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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 325
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 11:04 am: | 
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If anyone's having trouble telling a weasel from a stoat, here's a tip - it's weasely done because they're stoatally different. 
Hi Glenn,
No, I don't think of it as sinister or dark, but I've had enough lately of feeling not in control of what's happening. Coming round in hospital to find unexpected things have been done to you by unknown hands while under anaesthetic is a bit unnerving. 
Love,
Caz |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 223
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:55 pm: |
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Hi Caz,
By the way, when I wrote that post, I had hoped not to have to use my dictionary. That was obviously a mistake. I don't think it's changing anything, but just correct things...: the method is naturally called "regression hypnosis", not "recession...". No wonder you thought it sounded unattractive... 
Bad knowledge in english and being under stress is not a great combination. Sorry about that.
Hope your book is going well, by the way, Caz.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 333
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 11:43 am: |
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Hi Glenn,
Your knowledge of English cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be described by anyone here as bad. If I were called upon to start writing in Swedish, I'd know what stress is. 
I recommend chucking away the dictionary for an hour or two and being under the mi-stress instead.
I'm very happy with the book, thanks. At least it's one not in my 'to be read' pile.
Love,
Caz |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 232
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 6:20 pm: |
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Hi Carrotty Caz,
Thanks for the kind words -- I'm doing my best, but it's not easy; I think the retorical and litterary level is quite high on this board. That's why I sometimes feel I need to consult the dictionary.
Have you heard, by the way, that the swedish minister of foreign affairs (a very talented woman) was assasinated yesterday? She was stabbed to death in a mall, shopping for clothes... She died early this morning.
Here in Sweden we may have lived in a glass bubble for many years, but now the reality seem to have caught up with us. Our prime minister was murdered 17 years ago (with the offender still uncaught and unidentified), and now this. Bad signs...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Frank van Oploo
Police Constable
Username: Franko
Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 7:35 pm: |
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Hej Glenn,
I heard about this minister's assasination when I was driving to work this morning. Terrible thing. It's something like what happened in Holland last year in May, when the popular politician Pim Fortuyn was shot in the head several times up close. Almost our whole country was plunged into mourning. And from what I've seen on television, it's a bit the same in Sweden. Fortunately in Fortuyn's case they got the killer almost immediately. I hope that the police get her killer very soon...
Hälsningar,
Frank |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 234
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 4:50 am: |
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Hej Frank,
Hoe gaat het?
Sorry about that shooting incident, Frank -- sounds terrible as well. Yes, it's about the same in Sweden -- it's been two days now of official, complete mourning and memory services on television. I'm not that found of politicians, but she was a bit out of the ordinary -- positively speaking.
I don't want to give the police a hard time here, but I feel a bit pessimistic about the chances of getting the killer (again!); the swedish police is quite unexperienced in cases like this, and with the result of the Olof Palme murder in mind, well then...
We zien elkaar nog wel. Tot straks!
Hälsningar
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Frank van Oploo
Police Constable
Username: Franko
Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 1:01 pm: |
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Hej Glenn,
Bra! Hur mår du i dag? Det har du well done, that speaking in Dutch! I must say that it's very funny - and a bit strange as well, to see those Dutch words here, now that I'm used to only talking (and thinking) in English on the boards.
Now more seriously, the politician that was killed here was quite out of the ordinary, I think you would have liked him a lot (with this I'm not saying anything negative about you - or him). He was quite eccentric, liked to argue and was nothing like the 'normal' politicians, and so were his idea's.
Somewhere today I heard that the killer might have been a homeless wanderer and at some later point I heard minister Lindh had received threatening letters.
Still, I hope it doesn't turn out like you fear: that they wont catch the murderer (very easily)...
Vi ses!
Frank  |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 239
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 4:22 pm: |
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Hej Frank,
Hartelijk dank!
Jo tack, bara bra.
Well, I though it was about time I'd return the courtesy. And I like languages as well (the others here must think we have totally lost it...)
Yes, I though it felt quite funny to see those Swedish words here as well -- swedish is by the way supposed to be a very hard laguage to learn, as I understand.
"He was quite eccentric, liked to argue and was nothing like the 'normal' politicians, and so were his idea's."
Ah! Sounds like my kind of guy! True, true. Funny I don't remember the incident, though.
