|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Analysis of "Dear Boss" and "Lusk" letters
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Letters: General Discussion:
Analysis of "Dear Boss" and "Lusk" letters
Author: David Cohen Radka
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 03:05 pm |        | Mr. M,
"ha-ha" as symbolism referring to Swallow Gardens? How so? Please show us a previous use of this particular symbolic reference. Otherwise, how could we be sure that the connection you offer is not purely arbitrary? In other words, I might say that "ha-ha" refers to the particular and singular condition of my moist navel before I've removed the lint from it after having worked half a day in my back yard whilst wearing my New York Giants sweatshirt without an undershirt. See what I mean?
Thank you.
David |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 03:10 pm | | such eloquence  |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 05:21 pm | | Hi David:
A ha ha is a device used by English landscape gardeners such as Capability Brown. It was a ditch meant to stop the deer or other animals being able to wander onto the grounds near the stately mansion, but when you looked out from the house you couldn't see the ditch, you saw an unbroken expanse of land leading up to the folly or obelisk or tower that m'lord erected in the distance to show the vast expanse of his property. I don't know whether this is what Bob Maloney means by ha ha referring to Swallow Gardens but the foregoing definition of "ha ha" is factual, not a joke.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 07:06 pm | | Hi Jon,
No I was not making it up. I will admit it
is a long and complicated process to explain
how to interpret some of the symbolism however.
For example, when he writes (Good luck) he
is not wishing the police or anyone else good luck
in catching him. Rather, this applies more to the timing of the intended spell and the good fortune
that he is seeking. Even the postscript, set at
right angles to the rest of the letter, has a
superstitious feel to it, reminiscent of ritual
marks engraved by carpenters on the walls of buildings around the same time period. These
too were to protect against bad luck and used
as "good luck" symbols.
Furthermore, much of what we know about this
case can be directly traced to this letter.
The farthings, "Sailor Jack", the apron, the flower etc. were all symbolic offerings for "Jack". The deerstalker hats represented elk/antlers/horns, also symbolizing protection. And the murder sites themselves were being used for their gateway and passage
symbolism. Two of the Runes inscribed on Mary Kelly's wall are Ehwaz and Thurisa. Both are highly significant to this case.
The prostitutes were being sacrificed to invoke the guardian spirit of master criminal and thief Jack Sheppard. He was a celebrated and notorious housebreaker and prison-breaker. He was also very popular with prostitutes and was from Spitalfields as well.
A thorough understanding of his story fully explains many of the mysteries in this case.
This includes the missing keys and why prostitutes were chosen to be sacrificed.
And being that "Jack" was hanged, it probably explains why the women were strangled. It helps explain why Joseph Isaacs stole the watch and helps us to identify him as Astrakhan Man.
It explains the reason James Brown saw a man
with a long coat almost down to his heels near
the chandler's shop and suggests to me at least,
that the chandler's shop knife found on Whitechapel Road was in fact the murder weapon used on Liz Stride. (with about 20 people testifying at the inquest from Berner Street,
didn't anyone wonder where the night man from
the chandler's shop was? Remember, James Brown
said he went to the shop to get some dinner and 'stayed there three or four minutes, and then went back home'. Where was he then, as well? Furthermore, both Dr. Blackwell and Dr. Phillips testified that the chandler's shop knife could have caused her injuries.)
Everything about that night on Berner Street was ritualistic. From the different men ceremonially walking her around. To the red and white flower and being turned around while screaming three times. Even the level of intoxication by her attacker is important. Sadly, we also know that one of her killers says chillingly to her, 'you would say anything but your prayers'.
Frankly, I think it is hard to discount
the theory that this was a gang of killers who were being initiated into the Black Arts by a hex-master doctor. Firstly, while the level of surgical skill displayed from killing to killing differed, the killer's 'signature' continued to remain the same. Second, the descriptions of the killers varied too widely for there to have been only one knife man.
When I first became interested in this case about four months ago, I attempted to write a software program that would produce a baseline 'picture' of JtR for me to work with. The shape of the function I used (exponential) is often associated with time-decay phenomena and would allow me to assign a higher "weight" to those descriptions that were closest to the time of death. It didn't take long to realize that it was highly unlikely we were dealing with only one man.
Rob |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 07:28 pm | | A boundary to a garden, sunk fence, narrow passage, moat, walled ditch, etc.
Rob |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 07:33 pm | | Good grief Rob you seem to have solved more mysteries in 4 months with this one letter than many have in 30 yrs with all the known facts.
....are you going to write a book? |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 07:46 pm | | If you don't like that symbolism, then
take the candle symbolism. Or you don't
like that either? The point is - they were
using passage/gateway symbolism.
Rob |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 07:54 pm | | Hi Jon,
Thanks Jon, - I think.
No book thank you.
Jon - try to find whatever you can on Jack
Sheppard. You will find it interesting.
Rob |
Author: Christopher T George
Sunday, 17 June 2001 - 09:22 pm | | Hi, Rob:
I hope you can make your symbolism fit in with Tom Slemen's Sumerian symbolism. For myself, I will take all your symbolism with a big pinch of salt thanks.
All the best
Chris George |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 05:47 am | | The words underlined are indeed significant and point us to a solution of the mystery. The words: RIGHT and RED can be anagrammed to: G HIRE RDT, the last three letters standing for Roger Doughty Tichborne. If we presume therefore that Thomas Castro aka Arthur Orton was indeed Sir Roger, then we are looking for a man, probably Australian and with an initial "G" who "hired" the claimant at some time during his life as a butcher or bush ranger. The two references to HA-HA obviously refer to the dry ditch surrounding the Tichborne family home. I now leave it to our Australian correspondents to trace the true killer.
