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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through 12 September 2002
Casebook Message Boards: Beyond Whitechapel - Other Crimes: The Black Dahlia Case, 1947:
Archive through 12 September 2002
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 03:05 pm |        | Hi Chris (again),
I have just visited the website you posted on the case. Many of the photographs I saw over a decade ago except for the extreme close up of her face.
I have my doubts about its authenticity. I would welcome your opinion.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Yazoo
Wednesday, 12 June 2002 - 05:29 pm | | Hey Joseph:
I'm good; fighting to keep my job like millions of others around the globe. Congratulations on the WTC clean-up,BTW; we all owe you a round (or two or three). I hope all is well with you and yours.
Hey Rich:
Forgive me for probably botching things up again but I think Chris is referring to Gilmore's use of himself in the third-person in his book...implying that someone else interviewed and met the suspect when it was Gilmore who did it. The suspect and his alias remain the same. Sorry Chris, if I fouled that explanation up too. It's a good thing there are so many good Casebookers willing to follow me around the boards and clean up my messes.
Bye, All!
Yaz |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 13 June 2002 - 02:56 pm | | Hi Yaz,
In case you are interested, there is another important link of Jack Wilson to the Short murder.
Before Short's death, and acquaintence was also murdered. The woman was strangled and left in her bathtub and panties forced into her mouth after death.
A witness described a tall man with a limp leaving the scene near the time of death. It so happens that Wilson was a tall man with a crippled leg. The investigating officer, Lesnick, considered Wilson a strong suspect in that case.
There were other murder/mutilations both before and after Short's death. These were considered either unrelated or copycat crimes. However, it is possible that the killer of Beth Short also murdered others.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Howard Brown
Saturday, 15 June 2002 - 11:41 pm | | | Mr.Dewar..I saw a show on the Dahlia case( side note:Is it true that Eliot Ness recieved taunting letters right after the Cleveland Torso slayings,that resembled the Black Dahlia letter?)that and correct me if I am wrong,said that the Skid Row denizen,Jack Wilson,liked to dress up like women? Thanks..HB |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 06:06 pm | | Hi Howard,
The only taunting notes I am aware of that the Eliot Ness received during the Cleveland Torso Killer's reigns were from a physician he had falsely accused of the crime.
Ness named the doctor publically as his main suspect. However, murders occurred while the doctor had been hospitalized for mental illness. The doctor never let Ness forget his mistake - sending him taunting letters for years.
As for Jack Wilson, I am aware of no reports that he was a transvestite - however there was testimony suggesting that he associated with transvestites - as did Beth Short.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Howard Brown
Sunday, 16 June 2002 - 09:26 pm | | | Yes,and didn't that doctor boast to colleagues that he either was the CTK or that he was suspect number one? You know what is fascinating,Rich...that during the investigation of the Cleveland case and the JtR case and virtually every case,the authorities unearth so many people,although not culpable of the case in question,that are so "likely"( Arthur Kane,in the Zodiac case, comes to mind) to be "guilty" of something else !!! These people are walking amongst us between the rain drops..Scary,ain't it? Later,mes ami |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Monday, 17 June 2002 - 02:28 pm | | Harold,
You are precisely correct. I think the general public seriously underestimates how many disturbed characters are amongst capable of such horrific exploits.
In the case of the Whitechapel murderer, the problem was not lack of suspects but too many suspects that distracted police from their prey.
Additionally, as so many have pointed out, murder, especially of strangers, is very easily executed and enormously difficult for the authorities to solve.
Indeed, while I believe that Jack Wilson is a likely suspect in the Black Dahlia case it would not surprise me in the slightest if the actual killer were some non-descript unknown suspect. The same is true of the Whitechapel case.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Tom Thacker
Tuesday, 25 June 2002 - 12:21 pm | | Howard,
There was a letter sent to the Cleveland police from a doctor in Los Angeles who claimed to have buried the head of one of his 'victims' somewhere in LA. The LA police searched but found nothing. This was in 1938, so it didn't have any connection to the Short murder.
