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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through 28 November 2002
Casebook Message Boards: Beyond Whitechapel - Other Crimes: The Black Dahlia Case, 1947:
Archive through 28 November 2002
Author: Kevin Braun
Friday, 20 September 2002 - 09:27 am |        | Howard,
In the late 40's early 50's, the Black Dahlia case was the subject of many BS sessions in the Officers Club, mess hall, ect. I think the idea that the killer was a pilot, who was captured by the Japanese in WWII, came from these BS sessions. I think the theory was primarily based on the nature of Short's wounds. I am not sure if my father had a particular pilot in mind.
Personally, I like Gilmore's suspect.
Take care,
Kevin |
Author: Eliza Cline
Friday, 20 September 2002 - 12:43 pm | | "Eliza,
What specialized knowledge was required to commit the crime? "
I am talking about the knowledge of how to drain someone of every drop of blood once they are dead. From what I understand you have to have a constant source of running water, which has to remain at a certain temperature. I don't reall consider this to be general knowledge that just anyone would have. Also, the way the body was bisected: it was done with a large knife, which is how a doctor would do it. |
Author: Dan Norder
Friday, 20 September 2002 - 03:12 pm | | I don't really think any special knowledge is required to drain the blood. If the person was bisecting a victim in a bathtub to better transport the body or for kicks, blood drainage is a natural side effect. And I think it's pretty obvious even without a medical degree that if you don't want blood you wash it off. The two together would be all that's necessary for this incident, in my opinion.
As far as using a large knife, what do you think a psychokiller would use? A nail file?
I am very skeptical of anyone who says medical knowledge would be needed for the Black Dahlia murder or the ripper mutilations. Lots of serial killers mutilate their victims without having medical knowledge, and I don't see anything that would require such knowledge in these cases either.
Dan |
Author: Vicki
Friday, 20 September 2002 - 09:55 pm | | Hi all!
When I read about "Jack Anderson Wilson" on the Beth Short website, I was reminded of the movie "Jaws." His initials are the same.
It made me wonder if the first scene in the Jaws movie wasn't inspired by the Beth Short case.
There is a women's organization by the name of JAWS, also. I think it's a journalist/writers organization.
Vicki |
Author: Caroline Morris
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 10:37 am | | My hubby says you can tell the sex of skeletons just by comparing the jaws. The females have larger ones - and they will probably still be moving. 
Love,
Caz |
Author: Vicki
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 08:20 pm | | Caz,
That's pretty good!
Vicki |
Author: Eliza Cline
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 08:36 pm | | Dan,
Actually police at the time believed the killer had some medical knowledge, they were checking out medical students at a nearby college.
I could be wrong but I think I read that it is difficult to drain all of someone's blood once they are dead, because the blood doesn't just all flow out. It takes lukewarm water constantly flowing onto the murder victim.
You are right about many of these psychos using knives, of course. I didn't have time to elaborate on that. What I was trying to say was that most of the false confessors to this crime tried to say a saw or some other large weapon was used. A layman might have tried to use something like that. But someone with medical knowledge would know that a large knife would be the best tool to use for such a purpose.
Another fact about the bisection was the killer did it neatly, missing all major organs, and there were no hesitation marks, which to me indicates he knew something about anatomical landmarks. |
Author: Garry Wroe
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 09:31 pm | | Hi Eliza.
I'm unsure of whether you are familiar with the Ed Gein case, but he would decapitate a victim and then tie her ankles to a beam in order to drain away the blood. Although Gein was barking mad, he had learned this technique from his hunting experiences. Dennis Nilsen, the British equivalent of Jeffrey Dahmer, knew from his experience as a butcher that the blood in a human body will solidify if the corpse is left for a day or two. Hence he was able to dismember his victims without the worry of blood spillage. Gein and Nilsen apart, many non-medically trained killers have exhibited tremendous proficiency in dismemberment and organ removal - certainly enough knowhow to fool the authorities into suspecting medical training on the offender's part.
Best wishes,
Garry Wroe. |
Author: judith stock
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 11:38 pm | | I agree, Gary; if you have cut up a chicken, you know that the joints are the easiest to sever, and that sawing through a femur isn't the easiest job....EVEN on a chicken!
Gein's technique was well known to hunters, and even to farmers who slaughter their own animals; gravity alone does a pretty good job of draining. Then there is always Richard Kraft who froze his wife before he put her through the wood chipper.. no fuss, no muss, and no bloody mess, either!
Have a good Sunday,
Judy |
Author: Garry Wroe
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 08:25 am | | | Thanks Judy. You too. |
Author: Eliza Cline
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 02:36 pm | | I suppose it is possible that the killer got some of his knowledge through hunting experiences or that he had worked as a butcher.
