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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through May 29, 2000
Casebook Message Boards: Police Officials: General Discussion:
Abberline: What did he know?:
Archive through May 29, 2000
Author: Caroline
Saturday, 06 February 1999 - 04:51 am |        | Dear All,
When one of the ‘ripper’ letters gave me evidence for a possible new suspect, on 15th January this year, I had no idea if it would lead anywhere.
I had never heard of him before, which just shows my lack of education, but have since remedied this, and found no end of useful documentation about his life, his work, his family, friends and associates.
I also found strong hints in his work that suggest he may have had a ‘close’ relationship with my suspect for JtR2, who came to me via a separate route, or root, of evidence.
JtR1, however, never refers to JtR2 by his real name. My attempts to link the two from JtR2’s life have left me totally mystified by certain omissions in the reference books, which don’t appear to make any sense, unless JtR2’s ‘associates’ suspected something and tried to cover tracks at the time. I am currently trying to locate the early editions (from 1878-1890) of a certain well-known reference book, which is frequently updated. It will be interesting to see if the entries I was expecting to find were there originally, but omitted when the book was reprinted, either in 1890, 1900 or 1904.
The interesting thing about this specialist encyclopaedia is that the original compiler was a close associate of my JtR1’s boss, and could not have failed to know about one of my JtR2’s close relations!
As I follow my JtR1 around, the coincidences dog me in turn. I am beginning to find ripper links, tenuous ones maybe, turning up unannounced in peculiar places. For example, I find references to his associates visiting Monte Carlo fairly regularly. At the time of writing this, I am looking at a framed photo I took of Little Caz in 1997, standing beside one of the white-uniformed guards at Rainier’s Palace.
Yesterday, browsing through the Abberline section of the excellent JtR A-Z of 1996, I find the good inspector has been there, done that, got the T-shirt, back in the 1890s!
Pages 8 to 9 gave me the information that Abberline was working as a private eye in Monte after retiring from the Met on full pension.
What was he working on there? If he was looking for JtR connections he didn’t let on. And if he was looking and found some, he simply retired to Bournemouth (how frightfully English!), in 1904, and gave the strong impression that his ‘best’ suspect remained Chapman.
He later wrote 12 pages of recollections of Monte Carlo without a single word on JtR. So it all looks like one more weird coincidence and I don’t want to travel the Feldy road thanks!
I would, however, be very interested if anyone can tell me more about Abberline’s 12 pages. Failing that, I’ll just have to wait patiently for my next book to arrive from the States, which may save me having to win the lottery for that trip to New York!
All the best,
Caroline |
Author: Paul Begg
Saturday, 06 February 1999 - 07:03 am | | Hi Caroline
I tracked down Abberline's 'memoirs', which are in fact two stories, perhaps for a series of newspaper articles. The shorter of the two stories concerns Abberline's activities in Monte Carlo and is called "Three successice seasons or twelve months behind the scenes at Monte Carlo."
Basically, loads of bad guys wen to Monte to prey on the rich folk who gambled there and, according to Abberline "The English thieves have the credit there of being the smartest..." At the time a lot of people were being robbed and the Vice Consul compelled the Casino authorities to employ Abberline. He didn't really stand much of a chance on his own, he said, and expected to be supported by five or six other officers. Nevertheless "the news travelled very quickly amongst them that I meant business, and it was astonishing the effect it had in making a clearance."
Superb stuff throughout, but not a dickey about JtR or anything related. Not even in his annotated press cutting book specially compiled for a neighbour and friend. Abberline just doesn't seem to have thought the Ripper was really all that important in his career! |
Author: Caroline
Saturday, 06 February 1999 - 01:02 pm | | Thanks for your help as usual Paul.
What a shame! I thought I had something there.
I'll keep looking at the stronger bits of my evidence and see if I can make something stick.
I don't like theories much, they tend to let one down!
Enjoy the rest of the weekend,
Caroline |
Author: Joseph O'Keefe
Friday, 09 April 1999 - 02:16 pm | | Open question regarding Abberline. What is known about his relationships within the department and the community? Specifically his interaction with the inhabitants of Whitechapel during his investigation.
JPOK |
Author: R. E. Williamson
Friday, 16 July 1999 - 07:18 pm | | I am not surprised the you find little reference to Abberline. He appears to be a competent investigator of the time and probably made terse reports of his activities.
He did not write publicly about the case because it was technically still open and secondly he chose not to write about his failure to apprehend the Ripper.
What was there to say. The Ripper beat him. He was cheated by death or luck or perhaps skill from a collar that would have put him famously into the history books. |
Author: Phantom
Friday, 10 December 1999 - 08:15 pm | | Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Abberline? Is it Abberline as in "A fine line" or Abberline as in "fit and lean"? Help!
Thanks,
Bob |
Author: Jon
Friday, 10 December 1999 - 09:08 pm | | Bob, there are Abberl'ee'ns & Abberl'eye'ns around the world, it all depends on the pronunciator, thyself :-)
Regards, Jon |
Author: Simon Owen
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 09:51 am | | | Nigel Morland interviewed Abberline just before he died and the Inspector commented on the identity of the murderer , quote " I know ( who the Ripper was ) ... it wasn't a butcher , Yid or foreign skipper as he was supposed to be ... you'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London Society at the time but a long way up. Thats all I will ever say. Goodbye. ( Evening News , 26 June 1976 ). When pressed further , Abberline commented , quote : " I cannot reveal anything except this - of course we knew who he was , one of the highest in the land " ( Morland's Introduction to ' Prince Jack ' by Frank Spiering , 1978 ). So then , did Abberline know more than he was saying ? |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 01:39 pm | | Simon -
The problem, as I see it, with the supposed Abberline quote above is that there is no independent corroboration for it. All we have is Nigel Morland saying that he went to see Abberline, was initially rebuffed, and then managed to extract this nugget of information from him.