Richard,
Ness never named a Torso suspect publicly. His main suspect was the doctor you mentioned, but researchers didn't know his name(Francis Sweeney) until the early 70's. As far as the doctor's stays at the hospital during some murders, its hard to say where he was when, since the hospital records are apparently now lost. It is known that during his later stays after the murders he was allowed to come and go as he pleased. In any case I wouldn't go as far to say that he was falsely accused of the murders. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 25 June 2002 - 02:33 pm | | Hi all:
If anyone is interested, I have written a poem imagining that Orson Welles wrote T. S. Eliot's "The Waste Land" and it has been nominated for an internet poetry award. I mention it here because in the poem I play with the Mary Pacios theory that Orson Welles may have been the Black Dahlia murdererer.
See The Waste Land by Orson Welles
Any comments appreciated.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Eliza Cline
Tuesday, 10 September 2002 - 09:22 pm | | I have some questions for Richard Dewar, since he has studied this case: First I wonder why you consider J. Wilson the leading suspect in this murder. From what I understand the killer was believed to have had medical/anatomical knowledge. I am not sure where Wilson got that knowledge.
Also, unlike the Bauerdorf murder, the Black Dahlia murder was apparently done in a private home. The killer certainly would have needed a lot of privacy. Did Wilson have a private place to take the victim? From my understanding he was something of a derelict. I always felt that one of the biggest mysteries was, where did the crime take place. I haven't read Gilmore's book so I am not clear whether Wilson owned a car. The Dahlia killer was seen driving away in a dark Ford near the crime scene.
Finally, I read somewhere that in order to exsanguinate someone you need a constant source of lukewarm running water. If the murdered victim was on boards on TOP of a bathtub it seems to me that wouldn't really suffice. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 11 September 2002 - 09:42 am | | Hi Eliza,
I personally believe Jack Wilson is the most likely suspect to actually be Beth Short's killer. I acknowledge that this is speculation - anyone of a dozen men could have been her killer.
Indeed, a Los Angeles reporter some years back developed a fascinating and possible theory that Short's killer was a man who lived in that neighborhood and attended Short's same church. He was a doctor and would suit one of the profiles you mentioned.
Based on what I have read, I do not believe the killer necessarily had any anatomical knowledge.
Now to your specific questions as to why I suspect Jack Wilson:
1. A man reported that Wilson told him he had committed the crime
2. Wilson had a history of violence and was seen as an angry alcoholic
3. The lead investigator on the case believe Wilson was the killer
4. At the Bauerdorf crime scene, in which a woman was killed in similiar fashion to Beth Short, a tall gaunt man with a limp was seen leaving the crime scene. A tall gaunt man with a limp was also seen in the accompanying Short at one time. Jack Wilson was a tall gaunt man with limp.
As to your specific questions - Wilson resided in rooming houses (in fact, as the police were on their way to question him about the killing he died in a rooming house fire). The murder could have occurred there. Wilson did not own a car but had been charged with car theft. I believe the killer might have had water running from the shower nozzle.
As noted, though, much of this is based on speculation. This is what the investigating officer at the time believed happened. But like many historical cases, many of the "facts" of the case are unsettled - some of the files are still sealed in the case.
I am afraid, Eliza, like many interesting cases this will remain unsolved with only different people giving their own educated guesses.
Richard |
Author: Eliza Cline
Wednesday, 11 September 2002 - 10:47 am | | I think Wilson is certainly a good suspect in the Bauerdorf murder. But that crime seems quite different from the Black Dahlia murder. There were none of the bizarre features of the Dahlia murder. Bauerdorf was strangled, there was no stabbing, no mutilations, and that crime lacked the ritualistic quality of the Dahlia murder.
I think the killer of Beth must have had some anatomical knowledge, he was able to perform a bisection cleanly, missing all the major organs, and he knew how to drain blood--these are things a layman wouldn't know how to do. Police at the time apparently believed the killer had medical/anatomical knowledge, they investigated all the students at a nearby medical school.
I think the Cleveland Torso killer is a more likely suspect. The Torso killings featured bisection, scrubbing, and draining of blood also. How many murders have these three features? I have never heard of any other cases, besides the Dahlia murder and the Torso killings, where the killer has done these things. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 11 September 2002 - 11:24 am | | Hi Eliza,
You have noted some interesting differences. They might be explained by the fact that Bauerdorf knew Short and that the killer's rage was directed at Short and not Bauerdorf. We just don't know.
I believe the anatomical knowledge of the killer needn't have been an expert - though admittedly this is opinion. I do not mean to be too graphic, but frequently those experienced in gutting fish or skinning animals have the required skills in this case.
