Vesica Pisces (Map)

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Vesica Pisces (Map)

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Media: Specific Titles: Other: Vesica Pisces (Map)

Author: Stephen P. Ryder Thursday, 19 November 1998 - 09:17 pm
Ivor Edwards has recently released a new wall map of Whitechapel for purchase, titled "Vesica Pisces: Jack the Ripper's occult plan for the 5 Whitechapel murders." It is an ordinance map of Whitechapel with various occult geometric designs laid over -- according to Edwards, these designs reveal that the murders were planned and executed by Dr. Robert D'Onston Stephenson to coincide with a geometric pattern called "Vesica Pisces." Those interested in occultist/Freemason theories will be interested in this piece. US price is $20, which includes postage and handling. The UK price is �10. plus �2.50 P&H. For map inquiries and sales, e-mail jtrbmr@aol.com or write to: I.Edwards 17 Hazel Avenue Guildford Surrey, GU1 1NJ England The map is very difficult to understand (involving various symbols, the importance of which are not explained in great detail). According to Edwards the map is supposed to be a companion to his upcoming book -- perhaps the book will shed some light on the importance of this map. Recommended only for those interested in Freemasons and/or D'Onston.
Author: Geoffrey Saturday, 21 November 1998 - 07:48 pm
I saw, but did not purchase, the above map at the London Dungeon. It is poorly crafted and I do not recommend it at all. You should be better off with one of the many other maps on the market.
Author: Mike Anstead Friday, 18 December 1998 - 09:54 pm
I recently obtained a copy of the map Ivor Edwards has put together showing the murder sites and the patterns of occult symbols that can be formed from them. The map is excellently done with a legend of the symbols that are formed from the positions of the murder sites. I think that once JTR buffs look at this map they will see that the positions of the murder sites had to be planned in advance. There are too many coincidences between the distances between the murder sites and the patterns they form for this to be a matter of chance. If JTR had simply roamed around Whitechapel and murdered his victims where he found them, the odds are astronomically slim that the murder sites would have formed the geometrical patterns that Ivor has discovered. Readers of "The True Face of JTR" by Melvin Harris will remember that D'Onston was the first to point out the "Calvary Cross" formed by the first four murder sites. I think D'Onston is a very likely suspect and I expect that Ivor's new book will strengthen the case against him even further. I think many people are too quick to dismiss D'Onston as a viable suspect. Many people assume he was a liar and a braggart without actually looking at the facts. However, Melvin Harris confirmed many aspects of the story D'onston told to Vittoria Cremers. For instance D'Onston said there were five JTR murders and it wasn't until the 1950's that five became the generally agreed number of victims. He also described the Ripper's M.O. of killing his victims from behind, which many researchers and theorists believe was the actual way in which the victims were killed. He also told Cremers that JTR was a friend of his who was also a doctor and that he informed the police about his friend. It wasn't until 1974 that it was discovered that D'Onston actually had gone to Scotland Yard and falsely accused Dr. Morgan Davies of being JTR. Many details of D'Onston's life apart from the JTR murders were also confirmed (fought in Italy, shot by a smuggler, etc.). There is a great deal of debate about JTR's medical skill, but many people believe that JTR may have had at least some medical background. D'Onston had a medical degree and had been a field medic when he fought in Italy. Finally, there have been many murders and serial killers linked to the occult (e.g. Richard Ramirez "The Night Stalker"). Do I think there is a 100 percent chance that D'Onston was JTR? Of course not. There are problems and counter-arguments to all theories, that's why it's still a mystery. But when I weigh the pros and cons for D'Onston as a suspect I think there is as much to recommend him as a suspect as any and more than most others. When you get right down to it, what real reason is there to think that Severin Klosowski or Frederick Deeming were JTR? Despite the fact that he is mentioned in the Macnaghten memorandum, research has shown Ostrog to be a weak suspect. Neill Cream's name still comes up, even though it has been proven he was in jail in the U.S. at the time. It has never been proven that he had a double or that he yelled "I am Jack the..." right before he was hung. Joseph Sickert has told at least three different versions of his story to different authors which should be a red flag to everyone that he is making the whole thing up. Yet many people continue to believe in Royal/Freemason conspiracy theories. There is a recent theory about "Alice in Wonderland" author Lewis Carroll being JTR. Seems a little hard to swallow. It doesn't seem to be established fact whether "Dr. Pedachenko" was even a real person, and his supposed motive of murdering slum-dwelling prostitutes on behalf of the Russian secret police to show up Scotland Yard is totally absurd. These are just a few examples of suspects I think are far less likely than D'Onston. Not all the theories are ridiculous however, and there are some other suspects besides D'Onston that I think could have been JTR. However, D'Onston ranks up there with the best of them in terms of actual likelihood of having been JTR. I strongly encourage all JTR fans to keep an open mind about the case, don't be influenced by all the bickering that goes on. Buy a copy of Ivor's excellent map and his new book when it comes out soon and decide for yourselves whether D'Onston may have really been JTR.
