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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Police organizational structure
Casebook Message Boards: Police Officials: General Discussion:
Police organizational structure
Author: Jesse Flowers
Saturday, 14 July 2001 - 02:41 pm |        | As an American I am a bit vague on the relationship between Scotland Yard, the CID, and the Metropolitan and City forces. Any information that could help clear this up for me would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Jesse |
Author: Jon
Saturday, 14 July 2001 - 07:04 pm | | Jesse
There are several others who read these boards who can give you a more accurate insight to the relationship between the relevent forces.
Basically, the Metropolitan Police had a Special Detective department called C.I.D. (Coppers in disguise ) and were housed at Scotland Yard, #4 Whitehall Place.
The Assistant Commissioner (head) of the CID was Dr. (Sir) Robert Anderson.
The Assistant Commissioner (head) of the Metropolitan Police was Sir Alexander Carmichael Bruce.
Both these persons answered to General (Sir) Charles Warren, Cheif Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police force during the Ripper murders.
The City of London Police were a seperate entity headed by Major Henry Smith, (Acting Commissioner) responsible for the 1 square mile of the central City (business district). They also had their own detective department.
Stewart Evans, Martin Fido or Paul Begg may correct or confirm the above.
Regards, Jon
(just trying to help) |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Saturday, 14 July 2001 - 11:18 pm | | Thanks a lot for your information Jon. I had been under the impression that Scotland Yard was a sort of national police force (like our FBI in some respects). I didn't realize it was just another name for CID (unless I'm still getting it wrong...)
Anyway thanks again
Jesse |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 15 July 2001 - 12:57 am | | Jesse
Actually I bearly skimmed the surface, it gets more complicated the deeper you look into it.
I stopped at Charles Warren because he was the highest Policeman, the one above him, the person he answered to was a Government Official, the Home Secretary Sir Henry Matthews.
Whitehall was the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police, a part of that address was an office that looked out across a yard, there's an historical reason why this yard was called Scotland Yard, I wont go into that at this point but this office, or portion of Whitehall was where the CID was based. Also, another rarely mentioned department was Special Branch, headed by James Monro, this operated seperate to the CID, and also seperate to the Metropolitan Police, in fact Monro was answerable straight to Sir Henry Matthews, much to the annoyance of Sir Charles Warren.
This is about as far as I should go without referring to some documents, others I mentioned previously are far more well informed on this subject than I.
But I hope it helps to clarify the confusion, and if it only added to it I can fully understand.
Regards, Jon |
Author: The Viper
Sunday, 15 July 2001 - 06:35 am | | The subject of police organisation has arisen here before. In the absence of comment from our (sometimes) resident experts mentioned by Jon above, perhaps Jesse might like to read an article by Andrew Morrison on the main Casebook called An Introduction to the Metropolitan Police.
Chapter 13 of Martin Fido's The Crimes, Detection and Death of JTR and the first chapter of Paul Begg's JTR - The Uncensored Facts give a good introduction to the various personalities and structures too.
On December 26th 2000, 11:41 a.m. I had a crack at defining the City of London and thereby its separate police force on a message board here; see Police Officials/General Discussion/Fixed Point Duty.
Regards, V. |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 15 July 2001 - 09:41 am | | Hi, Jesse:
To clear up a bit of confusion here, the Metropolitan police were not simply a detective branch (CID = Criminal Investigation Department, not "cops in disguise" the humorous but highly unofficial meaning sometimes given) but a full service police force for the London metropolitan area including both a plain clothes and a uniformed branch of beat coppers, sergeants, and other uniformed police ranks. When you think of Scotland Yard as being equivalent to the national FBI in the United States, the reason you get this impression, is that as the twentieth century progressed (and as shown in many a motion picture!), Scotland Yard's crime-solving detectives were called in by local police departments for their expertise in important cases in the British Isles. Scotland Yard did also have a "Special Branch" that investigated Irish fenian activity throughout the British Isles. As Jon has indicated, the City Police were the police force separate to the Metropolitan Police and whose responsibility was solely the narrow square mile that encompassed the old City of London, basically these days the financial district of London.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 15 July 2001 - 10:43 am | | I think I left a minor detail open.