The Cleveland Torso killer was a suspect at the time. In many ways, those killings were very different from Short's both in time and modus operandi. They are as follows:
1. The Cleveland murders were all of derelects - most victims being homeless males or prostitutes dumped near railroad tracks
2. The Cleveland murder victims did not suffer the same kinds of facial mutilations in the Short case
3. The murderer in the Short case sent the personal effects with a letter through the mail indicating she deserved what happened to her - nothing like that occurred in the Cleveland cases.
This is not to say that your theory is untrue - there are those who share your opinion. I personally think it intriguing, possible, but not likely.
Rich |
Author: Eliza Cline
Wednesday, 11 September 2002 - 12:41 pm | | You say that the Cleveland murders were all of derelicts, and this is true. However, from what I have read of serial killers they are opportunists, and tend to pick on the most vulnerable victims. The Torso killer struck during the depression, a time when there were a lot of homeless and desperate people who would have been vulnerable to this type of killer. And while Beth SHort was certainly not a derelict, she was strictly speaking homeless, she was known to spend nights on her friend's couches and on one occasion an all-night movie theatre.
There is one other fact regarding the Torso killer I didn't mention--someone purporting to be this killer sent a note to police in 1939, claiming he had "moved to California for the winter." (I note that Beth SHort was killed in the winter). The note-writer mentioned the Crenshaw area and said to look for a body there. This seems like to big of a coincidence to simply dismiss.
My theory is that the Torso killer, or a copycat influenced by the Torso crimes, spent his winters on the coast, as many did in those times. During one of his trips to California he met up with Beth Short and killed her, dumping her body in a place he had already scouted out years before. |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 11 September 2002 - 01:32 pm | | Hi Eliza,
Your theory is as good as any. Let me share with you why I feel a little differently, though.
The evidence suggests that the Cleveland Torso killer was not a personal acquaintance of the victims. There is strong evidence to suggest that Short's killer knew her personally. The carving of the gruesome smile on her face, many criminalists tell us, indicates the murderer was specifically angry at her. We also have the two letters sent from the killer (these letters apparently were genuine since they accompanied Short's personal belongings) in which the murderer mentioned grievances against Short.
For these reasons, I think it likely that her killer knew her well and for some reason hated her.
Your postulation that the murderer was some sort of copycat is, of course plausible. There were other grisly murders of women shortly after this case. They were ascribed to copycats. To this day, it is difficult know for certain whether Short was murdered by someone who had a personal grudge against her, whether she was slain by a serial killer, or perhaps, as I think likely, both.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Eliza Cline
Wednesday, 11 September 2002 - 09:37 pm | | I agree that Short was murdered by a serial killer. This man had to have been a jaded, seasoned predator, he had about every sick perversion known to man (and a few unknown). You don't just wake up one day with these kinds of compulsions, you escalate to them.
I used to think the killer must have known her, many people familiar with the case believe this, but I have been re-thinking that position. THe killer was awfully brazen, he spent time at the site where he dumped the body, posing the victim, etc. This might mean he wasn't afraid of being recognized, that he was not local to the area. Also, the killer sent Short's personal belongings to the newspaper, and included an address book with many dozens of names. If the killer knew Short, how did he know one of those names wouldn't lead directly or indirectly to him? It would have been safer for him to discard the address book, unless he was not one of her circle of friends or acquaintances. Maybe I am reading too much into this, but there is not a lot to go on in this case.
Just to clarify about the letters to police: I think only one letter was believed to be genuine, that was the first letter, which stated "Here is Dahlia's belongings, letter to follow." This letter said nothing about Short deserving her fate. A later note stated that "the Dahlia killing was justified" but I as I recall the police believed this letter to be a hoax. |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 06:17 am | | Hi, Richard and Eliza:
Please note that I will be chairing a chat on the Black Dahlia case in the JtR chat room at 9:00 pm Eastern Time, Tuesday, September 17. I hope you both can attend and bring your knowledge of the case to the discussion.
The chat room is at
http://www.geocities.com/grahf_chess/index.html
Any questions, please feel free to e-mail me at editorcg@yahoo.com
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 06:49 am | | Chris,
I was about to ask you if you would tell me anything in general about the Black Dahlia, I know nothing at all about the case, but it sounds mighty interesting.