Chris: I did contract the Blair family tree a little: Eric was Our Leaders grand-uncle and the Orwell Papers (currently in the possession of noted researcher Paula Bugg) show connections with the Rhodes Scholar conspiracy to ensnare the entire world under the rule of the British Roayal family. Remember you heard it here first. |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 08:54 am | | Hi Robert,
You wrote:
'The prostitutes were being sacrificed to invoke the guardian spirit of master criminal and thief Jack Sheppard.'
You may be interested in the following passages, taken from the autobiography of Walter Weedon Grossmith (who, as Peter Birchwood will no doubt take great delight in telling you, if I don't, I once had down as a potential JtR suspect):
'About the year 1896 I commissioned the late Joseph Hatton to write a play for me on the life of Jack Sheppard the Housebreaker. I was perhaps influenced by many friends who declared I had a strong resemblance in face and stature to that gentleman. I suppose there must have been a likeness in a way, for Sir Melville Macnaghton [sic], the "boss" of the Criminal Investigation Department of Scotland Yard, has my portrait as Sheppard hanging next to the print of the real Sheppard, taken from the original portrait painted of him in the condemned cell by Sir James Thornhill, a commission from King George I!...... For a whole year I instructed Hatton in crime and criminals, and I never saw a man so thoroughly steeped in the knowledge of it as Joseph Hatton was, and eventually what he did n't know of Sheppard and those famous scoundrels, Jonathan Wild and the City Marshal of that time, was n't worth knowing ..… We played the piece on trial at the Pavilion Theatre, Mile End (then called the Drury Lane of the East), for a month in April, 1898, with a very fine production.'
In among these reminiscences, there is also the following passage:
‘I possessed a short but wonderful account of the life of Turpin, published a year or two after he was hanged….. The book printed all the dreadful language that Turpin uttered during his robberies. I could scarcely keep it in MY library, so I made a present of it to George R. Sims, as he has a collection of criminal literature, being a great student of criminology.’
Love,
Caz |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 09:23 am | | Hi, Peter:
Just to be absolutely clear on these fine details, I assume that "the British Roayal family" that you mention are the illegitimate branch of the present British Royal family, am I right? And am I correct that you did mean Arthur Orton not Joe Orton, or do I oughten not to mention the late playwright and author of "Prick Up Your Ears"? 
Chris George |
Author: Seth Bock
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 09:50 am | | Dear Rob,
I find your line of inquiry to be interesting. There is a great scene in the moving pie (as in 3.14...)where the teacher tells the protege that one can find any particular number (or symbol for that matter) everywhere. If you want to see the number nine, you will see it everwhere you look. Of course, at the exclusion of all else. I have walked that fine line in (publicly) supporting the thesis that Lewis Carroll might have been the Ripper. I think symbolism is very important in a case lacking hard evidence, but not at the expense of rational thinking. I wish you the best in your line of inquiry and suggest reading Richard Wallace's books, if you haven't already. You might get a kick out them. The reason I make this suggestion, aside from wanting to support another fringe theorist, is that there are remarkable similarities between your remarks and Wallace. One interesting note is that Carroll (Dodgson) noted, in his diary (several years before the Ripper murders), that he had found news paper clippings about John Sheppard exactly 100 years after the murders (to the day!) He went on to calculate the probability of this coincidence. Dodgson also owned many books on black magic, masonism, surgery... He also took fancy to painting things red, if you recall.
Again, the symbolic world is dangerous insofar as it enters the world of myth. But for those who think the Ripper wrote letters, it is not far fetched to suppose that the Ripper was aware and deliberate in weaving his own myth.
Food for thought,
Good luck
Seth |
Author: Robert Maloney
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 10:16 am | | Chris,
So you do not think the Dear Boss letter writer was implying that he was connected to the underworld?
And you don't think he was attempting to make an ink made from human blood? (proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle for the citric acid content)
Would anyone know that without the right mixture of Citric acid and sour salt that blood would go thick like glue? This journalist just stumbled on something that black magicians do when they are summoning or spell casting right?
And when he says they won't fix me JUST YET - this does not indicate to you that he has control over the events? This proves he was waiting for something to happen before the murders would stop.
And you don't think that the letter was a black magic spell meant to cause fear on a wide scale (CNA) so that the government would offer a large reward?
And you don't think that when he writes 'job'
that this is a double meaning for spell?
And when he writes 'work' that this does not mean
'craftwork'?
Do you think that he playfully ended the letter with good luck for no reason at all?
Do you know anything at all about folk magic or black magic?
And the postscript placement at right angles was just for jolly?
And of course a journalist would say - keep this letter back till I do a bit more work, then give it out straight. That is a journalist?
Do you know why he said 'clip' the lady's ear off?
Did you know that hex-master doctors carry in their bible box CLIPPERS and seam RIPPERS?
And that they are quite fond of red stones, seals, horseshoe pins, and the color combinations black/red/white. (Astrakhan man was just Hutchinson's imagination right?)
And did you know that hex-master doctors love to 'work' with Runes?
Do you have any idea what Runes look like?
Do you know what they mean if you saw one?
And so the M shaped letter on Mary Kelly's wall was not a Rune? Nor the P shaped letter with the stem? They were not the Runes Ehwaz and Thurisa?
And so when the Dear Boss letter writer says - they say I'am a doctor now ha ha - that was just a coincidence ?
And when the 'Saucy Jacky' post card gets all of the details of the murder exactly correct - that too was a jounalist? Those journalists did not have that high of a success rate as you know.
And when the Dear Boss letter writer says (curse it No luck yet) that didn't mean anything? That couldn't possibly refer to the reward that the Vigilance Committee was trying to extort from the Government?
And the "Jack" in Jack the Ripper trade name was not referring to Jack Sheppard?
Do you know anything at all about his story?
And do you not believe the murders were committed near gateways and passage ways for any symbolic purpose? Just another coincidence?
And this gang was not employing "Jack" symbolism?