But when you say that gravity does "a pretty good job of draining blood," that may be true, but Beth's body didn't even contain one drop of blood. I am not sure that gravity alone would suffice to drain blood so completely, though I may be wrong. I know the police at the time believed the murder would have had to take place in a location with warm running water.
Also it seems likely that the killer had experience bisecting HUMANS, since like I said the bisection was clean with no hesitation marks. |
Author: Timsta
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 06:32 pm | | Dahliologists might be interested to know that singer Marilyn Manson is currently exhibiting a series of paintings at the Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions gallery, one of which, entitled "Elizabeth Short as Snow White", has just been purchased for $30,000 by Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Eliza Cline
Wednesday, 25 September 2002 - 12:31 pm | | | I'm no fan of Manson but as a painter he has real talent. Can't say the same about him as a musician. |
Author: Eliza Cline
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 02:30 pm | | Hi, Warwick, I saw your thoughts about the Dahlia case on another board and I thought I'd respond to them here to avoid confusion.
Actually most of the terrible damage to the victim was done after her death. However, the murder was still exceptionally violent and cruel by any standard. I too wonder how the killer got so much hate.
My theory is that Beth was murdered by a serial killer, who probably started his murderous "career" years earlier. Since there were no other California murders linked to the crime, I believe the killer murdered his other victims somewhere else. I also believe that this killer was out of commission for a while, he may have done a stretch in jail or in an institution, where he just stewed in his own poisonous juices for a while, his anger and frustration building up, and when he got out he committed this ultimate act of brutality. I think the victim was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 24 October 2002 - 03:40 pm | | Hi Eliza,
Your theory about the case is shared by some others too. Some have speculated that Short was murdered by the infamous Cleveland Torso killer who mutilated derelects (male and female) in the 1930s.
Richard |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 10:13 am | | Hello Eliza,
Thank you for your post, I hope you are right in your assumption that Beth was dead when most of the injuries were inflicted on her. Me, I tend to look on the dark side of things, I'm inclined to think that the killer had his eye on Beth for a while before striking, planning what he would like to do to her, then thinking on how, where, and when. When he did strike and he had her in the situation he had planned for her, I don't think he would have sped the process along. He played with her without a doubt as I said before.I think he was a sadist ---top class-- God knows what that poor girl had to go through before she died, but he had her in a room that must have been completely private. He cut her in half!! don't you think with a mind like his he would have "tried" to do it while she was alive, just for the fun of it. I bet he cut her mouth before she died,--he would want to see her try and use it afterwards. The human excrement in her stomach, that could only have got there while she was alive. Regarding the bi-section again, maybe he did do it after death, it seems from the photos that it was done in a tidy fashion like you say, no intestines cut through, or perhaps they had but had been washed afterwards.
He cut her in half, but not to hide her body, he displayed it in a terrible fashion, he bi-sected her just for the devilish glee it gave him. I hope it was him who died in the fire, it would be appropriate wouldn't it?-- but we will never know, -- and that's part of the essential satisfaction, isn't it?
All the Best
Rick
P.S. I'm doing this on a "Revise your message" Ive got to say,
What a nice name, ELIZA,ELIZA, yes. |
Author: Eliza Cline
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 11:02 am | | Rich, I always thought the Cleveland Butcher was the most likely Dahlia suspect. I think I mentioned this before, but the (unusual) MO is so similar--bisection, draining of blood, meticulous scrubbing, rope marks on the victim, dumping the victim in a vacant lot. These are things the Cleveland murders and the Dahlia murder have in common--and I have never heard of any other murders which have all these things in common.
Warwick, I doubt that the killer was stalking Beth of any length of time. One reason I think this is because Beth was last seen at the Biltmore, which was not one of her usual hangouts, and no one knew she was going to be there. She ended up at the Biltmore completely by chance. A stalker wouldn't have known to find her there. In my mind there are two possibilities: she either was on friendly terms with her killer, and called him to pick her up from the Biltmore, or she was abducted by a complete stranger somewhere in the vicinity of that hotel. |
Author: Vila
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 12:16 pm | | According to a TV show on the History channel I saw a few months back, she was alive and in a bathtub when she was sawn in half.
Her killer was one sick puppy.
Vila |
Author: Dan Norder
Friday, 25 October 2002 - 12:41 pm | | Not that it needs to be said, but, just in case: Don't trust something just because it's on TV.
Be especially skeptical of the History Channel because it is known to favor more dramatic versions of events than versions more accurately supported by known facts. It has reported all sorts of urban legends and wildly speculative archeological theories over more accepted theories. It's sad that a channel based upon the study of history would do this, but it's true.