Yes, you've heard right. At first they believed it to be a random killing, now it turns out that she had been bothered for some time by a stalker, and that they now suspect him. They had to release the two first suspects they had in custody.
They have found a bloody knife at the crime scene, which is supposed to be the murder weapon and is now searching it for finger prints and DNA. They believe he has a criminal history or a past in the psyciatric care, so they expect to match these evidence with someone in their files. And I think that's a fair assumption. The problem is that everything takes too long; the critical 24 hours have lond since passed and the media, wise from experience from other cases, is really giving the police here a good bashing. The police didn't even stop the subways or buses after the incidents and there are other worrying details as well. Everyone here is now slowly loosing hope, but it's still quite early in the investigations, so we'll see what happens. But the clock is ticking...
I see that we have now completely wandered far off the Frances Coles thread here; hopefully you people here can find a way to get back on track while I'm away. I think she's worth the attention just as much as the other ladies that ended as murder victims in this context.
I couldn't find a good ending phrase at the moment, so here is one totally pointless:
"Neem nog een koekje!" 
All the best, Frank!
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 436
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:49 am: |
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Hi Robert,
I have finally got my copy of "The Ultimate Companion" -- after a seven week's wait! -- and you were right! The pictures of Sadler and Coles are much better than average.
Regarding the portrait of Frances Coles (that can be seen elswhere as well), it seems rather good, although her mounth maybe are a bit too small, compared to the mortuary photo. The picture I haven't seen before, the one of them both in the doss-house, is revealing the talents of a much better artist than the one assigned by Illustrated Police News, although it's a bit theatrical in its rendering of the subject. Brings illustrations from old avdenture books to mind... But it's well done.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 957
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 12:40 pm: |
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Hi Glenn
Yes, Coles's mouth is a bit small, but they've made up for it by giving her a very large scarf!
I always think the photo of a young Swanson reminds me a little of Phillip Jackson's Inspector Japp in the "Poirot" TV programmes.
By the way, Glenn, notice how many people are wearing peaked caps in the various drawings? I wonder how common peaked caps were and what it was about Lawende's man that suggested to Lawende that he looked like a sailor, other than the peaked cap.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 440
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 4:59 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
"I always think the photo of a young Swanson reminds me a little of Phillip Jackson's Inspector Japp in the "Poirot" TV programmes."
Actually, that did strike me as well! It does indeed.
Yes, I'm afraid peaked caps were quite common among the working class, not just sailors. Maybe he had heard about Schwartz' testimony (from the Stride investigation) about the peaked cap and the loosely tied handkerchief, or maybe the person he saw had a similar handkerchief or clothing but never happened to mention it? Or maybe from writings in the press or the word on the street? The cap and the scarf together I think made the impression of a sailor. I don't know, but it must have been something more than just the cap that gave him the notion of a sailor, although a sailor is the one that first springs to mind automatically, in spite of the fact that others wore it as well. It could be as simple as that. We all have our personal preferences; that's what makes witness statements so difficult.
By the way, have you seen how many men during those days that only had moustasch? Talk about a totally useless detail in a witness description or a line-up ...
All the best 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 441
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 5:12 pm: |
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By the way, Robert:
We have a new round of episodes with Frost going here now. And he's still eating sandwiches!
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 961
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:08 pm: |
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Yes, Glenn - his own, and everyone else's.
He's always the one who solves the cases, because his sidekicks are still trying to work out what happened to their chips!
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 450
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:23 am: |
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Funny about the sandwiches, really. He for the most part takes a few bites, looks at it with a grin and the throws it away. No wonder he constantly has to be on the hunt for more of them or some chips...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden
|
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 359
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 5:44 pm: |
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Hi all
Just an update. The passage at the eastern end is Abels Buildings (I did see it listed as Abells Buildings in one directory).
Rob |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 363
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 3:51 pm: |
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I came across these illustrations of Frances which I haven't seen before.
From "The Illustrated Police News Saturday 21 February 1891"
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 3577
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 4:30 pm: |
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Great find, Rob - though not very flattering for poor Frances!
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 366
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 5:06 pm: |
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Hi Robert
It wasn't that difficult to find really. It's quite surprising they haven't been published already as the following two issues were published in Melvin Harris's "The True Face of Jack the Ripper".
As you say not very flattering to Frances, who was probably the most attractive of the victims (alleged or otherwise).
