Archive through 03 February 2003

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Archive through 03 February 2003

Casebook Message Boards: Pub Talk: Columbia down: Archive through 03 February 2003

Author: Brian Schoeneman Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 10:12 am
I can't believe I've lived through this twice... The Space Shuttle Columbia was lost on landing. The crew included the first Israeli in space. God bless them. B
Author: Ally Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 10:14 am
I am in shock as well Brian. Our prayers to the families and the crew of the Columbia. Ally
Author: Philip C. Dowe Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 10:47 am
You two beat just beat me to it. We should stop our bickering over legal cases and who said what to whom and remember that at this very moment in time there are people out there who live dangerously and have just lost their lives or very soon may will.... A sielnt prayer to the crew members and their families and friends Shalom Philip
Author: James Jeffrey Paul Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 10:50 am
Great tragedies sometimes fall like rain (or debris) from the sky. God bless the crew and their families. And let's pray that nothing stops man's drive to explore the unknown.
Author: judith stock Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 11:08 am
Philip, you're right. Something like COLUMBIA puts all this in perspective. No silver linings here, just mourning. J
Author: Eric Cannon Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 01:21 pm
Yes, my prayers go out to them too. In addition to the loss of the brave astronauts, this will be a HUGE setback to the space program. I don't mean that as callously as it sounds.
Author: stephen miller Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 02:43 pm
This really is terrible news and like those above my heart goes out to all connected to the crew in any way from steve
Author: David O'Flaherty Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 03:25 pm
A story from Space.com, January 27th. link
Author: Paula Wolff Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 03:49 pm
I live 17 miles southeast of Waco and it was seen breaking up over Waco by a couple who heard the booming sound that was different from a sonic boom. One of our daughters in Lufkin said debris was really coming down close to them. So sad, so very sad. Twice in a lifetime is twice too many times, I agree. But machines will fail and people who make them are human. Lethal combination sometimes. Prayers being said for all families. Sadly, Paula
Author: Jeff Bloomfield Saturday, 01 February 2003 - 09:33 pm
This has been one sad day for me. I woke up at 9:00 A.M., and soon heard that N.A.S.A. had lost contact with the Columbia. Then that all too familiar "ritual in the dark/or daylight" followed. I remembered it in 1986 with the Challenger, in 1997 when Princess Diane was killed, in 1999 when JFK Jr. and his wife and sister-in-law were killed, and on September 11, 2001. Every catastrophe or tragedy of our time, I watched the news coverage (although on 9/11/01 I had gone to work, and watched the Trade Center burn from my office in Brooklyn - when I got home I watched further coverage). I could also add those tragedies of the 1960s: Dallas, Audubon Ballroom, Memphis, Los Angeles, Apollo 1. We are all geared to recall our lives by hideous signposts of death and destruction. Our parents recalled where they were when Pearl Harbor was bombed, or when FDR died. Similar tragedies were recalled by our grandparents (my mother's mother told me how in June 1904 she was visiting a school friend who was upset about missing an excursion because she got sick. While talking to her friend, they heard shouts from outside: the excursion was over, as the General Slocum burned in New York Harbor, killing over 1,000 people on board. And we will be relating this to our grandchildren one day - we were at home watching videos of the deaths of seven brave people. At a moment like this one recalls a phrase used to describe the deaths of Robert Falcon Scott and his compatriots in 1912, returning from the South Pole: They sought the secrets of the Pole, but found the secrets of God. These brave astronauts were further in the heavens than Scott and his men, but they too found God. Before I end this message, keep in mind that this tragedy/signpost habit does apply to our common interests on these boards: our great grandparents (and the oldest of our grandparents) also lived in the age of the Whitechapel Murders. So they too had at least five signposts from 1888 to keep in their collective memories. May they all forever rest in peace. Jeff
Author: Richard P. Dewar Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 01:05 am
