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Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 114
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 6:03 pm: |       |
Hi all
I have been a bit puzzled as to the actual location of Swallow Gardens. I have seen two different maps in Ripper books, both giving different locations. And the photos I have seen don't seem to correspond with the contemporary illustrations. I have managed to find a couple of maps from the same period, and after studying the maps and walking back and forth between Chamber Street and Royal Mint Street,I have managed to pin-point the actual location.
The map below is part of the 1894 Ordnance Survey map for Whitechapel. The red area is the actual location of Swallow Gardens, the blue area is the alley that is often mistaking for Swallow Gardens, I haven't been able to find out it's name as the map I consulted was a reproduction on a much smaller scale and the name is indecipherable but it begins with 'A'
This is the view from Royal Mint Street (at the junction with Cartwright Street. Swallow Gardens is the middle arch.
This is a close-up from Chamber Street
A wider view from Chamber Street
This is a view from Chamber Street from the Mansell Street end.
And these are the railway arches on the Royal Mint Street side, again from Mansell Street.
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 184
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 6:09 pm: | |
Splendid, Robert
For those of us who don't have the possibility to walk the streets of London ourselves, posts like these are an absolute gold-mine. Very interesting pictures and information.
Quite a dull and depressive environment, wouldn't you say?
I would also say that I am glad that poor Francis Coles finally got a post on her message thread -- I think she's worth that much, at least.
Thanks for the pictures, Robert.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 115
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 6:35 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
Thanks for the kind words.
The Chamber Street side of Swallow Gardens is one of those places with a sense of doom and gloom about it. When I first visited the Street I didn't know the actual location of Swallow Gardens, but as I walked near the scene, I had this feeling of dread. There was definitely a weird atmosphere.
As for Francis Coles, I feel she is the most tragic of the alleged victims, certainly one of the most attractive. It's terrible her life was ended, in the way it did at so young an age.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 185
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 8:24 pm: | |
Hi Rob,
It doesen't say, but I assume that you have taken the photos yourself during your walks? Yes, I understand what you say about the feelings about the place. I had the same experience when I walked the streets and locations -- especially the murder sites -- in my town during research for my book. So I can relate very much indeed. Quite interesting that the location and arches are still there; must have been a thrill (unfortunately I was not so lucky in my swedish case; my location is now a totally built area, in 1908 it was a desolate, open field).
We better be greatful over the fact that not all sites in London were demolished during the war and the "sanitation" periods of the 1970's. Still, Swallow Gardens seem to have a "sense of doom" over it indeed. Hopefully it's still there when I pop over to London later in the autumn (it will be my debut!), if my financial situation allows it.
Yes, I agree with you about Frances Coles; there is something about her that makes me particulary sad. And to make matters worse, she also looks very much alike a friend of mine!
How about the possibilities of her being a Ripper victim, then, Robert? I for my part am not really sure, but I do have some doubts (in any case, that doesen't make her death less tragic, though). What are your views on this matter?
Thanks again for your contribution, Rob. Posts connected to the local history and geography are always interesting, and you're naturally welcome with more of this sort.
All the best 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 186
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 8:34 pm: | |
P.S.
Rob, nice photo on your profile page. I see you're learning your son (?) fine ol' traditional values there... 
I bet he enjoyed the situation.
Is that at Madame Tussauds, by the way?
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 117
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 3:48 am: | |
Hi Glenn
The first four photos I took on 31st August 2003. And the last one the week before on the 24th August.
The railway tracks above the arches are still in use as the Docklands Light Railways uses them. The only major difference to the arch itself is that one end has been bricked up, and a large metal door has been put on the Chamber Street side.
The only places that seem to survive from the period are usually buildings that are on the main roads like Whitechapel Road, Commercial Street. And places of historical interests like Fournier Street. I suppose the railway arches survive as there is a constant need for the railway lines.
