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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Sir Melville Macnaghten
Casebook Message Boards: Police Officials: Police Officials:
Sir Melville Macnaghten
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 14 July 2002 - 12:07 pm |        | Hi Martin,
Somehow, given the extent of the search you
conducted, I can't imagine anybody else doing
as thorough a check soon.
But it still bugs me - that connection of the two
events: Macnaghten joining the Yard in June 1889,
and the murder of Alice MacKenzie in July. If
Macnaghten wanted to have the events of the
previous autumn thrown into his face, the sudden
appearance of a Ripper-like murder within a month
of his joining the Yard would have done it. And
he certainly is sure (later on) that the MacKenzie
killing is not a Ripper murder. Not only does he
specifically say there were only five murders by
the Ripper, ending with Mary Kelly's, but he
later is on record as regretting that he never had
a chance to try to catch the Ripper.
Now, he may have put down his views on paper in
1894, in response of the Thomas Cutbush business,
and he may have conducted a quiet search of his
own in 1889 - 1894 regarding his three suspects,
but still, if he was such an enthusiast about
finding the Ripper, what made him so sure Alice
MacKenzie was not one of the victims. Certainly
the investigation was not so perfect that he
could depend on it to dismiss the Ripper as a
suspect. After all, MacKenzie's killer was never
formally arrested, charged, or tried. So, how
can one be so sure, as the then novice Macnaghten
seems to be, that Alice was not murdered by the
Ripper. Something we are unaware of made the
people who worked on the MacKenzie case sure she
was not a Ripper suspect. And whatever it was,
was told to Macnaghten.
Now, if it was something in the types of wounds
on the body of Alice (as opposed to those on the
bodies of Mary Kelly or Liz Stride or Kate Eddowes) there would have been no reason by 1914
for Macnaghten not to mention the reason (though
not to go into great detail, for police reasons).
But if it had to do with a detail like the death
or incarceration of the possible suspects, that
might be mentioned. He would not specifically
say who it was in a public writing, but he would
mention it.
So the issue becomes what did Macnaghten learn in
1889. More details about Alice MacKenzie's murder
and the investigation thereof have to be sifted.
One final issue. Please explain the duties of
the High Constable at the Yard, and of the Assistant High Constable, if you have a chance.
In June 1889 Macnaghten became Assistant High
Constable.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 14 July 2002 - 12:18 pm | | Re: Alice MacKenzie
I just looked at the Ripper Victims thread on
this subject, and found only four posted four
years ago. The rest were taken off unless one
contacted the Board Moderator.
If anybody can verify this point, in July 1889
was Inspector Frederick Abberline involved in
the Cleveland Street investigation (and so, unable
to assist in the MacKenzie investigation) or was
he free to be involved with both at that point.
Jeff |
Author: Stan Russo
Sunday, 14 July 2002 - 05:02 pm | | Jeff,
Inspector Abberline was involved in the Cleveland Street Scandal in July of 1889. A young man named Swinscow and another young man named Newlove were questioned for spending larger anounts of money than their regular jobs wages paid. Newlove was offered assistance by a clergyman named Veck who engineered the whole thing. The police got their information about Veck on July 9th, and from that point the brothel where the male prostitution occurred was watched by men under the control of Inspector Abberline.
They knew something was going on before July 9th but could not get direct evidence until then. It is probably likely that Abberline was involved from the beginning of the investigation, which could be as far back as the beginning of June.
There was a cover-up to protect certain members of the nobility, directly protecting a Lord Euston and possibly secretly protecting Prince Eddy, his father the Prince of Wales, or both.
Abberline was probably consulted on the murder of Alice McKenzie, most likely by Inspector Reid, who had worked directly under the command of Abberline in the autumn of 1888. Reid believed McKenzie to be a victim of 'JTR' so consulting Abberline would have been a no-brainer.
Despite gatherine incriminating evidence against Veck on July 9th, he was not arrested until August 20th. This time interval allowed a number of people to flee to France so they could not testify, including the owner of the brothel Hammond.