Hi All, By nature I am a contrarian and, as such, I guess I should expect slings and arrows for expressing a minority opinion - but I feel compelled to go ahead and do this. I really do not understand why our media makes such a big deal out of this solitary event. Yes, it is a tragedy for those involved. And the loss of life is always something to mourn over. However, it seems to me, people get killed in accidents every day. Yet we do not have the networks and cable outlets devoted hour upon hour over their losses. I personally find the coverage exploitive. The cable news outlets especially love human tragedy (witness the DC sniper killings) and they love to fill the screens with human misery so we can all in some macabre sense go through the tragedy. In the United States, today, more people will die from drunk drivers tonight than in the space shuttle accident. Only the issue with drunk drivers goes on day after day and night after night. Somehow, I think if the media devoted the same attention to those accidents we'd have the same sort of draconian laws we now have against terrorism. In short, I don't really understand why people find this event so devastating. . .when awful things like this happen every day - they just aren't fodder for the news. Regards, Rich
Author: Billy Markland Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 01:37 am
Rich, I think I understand what you are getting at. As you said, tonight, more people will die due to drunken driving, firearms, and general mayhem than died today on the Columbia. Sadly as it is to say, for most of us, those are the "casualties of modern life". To me, and I dare say many others who may read this, the sky has always been the attraction. I remember lying out in the backyard when a kid, before I could even read Clarke, looking at the "man in the moon" and spending hours watching the sky, wondering what it was like up there. Or maybe just hoping to see a shooting star to make a wish? Heck, even now, when I awake early and stand shivering on the sidewalk awaiting the paperman, I still look at the moon, stars and sky and wonder about it all! And I am 47 years old now!!! Perhaps it is a case of arrested development, but maybe that is what every person sees in the loss today. These seven did as we all wanted to to do, whether we outgrew it or not, and went into space. They could say, "I was there" and to borrow a phrase, "they touched the stars". Bless them, for they lived our dreams. Billy
Author: David O'Flaherty Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 01:26 pm
Hi, Rich I also understand where you're coming from. But I think it's incorrect to compare the shuttle accident with car accidents, etc--I've yet to reach 12,000 mph in my car, though I've come close. But I think the main difference is that astronauts are explorers. Although they're confined to earth orbits for now, they're laying groundwork for future exploration and habitation of space. They're pioneers. They also promote unification between nations (Columbia was conducting experiments for several different countries--I can't remember exactly who, Germany was one). Witness the International Space Station--it's got a rocky history, but at least countries who are often at odds are attempting to work together on the ISS. And like Billy said, they're living the dreams many people share, to travel in space. I'd go in a heartbeat tomorrow if they'd let me--accident or no accident. And I think it might be worth my life to see that view (but I'm hardcore pro-NASA). So I don't think the media's playing this tragedy up. I do agree with you they do sometimes go overboard sometimes, like the mail truck standoff the other day (which was covered for hours and hours). Of course, 24 hour news channels like MSNBC and CNN aren't meant to be watched continuously. They assume their audience dips in and out of their coverage. And you can always do as I did with the standoff the other day--I switched it off and read some of Pat Cornwell's book (Rich, well-written? She jumps around so much I'm dizzy. She holds a thought about as well as a sieve). Best, Dave
Author: Terry "Dont call me Hulk" Hogan Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 01:54 pm
Rich, I understand your POV fully. This AM the talking heads were treating it as the continuing theme for "Today's" news-magazine. I had to turn it off. Dave, et. al. sum it up as eloquently as well as I could. The fact that someone felt moved enough to create a folder for the members of this community to share their perspectives is a measure of how tumultuous the event means personally, beyond media saturation. I have been reading this thread since yesterday AM, and have found comfort for my personal reflections. However, why Dave continues to read Cornwells' book is beyond comprehension.