It is certainly possible Abberline knew more than he was saying (anything, after all, is POSSIBLE), but Morland's recollection is entirely at odds with any extant evidence we have of Abberline's own views. I should hesitate to say Morland simply invented the statement out of whole cloth; perhaps such an encounter did happen, and a tetchy Abberline - impatient with the young, impertinent questioner who turned up on his doorstep unbidden - barked out the above words and slammed the door in Morland's face so as to get rid of him.
There is, of course, no way to be certain. But, because of the lack of any other witness to the encounter, the dissimilarity of the quotation to what we know of Abberline's thoughts on the case and what I understand was a somewhat laissez-faire attitude of Morland's "Criminologist" toward some Ripper writing submitted there, I am inclined to disbelieve in the Bournemouth encounter happening in just that way.
CMD |
Author: David M. Radka
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 03:09 pm | | Phantom,
I believe it was pronounced like "clothesline." Frederick wasn't Italian, you know.
David |
Author: JacksBack
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 10:34 pm | | | I believe this fellow Nigel Morland should be immediately inducted into the "Ripperology Hall of Fame" as the "Pushyist Ripperologist of All" by virtue of his above mentioned hounding of poor old Abberline practically to the edge of the grave. Poor fellow probably would have told him anything for a little time to die in peace and quiet. |
Author: Christopher T. George
Monday, 28 February 2000 - 11:53 pm | | Hi, JiB:
Indeed this anecdote about Abberline is reminiscent of the wonderful scene in "Field of Dreams" in which Kevin Costner hounds out James Earl Jones, an old Sixties radical, in his rundown apartment--and Jones chases Costner out of the room with a flyspray. One wonders if the words ascribed to Abberline are what he actually said, whether Moreland misheard, or what Abberline thought Moreland wanted to hear, something to fob off a pesky, unwanted visitor.
Chris George |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 01:35 am | | | One wonders if Morland ever met Abberline... |
Author: Simon Owen
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 07:42 am | | | Surely Stewart you canot be doubting the veracity of the late Mr Morland ? By the way , the information I gave above also appears under the entry on Morland in the ' Jack the Ripper A-Z ' although a different date is ascribed to the newspaper article. It seems Conan Doyle came to believe in a similar theory , so its not impossible Abberline could have changed his mind as well. |
Author: Simon Owen
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 07:51 am | | | It is a shame that we have no photograph of the good Inspector , I would like to see what he looked like 'in the flesh ' so to speak. I wonder if there are any descendents still alive and living in Bournemouth who might have a photo , perhaps wedding photos might have survived or something. Has anyone researched into this aspect , Abberline is not a common English name and perhaps even a perusal of the Bournemouth telephone directory might turn up something. |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 09:58 am | | Simon -
I think the point Stewart is making is simply that Abberline's reply is "too good to be true." It explains everything - why the Ripper was never caught, how his identity was hidden, even how he was able to carry on under a seemingly omnipresent police force.
With regards to the "A-Z," I should certainly be the last to disparage the authors of that work. But the entry there only reiterates what I said before; Nigel Morland is the only witness (to the best of my knowledge) to the Abberline/Morland encounter. His recollection of it does not appear to have seen print until amost 50 years later. The "A-Z" repeats what he said, trusting that he is telling the truth. But there is no way of confirming this, and Messrs Begg, Fido and Skinner can only hope for the veracity of Mr Morland in this matter.
Again, I should hate to say that Mr Morland flat-out lied (even in a field as contentious as this, one hesitates to think ill of fellow-researchers), but the story - because of its provenance and its content - needs to be treated with a large pinch of salt. Not necessarily disbelieved, but at least questioned.
And with regards to the good inspector's name - the Michael Caine film pronounces it to rhyme with "keen." In one of his talking tapes on the case, Martin Fido pronounces it to rhyme with "line." You pays your money and takes your chances.
As I recall, Donald Rumbelow interviewed some of Abberline's descendants when writing his book; if such a sleuth as he couldn't find any photos, perhaps there are none to be found. But - and here's a gratuitous plug - Stewart's new book "The Man Who Hunted JTR" (buy it now) has a new, previously undiscovered drawing of the good Inspector in it. I'm sitting by the postbox waiting for my personally inscribed copy to arrive. . .
CMD |
Author: Christopher T. George
Tuesday, 29 February 2000 - 04:42 pm | | Hi, CMD:
In regard to this pronunciation of Inspector Abberline's name would you be feeding us a "line" when you say it should be rhymed with "fine"? Or is it more that it should be rhymed with "keen" as in "lean" pickings? :-)
CTG |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 02 March 2000 - 05:14 am | | | I trawled through lots of telephone directories the other day , but sadly I found no Abberlines. However the will of Frederick Abberline and the will of Emma Abberline ( ne Beasant ) should be availible from the Records office if anyone has the time to look for them. |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 02 March 2000 - 05:17 am | | | Does anyone have a page of Abberline's handwriting they can print up on this page ? Thanks ! |
Author: Martin Fido
Monday, 29 May 2000 - 12:54 pm | | Regrettably the A-Z has to keep cutting matter,
especially evaluative comments, to make room for
new material in revised editions. Before it even
reached print we'd had to ditch thousands of
words. But I think the first edition retained a
wonderful tongue-in-cheek sentence drafted by Paul
Begg to the effect that 'Mr Nigel Morland had many
friends who were delighted by his skill as a
raconteur and love of romance.' (I'm away from my
books and files).
Martin Fido |
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