including all the letters sent to the police and news media. The dates of the murders were researched in depth to find what relationship, if any, these particular calendar days may have had to the killings. We applied various techniques and searches in an attempt to determine what letters Jack the Ripper may have written, and what the true meaning of those letters may have been. Unfortunately, what started as a fun, and sometimes competitive project, ended rather sadly when we reached our rather surprising conclusions. I will summarize briefly some of our findings. (1) Contrary to popular belief, we argue that Jack the Ripper did write many of the letters although they may not have been in his actual handwriting. (2) The letters are characterized by religious obsession. (3) The letter writer was influenced greatly by the Bible and the Book of Job in particular. (4) The concept of the Leviathan as it relates to the Cult of the Serpent appears to be the motivating psychological force behind the murders. Furthermore, it is hard to avoid Masonic implications. An important part of Masonry, is getting members to reach a higher reality. This is supposedly achieved by taking part in dramatic rituals where the initiate plays the part of a legendary, historical or mythological figure. This is how a person receives a Degree, by performing or observing the theatrical action taking place. Shakespeare's plays and the Bible are just two such examples of influential works. We believe all the murders were in fact "skits" being performed by those involved. It is hard not to be struck by the similarity of Mary Kelly's last moments and those of Desdemona in Shakespeare's Othello. The red handkerchief symbolizes deception and the object wrapped in oilcloth, by use of a strap, was mostly evidently a small sword. Again, we see the consistent theme of slaying the Serpent/Dragon/Leviathan with a sword by a man who may have been seen himself as a Ha-Satan, or one whose "job" it was to test those who 'would say anything but their prayers'. It is most probable that George Hutchinson was taking part in this particular ritual as well. After weighing all the evidence and considering all the eyewitness accounts, we believe the two strongest suspects in the case to be "Doctor" Thomas John Barnardo and James Kent. While there is considerable amount of evidence to suggest that many people played a part in the murders, only in the case of these two men, do we believe there is enough circumstantial evidence warranting their placement at the top of the suspects list. The model predicts that in time, Thomas Barnardo will be recognized as the man wearing the Astrakhan fur coat. The theory in general, is that Barnardo was assisted by young men, and perhaps young women as well, in everything from writing the letters, to in some cases, like that of James Kent, the actual murders themselves. In short, these "poor" "creatures" which he saved from the "ocean" of misery, as he himself described it, may have felt they owed him for saving them from an early death on the streets. One theory proposed is that some of the young men named in the case may have been one of the so-called "Barnardo's Boys". This theory leaves open the possibility that James Kent, David Cohen, George Hutchinson or Thomas Coram may have been known to Barnardo. This theory was given considerable weight when research on the name Thomas Coram turned up the following information: Captain Thomas Coram (1668-1751) "On his return to England he was appalled at the plight of young children in London, many of whom were often literally left to die on the streets.....Generations of London children owe a debt of gratitude to Thomas Coram, the great pioneer in the cause of child welfare, whose statue by Macmillan stands on the north side of Brunswick Square." Chillingly, almost these exact words can be said about Thomas Barnardo. We feel, quite sadly in fact, that the case against Barnardo is quite strong, from the physical descriptions which fit perfectly, all the way down to the last words of the "Dear Boss" letter. It has been said about Barnardo that his "vanity and thirst for prestige led him to use the title of "Doctor", although he had never completed his medical studies." Is this what Jack the Ripper meant when he wrote "They say I'm a doctor now ha.ha."? Sincerely, John
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Author: The Viper Sunday, 06 January 2002 - 07:28 am | |
Much of which suggests an over reliance on a technique called data matching – a very common one in computer software application programs. For instance, it would be useful to see a list of the letters that in the opinion of Mr. Patrick's team were written by the murderer. Could it be that these are predominantly the ones written in red ink/blood; that contain words like Boss, buckled, and 'ha ha', with spellings such as 'nise'; or which include direct references to ear-clipping or organ removal? If such features are heavily over represented in the list then what we're probably looking at is an efficient means of identifying copycat letters, rather than communications from the killer. All readers of the excellent JTR Letters From Hell by Evans and Skinner will be aware of the way in which the various letter writers borrowed from one another. The linking by name of Thomas Coram, the labourer who found a knife in Whitechapel Road the night after the 'double event', with the eighteenth century founder of the Foundling Hospital off the Gray's Inn Road is another example of data matching. I fail entirely to see how it can be said that, "this theory was given considerable weight" by such a simple coincidence of name. Regards, V.
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