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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 706
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:51 pm: |       |
By the way, Glenn, I don't know whether you have the Sourcebook, but if you have, and since you're into art, what do you think of the sketch of Sadler and Coles in the lodging house, and Sadler in the dock? They look to me slightly better than the normal run of JTR illustrations.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 197
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 4:36 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
I agree with you on both Coles and Sadler -- your thoughts summon up quite well with my line of thinking here.
Regarding the illustration of Sadler and Coles together, do you mean the one that can be seen on this website as well -- on the Frances Coles victim page? I'm afraid I don't have the Sourcebook (or Companion) yet -- I have ordered it but unfortunately it takes a lot of time since it has to be shipped from USA.
The scetch on the website doesen't indicate that it's in a lodging house, so it's possible I haven't seen it. The scetch I refer to is also better than most of them, I think. But I don't think neither of these "artist" seem to be any masters as far as portraits are concerned...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 707
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 5:27 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
It's the left hand one on the Casebook - the one of Sadler. Sourcebook has that one, also one of the two of them in the doss house.
Of course, they're not great sketches, but better than some I've seen. I saw one where Mary Kelly looked like a member of the royal family!
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 198
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 8:12 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
"It's the left hand one on the Casebook - the one of Sadler."
I must be incredibly stupid, or just tired, but forgive me, Robert, I can't seem to find it or quite understand what you mean. The only picture of Sadler I've seen here on the Casebook is the scetch on Coles' page with them both together -- is there another one? I think Sadler's portrayal on this "double" picture is quite good, though (even though I don't have anything to compare it with). I'm not so sure about Frances, though...
"I saw one where Mary Kelly looked like a member of the royal family!"
Not to mention the portrait from Illustrated Police News of Elisabeth Stride. What a terrible scetch! Look at her photo -- there is no similarity whatsoever, he also managed to miss out on Stride's long hair completely! And, in my view, the photo reveals a woman with quite fine features (considering her age and living circumstances), in the scetch she almost have male, androgyne look look. I think that scetch -- and maybe some of the others -- are done by the "artist" after the autopsies or maybe even done hastly on the crime scenes. As far as I can see most of them looks like being made by the hand of the same artist, and I would characterize him as a less gifted amateur, that indeed have a fair and acceptable knowledge of anathomy and drawing in general, but has drawn the women after the same model base (look at their hair does), and who unfortunately is not that perceptive to their individual features or personalities.
What picture of Mary Kelly do you refer to? There is a well known drawing of her standing by the door in Miller's Court, and although I'm not certain about the clothes (and apart from the fact that we don't really know what she looked like) I think that one is quite acceptable (although it probably is idealized to a certain degree).
By the way, talking of portraits: in Douglas' and Olshaker's book The Cases That Haunts Us there is a map over East End, with portrait scetches placed on each murder site. Most of them we've seen before and it wouldn't suprise me if they are all taken from Illustrated Police News, but among those there are a portrait of Mary Kelly -- where she's called "Black Mary" -- that I've actually never seen before. Quite an interesting picture -- it would be equally interesting to know how much it corresponds with her real features. It really bugs me we don't have a photograph of her.
The thing that early on made me interested in Frances Coles is that the photo of her is better than average in quality, and since she's not mutilated or photographed from a difficult angle (as Polly Nichols for example) we for once get a clear picture of her looks.
As an old portrait painter myself, I would also give almost anything to see what Eddowes really looked like as well; under that dreadful details of mutilations and stitches, I can actually see a woman with almost noble features and a charisma that intrigues me a bit.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 708
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
Hi Glenn
The item on Casebook is two sketches juxtaposed - one of Coles, the other of Sadler as he is supposed to have looked in the dock. The Sourcebook shows each one separately, plus a sketch of Sadler and Coles together in the doss house, with Coles slumped forward, head on table.
I agree the Stride drawing is awful. If anything, it reminds me of Peter Wyngaarde when he starred as Jason King!