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2352
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 5:18 pm: |
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Hi Mr. Clack,
Robert took the words out of my mouth; as usual when it comes to The Illustrated Police News, the depiction of the female murder victim is less than flattering (as Robert points out, Frances was rather attractive compared to many of the others).
But I do like the dramatic feeling in the drawings and the tasty capturing of the environments. Really interesting and quite atmospheric.
Great stuff, Rob, as your photo contributions always are as well.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Want to buy some pegs, Dave?"
Papa Lazarou
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 367
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 5:50 pm: |
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Thanks Glenn, The Illustrated Police News seemed to have changed tack, around the turn of the century, judging from the amount of heaving bosums I saw 
All the best
Rob
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 390
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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Hi Dark Intent
The other passages on the Greenwood map had names also, one was Back Change and one was Johnson Change. The maps I used for accuracy were the ordnance Survey for 1873
and 1894
The large scale one identified the correct location. This drawing from the illustrated Police News is the view from Royal Mint Street and that lines up exactly with the map. I did see a similar drawing which Stewart Evans has (I saw it on one of the extras on the 'From Hell' dvd) which showed the pavement also, which lined up perfectly. The problem I had at first was locating the arch today. Cartwright Street moved slightly in the years after 1894 which didn't help, but thankfully the row of arches bent out slightly and I was able to match up the right one today with a map from the Royal Mint Street side. Also you might be able to trace a faint marking down the left side of the arch where the wall in the drawing was. This is the sketch
And the close up of the arch
So I was positive I located the right arch. Next I had to trace it to the other side to Chamber Street, which didn't seem a problem as the Royal Mint Street side was brick up, meaning there must be a door on the other side and it was the first archway bricked up walking from Mansell Street, which lead me to this one
So that was it, and I put together this map based on the 1894 O.S Map
And everything was Rosey in the garden. Then I hit a snag. I turned up a copy of the Illustrated Police News with this drawing
which caused me some anxiety, but having a good think, I believe the problem is that the buildings on the south side of Chamber Street (at least the ones by Swallow Gardens were demolished between 1891 and 1894) so the map I did may not be strictly accurate about the south side having no buildings by Swallow Gardens, but the location of Swallow Gardens is. And this is a large scale map from 1873 showing the buildings there and Swallow Gardens and Abel Buildings marked.
All the best
Rob
Phew
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DARK_INTENT
Police Constable
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:11 pm: |
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Rob
This is excellent stuff. I still have a problem with the location though. I can see that three buildings have gone between the 1873 and the 1894 OS Maps but the scale is still wrong. I can see that there is room for these three buildings on the map, but not apparently in the modern photos and even if we move three building lengths it doesn't take it far enough for the 'red' locations. I think we're missing some detail here, but goodness knows what.
Incidentally the detail on the Greenwood Map is 'Swallow Gardens' (lot of distortion on the map, presumably from the original digitisation) see below, but it seems the press were unsure as one of the illustrations (from the Royal Mint Street end) calls it 'Sparrow Gardens'. One thing I hadn't taken into account on the Greenwood Map was the fact that it pre-dated the Great Eastern Railway's arches, which would have cut a swathe through the then Swallow Gardens layout, but I'm thinking that some sort of warren may have been left. Hopefully someone will have yet more info on this.
D_I
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Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 393
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 6:45 pm: |
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Hi Dark Intent
Comparing the 1873 and 1894 maps it looks as if the arches extended further North in the 1894 map then they do in the 1873 one, which leads me to believe that after 1891 and after Francis Coles murder, major extension work was done along the Chamber Street side of the arches which would explain the lack of room now, then there was when there were buildings there. It would also explain why the archway leading into Swallow Gardens looks different today then it does in the sketch.
Just for completeness, this is Chamber Street from 1862
and from an 1888 map which isn't to be relied upon as it looks like it was just reprinted from an earliar map and not bothered to be updated.
Rob |
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 7:59 pm: |
|
Thank you everyone for this very illuminating (but disappointing) news. So I haven't been on the spot. Even the great Sugden has a photo of Abel Buildings listed as Swallow Gardens. I have heard Fido say he finds walking down Swallow Gardens a scary experience, and as you clearly can't then he too is mistaken. I've asked others about this too - one of them extremely in the know - and they ALL thought it was Swallow Gardens. Why is it always the good ones you can't get to? It's like the relevant arch in Pinchin Street being the only one that's blocked up! (As a comic aside when I was doing tonight's Ripper walk a different group had the Mitre Square bench - I don't know what their guide was telling them, but as they left people were taking close-up photos of THE COBBLES (alright, if we are being pedantic - the SETTS) 20 feet away from the murder spot!) |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 397
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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Hi Phillip
It's not really surprising people have been mistaken, considering Abel Buildings is the only passage today where you can walk from Chamber Street into Royal Mint Street. It is not even marked and it does look like some of the sketches of Swallow Garden.
