Author: Jack Traisson
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 01:46 am |        |
Hi Esther,
You may also want to check out the Black Dahlia web site:
http://www.bethshort.com/dahhome.htm
Cheers,
John |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 09:41 am | |
Hi, all:
I think it is clear that Janice Knowlton naming her father as the killer is a product of her therapy, not based on any facts of the case. She wants to blame Elizabeth Short and her father for her own problems. Rather a sad case, I should say. We should pity her. As for the allegation by Mary Pacios that Orson Welles was the killer, while strong evidence is missing there as well, Welles did have a dark side to his personality that does bear scrutiny.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 10:48 am | |
Dear Dan:
I was trying to keep a "neutral" tone regarding Ms. Knowlton's book. Hope I succeeded.
Dear Chris:
Dark indeed... "We will sell no wine before its time".
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 10:52 am | |
I hope you'll cover Orson Welles during the chat--this is all new information to me and you've got me intrigued.
Cheers,
Dave |
Author: Eliza Cline
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 12:03 pm | |
I liked Mary Pacios' book for the most part, but I felt Pacios was really unfair to Welles. For instance, Pacios makes a big deal of the fact that Welles left Hollywood in 1947, implying his departure was connected with the Black Dahlia murder. The truth is, first of all, that Welles left L.A. in the FALL of 1947, many months after the murder, when the investigation had already started to wind down.
Why would Welles stick around for so long after the murder, if he was connected with it. He apparently left because Alexander Korda, a producer, offered him a deal to make movies in England. Welles was frustrated with Hollywood at that time because of their interference and re-editing of his work. Welles believed the studios had ruined "Lady from Shanghai." That was the only reason he left Hollywood, in my opinion. |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 12:59 pm | |
Eliza,
I'm glad he left, and played Harry Lime in "The Third Man", one of my favourite films.
Jim |
Author: Esther Wilson
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 02:18 pm | |
Thanks for the information about the book Divia. I'll have to start sourcing the library and book stores now.  |
Author: Esther Wilson
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 02:23 pm | |
| Thanks for the link to the Black Dahlia website John. I've taken a quick peek and it looks very interesting. |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 13 September 2002 - 04:26 pm | |
Hi, Eliza, Jim, Esther, David, etc.:
I agree that the case against Orson Welles made by Mary Pacios is circumstantial. In fact a lot of her book is a kind of "incredible but true" sort of argument.
An odd feature of Pacios's book is that she apparently could not get the rights to the publicity stills from "The Lady from Shanghai" so she shows artist's renditions of the same shots, some of them of the Crazy House (amusement park horror house) in the movie which allegedly show bisected bodies cut up like Beth Short was. Some of this is in the eye of the beholder, and though I have looked at some of these shots for minutes on end I am not sure what Pacios means when she says this or that is at "exactly the same angle" as Beth's body, or that type of thinking.
But then Gilmore's book Severed is equally quirky with this thing whereby he has an informant talking to the suspect Wilson but then at the end of the book you find the informant was Gilmore himself, plus the fact that his book lacks an index, pretty much a requirement I think for a good true crime book, and lacks good dating of Wilson's death or the Bauerdorff murder and other items. So it is true crime history but done very much the Gilmore way.
Looking forward to seeing many of you at the chat next Tuesday 9:00 pm EST in the chat room at
http://www.geocities.com/grahf_chess/index.html
when we will attempt to discover "Who Killed the Black Dahlia?"
Best regards
Chris |
Author: Eliza Cline
Monday, 16 September 2002 - 02:19 pm | |
| I couldn't make out those pictures in Pacios' book very well, either. The drawings were very poor. And the fact is, there was never any connection made between Orson Welles and the Black Dahlia, no proof that they ever crossed paths. |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 16 September 2002 - 04:13 pm | |
Hi, Eliza:
Another aspect that I think is odd is that I understand Mary Pacios was a researcher for John Gilmore on his book, Severed and yet here she has come out and named a quite different suspect! As a suspect, I would probably class Orson Welles in the same league as I would put Lewis Carroll on whether the author of Alice in Wonderland was the killer in the Ripper case.
Best regards
Chris |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Monday, 16 September 2002 - 04:36 pm | |
Chris, How "actually" did Beth Short die?. Was she perhaps shot in the throat or between the eyes?. I've been on the site, but can see no mention.
Rick |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 16 September 2002 - 08:34 pm | |
Hi, Rick:
Beth Short was not shot. The official cause of death was hemorrhage and shock due to trauma to the head plus lacerations to the face and breasts. Most probably she was dead when her body was bisected.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 16 September 2002 - 08:52 pm | |
"WHO KILLED THE BLACK DAHLIA?"
Join us tomorrow night in the Jack the Ripper chat room as we discuss the notorious murder of Elizabeth Short in Hollywood in January 1947.
Looking forward to seeing many of you at the chat tomorrow, Tuesday, at 9:00 pm EST (8:00 pm CST) in the chat room at
http://www.geocities.com/grahf_chess/index.html
when we will attempt to discover "Who Killed the Black Dahlia?" Your moderator will be myself, Chris George. Any questions beforehand, please feel free to e-mail me at editorcg@yahoo.com.
For more on the case go to http://www.bethshort.com/dahhome.htm. Beware, some of the photographs on the site are graphic.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 05:58 am | |
Chris, are you saying that Beth Short suffered no "killing wounds" except the cutting in two?,
that she died of blood loss during that operation?