Author: judith stock Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 02:24 pm
Unfortunately, events like these are unique enough that they become benchmarks in our lives, while car accidents happen {sadly} all the time. I find it interesting that we mark time's passage with things like this. Of course, I'm not sure how we can NOT be fascinated by watching seven people die. But THAT'S another thread. Maybe NASA has tried to make things look so easy, that we have forgotten just how damned hard this is. We are reminded when a fireball crosses the sky just a bit south of where my mother lives....... J
Author: C. Junkie Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 03:16 pm
I think that the only people not upset by this are people with no imagination or no admiration for people who have sacrificed and worked harder for their dream than I will work for anything in my life. These were brave, bright and determined people, the best of the best, chosen by NASA to go into space. These were not people coming home from McDonalds who were mowed down by a car. They were making a difference for all mankind, putting their behinds on the line to do things that I bet no one here would be willing to work as hard as these people worked to do. They were the best of us, they worked and sacrificed to break new ground. Whether the media overplays it isn�t the point: the point is these people deserve to be honored for their courage and their sacrifice. Everyone says they want to go into space but how many people really have the strength to work for it? Sitting at home with your big mac and your French fries, it is easy to scoff at their deaths and say people die everyday, what's the big deal? It is a big deal. They were a big deal. If you don�t recognize that, I feel very sorry for you. God Bless them and keep them, CJ
Author: Billy Markland Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 04:42 pm
First, thanks to David O', who articulated much better than I, what I was trying to force out! Thank you so much David!!!!!!!!! Judith, if the sciences are correct, man is the only of the animals with foreknowledge that our days are finite. Perhaps this is the reason for our fascination with those who challenge the odds and sometimes lose. It is up to better minds than I have to say whether this is true or not. C.J., I think you are right and to some extent wrong. Everyday, people go to work to do the best jobs they can. Many of them are working at jobs that they have worked their fannies off to master. Their accomplishments can not be belittled simply because they did not go into space. I, personally, think that your first thoughts regarding imagination is the key to understanding the whole reaction to the loss of those seven explorers. Yes, they were explorers, even though they did not go to Mars, the Moon or set any records. I would compare the astronauts of all countries with the explorers of old: De Gama, Columbus, Cook, Amundsen, and Scott. They had a dream, they worked, as you so correctly pointed out, to achieve their dreams. Unfortunately, as with some of the aforementioned early maritime and polar explorers, dreams run hard against the rules of nature and the dreamer loses. Thanks to all for such a fine, thought provoking thread. It is nice to see that we can talk, reflect, and trade observations without one-up- man-ship! Best of wishes, Billy
Author: Richard P. Dewar Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 05:19 pm
Hi All, Thank you for your kind words - especially Billy, David, and Terry who seemed to understand what I am saying. I think what many of you have expressed, and it explains the tumult, is that for some people the NASA explorers are heroes. And when people who are admired are struck down, whether they be astronauts, celebrities, politicians, or princesses, some people are moved. Yesterday, I was trying to check out the cable news systems to get some information about other events. However, all day long, and as some mentioned, into today, the networks and cable outlets are consumed with the story. Nothing has changed since yesterday - the ship went down, the astronauts were killed, and no one yet knows why. It seems to me exploitive to keep this going on and on. I found an article written by Harper's editor Lewis Lapham in the aftermath of the tragedy of JFK Jr dying in a plane crash. And, to some extent, his concluding remarks are perhaps appropriate pertaining to the media glut of the astronaut's tragedy: "The media is true to the market. The public craves violent sensation coupled with high-minded sentiment. People like stories - simplifying complexities of human life with a beginning, a middle, and an end. "Almost everything presented in the theater of news constitutes a kind of story. And all the characters become the property of the public's imagination. "If the writing of history resembles architecture, journalism bares comparison to a tent show. The impresarios of the press drag into their tents whatever freaks and wonders might astonish the crowd. "Their subject is the circus of human folly. And the next day they move their animals to another edition instead of another town." I share with everyone the sense that this is a sad event. And I understand those who felt a personal connection with the astronauts who feel a special sense of loss. But a part of me finds the freak show of media exploitation cruel and sickening. These broadcasters have had nothing to say for 24 hours that is "news." So, I am left to believe, since there is nothing of substance to add, that actually what is really going on here is taking advantage of this tragedy for profits. Regards, Rich
Author: Billy Markland Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 09:15 pm