Did you ever take the time to find an old English dictionary and a slang dictionary to look up Jack.
You might have noticed many of the offerings and symbolism used in this case if you had.
Did you know that Black magicians are very fond of
the dictionary? Symbolism is very important to them.
And you don't believe there is anything symbolic in deerstalker hats and "sailor hats"?
You are obviously unaware of the importance of the elk/antlers/horns symbolism.
Do you know what the various marks on the victims mean? Do you think they were just random?
Do you know the "Mass" that was performed on Mary Kelly? And what they exactly did to her?
Do you think the name "Mary" had anything to do with it? And what the reason for the fire was?
Do you know why Isaacs had a fiddle in his room?
And why he stayed in Little Paternoster Row?
Do you know the significance of Paternoster to this case?
Do you know why Isaacs stole that watch?
And do you know why he was wearing the Astrakhan
coat? Do you know what his dress was stereotypical of?
And what does Drury Lane have to do with this case?
Do you know why Hutchinson said every single word that he said to the police?
Did you do any research on any of these people?
Did you find out who worked or lived in the various Public Houses?
Did you check to see what families were related to each other?
Do you know the Kosminski/Woolf connection?
Did you know that there was a Kosminski whose full name was just 'Kosminski' as two different men write. Not Aaron, not Martin, just Kosminski?
Or the Isaacs and Abrahams connection?
Or Aarons and Isaacs?
Do you know what public houses the Isaacs family was connected to and its significance.
And that Aarons later runs a pub called "The Horns".
Or even down to the relationships between peripheral figures like Reeves and Batchelor.
Do you know what families lived on the
stretch of Rosemary Lane closest to Swallow Gardens? (I used Garden to Garden symbolism for my rather hasty Ha-ha post-I apoligize)
Do you think Rosemary Lane was selected for absolutely no reason at all?
Does any of this matter?
Did you write any software programs entering all the murders while using a computerized mapping system in order to find the center of distribution of the murders?
And set up a database to cross reference an address? For example, if I type in S. Kosminski-
I will get 170 Aldersgate Sreet. But if I type in
170 Aldersgate Street - I will get J. Woolf and
S. Kosminski.
Did you try to track down the night man at the corner chandler's shop to see who might have been
working there?
But of course you don't think candle making had anything to do with these murders.
And the chandler's shop knife found on Whitechapel road was not the murder weapon of course? And do you know why it was placed there and who they were hoping would pick it up?
Do you know anything about knife symbolism in folk or black magic?
Do you know how to properly read expert testimony?
Do you know how to tell when an expert slants his testimony because of a predilection or the fear of failure? (Dr. Blackwell-'I'am told that slaughterers always use a sharp pointed instrument'.....)
Do you know how to properly read Long and his inspector's testimony and how to determine that Halse gave the more likely version that appeared on the wall?
Do you know how to find the internal psychological consistencies in the statement 'The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing'.
Did you look for any double meanings?
Do you know that there is nothing wrong with that statement? And that it was left purposely incomplete.
Do you know what technique to use to help complete the statement?
And finally, you believe that this was the work of one man I suppose? No gangsters, no black magic, no sacrifice, no horns, no altar, no symbolism, no Vigilance Committee involvement, no Dear Boss, no Lusk letter, no conflicting eyewitness descriptions, no rituals, and no hex-master doctor with his seals, horseshoe pins, holywater, clippers, seam rippers, red/black/white color combinations, Runes, and red stones.
So I will leave you with one last bit of symbolism that I just know you will love. Folk magicians, when they wanted something to go through the mail safely and fast, would use the Rune Algiz. It is the main Rune for protection and is represented by horns/antlers. Now take a look at the Saucy Jacky postcard. Those are not horns, are they?
Forensic psychology is a field that combines general psychology with statistics. I see now why I went into the statistics branch because I did not enjoy any of this writing. My hats off to those of you that write with such ease.
Good luck and goodbye.
Rob
And Chris, my forensic psychology background lets me know that I touched a nerve. Sorry.
I only started reading about this case to pass some time. Enough time has passed. |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 10:32 am | | Hi, Rob:
Are you saying you touched a nerve in me? Sorry to disappoint you.
Yes, I know what a Rune looks like. I am a published historian.
Now, then, Rob, there were thousands of people who lived in London in 1888, hundreds of people involved with the case in terms of witnesses who saw something or thought they saw something, scores of different hats and types of garments, etc., etc. Yet, Rob, you will have us believe every detail in the case has something important to say about your theory and how the (as you suppose it) killers committed the murders.
Rob, the sheer length of the catalogue of details that you list shows us you cannot be right and that much of what you list has nothing at all to do with the murders. So just keep listing, Rob, and continue to make you and your theory look even more ridiculous. Just my personal view.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: John Omlor
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 11:40 am | | Hi Rob,
I've enjoyed your creative reading of the "Dear Boss" letter. I remember the days when symbolic criticism was all the rage in literary analysis -- teachers used to tell their students that the red rose outside the prison-house at the beginning of The Scarlet Letter stood for "life" or "the promise of renewal" or "love always coming with pain and thorns" or "the possibility of beauty in the cruel world of human punishment" or whatever. And then students would have to remember the one the teacher told them and write it down on the test when the question "What does the rose outside the prison-house in the beginning of The Scarlet Letter stand for?" Otherwise, they would get the answer "wrong." This is, of course, just a form of literary and pedagogical fascism, since that is not, after all, how words work or how reading works, and meaning, as you so clearly demonstrate, is as much the product of the reader (and his desire and imagination) as it is of the writer. And meaning, as you also so ably demonstrate, always exceeds intention and does not remain stable over time. A letter, it turns out, never fully arrives at its destination, even if it eventually does get to the person to whom it is addressed. Because the full meaning of the utterance never quite arrives unmediated and without intervening acts of creative interpretation, such as your own. So there are always already other readings that remain (despite our best attempts at soundness and completeness and at accounting for all possible remainders). There are, of course, completely different ways to read this little letter.
