|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2224
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 6:08 pm: | 
|
John, that's really fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting it.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 312
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 9:29 pm: |
|
John or Chris or Robert (or somebody)
A name popped up in the last installment that John gave about George Saint John Mildmay which impressed me a little: Percival Hambro, Esq. of
Milton Abbas, Dorset. He became George's father in law in 1898. I just wonder if Mr. Hambro had
any connection to Montague (whose Wimborne address puts him in Dorset too), but also with a fellow with a similar name: Cecil John Hambrough.
The latter was a young man, destined for an army career, who died in a "hunting accident" in 1893 at Ardlamont in Scotland. The resulting trial of Alfred John Monson for Cecil's murder resulted in one of Scotland's "Not Proven" verdicts.
Jeff |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 249
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 2:49 am: |
|
John
Another interesting link with George St John Mildmay - albeit a link forged a decade after the Whitechapel murders - is that his wife, "Grace Mary, eldest daughter of Percival Hambro, Esq., of Milton Abbas, Dorset", must have been closely related to Colonel Charles Joseph Theophilus Hambro, of Milton Abbey (1835-1891).
Hambro was the Conservative MP for South Dorset from 1886, and therefore one possible candidate for the unnamed West of England MP who was claiming in February 1891 that the murderer was the the son of a surgeon who had drowned himself.
Chris Phillips
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2225
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 7:50 am: |
|
Just thought I'd post a slightly odd coincidence. In the 1881 census is an Edward M Spooner, surgeon, MRCS and ISA, born Blandford, Dorset, and living at Blandford Forum. Of course, Edward Spooner was an (unconnected) man called to the Stride inquest.
Back to the St John Mildmays.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2226
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 1:43 pm: |
|
By the way, as an example of how things can suddenly turn up : today it was announced that a hoard of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's personal papers, which went missing 40 years ago, have been discovered at a legal firm. 80% of the material has never been published.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 466
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 4:33 pm: |
|
That is interesting. It raises hopes that personal papers of someone involved in the case might also turn up. I suppose with more and more Victorian era buildings coming down, the possibility increases.
If the Doyle papers went missing in the mid-1960's or so, I suppose it would be known if they had anything relevant to the case in them.
Andy S. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 194
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 9:54 pm: |
|
Hello Chris (times two) Robert, Jeff, Monty and Andy.
Thank you to the inimitable Chris Scott, who really knows how to tweak our lines, by just tossing the odd, interesting extract from the Census at us! And then watching us zoom off in all directions hunting down clues.Good find Chris.
Chris Phillips: Yes, Chris, I agree Colonel Charles Hambro might have been the mysterious and knowledgeable West of England M.P.,who felt JTR was the son of a surgeon drowned in the Thames.
I wonder if Hambro is the M.P. who died in 1891?
might this explain why his promising (anonymous) theory has not seen further light of day?
Jeff: The Hambro family from memory, were big-time. I think , one was Governor or Director of the Bank of England.
(Was there once, a Hambro's Bank?).And also, I think they moved in the same circles as Prince Albert Victor's "roue" father, the Prince of Wales. Cecil Hamborough, whom you speak of, might well have been from that family. Interesting the "shooting accident".
Robert Charles Linford displays an acute power of observation about things 'Druittical'.
And is "Monty" a Northerner? He displays a good and, often, much-needed ability to insert humour into our discussions.(I'm only guessing about the Northerner bit, please don't be offended if you're not). |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 5:28 am: |
|
Many thanks John:-)
Glad the 1871 data was of interest and of course it is always interesting to see what fellow posters make of it!
I am currently doing some more work on 1871 data and should have some more to post soon
All the best
Chris
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2229
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 8:43 am: |
|
Hi Chris
When you've done your 1871 research, could you sort out the tangled mess I've made of the 1881 census? Arundel seems to be at Magdalen College, Cambridge, but he seems to have dropped the "St John" and he's listed as born Denton instead of Torquay. There is also a G.A. St John Mildmay in the same household. Head of household is a barrister.
There is a George St John Mildmay, 25, law student as a visitor at the home of one Cicil Wray.