There's no direct involvement of Abberline in the murder case of Alice McKenzie. Inspector Henry Moore had taken over the on the ground investigation by this time. There should be no doubt in any reasonable person's mind that Abberline was consulted, but appears to have been nothing more than that, a consultant.
STAN |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Monday, 15 July 2002 - 12:47 pm | | Jeff, to add to what Stan has already said, Abberline was not involved in the McKenzie murder because he was no longer involved in the investigation of the Whitechapel murders, having ended his position as the head of the investigation in early 1889 and thus had gone back to Scotland Yard. The McKenzie Investigation was headed by Chief Inspector Moore who certainly outranked Abberline and who was higher up in the chain of command during the Ripper murders investigation. There is no evidence, other than conjectural, that Abberline had anything to do with the McKenzie murder investigation.
Wolf. |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Monday, 15 July 2002 - 02:04 pm | | Wolf,
Just to correct you on a minor point about Henry Moore, he did not, and at no time ever did, outrank Abberline.
Abberline was promoted to Inspector first-class on 9 February 1888, and to Chief Inspector on 22 December 1890.
Moore, however, was not promoted to Inspector first-class until 22 December 1890 (filling the vacancy left by Abberline), and to Chief Inspector on 27 September 1895, some four years after Abberline retired in that rank.
This misconception has mainly arisen because of Walter Dew's error (in his book I Caught Crippen) in calling Moore a Chief Inspector and Abberline an Inspector at the time they investigated the Whitechapel murders. The most recent books have corrected this error.
Best Wishes,
Stewart |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 15 July 2002 - 09:22 pm | | Hi Stan, Wolf, and Stewart,
So, from what I now understand, Abberlene was
deeply immersed in the investigation into the
male bordello on Cleveland Street, and (unless
he was asked by someone like Inspector Reid)
he had no involvement in the investigation of
Alice MacKenzie's murder. The investigation was
led by Inspector Henry Moore.
Now, how would Assistant High Constable Melville
Macnaghten have fitted into the MacKenzie investigation (if at all)?
Best wishes and thanks,
Jeff |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Tuesday, 16 July 2002 - 12:05 am | | Jeff,
Macnaghten was not 'High Constable', there was no such rank in the Metropolitan Police Force, he was Assistant Chief Constable of the C.I.D. at this time. Adolphus Williamson was Chief Constable (C.I.D.) and very sick (he died in December 1889). Effectively Macnaghten was second in command to Anderson and assumed command of the C.I.D. in Anderson's absence.
Monro was Commissioner at the time of the McKenzie murder (he attended the scene), and he initially thought that she was another Ripper victim. However, the police surgeon, Bagster Phillips, felt that a different killer was involved, although Dr. Bond disagreed. The abdominal mutilation was very superficial in comparison to that inflicted by the Ripper. So the murder was one of the Whitechapel murders series, but in the final analysis was believed to have been committed by a different hand.
Macnaghten was promoted to full Chief Constable in 1890.
Best Wishes,
Stewart |
Author: Martin Fido
Tuesday, 16 July 2002 - 06:26 am | | Hi Jeff,
You ask what the Chief Constable did. The rank was created in 1886 by Warren's predecessor, Sir Edmund Henderson. It was intended to ease the difficulty of liaison between the three officers in the Commissioner's Office at Scotland Yard(Commissioner and two Assistant Commissioners) and the Superintendents (i/c the 25 Divisions). Also to create heads for the four Districts into which the Divisions were to be grouped.
Up to that time there was a rigid distinction between the working police officers promoted up from the ranks (Constable to Sergeant to Inspector to Chief Inspector to Superintendent to Chief Superintendent) and the administrative top brass (Commissioner and ACs) who were drawn from the 'officers and gentlemen' class - usually soldiers, but occasionally lawyers or (as in Anderson's case) a senior civil servant with law degrees and membership of the bar). Henderson wanted to use the opportunity of the new rank to create a level at which artisan polcemen and gentlemen mixed. With this in view, Robert Walker was promoted one of the new District Chief Constables. (I think he was the same Walker whom Dickens had interviewed in earlier years along with members of the Detective Division.) With the exception of Adolphus Williamson, he was to be the only ranker officer promoted Chief Constable for nearly 50 years.
