| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 385
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 1:36 pm: |       |
I now have access to the marriage registers for 1879, the year usually assigned to Kelly's marriage to Davies/Davis.
I have done a search of these for all four quarters and this produced three marriages for that year where one of the parties was named Mary Jane Kelly.
These were:
Quarter 1 (Jan - Mar)
Registered in Chorlton (Cheshire)
Quarter 3 (Jul - Sep)
Registered in Sunderland (Tyne and Wear)
Quarter 4 (Oct - Dec)
Registered in Wigan (Manchester)
I will continue to research further into these three marriages of which the only one which even remotely near the supposed Welsh location of Kelly at this time is the first one.
Chris S |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 556
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 3:27 pm: | |
Hi Chris
I found a Mary Kelly in Denbigh, 17, unmarried, family from Ireland, living in a colliery cottage.
But Denbigh seemed the wrong end of Wales.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 387
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Robert
I assume this was a census record - which year are we talking about?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 558
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 4:39 pm: | |
Sorry Chris, I mean the 1881 census. Of course, for this to have anything to do with a 79 marriage she'd have had to list herself as unmarried rather than widowed, which seems unlikely.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 590
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 9:31 am: | |
G'day Chris,
Is it possible to find a 'Davies' to match?
LEANNE |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 389
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Hi Leanne
Kelly would have been in under her maiden name but without knowing a first name for Davies/Davis it is the proverbial needle in the haystack - all you could match on would be a match on quarter and place. I will look for that but it will be ver inconclusive on such a common name
Regards
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 390
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 10:28 am: | |
Hi Robert
As for your comment about the "wrong" end of wales, the Barnett quotes either Carmarthen or Caernarfon which are at opposite ends so either extreme is arguable
Chris |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 391
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 10:34 am: | |
Leanne
I have done some searching:
1) The MJK from quarter 1 who married in Corlton was married to either Frederick Beatty or William Leigh (the indexes list all partners married that day without making it clear who is paired with who!)
2) The MJK who married in Wigan in quarter 4 was wed to either Michael Fairhurst or Jeffrey Hart
The quarter 3 marriage on Sunderland I cannot currently find on the master list so will look onthe full list under Davies or Davis
Chris |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 591
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 5:41 pm: | |
G'day Chris,
At Kelly's inquest, Barnett said that Mary married a "Davis or Davies, I think Davies."
I'd choose "Davies" first, because it looks like a correction of his memory! That will narrow your search by half. Then I s'pose if if you still can't find that needle, you can search for "Davis" as a last resort!
LEANNE |
THE_RESEARCHER
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 7:51 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Keep up the excellent fact hunting.
If you have the time and access to the 1891 census,
could you check the whereabouts of an Irish woman employed in the early 1880's as a maid in London.
Her name was Kate Kenny.
With any luck,you will not find her!
Thanks in advance,
Michael |
Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 6:37 am: | |
Try looking for Marie Jeanette Kelly as that was her name at birth and before she came to London. Just an idea. |
Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:43 am: | |
Hi,
Just realised that Marie Jeanette wasn't stated as her name at birth as far as we know (not that we know what was her real birth name was). It's the name on her gravestone though so it's still probably worth investigating. |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 557
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 1:45 pm: | |
To The Researcher
Just caught your post above from 11 August - I am intrigued!
I found Kate Kenny in the 1881 census and her details (apart from marriage) are spookily as we would expect for Kelly.
She is listed as a General servant at 15 King's Road, London and was working for the Duerre family.
Here are the details:
Head:
Charles W A Duerre aged 51 born Memet, Prussia
Watchmaker
Wife:
Emma Duerre aged 47 born London
Children:
Arthur G aged 19 Watchmaker
Ada S aged 12
Ernest F aged 10
Edward H aged 7
Bertha R aged 3
All children were born in London
Servant:
Kate Kenny aged 18 (born 1863) in Limerick, Ireland
As you rightly supposed, I could not positively this same person in the 1891 census. There were twom women of the name Kate Kenny listed born in Ireland, but their ages were 35 and 34 whereas the Kate mentioned above would have been 28.
Can you let me know who this Kate kenny is and how you came across her name please:-)
Regards
Chris
|
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 558
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 26, 2003 - 1:55 pm: | |
Hi Sarah
I have tried in the 1881 census under the following combinations:
Marie Jeanette (open surname) 0 records
Marie Davies (born Ireland) 0 records
Marie Davis (born Ireland) 0 records
Chris |
Paul Williams
Police Constable
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
Some records of births, marriages and deaths are online at the free site http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/ The information is incomplete, they need more volunteer transcribers, and there are various problems when searching for information. However I thought it would be a useful exercise to search for marriages involving Mary Kelly in all Welsh counties between March 1875 and December 1885. This identified four marriages involving Mary Jane Kelly, in Swansea, June 1876, Neath March 1880, Newport September 1880 and Pontypridd, May 1885. The last one is probably too late and the first may be too early. None can be linked to a man named Davis or Davies. |
Paul Williams
Police Constable
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 4:52 pm: | |
Although the above index is incomplete a high percentage, approaching 100%, of marriages for the relevant years have been transcribed. The only marriage I could find, on a national search, between a Mary Kelly and a man called Davis or Davies was that of Mary Ann Kelly and John Brook Davis in Shoreditch, March 1881. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 847
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 5:12 pm: | |
Hi Paul
That's very interesting. The trouble with Kelly is we don't know how much of what she told Barnett was true, and how much romance. There is a report (I forget which newspaper) that one of the women who knew her claimed she spoke fluent Welsh, but otherwise, as far as I can see, she could have come from London, since the letters from Ireland needn't necessarily mean that she was born there.
