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Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 9:02 pm: |       |
Most people seem to believe that MJD was dismissed from his teaching position for improper conduct involving acts of homosexuality with students.
If Druitt was dismissed for this reason then how is it possible that he was carrying a paycheck
for his work at school up until the time he was sent packing. Not only did he have a back paycheck but it appears that he carried a rather signifigant check which which would likely have been severance pay.
If Druitt was caught engaging in homosexual activities with students he would have been fired and advised that he was lucky that the authorities were not involved. Payment would seem to be out of the question.
I believe Druitt wrote his suicide note and was telling the truth when he said he feared he was "becoming like Mother" and thereby implying that he was losing his grip on reality.
As for his teaching position, I believe he either began to display signs of incipient madness in front of his students or broke down to
such an extent that his condition was plain for all to see.
By the way, there is no reason to believe he could not have been homosexual in his private affairs.
Best Regards
Gary |
Jon Smyth
Police Constable
Username: Jon
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 12:10 am: | |
Gary, I don't know if you have read, 'The Ripper Legacy', by Howells & Skinner, but they touch on some points that might be of interest to you.
The 'fat cheque' may be simply that he was awarded the DCM (Dont come Monday), early termination, but full contract payed by the school.
Best Regards, Jon |
Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 9:14 am: | |
Jon
Thanks for the tip I will reread the Legacy. I read it so long ago that details are sketchy in my mind. I have well over 70 non-fiction Ripper titles (a major hole in my Ripper collection lies in the fact that I cannot for the life of me find William Stewarts', "A New Theory" (If someone has a copy PLEASE advertise it for sale through the Casebook) it's getting difficult to keep the details in all the books straight and recall who said what about whom.
This is probably early senility setting in at the tender age of 45.
The Legacy deals with Mjd as its' suspect and goes into some detail on his life,if I recall correctly. I have great respect for Mr. Skinners' research skills. However, I don't feel
MJD was the Ripper but rather a tragic figure whose only connection to the crimes was that he died roughly about the time the killings stopped:
Assuming they did stop with Mary Jane Kelly and I am not convinced that they did.
Best Regards
Gary
|
Jon Smyth
Police Constable
Username: Jon
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 10:27 am: | |
Gary
Williams Stewarts, "A New Theory", the last time I looked was going for around £300. Its by far the most expensive Ripper book and sorry to say, ironically, not one of the best, in my opinion, for a couple of reasons.
I last read it back in the 60's, I was not impressed then, but we have to make allowances for books written at such an early date.
The main point of interest I like about the Howells & Skinner book was the suggestion that MJD was a victim himself, not suicide but murder.
An interesting twist on an old theme.
Best Regards, Jon |
Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 12:10 pm: | |
Jon
I know that Stewart's book is not a worthwhile
read. I would like it for collectible purposes only. I'm not sure exactly how much 300 Pounds is in American dollars but I know it would be a hefty amount. I note that it was published in my native Canada. Perhaps I can get a relative to do a book search there.
Thanks for your quick reply.
Gary |
Gary Weatherhead
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2003 - 12:38 pm: | |
P.S.-I forgot to mention that I will be happy to continue the book discussion on the non-fiction book thread. This is the proper place for me to ramble on about my Ripper collection and the relative merit or lack thereof of the books. They truely range from the ridiculous to the sublime
Best Regards
Gary
|
Gibby Vendettuoli
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 9:48 pm: | |
The evidence I have turned up in my private investigation seems to indicate that Montague Druitt was fired from Valentine's school due to a homsexual incident that was staged purposely by forces as yet unknown to this investigation. |
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 1:47 am: | |
Hello Gary Weatherhead!
I am addressing you as a substantial possessor of books pertaining to JACK THE RIPPER.
Does your knowledge of your subject extend, perchance, to knowing exactly when certain JTR books were published?
I divine from your postings here that you live in the U.S.,do you have records which show when,say,
Donald McCormick published his first Edition of THE IDENTITY OF JACK THE RIPPER in England?
I know it was in 1959, but some research I am undertaking requires me to ascertain exactly which MONTH in 1959 this book was released.
Not only that, I want to find out if McCormick's 1959 JTR book was serialised in any English newspapers.
This is probably well outside your area of expertise; and a bit unfair if you live in the United States of America.But I'm just trying a long shot.Can you suggest British references which might tell me what I want to know? Thanks. |
Bob Hinton
Sergeant
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 5:16 am: | |
Dear Gibby,
Really? How interesting.
Bob |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 30
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 3:17 pm: | |
Oh no not again!
I hope this is not another Paul Masters. Please give a few more details Gibby.