Rich, browsing through the thread, I don't believe anyone after my post said they were heroes. They were individuals, who through intelligence, work, and luck, arrived at a point in their career which only few could aspire to. Does that make them heroes? Only the various individuals of the world can say. Your use of the word hero is, in my opinion, incorrect. When you say hero, I think of Achilles, Hector, David, Saul, Samson, Moses, Ernie Pyle or Hopalong Cassady to name only a few of the legends of the past. In other words, the word has connotations of larger than life. My sentiment of the people who dare do what we can't or won't, is not resentment against the media for feeding on their loss, nor is it to the populace which desires all information on all subjects ASAP. It is simply the regret that some of the best and brightest failed to accommplish their goal, which is to bring home safely all astronauts, the ones whom we live our dreams through vicariously. Rich, if you wish to argue over the number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin, please let us not clog this thread up with our to and fro. I shall be glad to respond to any disagreement at the Whine and Cheese Shop. Reflection, not argument, is what this thread is about. Thank you, Billy
Author: Richard P. Dewar Sunday, 02 February 2003 - 11:55 pm
Hi Billy, I am not arguing, my friend. I was trying to learn why people took this event so personally and why the news outlets are dedicating almost 24 hour coverage to the event. You say that you admired these souls and live your dreams vicariously through them. I wrote that I never knew that so many people regarded these individuals as heroes - and that is perhaps why people took this loss so personally. I apologize if you find the word hero offensive. It was not my intent. Rich
Author: David O'Flaherty Monday, 03 February 2003 - 10:05 am
Hi, Rich You wrote "You say that you admired these souls and live your dreams vicariously through them." I think this feeling is better known as 'inspiration'. It's not a passive emotion, quite the opposite. When I think about the shuttle astronauts, I'm moved to achieve some of my own goals (nothing to do with space exploration). I'd agree with your assessment of the media's motives in some other cases (like national coverage of car chases), but this is completely different. The aftermath of a disaster is a natural place to pause and reflect before moving on. That's what you're seeing now. Dave
Author: Richard P. Dewar Monday, 03 February 2003 - 10:19 am
Hi Dave, Thanks for the post - and I understand and appreciate your sentiments. Rich
Author: Scott E. Medine Monday, 03 February 2003 - 11:15 am
I extend my sympathy to the families of the 7 brave crew members of the Columbia. It is a true tragedy. I am just amazed at the readiness to assemble makeshift memorials. It seems that Americans seem to pick and choose those they memorialize. We want to memolialize the victims of 9/11 and the fire and police personnel who perished in their brave efforts to save others, however; the bodies of five Special Forces soldiers came back from Afghanistan after Operation Anaconda and no one even blinked an eye, in fact how many here can recall their names? True, we support our troops, but should those troops start returning in coffins will they receive the same sympathy as the Columbia 7 or the victims of 9/11. Peace, Scott
Author: Richard P. Dewar Monday, 03 February 2003 - 11:25 am
Hi Scott, No, they won't. To most Americans their story is simply not dramatic or entertaining enough to merit the respect they deserve. Americans grieved more over the death of Princess Diana and the acquittal of OJ Simpson that over the deaths of U.S. troops. Now, if those Special Forces had bothered to appear on "Survivor" or "The Batchelor," maybe we'd really care about them. Rich
Author: Chris Hintzen Monday, 03 February 2003 - 11:34 am
Hi Rich, I understand your sentiments, and Lord knows I do agree with some of them, after all how do we place One Life on a Pedestal while so many others are treaded upon beneath it. I also understand your anger at how the media seems to exploit these deaths. However, isn't what we are all doing here on this website much the same thing? I mean here we are, looking at a case where the victims have been dead for more than a Hundred Years. We have our Scholarly(and not so Scholarly) Debates on them. Some of us write books and dissertations on the case. Try and explain different facets of it. However, we're dealing with only a few unfortunate women who were murdered in a small section of town. When so many others in this same small area were murdered, tortured, or subjected to an existence where death was considered a 'blessed release'. So really to answer your questions above, perhaps you can do some soul-searching to find out why you've become so interested in solving the tragedy of these 'Unfortunates of Whitechapel', it'll probably be the same reason why so many people are interested in the tragedy of Columbia. Hi All, I myself was just a kid when Challenger went up, however I think that specific tragedy was the birth of my cynicism. Before the Challenger Tragedy I had hoped and dreamed of becoming an Astronaught. Then after watching Challenger go up in flames, and the aftermath of it,(Finding out that one of the root causes of it, was simply to save a few bucks) the cynic in me was born. I had become disillusioned with becoming an Astronaught to a program that had so many Innovators working for it, however they were, and still are, being held back because the checks were cut by penny pinching beauracrats who typically have an utter 'lack of imagination'. It was only with the foresight of men like President Kennedy that kept the Space Program on top of the game with the funding they deserved.(And it's been so long since we've had any Politicians with a vision of expoloration.) Eventhough I am a cynic, I do appreciate the comradery that a tragedy like this brings. Unfortunately it is a sad thing that it takes a tragedy for people to unite, but at least it's refreshing to see people get over their past arguements and come together. Regards, Chris H.