I keep being drawn to the Mary Kelly, prostitute aged 23 born Whitechapel, living at the Whitechapel Union Infirmary during the 1881 census, but I wonder if this elusive woman will ever be tracked down!
Robert |
Paul Williams
Police Constable
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 5:51 pm: | |
There was a Mary Ann Kelly born in Whitechapel, with the birth registered in September 1862, a Mary Jane Kelly born in Cardiff and registered September 1859 and countless other Mary Kellys, several with second name Jane, born in the UK within the right time. Even if she told Barnett the truth he could then have exagerated or altered some details. |
Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 12:13 pm: | |
Just had a thought!! No wonder my brain hurts!!
The other vitims, or most of them, were all said to look at least 10 years younger. What if MJK was actually up to 10 years older than she was. The only reason we know that the others were older than they looked was that they had family members to state their age but MJK had no family nearby. We only have to go on what she told others or what others thought was her age.
It might be worth looking for her being born from 1853 onwards as well. |
Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 119
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 10:29 pm: | |
Hi,
Any more word on Kate Kenny? The initial question, with such interesting details being found, suggests something is afoot. Do we know just what yet? Is there any indication this Kate Kenny got married, or can we find out if she had brothers, especially any in the army? I doubt all aspects of Kelly's described past are accurate, but there might be some grains of truth to the stories told.
- Jeff |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 635
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 11:42 am: | |
Jeff
I agree that the initial message from Michael (The Researcher) was intriguing.
As I said above Kate Kenny does not appear in the 1891 census. There is only one Kenny family listed with family members from Limerick and their details are as follows.
Address:
65 South Chester Street
Toxteth Park
Lancashire
Head:
Michael Kenny aged 50 General Labourer
Born Tipperary, Ireland
Wife:
Ann Kenny aged 49
Born Limerick, Ireland
Children:
Michael aged 23 Compositor
Born Liverpool
Maggie aged 25 born Limerick Ireland
Katie aged 16 Machinist
Born Liverpool
Peter aged 14 Boot maker
Born Liverpool
Joseph aged 10 born Liverpool
Other:
Ann Kent aged 63 Lodger
Born Cork, Ireland
Living on Own Means
Using a bit of logic based on the children's places of birth, Maggie aged 25 was born in Limerick, Michael aged 23 was born in Liverpool. IF this is Kate Kenny's family, then she would in 1891 have been 28, so her date of birth would have preceded their presumed move to Liverpool so a place of birth of Limerick would be consistent.
We can therefore assume that this Kenny family moved from Limerick to Liverpool some time between 1866 and 1868 (the birthdates respectively of Maggie and Michael)
There is no proof that this is the family of Kate Kenny mentioned in the 1881 census. All we can say at this stage that it is the only family in the 1891 census with the surname Kenny that has a documented link with Limerick.
Hope this is of interest
Chris
|
Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 125
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:44 pm: | |
Hi Chris,
Interesting! I'm assuming this latest post is from the 1891 census data, correct? Although this Kenny family has Limerick connections, and seems to have moved to Liverpool after a point in time that our first Kate Kenny was born, given that Katie Kenny is 16 in 1891, that would mean that this family gave two of their daughters the same name.
I suspect that works against the idea that this is our "first" Kate Kenny's immidiate family, but maybe we're looking here at Uncles, Aunts, and cousins?
If so, Kate might have been Michael's mother's name. I'm assuming the paternal grandmother because of the match on the last name with our "Kate of interest". Taking this line of reasoning further, that would suggest that Michael Kenny and the father of the missing Kate Kenny found in 1881 census, would be brothers, and their mother's name was Kate. Obviously, this is a highly speculative statement and is most probably wrong. But it suggests some links to look for to see if a connection can be made. Do the Limerick census records go back to near 1831, where we might find Michael's parents and sibling information? If so, and if his mother was named Kate, that would be really cool. It's such an unlikely thing to occur by chance that it would be very promising. Of course, one would have to also show that one of Michael's brothers later married and had a daughter also named Kate, etc.
Although this is all interesting, I'm still curious as to why we're look for a "Kate Kenny" in reference to Mary Jane Kelly though? The Kenny/Kelly is clear, but where does the Kate come from? Am I just forgetting one of Mary Jane's aliases from somewhere?
- Jeff |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 636
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 7:40 am: | |
Hi jeff
Yes this is 1891 data.
Where the Kate Kenny name came from I dont as yet know. I was just following a lead suggested by Michael (aka The Researcher) in a post on August 11th and I dont know what his source for this suggestion was
Chris |
Jeff Hamm
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 128
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 3:48 pm: | |
Hi,
Thanks Chris! Wonderful job, as usual. I was hoping Michael might share with us his reasons for looking for a Kate Kenny. Oh well, it's just tantalising enough to be curious. Thanks again.
- Jeff |
Sarah
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 10:41 am: | |
What about this:-
Catherine (Kate) Kenny born 1864-1865 in Laughane, Ireland. Death unknown.
Probably not.... |