Like this one:
Dear Boss: (to the Central News Office -- the Press, as it were, the powers that be... and maybe my own boss as well, that would be funny, huh?)
I keep on hearing the police have caught me but they won't fix me yet. I read in the papers that the police have arrested the Ripper -- but I'm him, so you are all wrong and you won't catch me any time soon. I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about being on the right track. You guys aren't even close. You're so cold it's funny. You're not "right," -- correct, that is -- you're hopelessly wrong. That's why I'm writing, to gloat. That joke about leather Apron gave me real fits. And you know I love it when you pick out some poor guy and claim he's the Ripper (me) and everyone goes running after him. All because you found some apron near one of the crime scenes and the guy has a nasty temper allegedly. It's really pathetic what straws you clutch at and it makes me laugh, really. I am down on whores and I shant quit ripping them till I do get buckled. Oh, and just in case you are completely dim and haven't gotten the point yet, I have something against prostitutes and I'm killing and gutting them and I'm going to continue to kill and gut them until you catch me. Got it? Grand work the last job was. The last murder was a real doozy. Let me tell you about it just so you know for sure that I'm the Ripper like I'm saying I am. I gave the lady no time to squeal. I cut the last woman right across her throat and she didn't even have time to yell. How can they catch me now. Do you all have any idea how to catch me? I don't think so. I love my work and want to start again. I really like this Ripping thing and am ready to do it again. I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with it but it went thick like glue and I cant use it. I want to tell you that I saved some blood (red stuff, get it?) from the last murder and was going to use it, but it congealed and became useless (of course, if I really am a hoaxing journalist and don't happen to have any victim's blood lying around, this is very convenient). Red ink is fit enough I hope. ha ha Red, you know, like blood. Get it? I found red ink and that's sort of like blood. Pretty clever, huh? Well, it made me laugh. "ha ha." See? (And of course, if I am an enterprising journalist, all this talk of ink and colored ink and writing and difficulty writing makes much more sense -- if I'm going to be melodramatic about something and I'm a journalist, I'm likely to melodramatic about something to do with writing.) The next job I do I shall clip the lady's ears off and send them to the police officers just for the jolly wouldn't you. The next time I kill a whore I'll cut her ears off just to prove how clever and nuts I am and I think that'll be fun -- 'cause I'm crazy, see? (Of course, if I am an enterprising journalist, I might just have slipped out of my crazed killer character there for a moment when I wrote "police officers" instead of one of a number of less formal and more streetwise terms that would match my punctuation errors and colloquial usages elsewhere in the letter. Whoops. Also, of course, I've said nothing at all in this whole letter that anyone, whether they had killed anyone or not couldn't as easily have said in a letter composed quickly and for a good laugh.) Keep this letter back till I do a bit more work, then give it out straight. Hold onto this letter and when I kill again you can release it to the public. (Of course, as an enterprising journalist, I might want to politely suggest that if you wait until the Ripper strikes again and then release this letter, sales will go through the roof. It'll be spectacular!) My knife's so sharp I want to get to work right away if I get a chance. Oh yeah, in case you've forgotten, I'm the guy killing the whores with a knife and I want to do it again. (Got to keep the reader focused on the topic and end with a big finish, like any good writer, right?) Good luck. Good luck trying to catch me. (This guy is brazen, readers will love that - laughing in the face of authority -- just the kind of thing our readers will delight in.) Yours truly Because it never hurts to be polite, even if you are a crazed serial killer murdering whores -- or perhaps because you have a cynical and jaded sense of irony, like some newspaper reporter or something. Jack the Ripper How's that for enterprising? It has echoes of nursery rhymes and violence and will touch something in the collective psyche of the fascinated world. But better add a self-conscious joke. Don't mind me giving the trade name. That should do it. See, I have a job. I'm a ripper. It's a trade. Like journalism. Or bartending. Jack, the bartender. Jack the Ripper. Get it? It's a "trade name." And then, as I was folding this thing off to send it, I thought of something more to say. wasn't good enough to post this before I got all the red ink off my hands curse it. "Out damned spot." No, seriously, I was just about to send this and noticed my hands were now stained with red ink from writing it. It looked like blood. This was pretty cool. I thought I should mention it, for effect, so I added this little PS. Pretty neat, huh? I picked up whatever was nearby to write it with. No luck yet. They say I'm a doctor now ha ha. I'm laughing at you. You can tell I’m actually doing it, because I underlined it here. Laughing in the face of you "experts." People will love that. And now you are so clueless and are so at a loss for any ideas or clues that you're just guessing that I might be a doctor. Pretty sad. But it does make me laugh "ha ha" at how pathetic this whole investigation has been so far.
So that's another possible reading, and there are no hidden societies or black magic spells or hex-masters or secret symbols or even a single symbol at all. It's possible, anyway.
Though I will readily admit that my reading is not nearly as much fun as yours.
But now they are both here at least.
Thanks for reading,
--John
PS: You do realize, Rob, that to claim that if this letter was written by a journalist, he was also a murderer, is a huge and invalid logical leap. I could have written this thing easy, without killing even an ant on my kitchen floor. This letter might or might not have been written by a killer or the killer, but it certainly is not a document that could only have been written by a killer. Not in any way, shape, or form. Even you have to admit that. Right? |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 12:18 pm | | Hi, Rob:
Let me apologize for the tone of my last post which was on the nasty, sarcastic side. Unusual for me. I am usually a mild-mannered chap as most people here will tell you and I do not engage in flame wars. I do not though appreciate being lectured to, and I felt that you were lecturing to me in the post to which I was replying. Excuse me. I do find your theory out of the ballpark but that did not in the least excuse my acid reply.