In "Crimes, Detection & Death" I said wrongly that it was Warren who saw the need for more chiefs to communicate with the Indians and who wanted the new grade to mix officers of upper and working class origins. In fact Warren accepted the need for Chief Constables, bu wanted to revert to having only army or naval officers at the rank. Which makes it interesting that when the appointment of Old Etonian gentleman Macnaghten to the newly devised Chief Constableship over the CID became a bone of contention between Warren and Monro, it was ranker Williamson who slipped into the position. (I have always suspected that, pace Robert Anderson's remarks, the real reason Williamson threatened to resign at this time was understandable pique at having an inexperienced young toff from an Indian indigo plantation shoved in over his head. Williamson had always shown some skill in gaining novel senior ranks, getting himself made the first Chief Inspector and then the first Chief Superintendent).
There were no more Chief Constables promoted from the ranks until 1918, and the restriction of this and the higher grades to outsider gentlemen rankled with the ordinary officers. The title of the rank was deliberately equivalent to that of the top men of provincial forces: although the City of London Police had a Commissioner like the Met, most county and borough forces were headed by Chief Constables. The justification for this was that the work of a Metropolitan officer commanding a District (or with an equivalent departmental or administrative burden of responsibility) was equal to or greater than that of provincial "Commissioners".
The rank was abolished in 1945, having been rendered superfluous by the rank of Deputy Assistant Commissioner.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Tuesday, 16 July 2002 - 08:35 am | | Jeff,
To clarify the promotion of Williamson to the rank of Chief Constable, the following may help.
In May 1886 Warren was informed by Monro, who was then Assistant Commissioner, C.I.D., that he was in urgent need of 'an official in his Department as confidential assistant to himself'. At that time the clerical duties of the C.I.D. were performed by Police Assistant Clerks, and Monro wanted an assistant to aid him in conducting correspondence, etc., of a secret and confidential nature, and to conduct routine work whilst Monro was engaged on 'special matters'.
The then Home Secretary, Hugh Childers, sanctioned the appointment of such an assistant to Monro in June 1886. Warren recommended Chief Superintendent Williamson for the post. Childers agreed and Williamson took up the position with the rank of District Superintendent of the Criminal Investigation Department (effectively Chief Constable) in July 1886.
In January 1889 Monro informed the Home Secretary, then Henry Matthews, that Williamson's status as Chief Constable had not been officially recognised and he had practically been deprived of all authority, thus diminishing the assistance he had been able to afford to the Assistant Commissioner (by then Anderson). In order to allow Anderson to avail himself to the full of the valuable services of Williamson and to improve efficiency, Monro suggested that the position of Williamson as Chief Constable of the C.I.D. (a position practically accorded to him thus far) be definitely sanctioned as from the date of his original appointment. Matthews agreed on 28 January 1889 and Williamson was appointed, officially, as Chief Constable of the Criminal Investigation Department, back dated to 8 July 1886.
At the commencement of 1888 Williamson had been very ill and went on sick leave. As a result Warren had (in February 1888) asked that an Assistant Chief Constable should be temporarily appointed to assist Monro. Warren also recommended that this new officer should be trained with a view to him replacing Williamson when he retired. In March 1888 Matthews agreed to the appointment of an Assistant Chief Constable. However, this appointment was delayed until the arrival of Macnaghten, who commenced duties on 1 June 1889, under Monro (Warren, as we know, having resigned in November 1888).
The experienced Williamson died in December 1889 and in January 1890 Matthews approved of the duties of Chief Constable being assigned to Macnaghten. In December 1890, the new Commissioner, Edward Bradford, recommended that the provisional arrangement should be made permanent and that Macnaghten should be promoted to the full rank of Chief Constable. The C.I.D. office duties of the Assistant Chief Constable were assigned to a Superintendent (Butcher).