Dan |
Author: Eliza Cline
Tuesday, 26 November 2002 - 04:02 pm | | | Try the website "Blackdahliasolution.org" for a likely new suspect. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 27 November 2002 - 10:54 am | | Vila et al,
I find it hard to believe that Short was alive when she was cut in half. I have not seen the autopsy reports, yet I believe this for two reasons.
First, and foremost, the morgue photo shows her eyes are wide open. This is a sign of instant death.
Second, after death, blood loses its ability to coagulate. This means that the blood would be free flowing as the enzymes in the body are not coagulating the blood trying to save it. It is also interesting to note that in the case of instant death, the blood will retain its coagulation ability for thirty minutes post mortem. At the exact time of death, the blood in the body also begins to breakdown and settle at the lowest point of the body. This is called livor mortis. From the crime scene photos and morgue photos, it is clear that livor mortis is not present, or at least not present in a major way. This is indicative that the body had to have been suspended or at least both halves had to be turned wound side down allowing the blood to drain out.
So in essence, she was killed and then cut in half. Whether the killer planned it this way is open for conjecture.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Eliza Cline
Wednesday, 27 November 2002 - 02:15 pm | | | According to the Grand Jury testimony there was no "ecchymosis" (bruising) around the bisection wounds which does indicate the victim was already dead. Scott is right, and John Gilmore was wrong about this. Just another reason not to trust Gilmore. |
Author: Kevin Braun
Thursday, 28 November 2002 - 07:57 am | | Eliza,
Thanks for the link http://blackdahliasolution.org/. Some of the text is wordy and difficult to read, but Ed Burns is an interesting suspect. The photos of Burns (if it is Burns) and Short are haunting.
Take care,
Kevin |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 28 November 2002 - 10:00 am | | Hi, Kevin and Eliza:
Hope you are having a good Thanksgiving.
As previously discussed, the upcoming Black Dahlia chat is still set up for Tuesday, January 14 in the Jack the Ripper chat room. As we are talking it up well ahead of time, we anticipate a nice attendance.
In regard to the new Dahlia website at http://blackdahliasolution.org/, I have e-mailed Dahlia expert Larry Harnisch about this website.
Is the supposed suspect "Ed Burns" a legitimate suspect mentioned in LAPD files? The suspect looks made up to me. The five-and-dime photographs (see below) that supposedly show Beth Short with Burns is usually designated (e.g., in the books by John Gilmore and Mary Pacios) as showing the victim with an "unidentified man." So is the person who put together this website onto something or is this a bogus suspect?
I will let you know what Larry Harnisch's take on the new website is.
All the best
Chris
 |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 28 November 2002 - 08:42 pm | | Hi, again, Kevin and Eliza:
Here is some feedback from Larry Harnisch on the new Black Dahlia website at http://blackdahliasolution.org/. It looks to me as if this is the Dahlia equivalent of Simon Whitechapel's ramblings about the Ripper case. Larry says this about the person whom he thinks is behind the website:
"That must be the guy down in San Diego who keeps mailing me the worst sort of nonsense about the 'clues' he has found in the crank mail sent to the police after the killing. (A street a few blocks away from the crime scene is 'Degnan,' ergo it is related to the Degnan killing. Puh-leez). I think he uses the name Jack Pico with me, other names with other people!
"Tony Valdez sicced the guy on me, but I can barely bring myself to read his material. He has drawn all sorts of triangles and other geometric shapes linking letters on the crank mail addresses so they spell out purported messages from the killer. He sent me some long, rambling cover letter to thick envelope that I never even opened. If you read James Ellroy's books carefully or talk to him about the case, he will sometimes refer to a 'numerology nutcase' and I think this is the guy.
"I just took a glance at his Web site. Extremely elaborate but he has done bizarre retouching of the photos.
"But I'm sure that no matter now cracked his scenario is, he will find a few adherents. It is impossible to say anything so bizarre about the Black Dahlia that no one will believe it. That's why I never joke about it. Somebody, somewhere would take it seriously!
"I have never been able to identify the man in the pictures from the photo booth (I think there's usually a series of about three), although it is somewhat unusual for her to be with a man in civilian clothes. The copy in the Examiner photo archives at USC (a copy donated, apparently, by John Gilmore) has something scrawled about 'I have identified this man,' but caveat emptor."
Chris back again: One thing I noticed is that the photo booth photos, one of which I included in my last post, are shown backwards on the website compared to the way they are printed in the books by Gilmore and Pacios, for whatever that is worth.
Best regards
Chris George |
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