Hi, John:
Excellent post about the arbitrariness of symbology. Thank you for making the point that the meaning of any kind of symbolism is in the eye of the beholder. I liked the term you used for people who insist that such symbols can only be read one way, "literary and pedagogical fascism."
One thing that I did not react to in Rob's long post was his statement that "the 'Saucy Jacky' post card gets all of the details of the murder
exactly correct." Incorrect, Rob. The postcard gives a vague description of a murder and could in any case, most authorities agree, have even been written sometime Sunday after news about the murder was circulating, or even on the morning of Monday, October 1. There being then two deliveries in London each day, the p.c. could have been posted in time to arrive for the afternoon delivery on October 1.
John, excellent catch that the term "the police officers" is out of character with the slangy mock criminal and melodramatic phraseology of the rest of the September 25 Dear Boss letter. This is the type of analysis that we are doing in our page-by-page study of the Maybrick Diary, and I am glad to see you applying it here too.
Best regards
Chris George
(Back to my usual mild-mannered self ) |
Author: Robert Maloney
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 03:37 pm | | Chris,
My theories are as follows:
(1)The Whitechapel murders were committed by a gang which included a so-called hex-master doctor.
(2)The Dear Boss letter was written by one or more of the killers and was a black magic spell.
And much of the symbolism used by the killers was "Jack" symbolism which helps to confirm the Dear Boss letter as coming from the killers. (A farthing, Jack the Sailor, a seal etc. are all "Jack" symbolism)
(3)The killers did engage in Black Magic practices by using rituals and symbolism.
(4)They were inspired by, and attempting to summon, Jack Sheppard.
(5)Some of what we know in this case ("Sailor like" and deerstalker hats) was given to us by the gang themselves through associates like Hutchinson in order to flaunt their invincibility in the same manner that Jack Sheppard did.
(6)The Vigilance Committee was involved with the gang and were attempting to extort money from the government. The Dear Boss letter was in fact a ransom note.
(7)Certain people should be closely looked at or suspected: Aarons, Bachert, and Isaacs to name a few.
(8)The theory that Jack the Ripper was a Polish Jew is mis-leading as there were other gang members and Christian symbolism used.
(9)Aaron Kosminski was most likely not the infamous 'Kosminski'.(this can be arrived at through probability analysis) And Kosminski was probably his only name.
And it is possible that Kosminski was a "scapegoat" for the gang and not that important overall.
(10) The saying on the wall was 'The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing'.
Chris,
I appreciate your last reply but I must respond with this: You may disagree violently with my opinions but if someone refers to them as ridiculous then they are either insecure or childish.
Mr Omlor, the major difference between your theoretical Dear Boss analysis and mine is the difference between circumlocution and wit.
Through the years I have had conversations with bank robbers, black magicians, bomb makers,
terrorists, extortionists and just about every other type of criminal. And by 18 I was a forensic psychology major spending most of my life in courtrooms. One criticism I have here is that too few people here are taking any mental risks. Forensic psychology is more of an art than a science. Don't discourage people from trying their hand at symbolism. They shouldn't be afraid to be wrong. It's the only way to get at the truth. Symbolism is important to some types of criminals and I think some people here are failing to understand this. New posters shouldn't be told "I don't think there is much to that idea" or "that is ridiculous". They should be asked to expand on their theories, not made to feel silly. Fortunately, I'm too arrogant for that. And when someone's ideas are attacked by name calling, they know they're winning.
Caz, Seth and Jon, thank you for your civility and suggestions. And Seth, I've really read very little about this case in terms of books so I don't know what theory was what. I was just winging it.
Maybe I'll check back from time to time to see if Dear Boss or the Black Magic gang theory has moved up the charts any. Goodbye for the last time.
Rob |
Author: John Omlor
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 04:19 pm | | I'm sorry to see Rob go.
I wanted to know which one of us was being circumlocutionary and which one was being witty.
I'd have been satisfied with being either, I think.
--John
PS: I really don't believe I called anyone here any names. I just wanted to offer an alternative and, I hope, useful, and maybe even somewhat convincing reading of the same words Rob was reading. |
Author: Alegria
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 04:35 pm | | In the one hundred years plus since the Jack the Ripper murders, what has dry analysis of the facts given us? Not a whole Hades of a lot. What will wildly imaginative speculation give us? Not a whole Hades of a lot. But it could provide a decent debate when applied to those dry boring facts.
Yes, I know that the majority of people here roll their eyes when anything remotely 'ludicrous' is suggested as a theory. Personally, I find the idea of the Maybrick Diary just as implausible as a group of black magic initiates waltzing a woman around the circle while presenting her with alternating colors. And yet people who readily admit that they do not believe the diary could possibly be genuine are still willing to debate it while other implausible theories are ridiculed right off the boards.
There is a stigma attached to being interested in Jack the Ripper. I think that many times, we do not want to debate the fantastical for fear of pushing the study right beyond the pale. You can think it is a bunch of cow-patties if you want, but I am sure that there are other people who would be willing to debate it..if they were given a chance to without fear of being laughed at.
My suggestion (which of course you don't have to follow) is, in the future if there is a theory that is put forward that you find laughable, don't post on the thread just to ridicule it. If there are others who are drawn to it, they can happily debate/argue it. If no one is interested, then it will die a quiet death. This does not mean that you cannot disagree..people disagree on the Diary all the time and usually manage to refrain from ridiculing.
So anyway, that was my two cents worth. And I leave with a question... What P on Kelly's wall? |
Author: John Omlor
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 04:59 pm | | Hi all,
I agree completely with Ally, here.