I don't think Frances Coles was a victim of Jack. The throat wound was quite different. I believe, and what springs to mind about it, was that it was described as a sawing motion. There dosen't seem to be any doubt that Cole's murderer was disturbed, so we don't know if he intended to mutilate her or not. I think the police may have had there man in Thomas Saddler. The policeman who found her had a bit of a tragic life afterwards. Its was P.C. Thompsons first night on patrol by himself and as Francis was still alive when he found her he couldn't go after the man he heard in the distance. He was stabbed to death in a street brawl about ten years later.
Thats my nephew in the photo, and it was taken about 4 years ago at the London Dungeon. I would only recomend the 'Jack the Ripper experience' for tourists, and not serious researchers as the are a few errors, and the murder site recreations are completely wrong.
All the best
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 187
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 6:16 am: | |
Hi Rob,
Well, I suppose we should be thankful for that the railway arches are still in use, then. As far as I know the other murder sites are more or less destroyed or changed beyond recognition (I've studied the Victorian London section her on the website, with the photos). The terrible modern development buildings on former Miller's Court is a grisly sight, and the area seem totally unrecognizable. Maybe only Berner Street (Fournier Street) still has a bit of its old atmosphere left, even though Dutfield's Yard doesen't exist. I heard through the grapevine that Londoners in general isn't that keen on preserving the Ripper heritage and that the events doesn't have that kind of cultural status as one might think.
I've even heard rumours about the Ten Bells being turned into a wine-bar and that the Ripper objects have been thrown out. Do you know if that is the case? Would be my usual luck, now that I've finally decided to see London...
I see that we share the same views on Frances Coles and her odds for being a Ripper victim. I agree that her murderer could have been interrupted (the running footsteps Thompson heard could indicate that), so if the attack was supposed to go any further we'll never know. For those who claim that she's a Ripper victim, I find a number of things troublesome, but I must admit that these are based on my assumption that the Ripper killings stopped in 1888. Coles was murdered in 1891 and the Ripper activity in the years between quite low (as well as the years after) compared to the rapid streams of attacks during the latter half of 1888. However Sadler is our man here or not, I dare not say, but if it wasn't him, she most surely fell victim of a Ripper copy-cat killer, as well as a few others. Not a pleasant way to go for a young woman nevertheless, and not a very nice place to die in either.
Ah, the London Dungeons, that was a London tourist sight I haven't heard of. Well, I'll won't be able to stay more than a few days so I probably won't find the time to see it anyway.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Christian Jaud
Sergeant
Username: Chrisjd
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 11:49 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
there's a school yard now where Dutfields yard was, and the whole side of Berner (Henrique) str. changed a lot.
regards
Christian
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Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 140
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
An overlooked site is 29 Hanbury Street. Yes, a brewery now occupies that addres -- and most of that side of the street. But if you stand where no. 29 was located - across from present nos. 28 and 30 - and look across the street, much of the old flavor is still there. And I still think Mitre Square, in spite of its contemporary buildings, retains a bit of the atmosphere.
Thanks do much for the photos, Robert!
Andy
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 190
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 2:08 pm: | |
Hi Christian,
Yes, that's possible. I've only seen the modern Fournier Street on television documentaries, and besides the shcool and some other building I felt there still was a bit authentic feel about it, but I won't say anything until I've been there myself. Thanks for the post, Christian.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 191
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 2:14 pm: | |
Hi Andy,
Well I did think about Hanbury Street, but I actually didn't know that the street in question had some of it's old qualities left, that was news to me. Great!
As far as Mitre Square is concerned, i don't know how I'll feel when I get there, but I do think the old atmosphere seem far away, Andy. Altough! I've noticed that the geography of the place is the same -- and that the corner still can be recogniced even though the buildings are different. I've also read that the old cobble-stones on the street are still there.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 700
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 2:52 pm: | |
Hi all
While we're on the subject of atmosphere, there's something I've been meaning to ask and this seems as good a time as any to do it : anyone heard any Ripper ghost stories? Maybe I've misse4 them, but there don't seem to be many. I think I remember once reading that Chapman's ghost is supposed to appear occasionally. But I would have thought there'd have been lots of ghost legends - particularly concerning 13 room, until it was demolished.
