Author: Caz
Wednesday, 16 June 1999 - 10:15 am |        |
Ha ha, most amusing, the pair of yous.
And waddya mean 'makings'? I thought you'd already made ya minds up :-)
BTW, I wonder who's 'supporting' who? I've heard it called all sorts of things, but.... :-)
Can we go back to police matters PLEASE?
Love,
Caz Wench, of the foul-mouthed Mopps
(Mater will be turning in her grave, I'm only glad Pater can't see these pages. His foulest-mouthed efforts are 'damn and blast' :-)) |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Wednesday, 16 June 1999 - 10:24 am | |
Rich:
Interesting suspect and one that we should examine in detail. A couple of points: no public hangings in 1888 but you could see Dan Leno at the Gaiety. Vacuum cleaner wasn't invented until 1901. The yellow duster of course was our friend Sooty who has been conclusively proved innocent. Apart from that, a lot less errors than some recent suspects. Speaking of Mrs Mopp, does the phrase: "Can I do you now, sir?" mean anything to anyone? It was in fact a catch-phrase used in the phenomenally successfull radio show ITMA (ask anyone over 60) by the fictional Mrs Mopp. Much of the show was written by Jack Train, the pen name of Charles Wilden who was born in 1917. His father was Arthur James Wilden and his mother was (wait for it!) Nancy Grossmith, daughter of Walter Weedon Grossmith. We therefore have, by chance, at last found definite proof that ripper related rumours were carried through the family of one who has been recently linked to the killings, and were broadcast, albeir in a coded form in 1941. Can this be coincidence?
Peter. |
Author: Rich
Wednesday, 16 June 1999 - 10:39 am | |
It WAS Mrs Mopp. I am utterly, utterly sure of it. "It's that man again" (ITMA) was in actual fact the cover used by a fictional Mrs Mopp, which you quite rightly put was derived by a relative of Nancy and Walter. There is no coincidence. Just fact.
Rich |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Wednesday, 16 June 1999 - 12:35 pm | |
As has been said, there is no such thing as coincidence. Consider then these following FACTS:
The star of ITMA was Tommy Handley who was born in Liverpool in 1897. He was born at 227 Mersey Road, Aigburth. If you turn right into Aigburth Road the fifth on the right is Riversdale Road home, at one time to the Maybricks. Tommy's father, John Alfred Handley was a cotton dealers clerk and his mother was Jane Margaret Graham. Research so far has not shown any link to the Hartlepool Graham's but interestingly enough Tommy's sister (who emigrated to the US in 1927) was named Susan Chandler Handley.
And lastly, thanks to the BBC who have made some of the ITMA Programmes available on cd, let me give you a few lines of dialogue from the July 14th 1943 edition:
TOMMY: "Do you follow the horses, Mrs. Mopp?"
MRS M: "Yes Mr. 'andley, it does wonders for the roses!"
TOMMY: "My Grand-dad was Jack the Ripper you know."
MRS M. "Can I do you now, sir?"
COL. CHINSTRAP: "I don't mind if I do!"
CURTAIN
Coincidence or conspiracy? |
Author: Karoline
Wednesday, 16 June 1999 - 01:31 pm | |
Hi all
Caz, I guess you are kind of suggesting that Rich or Lindsay might either (or both) be me? I can see why you MIGHT think so, but closer inspection should show the all important absence of true Leachy genius.
R&L are good - but not THAT good :-)
Does the 'duster' mean that Sooty, like the Alien in 'Alien' shed his skin and grew at phenomenal speed to phenomenal size - at will!
Possibly, but I think we should curtail further discussion of it here, out of courtesy for others.
Perhaps the time has come for Sooty (or Mrs. Mopp?) to have his own Board?
Only kidding
love to all
Karoline |
Author: Caz
Wednesday, 16 June 1999 - 06:21 pm | |
Hi All,
I did say there was no competition with the real thing.