As I said earlier, I thought Rob's readings of this little letter were delightfully creative and inventive. They made me smile. People really should be able to advance all sorts of speculations on these boards without fear of any personal ridicule whatsoever. After all, what harm does it do to suggest the fanciful? Rob's readings usefully and clearly demonstrated the way in which meaning is produced at least as much by the reader as it is by the writer in the case of any even somewhat complex writing or utterances whatsoever. We all participate in this sort of creation of meaning all the time. Creative reading is what we do. It's inevitable. At least Rob was willing to push it to the max. I will miss this about him, even if I did feel compelled to offer an alternative reading of my own and, in a small postscript, point to a problem in the logic of one of his more imaginative claims.
--John |
Author: stephen stanley
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 06:26 pm | | What I want to know..Is what did poor old Jack Sheppard do to get involved in this??? did I miss something?..He suffered enough by being played bt Tommy Steele in'Where's Jack'
Steve S |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 07:00 pm | | Dear Rob,
Thats a Cracker!Ha-ha...
Rosemary :-) |
Author: Tom Wescott
Monday, 18 June 2001 - 11:22 pm | | To all,
My theory on why the word 'right' was underlined is that it was ridiculing the police and press, as was the rest of the letter ('that joke about Leather Apron gave me real fits', 'they say i'm a doctor now. Ha ha', etc.). He was poking fun at the current theories about his identity and description, another of which at that time was that he was LEFT handed. He was simply informing them, subtley, that, as we know now, they were wrong. But to be fair, the press made much more out of the possibility of him being left-handed than the police and doctors, whom only considered it for a time as a possibility. Of course, to consider this theory you have to still be willing to consider that the Dear Boss letter might be genuine. Either way, I think the theory makes more sense than referring to train tracks or such. What do you think?
Also, if calling a theory stating that Jack the Ripper was a gang and that the 'Dear Boss' letter was a black magic spell is "insecure and childish" then I'll be in good company with Chris George when I say it's RIDICULOUS. Of course, to my way of thinking, bailing the board just because one person blasted your theory is childish and insecure. If we all did that, these boards would have remained vacant since their first week on the net! Read some more books, Robert. I'm sure we'll see you soon under another name.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 02:18 am | | Hi, Tom:
I agree with your conservative analysis of the Dear Boss letter and am glad to see that we concur in our thoughts about Robert Maloney's theory. If Jack the Ripper was a gang it would have made detection and capture probable. One of the first things the police did was to follow up their normal channels for detecting criminal activity in the East End, and because their underworld contacts did not yield the expected leads their thinking turned to the possibility that Jack was a loner and possibly an outsider.
If, as Rob posits, the murders were connected to a network of individuals in the East End, including, as he told us, members of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, it becomes probable that the police would have got a sniff of who was involved and the case would have been solved. There was of course a hysteria to solve the case. Someone would have spilled the beans.
Tom, I also agree that Rob's abrupt departure speaks more to his lack of maturity than the way he was received here. As I say, I regret that that I labeled his theory "ridiculous" but I was reacting humanly to the long hectoring tone of his post to me. I think we have seen similar human reactions to perceived provocation by people connected to these boards--Ally and David Radka are cases in point. As much as we feel we "ought" to act in a certain way, we all encounter occasions where we are provoked into writing a reply which under normal circumstances we would not contemplate.
I also liked your comment that no doubt Rob will be back under another name (!). No, say it isn't so, Tom! In any case, if Rob's theory has merit, it will resurface.
Best regards
Chris George
P.S. Could "Robert Maloney" have been Jacunius???? |
Author: Caroline Anne Morris
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 05:01 am | | Hi All,
If ever this case is cracked, and if it's by way of an original theory, which at first appears ridiculous to the more outspoken souls among us, let's all just keep our fingers crossed that our 'cracker' is not someone who is scared to knock the skin off a rice pudding.
Fools may rush in nine times out of ten, but whoever solves this one is likely to be one helluva free-thinker IMHO. And they don't half pay up front for doing their free-thinking in the open!
Love,
Caz |
Author: Martin Fido
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 08:12 am | | Just a very small point. Rob's reference to candles immediately after the chandler's shop suggests that he thinks a chandler's was a candle shop. (The late Stephen Knight assumed that the same shop was actually a marine suppliers, since that is almost the only context in which the word chandlers is now used). Actually, in 1888 the word simply meant grocers. Our current word, perhaps sensibly, points to the size - extent -range of supplies carried by such a general stores. Chandlers, apparently restricting it to candles, like the French epicerie, apparently limiting it to spices, would never suggest that these were the only or in any way the primary goods carried.
With all good wishes,
Martin Fido |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 08:41 am | | Hi, Martin:
Thanks for your clarification on what a chandler's shop would have been in London of 1888. I know that growing up in Liverpool in the 1950s and 1960s, as I did, the local chandler's was what is termed in the United States a "hardware store" and sold anything from candles to paraffin (kerosene), wire, woodworking and electrical supplies, rope, screws, nails, chains, glass, ladders, and tools, etc.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 10:47 am | | Hello everyone,
As I said in my post, I intend to check in from time to time. I wasn't running away from the attacks on my "ridiculous theory". I simply wanted to avoid turning nasty myself. I've read many posts over the last few months and never once did it cross my mind that anyone's theory was ridiculous. To me, with regards to this case, that is like monotheists and polytheists arguing when there is so little evidence at all.
Lets face it, I brought out in Mr. George something very strange and unusual. He is a man who always is measured and logical. I refrained from pointing out to him how illogical much of what he wrote to me was. I did not want to engage in a childish point for point exchange. I attributed his reaction to one of two things. Either my arrogance was just too much for him to take, or possibily, I caused a psychological thunder clap that occurs when the intuition collides with the intellect. In other words, maybe something I wrote made sense intuitively that the intellect was unwilling to accept. So if an individual point cannot be dismissed through logical argument, the person begins to scream and call the other persons ideas ridiculous.