The Kelly sketch I meant is in Evans and Gainey's book. Kelly has her nose in the air, looking very haughty. Beside her walks the toff, while Hutchinson watches, complete with suit, tie and waistcoat.
I think Paul Harrison once said that somewhere in Scotland Yard is a photo showing Kelly, Barnett and one of Barnett's brothers....also (dare I say it?) a pipe! But nothing seems to have come of it.
Re Eddowes, if you go to "books, films and other media - non fiction" and click on "Catherine Eddowes Jack the Ripper victim" you can see some photos of Kate's descendants, published by Neal Shelden.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 315
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:05 am: | |
Hi Glenn, Rob, Robert, All,
A few years back, while hoovering one afternoon, I suddenly felt a firm hand grasp my shoulder. Ticking hubby off for trying to give me a heart attack by taking advantage of the fact that I hadn't heard him come in from work and wouldn't be expecting him home yet, I turned the hoover off and turned round and nearly did have a heart attack because no one was there! Hubby returned later at his normal time and told me I must have been imagining things.
I can't explain it because I can still remember that touch as if it were yesterday. The odd thing is, I had spent that morning looking at my family tree, as researched and drawn up by my father, and had been wondering about one particular ancestor who had lived fairly close to where we now lived, but whose details were sketchy, simply being described as 'an architect from Coulsdon'....
Getting back to the victims of the Whitechapel Murders, I feel a special closeness to Frances Coles, especially when I attend meetings of the Cloak & Dagger Club in the City Darts Pub, formerly The Princess Alice where Frances was picked up by Thomas Sadler. Several other regular club members tell me they have experienced a similar feeling of 'coming home' and being in familar surroundings, whatever their real roots happen to be, whenever they walk up Commercial Street, even for the first time. It may be nothing more than a natural extension of whatever compels like-minded people to become enthusiasts and students of this case that we feel haunts us. But there are some odd coincidences that only emerge after one is already hooked.
For example, I was born on February 13, the day Frances Coles was murdered. And Carrotty Nell, according to The JtR A-Z, had another alias - Frances Hawkins. Hawkins is also my maiden name....
What was that you said, Glenn, about not being surprised if you came across Frances on your travels in ripperland?
Love,
Carrotty Caz
|
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 201
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:44 am: | |
Hi Robert,
Thank you for the information. My brain worked better this time. The "doss house" picture I apparently haven't seen, so I better check that out. Sounds interesting. I don't think I've seen the Kelly scetch you refer to either. Always interesting with new items to discover..
"If anything, it reminds me of Peter Wyngaarde when he starred as Jason King!" 
"I think Paul Harrison once said that somewhere in Scotland Yard is a photo showing Kelly, Barnett and one of Barnett's brothers....also (dare I say it?) a pipe! But nothing seems to have come of it."
My God! That would be a thrill to see. A bit strange though that none of the experienced researchers of the case, like Stewart Evans or Paul Begg, has come across it. I wonder if the story could be a hoax or misunderstanding ...?
Yes, I've seen the photos on the message threads you mention, and -- like some others -- I also saw the likeness and features of Eddowes in her decentants. Very interesting.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 202
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 11:00 am: | |
Hi Caz,
Thank you for the story. The thing you experienced, that you felt someone grabbing your arm (often it's done so hard that one feels pain) is a very common paranormal occurence and a quite a common form of contact. I also think it's connection with your studies of the family tree is very interesting.
Regarding your feelings of closeness with Coles, you are right that when one is involved in a case -- or just a hobby that totally occupies your mind -- it can be hard to know what´s imagination and "ghosts" of the mind and what's real experiences of paranormal. One must be critical, of course -- the human mind is a complex thing -- but one should at the same time try to keep an open mind. I think your connection with both name and the date is interesting indications, although it could naturally be a coincidence.