I don't believe in ghosts myself, but I like reading ghost stories.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 3:29 pm: | |
Hi all
Glenn, Fournier Street is one of my favorite areas of the east end. It has 'The Ten Bells' on it's corner at the junction with Commercial Street, all the buildings are the same as they were in Jacks time, and there are similar streets running of Fournier Street which are practically unchanged as well. Fournier Streets historical importance is the lovely architecture used on the door frames surrounding the entrances. Huguenot I believe.
Andrew was right about the south side of Hanbury Street, the buildings are practically unchanged.
The Ten Bells has changed and all the Ripper items have gone. Christian posted a picture of the inside on the boards a couple of weeks back, which he took on a recent trip. When you come to London I would recommend a trip around that area and the alleys between Crispen Street where the Night Refuge is and Bishopsgate.
Mitre Square is cobbled, I am not sure if they are the original cobbles though. It does not have any victorian atmosphere left in the place.
I think you will find that a lot of people who live in the East End itself aren't that keen on there Ripper culture due to all the guided walks that plague the area. I have been on a couple, one I knew more than he did! I suppose they are open to abuse from people wanting to make a quick buck.
Anyway I can't leave this post without saying a word about France's murder. I was re-reading some of the reports into her death and it appears to mean that her murderer may not have been disturbed, as (If my reading of the reports is right)he came out of Swallow Gardens on the Chamber Street side a few seconds before P.C. Thompson turned into Swallow Gardens from Chamber Street. If the murderer of Francis, heard P.C. Thompsons footsteps he would have headed towards Royal Mint Street. Just a passing thought but he may only have meant to cut her throat. Pretty savage cut though.
All the best
Rob
|
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 119
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Peter Underwoods book 'Jack the Ripper one hundred years of mystery' devotes a chapter to ghostly going ons. My favorite is the woman lying in the gutter in Bucks Row emitting a ghostly light.
I'll tell you a true story that happened to me about fifteen years ago:
I was walking along the north side of Durward Street. I was with my sister, and as we were nearly opposite the Board School, I started getting my camera ready, I heard a couple behind me talking, I couldn't make out what they were saying but as I was slowing down getting my camera ready I thought I would stand aside and let them past. As I moved aside and looked behind me. I saw that the road was empty and the voices had stopped. I didn't mention anything to my sister.
Sweet dreams
Rob  |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 701
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
Hi Rob
Thanks for the Peter Underwood info. And thanks for the story!
You're not tr-tr-trying to sc-sc-scare me, are you?
Robert (looking anxiously around) |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 120
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 5:08 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Careful, you are starting to sound like Joseph Barnett(he gets everywhere).
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 703
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
Hi Rob
That's why I'm looking anxiously around - to see if Leanne and Richard are coming to get me.
It's no fun being clubbed by a boomerang 39 times!
Robert |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 122
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 6:14 pm: | |
Hi Robert
Wheres 'Skippy' when you need him?
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 193
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 6:53 pm: | |
Hi Rob and Robert,
Rob!
Interesting about Fournier Street, that'll be a real treat for me, then, as well. Thanks for the info on that and for the tips. Too bad about Ten Bells, though; I've looked at the message thread you mention, with the photo from inside, and it looked cosy indeed, but you're right -- I didn't see any Ripper items.
Yes, I've heard about the irritated response from the habitants in East End regarding the Ripper walks. I can partly understand them.
Regarding the "interruption" in connection with Coles' murder, I for my part know too little of this, I'm afraid -- I haven't had enough time yet to study it more carefully. I could be wrong, but I vagely remember (and I could have misread this information) that Thompson heard footsteps running away. What this mean, considering the local geography, you are probably in a more suitable position than I am to sort that out. I do believe, like you, that the murderer just as well "only" meant to slit the poor woman's throat. Was there, by the way, any indications on strangulation?
Robert!
"That's why I'm looking anxiously around - to see if Leanne and Richard are coming to get me."
That was indeed the scariest scenario of all, Robert.