Author: Richard P. Dewar Monday, 03 February 2003 - 12:19 pm
Hi Chris, There is merit to your comments - and I have frequently reflected upon my interest in the case and whether such a fascination is altogether healthy or not. I have long been interested in criminal cases - murder and mayhem. But upon reflection, I notice that I never follow closely contemporary murder cases - all of my interest is from eras before I was born in the 1960s. For me, to some extent, events of the past are depersonalized. Although I can read and study about past events, it is hard for me to relate on a visceral level. I think this is why I can see mangled troops in Civil War pictures and not be as appalled as when I see U.S. troops dragged through the streets of Somalia or Iraqi children maimed from U.S. bombings. On a more immediate level, and this could be considered hypocrisy, I would find appalling if the media printed the kinds of photos of Catherine Eddowes and Mary Kelly of contemporary murder victims left in a similiar state. Perhaps, 100 years from now, I would not be as outraged at the media today playing up the fact that human body parts have been recovered. And, I suppose, by inference you are correct, that is my problem - not the culture's. Regards, Rich
Author: Spryder Monday, 03 February 2003 - 12:28 pm
This reminds me of an email I received several years ago from a very irate Indian graduate student. This person, whose name I've long forgotten, threw countless insults at me for creating a web site to investigate the deaths of "just five WHITE women" when there were tens of thousands of peasants being murdered "RIGHT NOW" in his home province in India. Throughout several paragraphs he used the Casebook as an example of the "racist and self-indulgent" West, before finally ending with a rather nasty suggestion of what I could do with myself. His point was much the same as the one voiced above... why spend so much emotional energy on Event A when Event B is inherently more terrible, and worthy of attention? There's no real answer. You pick your battles, you pick your web sites, you pick your memorials. You do what you can, when you can.
Author: Richard P. Dewar Monday, 03 February 2003 - 01:13 pm
Hi Spryder, I don't think that is quite fair. I do not have any problem with news or information. What I find disturbing is exploitation. For example, I read the NY Times today about the accident and there was virtually no more information than when the tragedy occurred - that the astronauts had been lost and that there were suspicions about one of the wings. On the internet, at MSN and CNN, the current "big news" is about the human remains recovered. I then visited the website of the Guardian and the Times of London. Interestingly, their top stories related to the tragedy are quite different from the American versions. The Guardian's top story is about retired NASA missions operations evaluator Don Nelson and the letter he sent President Bush some months ago pleading for a moratorium on space shuttle flights because a design flaw, according to him, made an Challenger like accident imminent. The London Times top story quotes a NASA report from last April that warns of the "strongest possible safety concerns" due to underfunding. I don't believe covering the Jack the Ripper case or the shuttle disaster is inappropriate or tasteless. There are Jack the Ripper websites which do little more than post the photographs of victims - and I find these exploitive. This website's ambition is to make people understand the case, its historical context. Quite frankly - we all can learn from this website. That is my problem with the U.S. media coverage of the space shuttle disaster - since the early hours of the event nothing has been learned. Yet the experts drone on and on about the lurid details of body parts, what the pilots must have thought in their last moments, how the families feel in this hour of sorrow. It took me looking up on some British sites to get good information on the more relevant question - why this happened. Regards, Rich
Author: Chris Hintzen Monday, 03 February 2003 - 01:35 pm
Hi Spryder, I totally agree with you. There are just certain things that peek our interests. Why? Well why do some people like Ice Cream and others like Yogurt? Who knows? We can't always worry about every bad thing that happens in the world. There aren't enough seconds in the day for us to fix every problem this world has. Yes it's a flawed world, but hey we're human, we have our flaws. And if we didn't, well we wouldn't be human anymore. I see it that the reason people respond to tragedies such as Columbia, or even here on the Casebook our interest with 'Saucy Jacky', is that there are certain problems that we want to find a solution to now. Now sure there are other things that seem more important to others, but hey that's for them to fix.(Hey if they're going to say there's a problem, then why don't they try and do something about it?) Because we can't solve all the problems of the world. But we can solve a few. Regards, Chris H.