Now, I don't want to be known here as the spiritist and ghost hunter of the board, because I know this subject is controversial and I don't want to put people off. But a suggestion, Caz... (in relation to your feelings of connection with Coles) have you tried "recession hypnosis"? It's used to study a persons links to the people and identities in earlier lives.
All the best, Carrotty Caz 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 203
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 11:15 am: | |
Hi Frank,
Yes, it's my ususal luck. 
Well, I think I'll pay it a visit anyway. 
(Wow, today it's clip art day!)
Yes, I immediately after sending the post saw the "slip", but then I forgot to change it -- of course it's Henriques Street now. Been a bit occupied with work lately and my brain feels like an old grape fruit.
I still enjoyed Robert Clack's tips about Fournier Street, though, so didn't find it necessary to make a remark about it or change anything.
Cheers, mate 
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 711
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 5:04 pm: | |
Hi Caz
Thanks for that story. That's three people on this thread who've had odd experiences, plus I seem to remember Paul Gibson saying that he felt weird while visiting the Stride site. And I bet there are other people who maybe don't feel they can come forward.
I believe that one side of my family has connections to the east end. I myself do have a strange yearning about the Ripper area - a bit like my desire to revisit the first house I lived in, or to go back and walk round my old school.
I'm definitely missing out on this psychic stuff, though. The only tugging I've felt while Hoovering, is the tugging of the infernal wire as it insists on twining itself round any and every object of furniture that it can. If you suddenly read "Man found strangled by Hoover cord" you will know that the Hoover from Hell was indeed possessed.
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 211
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 9:12 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Well, there's another good reason for staying away from the hoover -- hoovering is not my favourite occupation, it has the bottom placing along with ironing. But it has to be done, unfortunately... Yes, it surely is a machine from hell (possessed or not), at least it sounds like one...
By the way, Robert, have you ever been to Swallow Gardens yourself? Even if Coles wasn't a Ripper victim, I think it's a bit fascinating that the arches are still there. There's definitely a desolate feeling about the place.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Brad McGinnis
Sergeant
Username: Brad
Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 11:22 pm: | |
Hi all!
I read this thread with great interest, especially the wierd ghostly connections. I remember back in Nov. of 1982, and working on my car. It was a custom ordered Camero. I ordered it in May and it arrived in Sept, exactly to my specs. It had a 350 Hi Out put engine and special suspension but with none of the Z28 regalia. Bright red with a T roof. Loved that car. Anyway, in November of '82 I was cleaning and detailing it when I felt a hand on my shoulder.Since I knew I was alone I just shrugged but to my amazement I still felt it. I spun around and there was an apperition! I was dumbfounded! It spoke to me. "I am the ghost of Jacob Marly", it said. Hey, this is November and not yet Thanksgiving, WAY too early for Christmas stuff. I said to him, "What do you want of me?". He held up his clanking chains and shrugged. I sprayed him with WD-40 and he nodded and weakly smiled. "I'll send Tiny Tim soon. His crutch squeaks abit", he said. With that he faded out, leaving me to think, "Why me?" |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 716
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 4:24 am: | |
Hi Glenn, Brad
Glenn, no I haven't visited Swallow Gardens. But when I do, I won't be posting any photos! I'll leave all that to Rob's excellent skills. As a photographer, I've been known to take a picture of the ceiling, my finger, and even my foot.
Brad, thanks for sharing that experience with us. A truly unnerving revelation of the uncanny.
Let me tell you about something that happened to a friend of mine. He was a Rabbi, and he had to go in for a major operation. Well, the operation wasn't going too happily, and he had one of those near death experiences. He found himself walking down a dark tunnel. After a short while, he saw light at the end of it, and as he neared the exit he could make out a beautiful garden - trees, and grass, and flowers. The strange thing is that my friend (I don't want to post his name on the boards - let's just call him 'T') felt a profound sense of inner peace - no fear at all. Anyway, he reached the exit of the tunnel, stuck his head into the warm sunshine.....and was eaten by a ferret.