Author: Jeff D Saturday, 19 December 1998 - 03:24 pm
Hi Everybody ! I have a great respect for Melvin H's work, and have always kept an open mind on the involvement of D'Onston in the murders. I think though, that D'Onston was more like the character of Robert Lees, as portrayed in the Michael Caine Jack the Ripper TV-movie. He was certainly in the area at the time, and had a great interest in the murders, but other than being a constant pain to the police enquiries, I don't believe he had any real involvement in the murders. (IMO) The fact that D'Onston admits to coming up from behind, and slashing the throat, to me, immediately rules him out as the killer. From scene of crime reports, we can be pretty confident that the murderer initially stood, facing his victim. With her hands occupied in some way (hiking up her skirts ?), the killer then strangled the victim, and with the victim virtually (if not totally) dead, the killer laid her carefully on to the ground, then viciously slashed at the throat, making sure the flow of blood was away from him. If the victim was attacked from behind, which would be a risky approach anyway, as a near miss could result in the victim screaming, there would be an immediate splash of blood. This would apear on the closest wall, just about victims neck height, or if no wall nearby, a great splash all around the pavement. Either way, there would be masses of blood spattered everywhere, from a heart still pumping, of which there was not. Even with the Chapman murder, a slight splash on the adjoining fence, proves that there was just enough back-pressure, from the main (carotid)artery in the neck, to the heart, to cause this slight spurt of blood, while the victim was on the ground. The lack of dents, bruises or bumps on the back of the head prove that the victim was lowered, quite carefully to the ground, before the fatal, vicious throat slash. When the throat was cut, the blood just oozed out onto the ground, mostly being soaked up into the victims' clothing, rather than spurting, proving that the victim was already dead by this time. In Strides' case, we can see that her throat was slashed, while she was standing, and she must have been alive, as it appears she grasped at the wound around her throat, resulting in that hand being covered with blood. Melvin H, (I believe) was the first author to come up with any information, pointing to D'Onstons' involvement, and as I have said, I have a great respect for his work, but as soon as I read the part where he admitted he slashed from behind, I immediately felt that this was not our guy. I will purchase Ivor Edwards book and map. It will take place in my library, of possible suspects, and I do not dismiss out of hand the possibility that D'Onston could be Jack The Ripper. I think however, that he was just a kind of person who took a morbid interest in the murders at the time, while he maintained his fascination in the occult. WIth regard the map, I find it an incredible stretch of the imagination to try and place a victim, on a certain spot, as to draw a great occult symbol, when all the dots are joined up. A symbol, or message left at the murder scene would make a lot more sense. The measurements between the crime scenes, which I have no doubt are genuine, could be just another great coincidence in the mystery. Look hard at anything, from any viewpoint, for long enough, and eventually you will see the thing that you are looking for. D'Onston was there at the time, I have no doubt. He did have a stay in the hospital, which is documented Maybe he could tell us as much, if not more than just about anyone else, what actually went on in Whitechapel that Autumn, but Jack The Ripper, (IMO) he was not. I am not an author, a crime historian, or whatever, just a very interestred amateur, so take my comments as my own opinion only. I believe the discovery of D'Onstons story is an incredible snapshot of events at the time, and his story is interesting in itself. Nuts, he probably was, maybe he even knew the identity of the real JtR, but I'm not convinced he actually was JtR. Cheers All, as ever ! Jeff D
Author: judith stock Sunday, 20 December 1998 - 08:05 am
cheers and happy holidays to all!!! my copy of the Edwards map came right before our move, and i haven't really had an enormous amount of time to look it over. still, i intend to give it a good deal of time and concentration, as one can never know for sure, until one looks. so, bear with Mr Edwards, and don't poo- poo until you have checked his map over-- it appears to worthy of consideration.