Author: Spryder Monday, 03 February 2003 - 01:46 pm
I actually agree that the British press coverage has been somewhat superior on this occasion, at least in the first few hours following the tragedy. I found myself watching the BBC coverage on Saturday instead of the usual 24-hour cable news networks. Their superiority in that case is probably due to a combination of their being less emotionally-involved in the story and their tendency not to "dumb-down" their news reports for the lowest common denominator. However your statement that "since the early hours of the event nothing has been learned" couldn't be further from the truth. The public already knows a great deal about the various system failures that took place on board the craft, the sixty-degree temperature variance between the left and right wings during re-entry, the computer re-calibrations which tried to correct this variance, the fact that a piece of insulation or ice struck the left wing during take-off, etc. When this first happened on Saturday morning I remember remarking to Ally that it would be years before we knew what caused this accident. I based that largely on the experience with Challenger, when NASA secured a near-complete press blackout and held back the details of their data and investigation for months on end. That has certainly not been the case with Columbia - NASA is placing most, if not all, of their information right on the table for the public to see. Whether or not the media is going a good job disseminating that information, I suppose is up to the individual to interpret. You obviously have very little respect for the American news media - perhaps rightfully so. But you do seem to be watching an awful lot of it... Why not just change the channel?
Author: Scott E. Medine Monday, 03 February 2003 - 02:55 pm
In case anyone is interested. Oct. 8, 2002, Marine Lance Cpl. Antonio J. Sledd, 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit, ambush, KIA, Kuwait Oct. 2, 2002, Army Sgt. 1st Class Mark Jackson, 1st Special Forces Group, bomb explosion, KIA, Philippines August 6, 2002, Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher James Speer, U.S. Army Special Operations Command, KIA, Afghanistan (Died of wounds sustained July 27.) June 12, 2002, Air Force Tech. Sgt. Sean M. Corlew, 16th Special Operations Wing, accidental aircraft crash, Afghanistan Air Force Staff Sgt. Anissa A. Shero, 16th Special Operations Wing, accidental aircraft crash, Afghanistan Army Sgt. 1st Class Peter P. Tycz II, 3rd Special Forces Group, accidental aircraft crash May 19, 2002, Sgt. Gene Arden Vance, Jr., West Virginia National Guard's 19th Special Forces Group, KIA, Afghanistan April 15, 2002, Staff Sgt. Brian T. Craig, 710th Explosive Ordnance Detachment, Explosion, Afghanistan Staff Sgt. Justin J. Galewski, 710th Explosive Ordnance Detachment, Explosion, Afghanistan Sgt. Jamie O. Maugans, 710th Explosive Ordnance Detachment, Explosion, Afghanistan Sgt. 1st Class Daniel A. Romero, 19th Special Forces Group, Explosion, Afghanistan Mar. 27, 2002, Navy Chief Petty Officer Matthew J. Bourgeois, SEAL Team, KIA, Afghanistan Mar. 4, Army Spc. Marc A. Anderson, 75th Ranger Regt., KIA, Afghanistan Air Force Tech. Sgt. John A. Chapman, 24th STS, KIA, Afghanistan Army Pfc. Matthew A. Commons, 75th Ranger Regt., KIA, Afghanistan Army Sgt. Bradley S. Crose, 75th Ranger Regt., KIA, Afghanistan Air Force Sr. Airman Jason D. Cunningham, 38th Rescue Squadron, KIA, Afghanistan Navy Petty Officer 1st Class Neil C. Roberts, SEAL Team 2, KIA, Afghanistan Army Sgt. Philip J. Svitak, 2nd