Walter seems to have disappeared into the Bermuda Triangle.
Robert |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 254
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 9:15 am: |
|
From Burke's Peerage (1949 edn), it looks as though most of these St John-Mildmays were siblings, children of the Rev. Charles Arundell St John-Mildmay and Hariet Louisa Neville-Grenville.
Among their children are listed:
Wyndham (1855-1934)
George (1856-1931)
Arundell Glastonbury (1859-1925)
Walter Hervey (1860-1929)
Wyndham and Walter evidently served in India/Afghanistan, which may explain absences from the census.
I think the following adds to what John posted about George:
"Major Somerset L.I., Staff Capt. 61st Bde. and S. Cmd., served in World War I as Major Labour Corps ... J.P. Somerset ..." his wife d. 20 Dec. 1920; he d.s.p. 19 April 1931.
Chris Phillips
|
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1067
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:35 am: |
|
Hi Robert
It might help - I am listing below all the St John Mildmays I found in 1881 census:
St John Mildmays
1881 Census
G A St John Mildmay aged 20 born Winchfield, Hants
Undergraduate at Magdalen College, Cambridge
Carew H St John Mildmay aged 18 born London
Student Scholar Lieutenant Militia at Hyde Hall, Sawbridgeworth, Hertfordshire
Charles Reagan St John Mildmay aged 20 born London
Lieutenant RA - Active list at Military Barracks, Sheerness, Kent
Carew Bingham St John Mildmay aged 11 born London
Pupil at Woolley School, Hursely, Hampshire
Alice F St John Mildmay aged 23 born East Indies
Officer's daughter - listed as great niece of Charles Trotter of 42 Porchester Terrace, London
Florence W St John Mildmay aged 19 born Heathfield, Hampshire
Listed as Grand daughter of Viscount Eversley of 114 Eaton Square, London
Constance St John Mildmay aged 22 born Hunton Bridge, Hertfordshire
Grand daughter of Viscount Eversley - address as entry above
George St John Mildmay aged 25 born Lapworth, Birmingham
Law student of 6 Robertson Terrace, Hastings, Sussex
Herbert A St John Mildmay aged 44 born At Sea
Lieut Colonel Retired of 4 Elizabeth Street, London
Edmund H St John Mildmay aged 44 born Wurtenburg (British Subject)
Equerry to HRH The Duke of Cambridge - living at 3 St George's Square, London
Aubrey N St John Mildmay aged 16 born Marston, York
Boarder at 18 Edgar Road, Winchester, Hampshire
the 1891 census confirms Torquay as the place of Birth of Arundel Mildamy. By the time of that census he is listed as Vicar of Hartley Wintney in Hampshire. (see below)
Hope this helps
Chris
 |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1068
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:40 am: |
|
Robert
I found the Arundel Mildmay, the student, you mentioned in the 1881 data born in Denton, Suffolk.
Having checked, there is no town called Denton in Suffolk, but there is a place of that name in Norfolk.
I am wondering if Denton is a transcription erro for Devon...
All the best
Chris
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2230
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 2:02 pm: |
|
Hi Two Chrises
Thanks very much for that info. Re Denton, I suppose Arundel must have been unsure where he was born, as John's post of 15th above mentions Denton in Norfolk.
Thanks again.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Inspector
Username: Severn
Post Number: 471
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 2:34 pm: |
|
Hi Folks,
Brilliant finds here Chris and Chris,wonder if any of the Cambridge lot were in that society that
JKStephen formed?
Best Natalie |
Chris Phillips
Inspector
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 261
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 7:54 am: |
|
Just to clarify the relationship between Col. C. J. T. Hambro the Dorset M.P., and Grace Hambro, the wife of George St John Mildmay who before his marriage was in the same chambers as Druitt:
According to Burke's Landed Gentry, 18th edn (1965), vol. 1 (Hambro), Grace was the M.P.'s niece. Her father, Percival Lewis Hambro, of Stapleton, Blandford (1836-1885), was Col. Hambro's younger brother (Col. Hambro had two daughters).