Cheers, Mark |
John Savage
Police Constable
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 4:19 pm: | |
Hello John Ruffels
Donald McCormick's book "The Identity of JTR" was as you say published in 1959.
The publisher was Jarrolds Publishers (London) Ltd.
The firm of Jarrolds still exsists although these days they are mainly based in Norwich, it might be a good idea to contact them and ask if they can tell you the exact date of publication.
I do not know if this book was serialised in any of the newspapers, however McCormick was a journalist and I think he worked for the Daily Express, so they may be worth contacting.
Sorry I cannot help more.
Good Luck
John Savage |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 16
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
I see no-one has popped the question yet, so.....
Please John R. enlighten me as to why the month of publication matters, or the possibility of serialization, thanks, in anticipation.
Something tells me that if you were to contact Stewart Evans or Melvin Harris, either directly or through a third party you might find the answers you are looking for.
Regards, Jon |
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 4:03 am: | |
Thanks John Savage, I will try to track down Jarrolds and see just what they can tell me.
Also the DAILY EXPRESS backfiles, thanks.
Thanks to Jon Smyth too, I will try to contact Melvin Harris and Stewart Evans through a third party :Stephen J Ryder??...
I must be as circumspect as possible here, as I do not want to give too much away. But the reason I wish to know the exact month of McCormick's JTR
book release in 1959, and if serial rights to newspapers were granted can be found in.... Agatha Christies "THE 4.15 FROM PADDINGTON"!!
It has something to do with my as-yet-unfinished Dissertation on THE SEARCH FOR THE DANDENONG DOCUMENT.Unfortunately, I cannot say anymore at this stage .Sorry. |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 2:28 pm: | |
Can anyone enlighten me as to when and by whom it was first suggested that the "serious trouble" that Montague Druitt got into involved misconduct with his pupils?
As I have posted before there are a number of other reasons which to me are at least as plausible.
1) The purported suicide note referred to MJD's fear that he was going to be like his mother. This suggests to me he felt he had inherited his mother's form of insanity and this may have led to odd, even alarming behaviour at the school which led to his dismissal
2) It may be as simple as the fact that Montague was a lousy teacher! It would be interesting to know what was the status and reputation of Valentine's school. If it was seen as a prestigious academy then George Valentine may have stoutly defended standards in the school and found Montague wanting.
3) If we must have some thread of sexual impropriety, Montague was working in a small establishment with only one other teacher, a young man of his own age group called Mark Mann. Presumably they lived in and maybe even shared chambers. If George Valentine suspected or discovered that something untoward was goin on between them this would almost certainly have led to Montague's dismissal. It would be interesting to know how much later Mark Mann worked at the school.
Another question which interests (well two actually) arises from William Druitt's testimony in which he says he went to Blackheath and found that MJD had got into trouble and been dismissed.
It would be interesting to know:
Was it George Valentine who told him?
How much detail did William's informant go into? Did he actually know the full reason for the dismissal or only that it was "serious"?
Hope these thoughts are of interest
Chris S
|
Chris Phillips
Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 5:29 pm: | |
Chris
I'm afraid I can't say who first suggested that Montague Druitt was homosexual, or that he interfered with his pupils (perhaps John Ruffels can pin down the origin of the allegation?).
Suffice it to say that I've never seen a shred of evidence to support it, and I've never seen any evidence that Macnaghten's reference to "sexual insanity" implied that Druitt was homosexual, in 1890s parlance.
Of your suggested reasons for his dismissal, (1) seems reasonably plausible - perhaps Druitt's behaviour was strange, or he was becoming delusional. (2) doesn't seem so likely, given the duration of his career at Valentine's school.
If one was making the case against Druitt as a Ripper suspect, though, the obvious suggestion to make would be that he had been staying out all night, and perhaps even that that the nights in question had given rise to suspicion that he was the killer.
Obviously, Macnaghten was wrong in thinking that Druitt "resided with his own people", but was he also wrong in thinking that he "absented himself from home at certain times"?
Given the statements in 1891 of the "West of England member" about "a man with blood-stained clothes", the son of a surgeon, committing suicide after the murders, one could even wonder whether Druitt's clothes had been seen to be blood-stained. But maybe that would be pushing speculation too far.
Chris Phillips
|
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 11:38 pm: | |
Hi, Chris:
Stephen Knight in Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution (1975) implies that Montague John Druitt was implicated in the coterie of men involved in the homosexual practices in Cleveland Street that led to the busting of the men who cavorted there in 1889. Knight maintains that Druitt's name became linked to the case through Walter Sickert. Knight says that Druitt was made a scapegoat for the Ripper crimes by Macnaghten.