Regarding the City Police (for the benefit of Jesse), Major Henry Smith was Acting Commissioner, in lieu of the actual Commissioner, Sir James Fraser, who was on leave at the time of the Eddowes murder, (the only 'City' victim).
The City Police Commissioner was not answerable to Sir Henry Matthews at the Home Office, but only to the Mayor and Corporation of the City of London.
In this case 'City' refers to the limited 1 square mile area of central London.
You can think of a City within a City, which had its own Police force, much the same as today with respect to Rome, in which the Vatican has its own seperate authority within its own precincts but within the larger City of Rome.
Regards, Jon
P.S.
The real authority here on the City Police is Martin Fido.
Donald Rumbelow, unfortunately not on this list, wrote an excellent history of this force in 'I Spy Blue', highly recommended. |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Sunday, 15 July 2001 - 11:48 am | | Thanks to all for clarification of the terms Scotland Yard and CID, which is mainly what I was looking for. With all the different departments and overlapping jurisdictions it's sometimes difficult to know who was responsible for what and who was in charge of whom. And why would a Special Branch man like Littlechild have any particular interest in what appear to be a series of sex murders? In any event, thanks again for taking the time to respond.
Jesse |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 15 July 2001 - 12:10 pm | | Hi, Jesse:
I don't believe Chief Inspector John George Littlechild did have special expertise in the Whitechapel murders but nevertheless in the Littlechild letter of 1913 he was evidently answering a question posed to him by George R. Simms about a suspect which he refers to as a "Dr. D." which might mean (many think) Druitt who was sometimes referred to as a doctor, Dr. Roslyn D'Onston, Dr. Morgan Davies (accused by D'Onston), or yet another Dr. D. we perhaps do not know about. I may be wrong, but I think Littlechild knew about Tumblety not so much from the Whitechapel murders but from Dr. T's fenian activities, i.e., he knew the name because he was being monitored by Special Branch for his Irish nationalist activities and so when Tumblety came up as a "very likely" suspect in the Whitechapel crimes, he came to the Special Branch man's notice and this fact stayed in his mind 25 years later. The "large dossier" on Tumblety mentioned by Littlechild in the letter might thus have been mostly material on Dr. T as a fenian than as a Ripper suspect. I hope this explanation helps.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Scott Nelson
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 05:18 pm | | | Stewart, do you know if George Butcher was the MET Superintendent who replaced Macnaghten as Assistant Chief Constable when Macnaghten became Chief Constable? |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 07:10 pm | | Scott,
Sorry, Butcher is one officer that I really don't have much information on. Macnaghten, in his book Days of My Years, states:-
"[Superintendent CID] James Butcher was a man of strong analytical temperament, and no officer could make a more convincing report. He brought, in 1882, Dr. Lampson [sic] the acontine poisoner, to justice; and made many 'outside' inquiries for the Home Office, notably those in which he proved the so-called Edlingham burglars had been wrongfully convicted. A man of quick judgment and hasty temper, he was not infrequently possessed of a grievance, and it used to be said of him by his brother officers that "Jimmy Butcher was never happy unless he was miserable." He died the death of a patient hero, after a most distressing and suffering illness, and it was my privilege to be with him almost to the end."
I do have something else on Butcher on file somewhere and I will see if I can locate it.
Best Wishes,
Stewart |
Author: Scott Nelson
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 10:50 pm | | | Thanks for looking into this Stewart. The reason I ask is that there was a Superintendent "Butcher" listed in the East End Observer (7-11-92), who was one of the MET policemen attending Abberline's retirement ceremony at the Three Nuns Hotel in Aldgate. Unfortunately, no first name was recorded. I seem to recall from an early post by Martin Fido, I believe, that there was a PC George Butcher in the MET, and that this same guy had risen to the rank of Superintendent, then Asst. Ch. Constable. I can't be sure though. |
Author: Stewart P Evans
Tuesday, 19 November 2002 - 03:30 am | | Scott,
Superintendent Butcher was a Chief Inspector at Scotland Yard in 1888 (one of five) and I think the man you refer to is a different person. However, if I find anything else I'll let you know.
Best Wishes,
Stewart |
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