I fined one of the biggest mistakes made is reading about Millers Court now being covered by a car park!
When I left the last Cloak and Dagger meeting in December, I took a cab home and as we drove down Mansell Street I took a look into Chamber Street and it was pitch black, I couldn't even make out Swallow Gardens arch. There is no way I would have walked down there.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2719
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Philip,
"(As a comic aside when I was doing tonight's Ripper walk a different group had the Mitre Square bench - I don't know what their guide was telling them, but as they left people were taking close-up photos of THE COBBLES (alright, if we are being pedantic - the SETTS) 20 feet away from the murder spot!)"
Could be because those are the only elements on that place that still are supposed to be original and genuine (unless I have been told a complete fairy-tale)...
I know I found that fascinating myself, since the rest is completely changed and demolished.
But OK, taking photos of them 20 feets away...
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 06, 2005)
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2005 - 7:12 pm: |
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I think that's what it was, Glenn. I am used to my groups and others taking photos of the actual spot (I know of one guide who was even shocked to find one guy had his girlfriend lay on the murder spot for the photo, which is a little unsettling!), but these were people crouching down and taking close-ups of a specific area of the setts.
You are indeed right - the setts are all that remain, though the Sir John Cass Foundation School in the background (not visible at the time of course) is original. One thing a lot of people don't notice is that there used to be more setts towards Church Passage. Where these were, and the narrowness of Church Passage before it was enlarged and renamed St James Passage, is still clear to see as narrow kerbstones (unintentionally?) are set into the larger flagstones that line the alleyway. I do apologise if I am telling you things you knew already!
It's rather difficult in my situation to guage what others are 'strong' on; for me I know a bit about the victims, how they were found, and times. I'm pretty strong on the locations and what is there now / what used to be there as, of course, being a tour guide I like to show people what it was like (that's what marks me out from a lot of the other Ripper guides - I try to take my tourists back to the time - and I must be the only one that actually sings 'Only A Violet' outside the site of Millers Court!). However, I know next to nothing about the major police players or the investigation. I think my knowledge is a magnification of what the casual tourist would want to know.
I think my access to the locations could well be my sole bargaining tool on Casebook! As I always tell people who ask me : compared to a layman I am a Jack The Ripper expert. Compared to the other experts, I know nothing! |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2728
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 12:52 pm: |
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Hi Philip,
"I know of one guide who was even shocked to find one guy had his girlfriend lay on the murder spot for the photo, which is a little unsettling!"
Hahaha... Well, I guess a subject like this attracts the attention of more or less peculiar people. I think some just takes it a bit too far sometimes. But then again, it is a subject that indeed intrigues the imagination -- I guess us humans in general has a need to explore the unknown and are intrigued by the bizarre, maybe more than we'd like to admit. And that sometimes can express itself in weird conducts.
I sure like your local history approach to the case, and how you try to create a feel for the area and take the public back in time through visual stuff.
It corroborates quite well with my own approach as a local historian here in my home town. When I wrote my own book about local crimes in my area, I tried to take the reader on a journey through time, with photos, stories, individual people research and using "old versus new" pictures from the same spots etc. That is usually something I think is lacking in many Ripper books, since they are in general not that richly illustrated.
It would indeed be interesting to attend one of your walks next time I am in London, if you still are doing that.
As for myself, I think I have a fair knowledge of investigation methods and how the police operated, since I have been dealing with criminology and crime history for some years, but as you say -- compared to many others, I could hardly consider myself an expert. Generally, I am a historian -- specialising in the late 19th century and early 20th century -- and my main input in the Ripper case is the social and overall historical context (as well as the local historical one), not looking for suspects or solving the case as such or play detective.
Speaking of "setts" (a word I've never heard before, as a Swede), surely those in Gunthorpe Street (at least in the narrow passage close to the White Hart pub) must be the originals as well? They sure look old, and the buildings seems genuine as well, compared to older photos. Can you by any chance confirm this?