Now after all I've written, how anyone could think I'm the type of person to post under a different name, is beyond me. The fact that my "theory" was referred to as such is something I take great pride in. In all honesty, is there a reason that someone would think I have double posted? About four months ago my nephew David starting reading the Casebook, and knowing my background, thought I might find it interesting.
He set up an account for the two of us just in case I found the story compelling. Truthfully, he is the only other person I know that has posted anything.
Again, I find even the mere suggestion that I am someone else to be quite rude. You know, I came here with no agenda, no desire to write a book, no need to have my theory accepted by anyone, no grand belief or claim that I have solved this case.
I gave my ideas freely without fear of people stealing them or ridiculing them. No copyrights or criticisms of other people's work.
If you like an idea, take it, use it. If you don't like an idea, then say so. But you better back it up with argument. Tell me why my idea is wrong. Mr. Omlor's approach is the right way.
If people are willing to debate an idea, then I will debate until I drop. And no Tom, one does not have to do more "reading" if you are discussing the Dear Boss letter.
The letter is as pure a piece of criminal sheet music as I have ever read. Now either you can read it, or you can't. Judging from what little you have written Tom, your "reading" of criminal slang needs more practice.
Now I would love to spend the rest of this wonderful day doing this but the cancerous rays of the sun await.
Mr Omlor, I thank you for your more than generous
and kind reply to my obnoxious one liner. I just didn't want to fight a "war" on more than one front.
I will respond to that point about the journalist later however.
Ally, obviously any discussion about the symbols or letters on Mary Kelly's wall is bizarre to begin with. Are they really there or are they not?
I would say the probability is about 80% that they are there. Now this lead us to the question of what letters are there. Now, the probabilities are beginning to shrink a little further as we multiply them.
However, while most people see the first letter as an F, I believe the letter is a P shaped letter with a stem at the top. It is a Rune called Thurisa, or Thorn, Thurs, etc.
To see what I'am writing about you need to see the Rune as it is inscribed on stone. Then compare it to the figure on the wall.
Now as you know, I'm arguing the killers performed a ritualistic black magic Mass over Mary Kelly, who represented to them, a woman of whoredom.
The rune Thurisa has various symbology, from gateway, which I'm arguing was the reason all of the prostitutes were killed near gateways or passages (in order to send them through to the otherworld) to devil and chaos (which was what they were attempting to cause) Thurisa represents uncontrollable fire, as the fire in Mary's room was supposed to have been. It is phallic and aggressive and was in fact, a war rune.
Now I assume, since you asked about the P, that you have noticed the M. Ehwaz means movement and is represented by the horse or war horse. This relates again to guardian spirits as they were attempting to summon the guardian spirit of Jack Sheppard. Now there are other Runes on the wall but they are much harder to be certain of.
So for now I would rather not speculate.
The other major Rune that the killers were working with was Algiz, symbolizing protection.
This was the reason for the deerstalker hats, I believe. In folk magic or black magic horns/antlers/elk represent protection against bad luck. Now if a folk magician wanted to get something through the mail safely and quickly, they would inscribe the Rune Algiz for this reason. Now please take a look at the Saucy Jacky postcard - do you see the horns/antlers? He needed it to get through the mail fast to prove he was the killer. Yet most people think that a journalist could have gotten all the correct details of the murder from the police. Strangely enough for me anyway, after reading all the press reports, the only thing I read in the entire case that didn't have any errors, was the Saucy Jacky postcard. Now what does that tell you?
Rob |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 10:56 am | | Hi,
I believe that a Chandler's shop was a grocery store that one could buy candles in.
My main point of course was that the knife that killed Liz Stride came from that Chandler's shop.
Rob |
Author: Robert Maloney
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 11:01 am | | Hi,
Naturally, I do not think that James Brown went to get his dinner at a store that only sold candles. Thats why the knife was called a slicing knife.
Rob |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 11:18 am | | Hi, Rob:
Glad to see you back here. Thanks for your kind acknowledgement that I am "a man who always is measured and logical." I appreciate it.
You say:
"About four months ago my nephew David starting reading the Casebook, and knowing my background, thought I might find it interesting. He set up an account for the two of us just in case I found the story compelling. Truthfully, he is the only other person I know that has posted anything."
How about the following post?
Casebook Message Boards: Read This First! : Hello everyone I am new to this site
By Robert Maloney on Monday, June 04, 2001 - 10:54 am:
Hello everyone,
My name is Cindy and this is my first question/message since my husband Rob and I found this very interesting site about three months ago.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me where I might find the name of the cigar manufacturer who was a member of the Mile End Vigilance Committee?
Sincerely yours,
Cindy
*****************
An explanation of the foregoing would be appreciated in light of your statement that "my nephew David . . . is the only other person I know that has posted anything."
Now, you may not be Jacunius and you may not have anything to do with the person who has posted under that name. I just thought that since you appeared about the same time as Jacunius and were also pointing out how all the other observers of the case were mistaken, and that you had another person who was aiding you, as did Jacunius, you might be one and the same. If you are not, I apologize.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 11:29 am | | Chris:
If you check out the theories of Lyndon La Rouche and his disciple John Coleman you will see how everything comes down to HRH Elizabeth II being the head and main instigator of the major conspiracies that control the world.
Just think, if you hadn't left Liverpool, you could have joined with us in Ruling the World!
George W. Bush? A mere puppet!
There are plenty of Orton's in this world (including my own grandmother and a rather good restaurant in Greenwich but was Joe a Londoner? and especially, was Arthur Orton the Tichborne Claimant? |
Author: Alegria
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 11:36 am | | Rob,
I am familiar with the runes that you have mentioned and their basic shapes. Unfortunately for me, looking for messages on MJK's wall is like trying to find the hidden picture in one of those obnoxious 3-D art wall things. I stare and stare and all I see are %#!@!! dots. I am more convinced that there is something in the 3-D posters than on MJK's wall, however, I'll give it one more shot. I'm blaming my headache on you.