Joking aside, I understand why you ask, Robert, since paranormal experiences actually are quite common in relation to violent deaths, and particulary in connection with murders.
Now, I happen to believe in ghosts and the paranormal, simply because I've been a witness to such occurences a number of times.
So to add to your library of ghost stories, I can tell my latest experience, which occured when I investigated the murder case mentioned above, a young prostitute found strangled and with her clothes ripped to pieces on a field just outside the city boundary in 1908 -- today this area is part of the city centre and I live only a two minute walk away (I can see the site from my window).
I don't know if anybody can relate to these emotions, but when you dig into a person's past and personal history, one can easily get obsessed, especially if it's a young woman with a tragic and mysterious fate. Anyway, I was in a critical stage of my research and came home after a long day at the archive, discourage over the fact that I had failed find a photograph of her. I lay on the bed for a rest in the evening (not asleep, though) when suddendly the door bell rang with the worst kind of frenzy I've ever experienced (I live on the fourth floor in an apartment building). I got up, and peeked through the "eye" on the door, and saw the dark figure of a woman with a hat looking very much like the ones that were used during the turn of the century. I didn't make the connection at first, I just simply thought it was neighbour in a jam or something, so I opened immediately -- only to find that there was nobody there! And I also discovered that, although it was a real summer's heat outside, it was freezing cold. There was no way a person could have had the time to disappear, I heard no steps whatsoever, and the elevator wasn't running. I looked over the stairs and saw or heard noone. I went back inside and closed the apartment door in a hurry! Now, I just want to add, that I wasn't victim of my imagination here; the female figure was crystal clear and not blurry at all, there just weren't any facial features. And I wasn't too tired or in a confused state!
This is just one of the incidents that have happened to me since I started to dig into the case. This was a year ago, before my investigation was finished and before the book was out, so now it has been more quiet (I've had other experiences as well during this period, but I don't want to disturb your sleep any further...). But today I regret somehow that I got scared, which is not like me, since I find these kind of phenomenon quite natural. But I was simply caught off guard.
More sweet dreams, Robert. 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 704
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 8:25 am: | |
Hi Glenn
Thanks for that story. As I say, I don't believe in these things myself, though I try to keep an open mind on the subject. And I do like reading ghost stories, whether fictional or of the "strange but true" variety.
Your experience differed from Rob's, in that it didn't occur on the murder site. According to one theory, ghosts are just replays of past events - they're unaware of us, and simply re-enact something that the person used to do while alive. Hence some ghosts glide over the ground, and it turns out the ground has since been lowered a couple of feet. Or they walk through walls, and it turns out there used to be a doorway there.
But your ghost was obviously aware of you, since she rang your doorbell - almost as if she was trying to give you a message, e.g. keep looking for the photo.
Very interesting.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 196
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
Hi Robert,
Well, one thing with paranormal experiences one must accept, is that those who don't believe in them can never be persuaded to do so -- until they've had experiences of their own. Because that is usually what it takes. If you've never experienced it yourself, then it's totally natural to be sceptical about it and noone can blame you for it. I must add, though, that I myself am a very critical and quite rational person, and during my first encounters I really did try to find "natural explanations". I've given up on that now, and accepted its existence. It's great that you're trying to keep an open mind, though -- that is more than most people are willing to do.
Yes, I also got the impression that I got some sort of message or greeting; those who deal with the paranormal says that this is quite common, that you can get a connection with that person's spirit if you get "close" enough -- although not all people are receptive to it and therefore never experience it. To me these things are no longer a matter of mystery or the supernaural; I find these occurences as natural as everything else in daily life.
One theory, similar to the one you refer to (mostly discussed by scientists in Scotland and England), is the "Stone Tape Theory", which means that an event involving violence or with a strong emotional content, is "recorded" by the materia on the place and thereafter is being played up like a video tape. This theory, as well as similar ones, are higly debated, though, and most people raise question marks regarding it. However, the most important scientific research on the field are done in Scotland and England and the most accepted one is that "ghosts" (a word highly disliked by claivoyant people and the scientists on the subject) simply are people who've never managed to get across to the "other side" and are stuck in "no man's land". With that being said, one shouldn't totally disregard the possibilty of the other theories; some encounters are very similar to the theory you describe, but there are also numerous encounters where the "ghost" has been in personal contact with the witness, as in my case.