Thus Macnaghten's previously held rank of Assistant Chief Constable was dispensed with and he became full Chief Constable until his promotion to Assistant Commissioner in 1903.
Best Wishes,
Stewart |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Tuesday, 16 July 2002 - 10:21 pm | | Hi Martin and Stewart,
First my apologies for misnaming the position
of Macnaghten in my previous inquiry. You have
both managed to explain what the duties of
Macnaghten would have been in June - July 1889,
although to complicate matters he would have also
been feeling his way into the new job and into
his working relations with other Yarders at the
same time. But the key points are these:
1) he is a liason man between Williamson, his
immediate (if ailing - if not dying) supervisor,
and the 25 Superintendents of the Metropolitan
police divisions.
2) due to Williamson's incapacitation, Macnaghten
is also directly under Anderson, to the point that
he takes over running the C.I.D. when the latter
is away.
In any case, due to his close contact to the 25
Superintendents, he would be hearing whatever
"wisdom" they would be imparting to his willing
ears on many matters. Had Williamson been well,
presumably Macnaghten would have been able to
depend on Adolphus for some training, but he
couldn't. No doubt Anderson would have given him
some, and Monro and Anderson would have suggested
which people for Macnaghten to observe more
carefully to learn his work.
Now, the issue becomes who are the 25 Superintendents of the Divisions, and which of them would 1) be involved in the Whitechapel Case
with Abberline, and 2) which would be involved in
the investigation into the murder of Alice
MacKenzie. Also having reached this point, who
are the officers who are the levels beneath the
Superintendents that Macnaghten would be aware of
from their roles in investigating the murder of
MacKenzie. From a previous message the head of
the investigation is Inspector Henry Moore.
Fred Abberline is involved in the Cleveland Street
mess.
Than you both so far for the assistance. I never
read DAYS OF MY YEARS. I have worked for the
New York State Civil Service for close to 21 years
now,and I know that favoritism can occur to push
people into promotions (even if test lists should
prevent these selections). Can somebody please
explain to me how a Ceylon tea plantation
manager came to anybody's notice to gain such
a critical job in a law enforcement organization?
Even if he was an old Etonian, who did Macnaghten
know?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Author: Martin Fido
Wednesday, 17 July 2002 - 01:19 am | | Hi Jeff,
Macnaghten knew Monro whom he had met in India (not Ceylon) where he was planting indigo (not tea) and Monro was heading one of the Presidency police forces. (I have seen this described as Bombay and Bengal - I don't think anybody has ever checked with the India Office papers at Blackfriars to make sure which is intended). Macnaghten, in fact, was Monro's protege.
The District Chief Constables had the duty of liaising with the Divisional Superintendents in their Districts. I don't think Macnaghten as CID Asst Ch Con and then Ch Con would have had to. He would, though, probably have had to maintain contact with the Local Inspectors (Heads of Divisional CIDs) I would guess. For H Division (Whitechapel) this was Inspector Reid in 1888; he had just taken over from Abberline who had spent 9 distinguished years as H Division's Local Inspector and was felt to have an unparallelle knowledge of East End crime. Nicholas Connell and Stewart Evans have written a fascinating detailed life of Reid called "The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper" (Rupert Books, Cambridge, 1999). You will find their comments on Reid's opinions very illuminating, but they don't appear to have unearthed evidence of his liaising with Macnaghten on the case. All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Wednesday, 17 July 2002 - 01:59 am | | Hi Jeff,
Martin has admirably explained the overall structure of the C.I.D. and the hierarchy, and Macnaghten's relationship with Monro.
The police Superintendent who was in overall charge of the Whitechapel Division and who checked all the reports submitted on the investigation of the McKenzie murder was Thomas Arnold, as had been the case with the previous murders in H Division.
Apropos Adolphus Williamson, he was the most experienced police officer in the C.I.D. and Anderson relied on him for advice. As a young detective sergeant Williamson had been involved with Inspector Jonathan Whicher in the investigation of the Road Hill House murder and Constance Kent in 1860/1865.