Ally |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 11:54 am | | Hi, Peter:
Thanks for your clarification on the World Conspiracy. For a short while during the years I worked at Hopkins, I shared office space with a nest of LaRouche supporters so I know something about them. Actually, I believe I recall from the bio pic of Joe Orton, Prick Up Your Ears, that Joe was from Leicester.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Yazoo
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 12:12 pm | | I wasn't going to join this thread but now I'm really curious.
Rob, what are your sources for the criminal/organized crime aspect of your theories? I don't know much about the Black Art, and never even heard of a Hex Master, but the organized crime aspect has been an interest of mine for a number of years.
In the U.S., I don't believe that the existence of "organized crime" was recognized, as least by J. Edgar Hoover (founder and head of the FBI) until the 60s or 70s -- even during Robert Kennedy's Congressional hearings on "organized crime."
My impression is that England was even later in admitting having any "organized crime."
So, I'm afraid I'm out to nick your bibliography, if you have no objections.
Yaz |
Author: Diana
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 01:09 pm | | | An interesting point has been raised. What kind of person is likely to solve this. Possibly it may be one who has specialized knowledge in an obscure field. Confronted with the clues this person sees meaning where nobody else does. I'm not convinced that Mr. Maloney is correct, but his knowledge of Satanism seems to be encyclopedic. One always has to keep an open mind to the possibility of some cult involvement in JTR. If the letters are a dead end, and I believe they are, (with the possible exception of Lusk) it does not mean Mr. Maloney should be dismissed out of hand. Some other JTR evidence which has seemed meaningless to the rest of us may carry a lot of meaning for him. I have said before that all of us, coming from different backgrounds is an asset. Dr. Ind has been, of course quite valuable and I think the contributions of our slaughterhouse worker have been very useful too. Experts on criminal psychology, artists (facial reconstruction of victims) photographers (interpretation of old crime scene photos) and I'd like to think that as a teacher I have helped a little. I still think I can detect a progression of learning vis a vis anatomy and cutting techniques if you start with Tabram or Nichols and move sequentially through to Kelly. Somebody with this much knowledge of black magic and cult activity needs to be cultivated, because who knows, maybe that was a part of it. |
Author: The Viper
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 01:32 pm | | I have taken the liberty of starting a new topic called General / Miscellaneous / Robert Maloney’s Theory because the many and varied conversations on here have gone so far off-topic. Could any further comments and questions relating specifically to Mr. Maloney’s theory please be posted on the new thread? Thanks.
Regards, V. |
Author: David Cohen Radka
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 01:48 pm | | It should be noted, in view of his comment above, that Yazoo has a gigantic bibliographical eros. I still remember his use of obscure writers such as Gurdjieff in his salad days. Anybody who can flash a reference from Gurdjieff on cue has done some reading. If Yaz gets into this theory he will pass ethereally into the related literature and take on its form, as does icy Glenlivet transfer immediately through the tongue and into the bloodstream.
David |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Tuesday, 19 June 2001 - 09:12 pm | | Bob, I dont think you should leave these boards but that decision is yours and yours alone.
I am sure you have some interesting points to contribute. Scores of people have written on this subject.Scores more are interested in the case.But as I have stated in the past not one person is correct 100% of the time. Pick up any book written on the killer and some points will be correct while some will be wrong. It is a matter of being consistent with the hits rather than being consistent with the misses. It is like profiling for example which is a hit and miss affair.Some points you make Bob will be wrong and others will be right. The same goes for anyone.Diana wondered what type of person will crack this case. This case is not going to be cracked by any one person.If anyone believes that they have cracked it on their own merits alone then such a person is a fool.Murder inquiries have many people working on them. Take this case for example. I believe that this case will only be solved by the concerted efforts of a certain amount of people. I could not have written my book without the help of others. One can publisher a book on the subject and one or several names can appear on the cover. But the amount of people responsible for the end product can be staggering.Many people chase the golden prize of trying to unmask the killer.Many motives exist for doing so.But that golden prize will never be taken without a concerted effort. Team work will crack this case. Although I admit one person may try to take the laurels and the credit for the hard work and efforts shown by others. |
Author: P. Ingerson
Tuesday, 30 April 2002 - 04:24 am | | A Silly Thought...
It's almost a shame the 'Dear Boss' letter wasn't real. I like the thought of JtR carrying a selection of empty ginger-beer bottles as he approaches Annie Chapman. There's something wonderfully surreal about that image, although I'm not sure why.
Cheers. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 02:58 am | | PI,
Had not someone invented that pseudonym for the Whitechapel killer, no one would really care about these crimes today.
It's fascinating to me that so much attention is drawn to the lore of a character that is largely fiction - the truth of the matter is rather mundane as murderers go.
Rich |
Author: David Radka
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 09:51 pm | | "...the truth of the matter is rather mundane as murderers go."
How do you know?
David |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 01 May 2002 - 10:44 pm | | David,
What I mean by that is that the Whitechapel killings are only exceptional in the lore created by them with regard to the taunting letters written to the police and the self-naming of the miscreant.
My guess is that the letters that gave the murderer the title "Jack the Ripper" are hoaxes.
When you eliminate the mythology of Jack the Ripper (taunting letters, melodramatic descriptions - gladstone bag, black cape and top hat), these killings are not more exceptional than dozens of others in history.
Indeed, the Cleveland Torso killings maybe the most horrific and audacious series of murders in contemporary history. But in this case the villian (or one pretending to be him) did not write letters to the police.
Rich |
Author: brad mcginnis
Thursday, 02 May 2002 - 12:27 am | | Hi Richard,
Cleve is sicker than Jack? Maybe, but we have more movies and books about our guy. Majority rules.
Mundanly yours,
Brad |
|
|
|
|