But carry on all. Who am I to stop you digging your own holes with the non-JtR stuff on a serious topic? :-)
Love,
Caz |
Author: MILES SLEUTH
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 02:47 am | |
Rich has uncovered one of the more plausible lines of enquiry ref the Rippers True Identity. Eyebrows may be raised at the thought that Mrs Mopp was the real Ripper but consider this further:
-Mrs Mopp was related to Inspector J.B. Tonbridge by virtue of a common maternal grandmother Edith Tomlinson.
-One of Mrs Mopps cleaning jobs was at Inspector Tonbridges upstairs neighbour a certain Professor Starling in Broughton Street, Pimlico. This and her relationship with Inspector Tonbridge gave Mrs Mopp significant access to Inspector Tonbridge's lodgings.
Therefore one can possibly assume that perhaps in her everyday "cleaning" activities she could "keep abreast" of the Ripper Case developments and thereby maintain her anonymity?
When I was studying Criminal Psychology at UCLA in the late 70s I did happen to research the Ripper subject in some detail in particular with reference to the Charles Manson-Sharon Tate murder. The conclusions gained were that Manson and Mopp both sought fiendish pleasure out of surgically disecting their victims, albeit Mrs Mopp was better and hiding her guilt that Charles Manson. This certainly is an area of the human psyche that necessitates further scrutinisation and analysis. Are there any further comparison papers which may be of interest to myself or others.
In London last year whilst doing the "American" touristy type activities I tried to find both Sherlock Holmes's residence at 221B Baker Street , which is alas no more and also Inspector Tonbridges residence at Broughton Street, which interestingly enough is now home to a Security Firm.
"Funny old world innit" as those Cockney Londoners say. |
Author: billy
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 07:48 am | |
Miles,
As a " Cockney Londoner " I find it very patronising and distasteful the way you stereotype the language pattern of the master ( If only in ego terms ) race.
If it was up to myself, I would climb the old apple and stairs, and bop you in the mickey mace.
On to the subject of JtR may I put forward my own theory on this matter.
Time Travel.
If I am not mistaken more than 100years ago in 1895, H. G. Wells classic story The Time Machine was first published in book form. Ten years later, Albert Einstein’s special theory of relativity was first published. It was Einstein who first described time as " the fourth dimension ".
This leads me to my next point. As I am a physicist based at the Los Lamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, specialising in quantum physics, I have to say time travel is the most likely cause for the near ghost like disappearances of old Jack.
As a colleague of mine once said after studying Einstein’s equations from all sides, " There is nothing in the equations to prevent time travel provided you have the technology to manipulate black holes". This throws up the thoughts of, yes he did have the technology and, yes he has used it to maximum effect.
According to one interpretation of quantum theory, parallel worlds that are as real as our own run side by side ours with an alternative history for every possible outcome of every decision ever made. Who's world is living in reality?.
Jack the ripper found a wormhole and jumped between the parallel worlds, carried out his heinous crimes with savage brutality and then legged it back to the wormhole, only to arrive back in his own time where this type of crime was natural. He knew no other way, this was every day life for him, can he be condemned for living life the way he alway's had.
I would welcome comments back on my theories. Ok Rich. |
Author: JOE
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 08:03 am | |
Hi all,
Caz, got to agree with you on R&L, But don't be distracted. Very amusing but their contribution is for another time and place. Sorry I have not contributed more, but I am a bit shy even on email. I, like 'Miles Sleuth', have done the touristy bit in London and never fail to be amazed by the history, including jtr. As for Rich's comments about the Plague, well done Rich....even you could pick out one member of royalty. As for Lindsay's 'Dead geese and Vacuums'
enough said. As a quiet bystander I, personally speaking, would love to hear Miles expand on his theory. I think Miles is the only one with a serious thinking as to what Dan and Cg were talking about. Looking forward to a more informative and interesting discussion. Once again I apologise for not contributing more.