Since we don't know the full facts of the case against Druitt, it could have been assumed by some authors that his dismissal from a boys school also involved homosexuality. The links that Knight gives to link Druitt to Cleveland Street are tenuous and a "Six Degrees of Separation" type thing but stated by him with much implication and brassy fanfare suitable for a gay club. I summarize (from Knight, Academy Chicago paperback of 1986, pp. 138-140):
1) Prince Eddy's tutor, Canon John Neale Dalton, was educated at Blackheath, the same school where Druitt became a master.
2) Druitt's brother was in the same regiment as the artist Frank Miles.
3) Miles lived in Tite Street, Chelsea across the street from Sir Melville Macnaghten.
4) Next door to Miles lived Whistler, mentor to Walter Sickert.
5) Also in Tite Street lived Miles's former lover Oscar Wilde. (A well known homosexual, get out your pink and purple hankies!)
6) Present at parties at Wilde's were Prince Eddy, Sickert, and Frank Miles, as well as Prince Albert aka Bertie, the future Edward VII. (Are you getting excited yet?)
7) "Macnaghten was a likely guest at these parties, though this is not definite." Oh, Stephen don't let us down. . . "Macnaghten and Sickert were fellow members of the Garrick Club." Ah well that all but proves it then!
8) After the Mordaunt divorce scandal of 1869 in which Bertie was involved, Lady Mordaunt was declared insane. Also in the same lunatic asylum was Mrs. Ann Druitt, Montague's mother. Aha!
9) Ripper suspect James K. Stephen's brothers were barristers with Druitt.
10) "The Stephens were all patients of Sir William Gull, the man Sickert names as the prime mover in the Ripper case."
11) Druitt was surrounded by people who had close links to the account told by Sickert. One of the barristers sharing quarters at King's Bench Walk with Druitt was Reginald Brodie Dyke Acland, the brother of Sir William Gull's son-in-law.
12) Dyke Acland's father was Honorary Physician to Bertie and a close friend of Gull.
13) Acland was a friend of painter Holman Hunt, who had had a studio in Cleveland Street. Wow!
14) Last and, in Knight's words, "The final link [that] is the vital one": dee dah! "The solicitor who investigated the second part of the Cleveland Street cover-up, Edward Henslow Bedford, lived at 9 King's Bench Walk, the same address as Druitt. Woweee!!!!!!!
Of course, this is all a bit silly, all these people moved in upper class or upper middle class circles and knew each other but were not necessarily involved in nefarious dealings, homosexual or otherwise. But the point I am trying to make is that Knight with all this innuendo and implication almost "proves" Druitt to have been a homosexual and part of the Cleveland Street set-up so that anyone thinking of the dismissal from Blackheath is going to think ah ha, boys school, tut tut, it had to be a homosexual affair. But it would be bad scholarship to assume that was the case.
All the best
Chris
|
Chris Phillips
Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 15
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 3:29 am: | |
But the point I am trying to make is that Knight with all this innuendo and implication almost "proves" Druitt to have been a homosexual and part of the Cleveland Street set-up so that anyone thinking of the dismissal from Blackheath is going to think ah ha, boys school, tut tut, it had to be a homosexual affair. But it would be bad scholarship to assume that was the case.
I thought that was rather a nice reductio ad absurdum of Knight's case, until I came to the last bit. Do you really think it 'almost "proves"' Druitt to have been homosexual, or have I missed the point?
Chris Phillips
|
John Ruffels
Police Constable
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 6:26 am: | |
I don't have any scintillating clues to add to those of the TWO CHRISes above.
Suffice to say, Macnaghten, by the act of lumping
Montague Druitt in a short list with two other JTR suspects who police knew to have unsocial
sexual proclivities,taints him by association in the cluttered memories of Ripperologists.
When one looks at Druitt's career it is almost exclusively in a male-dominated world.Admittedly
Victorian times were like that; and middle-class England sought to raise their young men like Spartans.Even Mr Valentine's school, according to the 1881 Census, appears to have had very few
females about the place.
Cricket teams: a male preserve.The Bar in London
(pre Rumpole days) was almost exclusively male.
However, if one examines Druitt's later career,he DOES seem to have been absent from the school rather a lot....
If the two Masters were also supposed to provide
weekend supervision,then Druitt's absences for weekend three-day cricket carnivals elsewhere, must have strained his relationship with the marvellously-named "MARK MANN".(Now there's a Ripper suspect for you.Maybe they were looking at the wrong master!!).
Not to mention Druitt's swanning up to London for
fully-fledged court cases...And constant train-rides to London Bridge to check for fresh briefs at 9 KingsBench Walk.He must never have been in the swimming pool at Eliot Place!