Best Wishes,
Stewart |
Author: Stan Russo
Wednesday, 17 July 2002 - 02:03 pm | | Martin,
You state that MacNaghten was Monro's protege. Why then does he nominate Andrew Howard for Chief Constable over MacNaghten after the death of Williamson? This was one of the reasons Monro resigned, due to the vetoing of Howard by Home Secretary Matthews, who suggested Evelyn Ruggles-Brise for the post. Curiously absent here is MacNaghten who had been the Assistant Chief Constable for almost one year at this time.
Monro got along extremely well with Matthews, having direct access to him by running the 'Special Branch', Section D. It seems like such a minimal matter for them to argue over, causing Monro's resignation, along with the Police Bill revisions, but again why isn't MacNaghten nominated by Monro, if he was his protege?
Monro did nominate MacNaghten for the newly devised rank of Assistant Chief Constable, and many researchers have stated that it was because he wanted to bring MacNaghten in to take over for Williamson. Wouldn't it then be logical for Monro to appoint him to the position that Williamson held before he died? Yet he doesn't.
Everybody hates when a researcher says there was something going on behind the scenes, but in this case it is apparent that there was. Maybe Monro tried to bring MacNaghten in in 1888 to get Warren off his back, so he could better focus on his 'Special Branch' duties without having to deal with the strict militarism of Warren. Maybe Monro also knew that MacNaghten was 'the only man in India who has been beaten by Hindoos'.
STAN |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Wednesday, 17 July 2002 - 10:33 pm | | Hi Martin, Stewart, and Stan:
Thanks for the illumination information. Again,
I apologize for confusing tea plantations in
Ceylon with indigo plantations in India [by the
way Martin, you like trivia questions: A famous
Anglo-American actor, prominent in movies in
Hollywood, worked as the manager of a Ceylon
tea plantation in the early part of the 20th
Century. Among his roles was a murderous Italian
nobleman. Can you guess who it was?]
Getting back to what I have just been told,
a) Monro met Macnaghten in India, liked him, and
pushed for him to get the post of Assistant Chief
Constable.
b) The man in charge of the investigation into
the murder of Alice MacKenzie was Inspector Henry
Moore. But the person who checked the reports
of Moore and others on that investigation was
Inspector Thomas Arnold, who was in overall charge
of the Whitechapel Division.
c)Macnaghten as Assistant Chief Constable does not
have to keep contact with the Divisional Superintendants. He probably keeps in touch with
the Local Inspectors (heads of the local CID),
who in the case of the Whitechapel area is Inspector Reid (who has replaced Fred Abberline).
However, nothing has surfaced as yet to show Reid
liasoning with Macnaghten on the Ripper (or Alice
MacKenzie, for that matter).
4) Somewhere Monro partly changed towards Macnaghten, not recommending him to be successor
to Williamson, and then resigning from the Yard
in a fit of pique when Macnaghten gets that post.
All is interesting, and also suggests that the
chain of command and communications between the
Yard and the Home Office were screwed up for some
time after the murder of Mary Kelly. I get the
impression that there are too many rival chains
of command, and that information could easily be
lost or mangled as a result.
I was also curious who would be responsible for
the area of Blackheath, and what the relationship
of Macnaghten to the River Police would be like.
For I would like to know how the first news of the
death of Druitt came to his attention.
Thank you all for partly straightening out the
earlier questions I asked. |
Author: Eduardo Zinna
Thursday, 18 July 2002 - 03:46 am | | Hello everyone,
Jeff, can everyone play your trivia game or is it only for Martin? If it is, he can find a clue in one of his own recent postings in another thread.
Cheers
Eduardo |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 18 July 2002 - 04:48 am | | Jeff, Eduardo,
After frantic searching, I thought I had the answer, but after Eduardo's message, I'm not so sure. Astonishing movie debut ??