Take care,
Joe |
Author: Guy Hatton
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 08:37 am | |
Billy -
I think you've been taking recent episodes of "Goodnight Sweetheart" too seriously. Go and lie down in a dark room for a while! ;-) |
Author: Guy Hatton
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 08:45 am | |
| Or at least, you would have been, had it been shown in New Mexico! Let's just say that the time-travelling, worm-hole-navigating Jack has been done! As British readers/viewers may know, the murders ceased because Jack was run down by a bus while in 1999. |
Author: rich
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 08:46 am | |
Billy or is it Karoline???,
Einstein was a purely theoretical physicist and much of his work in Relativity can be discredited rather freely. Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle basically proves that Einsteins theories are poppycock. Maybe a way of proving it would be to introduce Quantum Tunneling. Quantum Tunneling introduces the concept of waves passing into or through forbidden regions by a process known as quantum tunneling. Applications of quantum tunneling is studied using the Scanning Tunneling Microscope (STM) where electrons pass through a classically forbidden region. Through Potential Energy diagrams and computer simulation the student sees how the wave function of an electron can have a finite value while inside a potential that should not allow the electron to exist. This finite (non-zero) wave function of the electron leads to a non-zero probability of the electron tunneling across a region that it should not be able to exist in.
Maybe this is detracting away from the real issues though.
It is unpractical to think of JTR as having access to a time machine, although it can and should not be discredited. There are other issues at hand which may have to be asked before we start introducing another 'phantom' Jack. My theory of Mrs Mopp being the killer has been justified over the past couple of days by various individuals. I can understand that there may be some theorists out there who presume that there is another internal conspiracy at large where my theories are being dragged along in some sort of 'humour-train'. I hope not. I really don't. There are various artificats/circumstantial evidence still available at Scotland Yard for investigation, and I was curious if anyone has chosen to inspect for any traces of DNA. If so, and if there is a database available, why don't we demand a swab from the McKenzie/Grossmith families. Then and only then can we eliminate them from the investigation.
I would also like to assure the other authors on this page that my personal interest in this investigation is more than genuine, and should be held as being a credible input to a most worthy argument.
Rich |
Author: JOE
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 09:15 am | |
Rich,
If you are as genuine as you say you are then I fully apologise for my previous post. it is just that I find this particular subject too fascinating to trivialise. I am glad you have brought up DNA as I firmly believe that if this was at all possible, then it could go a long way to elimination. Others, please elaborate.
Joe |
Author: Karoline
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 12:06 pm | |
No, rich, I'm not Joe. Is he 'Joseph'? Yesterday someone thought you were me.
Personally I'm inclined to think Joe, Joseph, Scribbler, Scrappy, Crappy, Lindsay, Billy, and all the rest are the products of one deranged imagination; emanations of a psyche, who, like Frankenstein's monster, have become a force their creator can no longer control. They have burst from the darkness of his id to colonise the ether with their entirely virtual reality; an uncontainable force for Chaos and despair.
Or then again maybe not. A good one for the X-Files though.
But anyway, NONE of these chaps are me. I don't and won't appear as anyone other than Karoline,
love to all
Monica
(just kidding) |
Author: Jon Smyth
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 05:01 pm | |
Billy !!!
And you work where ?...doing what ?
Geez....stop the world, I wanna get off !!!
Jon |
Author: Ashling
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 06:01 pm | |
Hi y'all.
BILLY: Regarding your statements below -
"parallel worlds that are as real as our own run side by side ours with an alternative history for every possible outcome of every decision ever made."
Sounds awfully crowded, bet the rush hour traffic is murder ...
Jack the ripper found a wormhole and jumped between the parallel worlds, carried out his heinous crimes with savage brutality and then legged it back to the wormhole, only to arrive back in his own time where this type of crime was natural.
... So why not just stay home, avoid stressful traffic & just kill in his own world?
Take care,
Janice |
Author: Ashling
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 06:04 pm | |
Hi again folks. The blue words in my previous post should be encased in quotes also. Sorry.
Janice |
Author: Caz
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 07:13 pm | |
Police Innovation, Tools and Techniques.
I geddit. This is the tools section.
Do I win £5?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Julian
Thursday, 17 June 1999 - 10:58 pm | |
G'day Caz, Janice.
Hey Janice, I wish I could get some blue words, all I get are red dots.