In such cases, you don't have to be on the exact same spot as where the incident took place -- this form of contact is beyond geography.
With my experiences, it wouldn't surprise me if I came across Frances Coles as well on a walk across Swallow Garden's (or any of the others -- in that case, hopefully not in their mutilated state...  ); I'm almost getting used to it, now.
How do you feel about poor Frances Coles, Robert? Is she a Ripper victim or not? You've probably read Clack's and my thoughts upon it ... would be interesting to hear your views as well.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 705
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
I doubt if Frances was a Ripper victim, and I tend to exonerate Sadler from her murder too.
He tried to account for his time by telling the police that he left her at the lodging house, then came upon a policeman who searched him and found no knife, and who then helped him to the hospital where he stayed the rest of the night.
I think there must have been something uncorroborated or unverified about this story, some window of time that couldn't be accounted for, for the police to have taken him so seriously as a suspect. Sadler was drunk and didn't have a firm idea where he'd been, or when.
But to kill Coles he had to find her. The only thing I can think of, is that he waited outside the lodging house for her to come out, followed her till she came to a quiet spot (perhaps she was with a customer, in which case he'd have waited for the customer to leave) - and then cut her throat in rage at having lost his money. As far as I can make out, he'd have had to follow her for some time.
That doesn't seem in keeping with Sadler's character. As the evidence of his wife and the lodger Moffatt suggests, not to mention the fight at the docks, Sadler was reckless and violent when in drink - not sneaky and patient.
Interesting, though, that he once used to live in Buck's Row.
Robert
|
Monique Nightingale
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 3:45 am: | |
Hello Robert,
I must first say that your pictures are cause for great jealousy. One could only hope to visit these scenes and catch a bit of the atmosphere, but you managed to put the old saying (a pictures worth a thousand words)to good use. How long did it take you to find the actual scene? How long have you been searching?
Thanks again for the photographs. Once again, I am impressed...
|
Bernard Doherty
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 11:12 am: | |
In regards to Robert Clack's comments about P.C. Thompson, the following link will bring you to the "Tower Hamlets Cemetery Park: History Walk":
http://www.towerhamletscemetery.org/history/walk_withpics.shtml
Item 9 on the page makes reference to P.C. Thompson's burial site. He is buried next to two fellow officers who were killed in the line of duty over a sixteen year period. They are referred to as the The Leman Street Policemen. A photo shows a headstone but I cannot tell to which of the officers it belongs. There are two further references to the JTR case; item 23 shows Dr Rees Ralph Llewellyn's family vault and notes he was called to Polly Nichols' murder site. Item 2 refers to a victim of the Princess Alice wreck, a tragedy to which Elizabeth Stride claimed a (most likely spurious)connection.
The site was originally posted on another thread by the excellent researcher Chris George.
Regards,
Bernie
|
Frank
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 7:16 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
This is what Allan Stone said on Aug. 18 about the Ten Bells on one of the threads:
"Ten Bells-Visited said Pub on Saturday August 16th at approx 19.30. Lots of changes! It's open and busy. Furniture is weathered. Clientele quite trendy. One real ale available-(bombardier). There is a "disco/ DJ" every night now. All references to JTR have gone. All the photos etc missing. The old board that listed the '6' victims is absent, in that corner is the DJ booth. Note on front door now asks for notification of Ripper visits over 10 people. Sad about the changes but the pub looks like staying open now. This wasn't always the case."
So Glenn, I guess it's your usual luck...
By the way, you made a slip of the penn (finger). Starting to know you a little, I think you know where Fournier Street is and that you just made the slip in haste  , but in case you didn't: Berner Street is now called Henriques Street. Fournier Street is found between Christ Church and the Ten Bells Pub, running eastwards off Commercial Street.
Cheers,
Frank  |
|
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