Jim |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 18 July 2002 - 05:50 am | | Dear Stan,
Macnaghten was really still far too inexperienced to slot into the Chief Constable role in 1889, especially after Warren had made such an issue of not even wanting him as Asst Ch Const. Monro brought him straight in as Asst Ch Con when he replaced Warren as Commissioner, however; then on Williamson's sudden death, put Howard in as Chief Constable. Then, within a year, Assistant Commissioner Pearson died, and Monro wanted to promote Howard to this role. That was where Matthews wanted Ruggles-Brise: no way would a Home Office mandarin from a line of Tyte Barnacle civil servants like R-G have been likely to accept the working Chief Constable role. He would expect to be on the Assistant Commissioner level like Anderson if he went to Scotland Yard. (It suited Macnaghten very well, however, for he loved the idea of playing detective, and was sufficiently socially secure as the old Etonian son of a former Chairman of the East India Company and sometime young manager on the family's indigo plantation not to fear loss of status by going into a rank supposedly open to being filled by artisan-class policemen who had worked their way up from the beat). Monro naturally resisted the suggestion of Rugles-Brise strongly, as although he got on well enough with Anderson, he didn't want the police packed with ex-civil servants who would run things in accordance with Home Office wishes. (Think of it in 'Yes, Minister' terms as an attempt by Sir Humphrey to put Bernard in as a watchdog over a department that is too inclined to go its own way. I know Matthews really parallelled Jim and not Sir H, but the scheme had a Humphrey-like control-freaking deviousness to it). So over Howard's promotion and the pensions issue in the Police Bill, Monro resigned. (He had a history of resigning in a pique if he didn't get his own way. And he rather strangely courted popularity and publicity by going to a meeting of constables and firmly backing their pension demands after he had submitted his resignation. Warren, who had fought equally hard on their behalf behind the scenes, recognized the impropriety of making such a squabble with the financial authorities a matter in which the Commissioner or ex-Commissioner suddenly lined up with men who might well have chosen some form of industrial action). Matthews, faced with parliamentary criticism for having lost two Met Commissioners in two years, promptly wriggled out of trouble by saying he thought these were only discussion points, never dreamed tht Monro would resign before they were settled, and yielded on them. So Howard became Asst Com (Supplies) and Macnaghten became Ch Constable at last.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Eduardo Zinna
Thursday, 18 July 2002 - 02:44 pm | | Jim,
Clue: Wilkie Collins
Best,
E. |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Thursday, 18 July 2002 - 04:53 pm | | Eduardo,
Now double checked thanks to your clue. I'm sticking with my original thought. Like your goodself, I'm not a close marked man, I like to talk.
All the best
Jim |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Thursday, 18 July 2002 - 09:08 pm | | Eduardo and Jim,
I enjoy talking to a pair of men who like to
talk. And that accidental coincidence about
W.W.C.'s other major novel on another thread
was totally unexpected. [Chortle, chortle.]
Martin,
This is the first time I heard of Assistant
Commissioner Pearson. Who exactly was he? Was
his death, by any chance, do to stress or overwork
concerning the events in the Warren years, especially Whitechapel?
Jeff |
Author: Eduardo Zinna
Friday, 19 July 2002 - 04:33 am | | Jeff,
He played another larcenous Italian who owned a parrot; an American general who liked onions; a Southern Sheriff and a Scotland Yard man.
Jim,
You first.
Cheers,
Eduardo |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Friday, 19 July 2002 - 05:41 am | | Jeff, Eduardo
By Gad, sirs, you are characters. There's never telling what you'll say or do next, except that it's bound to be astonishing !
No, please, after you Eduardo
Regards
Jim |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 19 July 2002 - 08:20 am | | Can't remember, Jeff (beyomnd what I've said); and haven't detailed archives to hand to check up.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Eduardo Zinna
Friday, 19 July 2002 - 04:14 pm | | Hi all,
I like a man who doesn't say when.
I think we've all got it by now, don't we?
Cheers,
Eduardo |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Friday, 19 July 2002 - 08:32 pm | | Hi Martin,
It is a matter of curiosity. Pearson is the
first official working at the Yard in 1888
who died soon after. It probably means nothing,
but who knows.
Eduardo and Jim,
Yes, I am sure we all have gotten him - and we
can now consider the Black Bird. First he'll make
us millions!
Jeff |
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