Caz, My Hmmmmm, maybe not.
Jules |
Author: MILES SLEUTH
Friday, 18 June 1999 - 01:41 am | |
Right now everyone STOP IT!!!!!
This is meant to be a serious discussion site not some colorfull way out freaky bulletinboard for posting irrelevant nonsense.
In researching further the Mrs Mopp statement it is of interest that Rich mentions the DNA aspect.
Dr Sheryl Sullivan in her 1995 treatise "Historical Assessment of Crime by DNA Fingerprinting" (available from USGSO) argues that it should be possible to take DNA samples from "non cremated" victims and by using high speed analytical computer techniques go back through family trees and prove or otherwise guilt or innocence. Are any of you guys rich enough to put something like this in place?? I would be interested.
Rich I would use the Grossmith family since Mackenzie can be spelt in may ways and obviously there are more of them. I will investigate further and revert.
I am also told that Mrs Mopp is a quaint Englishism relating to cleaning ladies? Perhaps before 1888 this was not the case? A bit like Lincolns killer Mr Mud giving rise to the "your names mud" epitaph. Are there any other of these Englishms like "He done a Tonbridge Guvner" relating to a policeman who doesn't solve a crime? Let me know guys. Listen its nearly midnight here in downtown LA and I'm off to my bed. |
Author: JOE
Friday, 18 June 1999 - 03:04 am | |
Karoline,
Sorry to disappoint your theory about being somebody else, but no, I am just plain old me. However, I can see where you are coming from the way this site has flown away at all sorts of tangents. On this point I would like to congratulate Miles for trying to pull the conversation back to some sort of realistic discussion.
Miles, if you check your english history you will find that the saying 'Mrs Mopp' did in fact come from the JTR case. It is a title still given to our dear cleaning ladies. The Mrs Mopp theory has gained credence through time because of the fact that it was never proven, as were other aspects of the case. In my relatively poor research, I cannot understand why nobody has gone down the road of DNA. The only conclusion I can draw on is that history is more fascinating from afar. It is a bit like the 'Loch Ness Monster' story in Scotland, Better left unproven.
Lets get back to the original conversation folks, please.
Sorry Karoline, but I will only appear as me. My little existence is not as bright as these other characters you have mentioned.
Take care all,
Joe. |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 18 June 1999 - 05:49 am | |
Hi y'all.
JOE: Check out General Discussion> Modern Musings> Is DNA the Answer?
Take care,
Janice |
Author: Christopher George
Friday, 18 June 1999 - 07:41 am | |
Hi, Miles Sleuth:
You are thinking of Dr. Samuel Mudd who set Lincoln assassin John Wilkes Booth's leg. He was hardly then one of Lincoln's killers, though as a southern sympathizer, he did help Booth escape from southern Maryland. The American TV newsman and media personality Roger Mudd has been for years trying to clear his forebear's name. Now if only someone could do the same for James Maybrick? ha ha
Chris George |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Friday, 18 June 1999 - 10:46 am | |
Sometimes I have been perhaps, to eager to laugh with incredulous amazement at some of the wilder theories placed on these boards. So few of them are amenable to any form of research. Intriguingly however the "Mopp" theory is born out by records. Investigation today in the 1881 census for Middlesex shows:
15 Lazard Street, Bishopsgate.
Walter G. Moppe 51 Butcher b. Hamburg Nat. Brit. Subject
Jane Moppe 30 wife washerwoman b. Limerick Ireland
Olive Moppe 10 scholar b. Whitechapel
Mary J. Davis 22 sis-in-law Cleaner b. Limerick Ireland.
This information ties in so well with Rich's initial post that I have to suppose Lindsay's subsequent one to be a demented attempt at humour especially as he/she has mistaken Jane Moppe's first name.
Rich is misinformed however as to the 1902 plague which actually only wiped out Poultry Street, Bishops Stortford where His Highness Roberto di Steffano heir to the Italian throne lived. No Moppe's were killed.
Inspection of Nancy Grossmith's baptismal certificate shows that Olive Moppe was her God-mother. Olive later married Ted Kavanagher who became head writer for ITMA.