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
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DARK_INTENT
Police Constable
Username: Dark_intent
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
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Folks
Pain in the butt I know, but despite Rob's excellent research and map work, I'm still not happy on the Swallow Gardens location. There's always one pedant...
What we have learned is that where everyone including Philip Sugden(but excepting Rob) thought Swallow Gardens to be, was in fact Abel Buildings (a new name). Abel Buildings is of interest because I think it shares some features of Swallow Gardens and certainly has an unnerving atmosphere. We can get a feel for the sort of venue in which Frances Coles was murdered from Abel Buildings and in fact much more so than from Swallow Gardens which is now quite different to how it was in 1891.
Swallow Gardens itself is now part of a lock-up but I'll bet the owner has no idea of its unpleasant past. Might cause the odd shiver late at night!
What we can see from the maps however is that there was something of a warren under the railway around Swallow Gardens including other alleys (Johnson Change and Back Change). This is of interest because it alters the possible escape routes for the murderer of Frances Coles.
I am also unsure about the contemporary reports. In one I read that Constable Thompson heard footsteps disappearing down Chamber Street, before he turned into Swallow Gardens which I believe indicates a robbery gone wrong, with the murderer leaving and not being disturbed by Thompson. The implication of this is that there was no intention to mutilate and clearly this would rule out JtR. I have however seen other reports that seem to indicate Thompson heard steps disappearing into Royal Mint Street which could mean he had disturbed the attacker and which make it possible as a JtR job. Perhaps someone can provide a definitive answer on this one?
The bit where I don't agree with Rob is purely as to which arch was the Chamber Street entrance to Swallow Gardens. This hinges upon alterations to the railway and the arches (which must have been extensive over a period of years) and the demolition of three houses. Rob I know believes it was the end arch and whilst this isn't a vital point it would be nice to clear it up conclusively.
I may post another map if I can take this further.
D_I
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Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 8:20 pm: |
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Hi D_I : Oh my God, what has begun here! I'm surprised no one has picked up on this before as there have clearly been 2 factions expressing a belief as to the location of Swallow Gardens.
I e-mailed The Great Mr Evans last night and said I think Swallow Gardens has become more a state of mind than an actual physical place!
I wonder if we shall ever get to the bottom of it?
I think it is Sugden who says the feet were going to the far end of Chamber Street. Whilst he has the wrong photo (we have now established with some disdain), I would certainly believe him on the location of the footsteps. Maybe, if the arch was right at the end of Chamber Street as it appears to be, those feet could have been going from Chamber Street, down TO Royal Mint Street. If THAT is found to be the case, then he clearly would have run to the right when he got to the street, as running left would bring him to the other end of Swallow Gardens. A lot of hypothosising here.
Would it be fair to say Rob has the correct location but we don't know if the arches that are there today are the actual arches from 1891? They are, after all, at the point where the railway lines divide and it does all get a bit messy architecturally!
Your view of the owner maybe not knowing is an interesting one. It is quite tempting to leave a note at the lock-up with contact details! VERY unlikely it would elicit a reply, but imagine if the owner DID allow someone in there to take photos! Well, I'd do it!
Glenn : I must say, I do like your replies! I'm afraid I think that couple were just mad Americans (no libel intended here - just I assure you from my tour guiding that 90% of all the crazy/crazed people on my walks are American - not a negative point, by the way; they make my job more fun!)
In regards to wanting to do my walk; I am very flattered but it is always a worry when a Ripperologist wants to do my tour; I have heard pretty much all the other guides I pass make mistakes (some of them HUGE) and it terrifies me that one day someone might CORRECT me! I do have to simplify some bits as it gets too detailed and confusing (the whole DRIVE of a site such as this, of course) so the entire Berner Street business and witnesses basically becomes the man assaulting Liz Stride turning on Schwartz when he tries to intervene, so he runs off. Too difficult on the casual tourist to tell them the proper version! I also discuss Pizer and I've heard various accounts of his culpability as a criminal (not as JTR, obviously), and I'd like to know if folk DID know him as Leather Apron and the tales of assault on a work rival in 1887 and the possible assault on a prostitute in mid August 1888 are real - that's what I tell folks, but I don't KNOW for a fact if that's right. Fido claims it's wrong but I'm sure I read it as true somewhere reliable.