Chris Phillips
|
Sue Thomson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
|
Jeffrey - I am the great-granddaughter of John Comrie Thomson, who defended Alfred John Monson in his trial for the murder of Windsor Dudley Cecil Hambrough in Edinburgh in 1893. Hambrough was the son of Dudley A. Hambrough of Godshill, Isle of Wight, Hampshire, so was probably not related to the Hambros mentioned in other messages. If you are interested in the trial, I have a lot of information about it. A couple of pieces of trivia related to Conan Doyle: one of the witnesses for the prosecution was Dr. Joseph Bell, who had taught Conal Doyle at medical school in Edinburgh, and who was the prototype for Sherlock Holmes. Dr. Bell attended John Comrie Thomson just before he died in 1897, after being injured in a fall on a boat. I came across this website while doing a Google search for the Monson trial. Sue Comrie Thomson. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 878
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 1:16 am: |
|
The Wikipedia article "List of Proposed Jack the Ripper Suspects" has this entry for Druitt:
Montague John Druitt (August 15, 1857–December 1?, 1888). Having received a degree as a lawyer, he occasionally practiced his occupation while he was more permanently employed as a private school teacher from 1881 until November 21, 1888. He was also known as a sportsman and was an amateur cricket player. Under unknown circumstances, he last attended the school in Blackheath on November 19, 1888, and was officially dismissed two days later. His body was found floating in the River Thames on December 31, 1888. The examination suggested his body was kept at the bottom of the river for several weeks by stones placed in his pockets. The police concluded that he committed suicide by drowning under a state of depression, although he was known as a good swimmer. His disappearance and death shortly after the fifth and last canonical murder led some of the investigators of the time to suggest he was the Ripper, putting an end to the series of murders. More recently some have expressed doubts if he committed suicide or was himself murdered. Recent research shows that between the Kelly murder and his death he had been involved as legal representation in a court case and, according to the judge, argued his side well. Some people suggest that this counters the notion that Druitt had broken down mentally after the Kelly murder.
Is this just an error or have I missed something? Where do the dates November 19 and November 21 ("two days later") come from? I almost corrected this but I wondered if maybe there was something I was missing. Anyone know of a reason to believe that Druitt was seen at the school for the last time on November 19 and was sacked on November 21?
Andy S. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 752
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 4:35 am: |
|
Hi Andy,
It's Wikipedia. If something looks wrong the odds are extremely good that it is just wrong. Don't expect it to have better information than anything you've read. It's made by all volunteer editors, and it's rare when I find an article there which doesn't have multiple errors. Worse still, often when I bother to correct something someone changes it back to the wrong way.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
|
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 879
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
|
Dan --
I figured it was an error and it probably it. It's just that it is so specific that it looks odd. I mean, where did the date Nov. 19 come from? Where did the mention of "two days later" come from. Strange. They're not explainable errors.
Andy S. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 725
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
|
Hello everyone, but especially Sue Thomson,
Occasionally I miss a comment addressed to me, and I see that I have missed Ms Thomson's for nearly four months. I apologize for that. Thank you for your additional information regarding the Ardlamont tragedy, and the fact that Windsor Dudley Cecil Hambrough was probably not related to the Hambros in these other messages.
I have been aware of the story of Ardlamont through the writings of the great Scottish criminal historian and essayist William Roughead.
Roughead thought (and I tend to believe him) that Monson was guilty of murder and barely got away with it. But he felt the deciding point that saved Monson was the spririted and brilliant defense of John Comrie Thomson, the best barrister in Scotland in 1893. He also felt that Mr. Comrie Thomson was less certain about the innocence of his client than his courtroom defense would suggest. But that was Roughead's opinion.
Again, I apologize for taking so long in responding to your comment.
Best wishes,
Jeff Bloomfield |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 754
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
|
Hi Andy,
I searched through the contribution history to see if I could ask the person who added it where he came up with that idea, but unfortunately it was put there by someone on an anonymous account almost two years ago. No one has used that account for at least a year, and with anonymous accounts you can never be sure if someone else using it is the same person or not. That individual put in a lot of info on lots of suspects all at once, some of it equally odd but which has been changed since then. With that much info at once it may have come from some book or website. :shrugs:
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
|
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page