Isn't it about time for this very credible suspect to have her own page?
Peter. |
Author: Miles Sleuth
Friday, 18 June 1999 - 02:00 pm | |
Good Afternoon everyone, nice and sunny here in LA though some rain is forcast for later according to my friend downstairs.
Peter Birchwood certainly has good access to UK files on an 1881 census. How do you research that stuff? Here we are lucky to get records that go back 20 years? Are these censuses or censi(?) every year, if so how do you carry them out?
Peter I too am very impressed by Rich's theories on Mrs Mopp and I will spend Sunday in the University Library researching the matter further, that's if it's not warm and sunny in which case I'll take a drive to Malibu and chill out with my girlfriends.
Peter, I have today looked at the Italian Royal Family and can find no trace of Roberto di Stefano? Also how did you find Nancy Goldsmith's baptismal certificate. Are you really serious. I requested that this site be kept a serious one which some like Rich and Joe have tried to do.
If anyone can also assist was there a second Tonbridge brother in the Metropolitan Police Force in the 1880s? Some research that I remember, I am desperately trying to find it again, intimated that the two Tonbridge Inspectors were inseperable during the 1889 Whitechapel clampdown? Anybody know any more on this? Also would appreciate a photo/artist impression of Mrs Mopp.
Keep sleuthing |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Sunday, 20 June 1999 - 12:23 pm | |
Miles:
(Is that as in "Miles Gloriosus?) In the UK censuses are carried out every tenyears. The next will be in 2001. If you're in LA you should be able to look at the US 1921 census down at the Federal Archives building in Orange County (nice sandwiches but no decent tea.) We have a 100 year privacy rule so the lates we can check is 1891. The 1881 census is, by courtesy of the lds, name indexed and within a day or two should be available on cd. Contact me for prices.
Remember that Italy was only unified under one Royal Family in 1848 so there still exist today Italian nobility not related to the House of Savoy but with semi-recognised titles.
Baptismal records are kept by churches and some do mention god-parents. Most UK 19th-early 20thC Church of England records are kept in local record offices. Catholic Records aren't but are held by the Priest and are not necesarily public records. In the US things may be different and indeed establishments like Grace Community Church of the Valley, formerly of Panorama City but now established where its Pastor, John MacArthur can easily nip back home in a minute or so to play tennis keep records more suited to Equifax then a normal church.
I have never heard of the Tonbridge brothers, and suspect they may be a myth.
Peter. |
Author: Christopher George
Sunday, 20 June 1999 - 11:14 pm | |
Hey Peter:
You are an absolute mine of information and I have to congratulate you on your depth of knowledge. I am still trying to figure out how you knew Tommy Handley lived on Mersey Road, Liverpool, if you are not a Liverpudlian. Stewart Evans tells me that you are a Landaner not a Scouser, so I guess you picked up the early residence of Mr. Handley from your reading or research. Anything new for me on Thomas J. Bulling, the alleged "enterprising London journalist" of the Central News Agency who may or may not have concocted the Dear Boss letters? If you have anything, please e-mail me privately, as I would like to use whatever you dig up for my proposed presentation on the the Ripper letters at our upcoming April 2000 Jack the Ripper conference in Park Ridge, New Jersey (http://business.fortunecity.com/all/138/cp_conference_on_jtr/). Again, mucho congrats and admiration for the knowledge you impart on these boards.
Chris George |
Author: rich
Monday, 21 June 1999 - 06:55 am | |
Chaps & Chapesses,
I would be more than happy to offer my services at the Jack the Ripper conference in NJ, so as to try and tie up once and for all the REAL killer. Mrs Mopp has, in my opinion, been left out of the frame for too long, and surely must be given a more public audience. I would like to take the opportunity, if I may, to thank Peter for his support. It is refreshing to see that someone else supports me in my pursuit of justice.
Miles. I also would like to thank you also, but please let me clarify a couple of points regarding the history behind Mrs Mopp as the real killer.