Now... Gunthorpe Street...
As far as I know, all the setts (cobbles are the round pebbles, setts are the brick-like stones) in Gunthorpe Street are genuine. They run, unbroken, throughout the whole street. It is only the top half of the street that has been rebuilt, including - sadly - the great George Yard Buildings, of course. I know the building with several gables you see on the right on the famous Stewart Evans 1967 photo of the whole street was used as a cloth dyeing factory at the time. It's still there now. The house opposite is original too (some STUPID guides tell their audiences that is the actual George Yard Buildings!). On the left after this large house is a walled yard (as in the English sense of 'yard') but the 1894 area map shows houses being there, then it all gets modern and ruins it! Standing in the dark in the arch at the end of Gunthorpe Street is the most dramatic part of the evening for my group, as they have been walking down Aldgate and Whitechapel High Streets, seeing modern buildings with lots of speeding traffic then suddenly - they look beyond me into the dark of Jack's London...
By the time we reach Wentworth Street, with solitary drunks staggering around, market traders stalls standing forlorn, no sound except for the wind rustling rubbish across the street, they wonder where the Hell they are and what they're doing! Hee hee hee. I'm a rotter. |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 401
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
|
Hi Phillip, Dark Intent
Phillip is correct about the architectural changes, I overlaid the section from a 1894 map (in red) with the 1873 one and as you can see the arches have been extended quite a few feet northward and stop at where the houses would have begun.
As you can see it does explain why the arch looks different today then when it did back then. I wonder if the actual brickwork surrounding the entrance (since it is set back a bit now) is the same as it was back then.
I wouldn't worry to much about Back Change and Johnson Change as they were certainly gone by 1891 and the area covered by the Midland Railway Goods Depot.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2748
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 8:30 pm: |
|
Philip,
Thanks for appreciating my replies.
Indeed. Gunthorpe Street is an amazing experience and it really takes you one hundreds years back. It wasn't included on the Ripper walk I attended, but I managed to find it myself (which was rather easy) on my own personal expedition, and although it was daytime, I found it to be very dark and atmospheric.
Apart from the sign on the wall outside about George Chapman, the pub White Hart also has a sign inside the pub, stating that "the Ripper victim Martha Turner drank her last pint here before she met her death the same night" (not a totally accurate reproduced quote, though) -- a statement that may be a slight bending of the truth, since we simply can't know that.
They have excellent Guinness, though.
Yes, you're probably right -- Ripperologists must be a complete pest to have in a group (although I hardly can consider myself a Ripperologist), and for the very reasons you mention. Personally, I think Ripper walks are an excellent starting point if you as a foreigner or first-timer wants to get a brief over-all view of the relevant areas, because it makes it a hell lot easier when you're going sight-seeing on your own with a map, as I did the next day.
Thanks for the info about the cobble-stones in Gunthorpe Street.
Looking forward to see that photo of the stairs.
All the best
G, Sweden
(Message edited by Glenna on January 08, 2005)
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971
|
Philip Hutchinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
Gentlemen, we are geniuses, or should that be geniii? Do you think this is the first time Ripperologists have done this research and found out such details about Swallows Gardens in relation to its current appearence? I know in the scheme of the world it is a small victory, but I for one am quite pleased about this new discovery! |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 683
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 7:37 pm: |
|
Lord! Last post on this thread was before I was registered!!! How time flies.
Well, folkies, I have some nice surprises for you.
During our walk round some of the sites today (Rob Clack, Christian Jaud and I) we went to the arch and cheekily lifted up the letterbox and found that it was an open one (no flap or bristles inside) and with my digital camera I here present... possibly for the first time ever... the actual murder site of Frances Coles!
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
|
Robert C, Phillip H and whoever
Great work, wow , The talent on this board never ceases to amaze me. You've really shed some light on this murder of Frances Coles.
Super job
PS that truck makes me hungry for english style fish & chips. Yummy!!
regards
Julie
|
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
|
Contemporary engraving of Swallow Gardens ...
 |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 724
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
|
Nice find, David.
It can't be accurate though - there's no fish van in there.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 123
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
|
Philip,
Here is the fish van ...
 |
George Hutchinson
Chief Inspector
Username: Philip
Post Number: 725
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Ah, a time of such austerity and shortages, David.
PHILIP
Tour guides do it loudly in front of a crowd!
|
|
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