Bn., 160th SOAR, KIA, Afghanistan Mar. 2, Army CWO Stanley L. Harriman, 3rd SFG, Friendly Fire, Afghanistan Feb. 22, Sgt. Thomas Allison, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Staff Sgt. James Dorrity, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Chief Warrant Officer 2 Jody Egnor, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Maj. Curtis Feistner, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Sgt. Jeremy Foshee, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Staff Sgt. Kerry Frith, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Capt. Bartt Owens, crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Staff Sgt. Bruce Rushforth, Jr., crash, E. Co., 160th Special Operations Aviation Regt., Philippines Master Sgt. William McDaniel, crash, 320th Special Tactics Squadron, Philippines Staff Sgt. Juan Ridout, crash, 320th Special Tactics Squadron, Philippines Feb. 13, Army Spc. Jason A. Disney, heavy equipment accident, 7th Transportation Battalion, Afghanistan Jan. 20, Staff Sgt. Walter F. Cohee III, crash, HHS 361, Afghanistan Sgt. Dwight J. Morgan, crash, HHS 361, Afghanistan Jan. 9, Capt. Matthew W. Bancroft, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Capt. Daniel G. McCollum, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Gunnery Sgt. Stephen L. Bryson, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Staff Sgt. Scott N. Germosen, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Sgt. Nathan P. Hays, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Lance Cpl. Bryan P. Bertrand, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Sgt. Jeannette L. Winters, crash, VMGR-352, Pakistan Jan. 4, Sgt. 1st Class Nathan R. Chapman, KIA in a firefight (the first U.S. soldier killed by hostile fire in Afghanistan), 5th Special Forces Group. Dec. 5, 2001, Master Sgt. Jefferson D. Davis, KIA, 3rd Bn., 5th SFG, Afghanistan Sgt. 1st Class Daniel H. Petithory, KIA, 3rd Bn., 5th SFG, Afghanistan Staff Sgt. Brian C. Prosser, KIA, 3rd Bn., 5th SFG, Afghanistan Nov. 29, Pvt. Giovanny Maria, cause under investigation, 10th Mt. Div., Uzbekistan Nov. 27, Navy Tech. 2nd Class Randy G. Whitaker, fell overboard, USS Russell, Indian Ocean Nov. 25, Officer Johnny M. Spann, KIA, CIA, Afghanistan Nov. 7, Navy Machinistâ��â��s Mate Bryant L. Davis, USS Kitty Hawk, N. Arabian Gulf Oct. 19, Army Spec. Jonn Edmunds, Helicopter Accident, Pakistan Army Pfc. Kristofor Stonesifer, Helicopter Accident, Pakistan Oct. 10, Air Force Master Sgt. Evander Andrews, Forklift Accident, Qatar Lest we forget And to my brothers in arms..... 75th Ranger Regiment Army Spc. Marc A. Anderson, 75th Ranger Regt., KIA, Afghanistan...... 20 years old Army Pfc. Matthew A. Commons, 75th Ranger Regt., KIA, Afghanistan..... 19 years old Army Sgt. Bradley S. Crose, 75th Ranger Regt., KIA, Afghanistan........ 22 years old St. Jude pray for us. Peace, Scott
Author: David O'Flaherty Monday, 03 February 2003 - 03:07 pm
It's always "either" "or", isn't it?
Author: Spryder Monday, 03 February 2003 - 03:12 pm
Thanks for posting these names, Scott. Did you find this list on a web site, or did you compile it yourself?
Author: Scott E. Medine Monday, 03 February 2003 - 03:14 pm
I got it from the local American Legion last week. Scott
Author: Scott E. Medine Monday, 03 February 2003 - 03:15 pm
The Red Cross can also provide a list. Scott
Author: Spryder Monday, 03 February 2003 - 03:21 pm
Thanks, I'll check those out. Always a good idea to have a list like this on hand when considering the cost of future U.S. military intervention anywhere in the world.