Author: judith stock Sunday, 20 December 1998 - 08:06 am
cheers and happy holidays to all!!! my copy of the Edwards map came right before our move, and i haven't really had an enormous amount of time to look it over. still, i intend to give it a good deal of time and concentration, as one can never know for sure, until one looks. so, bear with Mr Edwards, and don't poo- poo until you have checked his map over-- it appears to be worthy of consideration.
Author: Peter Birchwood Sunday, 14 February 1999 - 06:13 pm
Regarding Mike Anstead's posting on the D'Onston board, I think that the good doctor is a valid suspect but the positioning of victims to form a ritual sign is surely unlikely. Not having got Ivor Edward's map or book I can't state whether his theory is likely but based on the comments above I doubt it.
Author: Tezza Tuesday, 01 June 1999 - 02:19 am
D'onston I believe could of been the ripper or even his accomplice.They both could of worked in tandem and both new each others moves.It's an amatuer sleuths theory though!!! P.S.Did you know that Robert D'Onston had an alias or another name.He was also known as Rosyln. Does it mean anything?
Author: Tezza Tuesday, 01 June 1999 - 02:24 am
D'onston I believe could of been the ripper or even his accomplice.They both could of worked in tandem and both new each others moves.It's an amatuer sleuths theory though!!! P.S.Did you know that Robert D'Onston had an alias or another name.He was also known as Rosyln. Does it mean anything?
Author: Wolf Wednesday, 02 June 1999 - 12:06 am
Hey Tezza, D'Onston's real name was Robert Donston Stephenson but he called himself Dr. Roslyn D'Onston. There is no proof that he was a doctor and much like Tumblety, seems to be no more than a charletan who made grandious claims about himself. One of these claims was that he had panned for gold during the California gold rush. If that was true than he must have been eight years old at the time! Another story was that he had been a Major surgeon in Garibaldi's army but he would have been seventeen at the time. The pattern of tall tales that came from D'Onston showed a man who very much wanted to be seen as a dashing hero and adventurer but in reality he was merely a drunken failure who tried to puff up his own ego. Was he the Ripper? no, there is absolutely no evidence other than some stories that Vittoria Cremers had told about him. Her claim was that D'Onston had placed the missing parts of his victims under his ties thus hiding them. How do you walk around with a uteris or kidney under your tie and not have the front of your shirt stained with blood? Wolf.
Author: adam wood Wednesday, 02 June 1999 - 03:11 pm
Hi Wolf With regard to your comment about D'Onston's claims to have served with Garibaldi, I've pasted the text below from Andy Aliffe's Casebook Interview... Adam ====== Much had also been made of Stephenson's medical qualifications. He claimed he fought in the Italian Wars of Independence during the 1860's, working as a battle-field medic.Indeed the census of 1861 shows him as "Lieutenant - Southern Army of Italy - Retired, but how could this be confirmed ? Lesson three - Read around the subject. I got several books from the library about Garabaldi and The Italian Wars, and found in the bibliography of one a reference to another book about the British Volunteers who fought in the battles. This book duly ordered and read, produced a footnote which mentioned a man called Holyoake who helped organise and recruit these men and who had kept all the letters and muster rolls. Wow! what a find, but where were they now ?. A check at the National Register of Archives found an entry for Holyoake and item marked "Muster Rolls", kept at the Bishopgate Institute, by coincidence (yet again) a couple of street away from Mitre Square. A short taxi-ride to the Bishopsgate and with a beating heart I enquired about the material. A flick through the card index found a faded entry and shelf mark for the item. "Good heavens" said the librarian "this hasn't been looked at for over eighty years !". Duly retrieved from a dusty basement, I went straight to S in the alphabetical index, and sure enough Stephenson D'O Robert was entered. I found yet another new address, his height, his fitness and the fact that he lied about his age. More lines of enquiry to take and avenues to research,and so on and so on !!.

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