If so , all I can say is, God,-----
Rick |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 06:13 am | |
Hi, Rick:
Actually I don't believe there is evidence that Beth Short was alive when she was cut in half. As noted, the coroner's finding is that she likely died from wounds to the head. There is a theory that the cutting in half was merely a means to dispose of the body. On the other hand, the display of the body on a lot near a road would argue that the killer got some thrill from the mutilation and display. But no, I don't think Beth Short would have known anything about the bisection. Thank God.
All the best
Chris |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 10:19 am | |
Hi, Chris
I take it you've read Severed, and what's your opinion of that book? I know John Gilmore is supposed to have had access to the coroner's report--does he reproduce any pages in the book? And do you know if the Beth Short files have been released? If not, what sources should we use to form our opinions?
I ask because there seems to be differing opinions on cause of death (I think in the Gilmore interview at bethshort.com, he says death was caused by hemorraging--that's my memory at least). But plenty of people dispute this, and I wonder how Mr. Gilmore backs himelf up.
How do we know what we know? How much of what we know stems from a writer telling us "because I told you"?
I think JTR Ultimate Companion has spoiled me But what are your views?
Cheers,
Dave
PS I don't mean to knock anyone, I only wonder what's the evidence behind the theories. |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 11:00 am | |
Hi, Dave:
Yes I have read Severed and find it a perplexing book, interesting but somewhat disorganized and lacking in an index and dates of a number of incidents he recounts, e.g., I have looked for proper dating of the Georgette Bauerdorf murder and don't find it or of the dates Bauerdorf is supposed to have spent time with Beth Short and can't find those either although he makes much of the fact that Short and Bauerdorf supposedly knew each other. Similarly, what is the precise date of the death of Gilmore's suspect, Wilson... this also seems to be lacking in the book. I think some time in the 1980s but I looked in vain for a precise date. Maybe I missed it and someone can set me right but I don't think so.
No Gilmore does not publish the autopsy, so you are right that to some extent we are reliant on what authors tell us. I believe the full autopsy report has never been released to the public so this is why Gilmore is able to speculate that Beth Short's vagina was not fully formed to allow penetration. It is true that Gilmore says hemorrhaging was the cause of death but I think again this is from what the coroner was quoted as saying, that death was due to injuries to the head, and hemorrhaging there, not to hemorrhaging when the body was cut in half.
I think both the Pacios and Gilmore books leave a lot to be desired, and it looks to me as if the definitive book on the case has yet to be written. These two books might be the best we can expect, but I should hope for better treatments of the subject.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Eliza Cline
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 12:17 pm | |
I find a lot of errors and omissions in Gilmore's investigation into the case. I haven't read Gilmore's book (I don't have the stomach for those graphic pictures), but I have read excerpts from it and I read an interview he gave.
Gilmore seems misinformed on the cause of death. According to the grand jury testimony of the autopsy surgeon, Beth died from "shock and hemorrage due to concussion of the brain and lacerations of the face." The other mutilations were apparently postmortem. Yet Gilmore says she was alive (but probably unconscious) during most of what was done to her. This is in direct contradiction to the known facts.
No, the coroner's report has never been released, but investigators found other evidence that Beth had some kind of gynecological problem because there are medical records from a doctor she saw in Chicago, which seem to confirm this. But the nature of the problem is not specified. So Gilmore may be right on this one.
The Georgette Bauerdorf murder occurred in 1943, four years before the Beth Short murder. There are really no similarities between the two murders, other than the fact that Bauerdorf was found in a bathtub full of water, and the Short murder may also have involved a bathtub. I tend to doubt they are related.
Finally, I think Gilmore's suspect is simply not credible. He didn't have the specialized knowledge to commit the crime. |
Author: Kevin Braun
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 03:51 pm | |
Chris,
"Jack Anderson Wilson burned to death in a hotel room fire on February 4, 1982." There is a theory that the LAPD, in the 1940-60's, had a vigilante element that may have set the fire, see LAPD's Rogue Cops. Black Dahlia Murder Case, by Vincent A. Carter.
Interestingly, my father, a Navy pilot who was stationed at the Santa Anna airbase in 1948-50, thought that the killer may have been a fellow pilot, possibly a POW in WWII. These guys were like the rock stars of the present, many pretty girls wanting to get close. After a few dinners, a few drinks, they were looking foward to something in return. My father died in 1982. At that time to the best of my knowledge, Short's abnormality was not made public. Just a footnote.
Take care,
Kevin |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 03:55 pm | |
Hi, Kevin:
Thank you for giving Wilson's correct date of death and also for telling us about the interesting theory that your father had about the identity of the killer. It is of course known that Beth Short dated a number of servicemen--there are photographs of her with some of them. Although that would not have been unusual either though for a young lady of her age to date servicemen in the war and immediate postwar years.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Kevin Braun
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 04:40 pm | |
Chris,
Thanks for the reply.
I should have written, a pilot incarcerated by the Japanese in WWII.
Take care,
Kevin |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 06:47 pm | |
Hi, Kevin:
Interesting theory. Thanks for the clarification.
All the best
Chris George |
Author: Howard Brown
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 09:27 pm | |
| Dear Kevin.....Very interesting post !!! Did your Dad ever intimate to you WHY he felt that the BD killer was this particular person ?? Did he elaborate? Thank You..........Howard |
Author: Dan Norder
Thursday, 19 September 2002 - 09:59 pm | |
Eliza,
What specialized knowledge was required to commit the crime? There doesn't seem to be anything involved that a psychotic vagrant couldn't do.
Dan |