As for Stephen Knight's necklace of improbable
associations...
Wasn't it Horace who said:COINCIDENCE MAKES FOOLS OF US ALL?
Keep digging, there is more ore to be found regarding Montague Druitt.GO TO IT!
|
Christopher T George
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 7:49 am: | |
Hi Chris:
I am far from saying Knight proved Druitt to be a homosexual, I am only saying Knight seemed to think all these threads of non-evidence proved that Druitt was part of the Cleveland Street homosexual fraternity. I think it's a stretch, and to make the implication that Walter Sickert had anything to do with Macnaghten naming Druitt is bizarre. Note that Knight only links Sickert and Macnaghten through the geographic proximity of people they knew in Chelsea and a club where they were both members. I live in Baltimore down the street from avant gard film maker and shockmeister John Waters, but does that make Mr. Waters and I partners in crime? The truth is we don't know the full reasons for why Macnaghten named Druitt but it seems less than likely that Sickert's oil paint and linseed oil fragrant hand had a part in it. By the way, I think Chris Scott had said that he did not think "sexually insane" meant homosexuality. On the contrary, I think the term implies some form of sexual deviancy, and homosexuality in that age was so viewed, so I really think Macnaghten could have been hinting at homosexuality. Note that this could have been a separate idea though than that Druitt had a part in the Cleveland Street set-up.
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
Hi John
As you seemed interested in Mark Mann, montague's fellow teacher, these are the biographical details I have managed to find about him:
Mark Francis James MANN
Co teacher with Montague Druitt at George Valentine's School in Blackheath
Parentage: son of Gother Frederick Mann (Major-General Royal Engineers) and Margaret Macleod Baynes
Born: July 21st 1855 in St. Peter Port, Guernsey
Baptised: August 11, 1855
Education: Wellington College (the College was opened in 1859 so MFJM must have been one of the earliest pupils)
Education: Entered St Johns College Cambridge, Michaelmas Term on February 2nd 1874. Obtained B.A. in 1878.
Profession: Private tutor
Died: January 4th 1925 in Guernsey (death reported in The Times, January 7th, 1925.
Father GOTHER FREDERICK MANN Major-General
Born 13 December 1817 in Montreal, Canada
Gother Frederick Mann, CB. Regimental Ranks: 2nd Lieutenant, 18-6-1836; Lieutenant, 31-3-1838; 2nd Captain, 1-4- 1846; Captain, 17-2-1854; Lieutenant Colonel, 20-6-1859; Colonel, 10-11-1868. Army Ranks: Major, 13-4-1858; Colonel, 20-6-1864; Major General, 13-8-1874. War Service: China, 1857-1858 and 1860. Retired on full pay, 13-8-1874. Died at Upper Norwood, 2-3-1881.
(notes from http://hometown.aol.com/reubique/officers.htm)
Grandfather FREDERICK W. MANN General
Born (c) 1785 in Channel Isles
Hope this is of interest
Regards
Chris S |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:38 pm: | |
Hi all
With regard to my notes about Mark Mann in last post, I don't know what he achieved in later life to merit an obituary in The Times. I havent yet seen a copy of the times of Jan 7th 1925 - would be interesting to see what the newspaper had to say about him
Chris S |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
Whatho all,
Macnaughton seems to have got so many things wrong, I wonder why anyone bothers with his views. He must have made a marvellous policeman.
Cheers, Mark |
Chris Scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 4:42 pm: | |
Hi Mark
I agree that there are many queries about the Macnaghten memorandum and most of these have been often repeated - the fact the memorandum was written six years after the murders, he did not take up a post with the Met Police until 1889 etc. But one aspect I have not seen queried is his motivation for writing the report and depositing it in the police files.
IN The Ultimate source Book it says the memorandum was written in response to press reports about the activities of Thomas Cutbush.
But my question is written for whose attention, addressed to whom? Private notes and thoughts such as the Swanson "marginalia" were pencilled in the edition of a book but Macnaghten went to the trouble of drafting an offical confidential report and depositing it in the case file.
Did he write this just for posterity, to "set the record" straight?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated
Chris S |
John Savage
Police Constable
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
Hi Chris Scott
I have just had opportunity to read "The Times" obituary for 07/01/1925.
There is a three line notice on page one column a listing the death of Mark Mann and giving no more details than in your earlier post.
Written obits. appear on page 14 column e and are given for:
Mr. J.B. Hotham
Bishop Phelan Sir George Wigley.
I could find no other info. on Mark Mann.
Regards,
John Savage |
Chris scott
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:08 pm: | |
Hi John
Many thanks for that info. Very much appreciated
Chris S |
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