And that was the end of Rabbi T.
Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 320
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 7:03 am: | |
Hi Glenn,
I don't like the sound of "recession hypnosis" - if someone from the dim and distant past wants to get in touch with me there's little I can do about it. But I won't be going out of my way to get in touch with them. 
Funny thing, spirits from the past. I put my details on that friends reunited website and within 24 hours was contacted by the one person from my schooldays I absolutely didn't want or expect to hear from ever again!
Love,
Caz
|
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 245
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
Rob,
Worked with our Sister team in London last year.
I wont bore you with the details of my work but there were two members of the team called Neil John and Harvey James.
Just thought I'd add something pointless.
Monty
 |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 215
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 5:09 pm: | |
Hi Robert, Caz,
-------------------------
Robert,
"As a photographer, I've been known to take a picture of the ceiling, my finger, and even my foot."
Then we must belong to the same photo club...
Robert, what is a ferret? I can't find it in my dictionary...
Anyway I hope the "ferret" had good digestion.
Strange thing, that about near death experiences, some argues that it is the anaesthetics that plays with your mind, while others claim it to be just what it says it is. I guess we'll never know until it's time...
Caz,
You indicate in your post that there is something sinister or dark about it. There isn't. Anyhow, it's just a tip others have given me as being useful in checking out why one feel a certain connection. I haven't tried it myself, though, but I would if I got the opportunity. But one shouldn't do it one aren't up to it. I know, "recession hypnosis" sounds flimsy and new age, but it's not that mysterious, I think. Seems like a a website could put you more at risk.
I myself am not a new age supporter, though.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Frank van Oploo
Police Constable
Username: Franko
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 5:30 pm: | |
Hej Glenn,
A ferret is something like a weasel or an ermine.
Vi ses, arivederci, hasta la vista, see you, tot ziens!
Frank  |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 721
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
continuing on from Frank - or a polecat. They hunt rabbits and rats. They can give a nasty nip, but you might be surprised to learn that some people here shove them down their trousers.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 722
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 5:53 pm: | |
Monty, did you know that if you take "Juwes" and go A=1, B=2 etc, and add up the letters, you get 78 which is 2x39 for a double event?
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 218
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 7:15 pm: | |
Hej Frank,
Tack ska du ha!
By the way, cute smiley, there. Never seen that one... Ah, there he is!
Hälsningar
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 726
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 7:25 pm: | |
Glenn, if you've got time before you go away, could you type up the ABBA hit of your choice with the lyrics in Swedish, and we can try to guess which song it is!
Robert |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 219
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 10:08 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
Hahahaha..  OK, Gov, could be interesting. The winner will recieve 1.00 swedish crowns ("kronor") -- which is worth practically nothing in USD or GBP -- or a sausage and a fruit beer on the Sherlock Holmes pub. It's an optional choice. The second and third runner-up will share a one-way ticket to north of Sweden and be forced to eat a whole can of fermented Baltic herring (well known for its excellent smell...). Now, don't say that we Swedes aren't generous blokes. 
OK, I'll get right on it as soon as I find the time. I'll have to find one of their early ones from the beginning of the 1970's, since they moved over to sing in english after only a couple of records. But I'll find something out.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 240
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 5:21 am: | |
Hi Robert,
I have just heard the number39 mentioned, I congratulate you, but of course just another coincedence?.?.
Now I know Barnett at least knew his alphabet.
seriously question. Dont you think that is strange?.
Richard. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 246
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 6:37 am: | |
Robert
Uncanny !!
Monty
|
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 728
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
Hi Richard
Are you saying that Barnett did write the graffito, and that he was aiming for the number 78? Or just that the other details about the number 39 are strange?
There are plenty of coincidences, that's for sure. I believe Joe's brother-in-law was called Beer. Kelly was known as Ginger. And in the cupboard there were bottles of.....
Robert
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