Author: Richard P. Dewar Monday, 03 February 2003 - 03:38 pm
I agree with Spryder's comment that the U.S. commercial media appeals to the "lowest common denominator." That is why NPR gave out the facts you have stated within four hours of the tragedy - in a report that lasted about 15 minutes while the commercial networks dribble it out between replays of the explosions, details of the collection of mutilated remains, and pictures of weeping widows and somber colleagues. I tune in every hour and look up on the internet waiting for information about the impending conquest of Iraq or to find out what the government's answer is to the charge that NASA officials were warned in advance of the imminence tragedy (as reported in the British press, the American media seems unwilling to address the topic). I guess that doesn't make as interesting a picture, though. Rich
Author: Spryder Monday, 03 February 2003 - 04:10 pm
I don't think that all U.S. commercial media plays to the lowest common denominator. NPR, as you said yourself, has several excellent, in-depth news magazine programs. I would also add the various C-SPAN channels to that list, as well as PBS and, to a lesser extent, CNN. But in the end, its all business (even for the non-profits). Each channel is marketed toward a different audience, with different expectations. You may be offended by reports of "mutilated human remains" but there are countless others who are interested in those very same reports - some out of morbid curiosity, yes, but others out of a genuine concern that the families of these seven astronauts can plan a proper burial (particularly in the case of Ilan Ramon, whose remains are to be handled according to strict Jewish code). But that's the beauty of modern cable... if you don't like what you see, turn to a different channel. There's bound to be one channel that fits you. If you don't like any of them, upgrade to premium cable and order BBC! That's it from me - Richard if you want to discuss this further, let's take it to email. This thread should stick to Columbia posts only I'd think.
Author: Brian Schoeneman Monday, 03 February 2003 - 05:18 pm
Stephen's got a good point. I'm extremely cynical when it comes to the media, mainly because I plan on working with the little parasites when I finish my degree. All of the media outlets are in it for one thing - ratings. They kept showing the shots of Columbia for one reason and one reason only: They had them, and the needed to fill the airtime, and they were getting viewers. (Okay, I lied. 3 reasons. I can't count. ) When something big like this happens, they get ratings bumps, and they keep showing as much as they've got over and over and over and over because people tune in to see it. They point to the bumps when they do their advertising sales and sell more. It's all business to them, and that's what drives EVERYTHING they do. In any event, I was very touched by the Columbia disaster primarily because it reminded me so much of Challenger. I was 8 and in 3rd grade and my teacher had been a semi-finalist in the "Teacher in Space Program" so we were watching it live. When it blew up, none of us understood what happened, until she ran crying from the room. Then it hit us. It was a big deal. All those memories came crashing back when I saw Columbia go down. That was my first taste of real "news" when I was growing up. Nothing had been that big before. And I also was angry at myself, because I predicted to my girlfriend two weeks ago when Columbia went up that I thought it was going to be destroyed somehow - I expected terrorists to take a shot at it on landing because of Col. Ramon. I felt guilty for being right, although for the wrong reasons. And I felt angry because of all of the cuts in the space program that have held up the progress in the new shuttle design process. I really hope that this causes space exploration to be a bigger issue than it is now. At least some good can come from tragedy. And I also think that the wall to wall coverage is irresponsible when we are on the brink of war - how many of you know that Saddam Hussein's bodyguard just defected to Israel and has given the weapon's inspectors new sites to verify? I'd link to it, but it's not working - pull up the Drudge Report and look for the "Saddam bodyguard warns of secret stockpile" article. B
Author: judith stock Monday, 03 February 2003 - 11:33 pm
Rich, Unfortunately, you speak the truth; the American "news" services, excluding a couple, are seeking ratings and have become "entertainment" news, rather than true news gathering organisations. I'm old enough to remember when the news was considered a public service, and news divisions of networks were not expected to "pay for themselves". The reporting of newsworthy events was regarded as a necessary, and correct, thing to do, regardless of how much commercial time was sold. Oh, for the days of Ed Murrow and Walter Cronkite......now we get talking heads that wouldn't recognise real news if it bit 'em in the ass. And Stephen is right.... enough of this on the Columbia thread. J