Rick |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 10:43 am | | Hi, Rick:
The main thing to know is the the body of a young woman was found cut in half in an empty lot in Hollywood, California, January 15, 1947. The body had apparently been drained of blood and dumped in such a way that she was bound to be found by passersby, a parallel with the Ripper case where, as you know, most of the victims' bodies were left in public places. The victim in the Black Dahlia case turned out to be Elizabeth Short from Medford, Massachusetts. Some days later, a paste-up note, presumably from the killer, was received by the LA Times, along with some of the victim's possessions, which lends credence to the idea that the sender was the killer.
Various suspects have been named. One of them, proposed by John Gilmore, the author of the book Severed, names a drifter of the name Jack Wilson aka Arnold Smith, whom Gilmore also believes killed another young woman, socialite Georgette Bauerdorf, in a bathtub several years earlier. Gilmore contends that Beth Short had a vagina that was not fully formed so she could not experience full pentration, and it is hypothesized that the killer may have murdered the woman in frustration. The draining of blood and the cutting in half of the body may have been merely to help with disposal of the body but the dumping of the body in public view might suggest that there was a ritual or sexual element in the mutilation, in my opinion.
Another author, Janice Knowlton, has named her father, apparently on the basis of regression therapy, claiming that Beth Short was a known prostitute, a fact that has not been clearly established. LA Times reporter Larry Harnisch has recently named a local doctor, while Mary Pacios, author of Childhood Shadows, has fingered actor Orson Welles.
I hope the above helps.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:13 am | | Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info about the chat - I will mark that on my calendar!
Your summary of the case is excellent and fair. My recollection was that Bauerdorf, who was an acquaintance of Short, was murdered months before not years. My memory may be failing me.
My view is Welles is not a serious suspect - though if a Hollwood studio executive had been found butchered. . .
All the best,
Rich |
Author: Dan Norder
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 11:49 am | | Chris,
The Dahlia case is fascinating too, though I know far less about it.
I do find the disputes over the level of medical knowledge needed for the crime, the authenticity of the letters assumed to be from the killer, and the feasibility of certain suspects (including celebrities) to be amazingly similar to what we see on these boards, but in a microcosm.
But at least nobody has claimed to know who Jack the Ripper was based upon memories "recovered" via hypnotism and other ridiculous mind games, as far as I know anyway. Well, ok, they did seances looking for Jack... I guess they're both mental trickery that results in fabricated information.
Dan
P.S. It strikes me that if someone wanted to come up with some weird theories about the Dahlia case, they could compare the death of Elizabeth Short to the recent unresolved abductions of Elizabeth Smart and Jennifer Short. I don't believe those cases are related, but it does seem pretty dangerous to be a young female with a last name that also is an adjective. That's me, the instigator of wild theories. |
Author: Kevin Braun
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 12:38 pm | | Also, the killer sent Short's personal belongings to the newspaper, and included an address book with many dozens of names. If the killer knew Short, how did he know one of those names wouldn't lead directly or indirectly to him?
The address book that Eliza refers to had several pages torn out. From The Black Dahlia website ...
"According to John Gilmore, the names (pages) removed from the address book were those of high-profile people. The book had belonged to Mark Hansen. There were no entries in Beth's handwriting. According to Ann Toth, an actress, Beth had stolen the address book (an opportunist move), a silver Hawaiian letter opener and some money"
Take care,
Kevin |
Author: Esther Wilson
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:24 pm | | | What books would you recommend on the Dahlia case for someone who knows a little about the case but not enough to fully understand the crime? Thanks for your help. |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:34 pm | | Dear Esther:
Try reading Severed: The True Story of the Black Dahlia Murder by John Gilmore.
To my knowledge, this is the best book to date regarding the Black Dahlia. There are others, but they do not provide many facts, mainly speculation or sheer fiction. Janice Knowlton wrote a book implicating her father as the murderer, but it is based on memory-regression therapy or something to that effect. Ms. Knowlton has refused to back up her story with any concrete proof, so I cannot say that it is bogus or dead on. You might want to check it out just to read what she has to say.
Hope you found this helpful.
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: Dan Norder
Thursday, 12 September 2002 - 08:47 pm | | I'll say it... "Recovered memories" are bogus, at least the kind of detailed memories that Janice Knowlton claims to have. Many recent studies prove that they are spontaneously created to conform to the individual's preconceived notions and dellusions or to satisfy the therapist's preconceived ideas about what kind of memories are hidden.
Dan |
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