Prince Bob. I was being slight coy when I wrote this in a previous post. Prince Roberto de Stefano was the second son of King Mario de Pepe of Milan. This was at the time a small principality, now totally disbanded. Nonetheless, he was still Royalty.
Jane Moppe is in fact the correct name.
May I add another snippet for you all to ponder. The weapon used in the attacks was previously described as being "small, sharp and blade-like". I have other information which clearly describes the weapon as "blunt, medium sized and colourful". Surely this is a Mr Clean yellow Duster that is being described here. I personally think that the duster was used to smother the victim, and then the frenzied attacks were added after by some other deranged 'being'.
Maybe it is time for a separate page. How can this be organised. I have loads more information at hand.
All the best
Rich |
Author: Miles Sleuth
Monday, 21 June 1999 - 03:09 pm | |
Rich and everyone Hi.
Wow is it hot here. I spent yesterday afternoon researching Mrs Mopp and I believe her name was June Mopp which gotten changed to Jane Mopp on her marriage . We have millions of microfiche slides on all things and would you believe it I managed to find one on The Borough of Wadsworth or was it Wandsworth. June Mopp born Wandsworth 6-25-42 would that be the same person. Father Cedric Mopp was a print setter and mother Ruby Murray was a char woman. What is that?
Rich you should set up a web page. I believe that there is a Professor Travis Leedave at Imperial College London who will help you set up the website and apply for funding to present your paper at the JTR Convention next year. I have not checked this out but I was speaking on a chatline bulletinboard this morning and the person at thye other end told me the details.
Peter what is ITMA? This guy on the bulletin board said it was the Italian Tyrolean Music Association what is that? And what's the JTR Connection?
Must off see y'all |
Author: Guy Hatton
Tuesday, 22 June 1999 - 04:19 am | |
Miles -
ITMA - It's That Man Again - a British radio comedy programme from a time only Peter can remember ;-)
Regards
Guy |
Author: Peter Birchwood
Tuesday, 22 June 1999 - 08:43 am | |
Rich/Miles etc:
I started a new board at: Ripper Suspects General Discussion, The Truth is Somewhere. Do you want to adjourn there?
Guy: I consider that a remark of this sort from someone who played with Marconi as a boy is unjustified.
Peter. |
Author: billy
Tuesday, 22 June 1999 - 08:44 am | |
Miles -
ITMA - It's That Mormon Again - an American household comedy ritual when you can't be bothered answering the door.
Regards
Billy |
Author: Guy Hatton
Tuesday, 22 June 1999 - 10:09 am | |
Peter -
I was hoping we could keep the Marconi affair quiet! |
Author: Caz
Tuesday, 22 June 1999 - 07:21 pm | |
Hi All,
Oh, I'm quite partial to Marconi cheese.
(And "It's Those Morons Again" is the phrase that springs to my ungrammatical lips tonight :-))
Love,
Caz Mopp
PS And contrary to one or two opinions, I have never required the phrase "Can I do you now sir?" ;-) |
Author: MILES SLEUTH
Wednesday, 23 June 1999 - 06:45 am | |
A very early good morning to all. I couldn't sleep so it's only 4.40 in the morning. Nice out tho.
Marconi wasn't he that guy who invented the Radio, a little after 1888 I thought, must research that one?
ITMA is it It's That Man or Mormon Again? Still don't understand what you guys are on about?
I now have a lithograph of Mrs Mopp which I have retrieved from The Victoria and Albert Museum Website. No real mention of when it was taken but she looks about 50 plus with a sullen look. Reckon it could be about 1895 or so when she would be 53, my friend downstairs reckons she doesn't look like a Cancerian, I remarked that she wasn't she was a Victorian but the remark was not further commented on? Too serious some guys eh?
Rich any further luck with getting some financial assistance for the JTR convention. I will probably be able to help here as we at UCLA have what's called a Stipendary Fund which could give yo about $2000 towards the visit. Send me your eMail.
I too will be signing off on this board and re-emerging on the new Peter Birchwood Ripper Suspects General Discussion board.
Off to get some bagels and coffee. |
