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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through April 23, 1999
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: Specific Victims:
Mary Jane Kelly:
Was it really Mary Kelly?:
Archive through April 23, 1999
Author: Leanne
Wednesday, 21 April 1999 - 05:17 pm |        | G'day Chris, Laura, Ashling, everyone,
O.K. I'll try to hunt the book I saw! A few things about the victim MJK, that dont seem right:
John McCarthy, her landlord, stated she received a letter from her mother in Ireland. Joseph Barnett, (the man who knew her best), stated that she never corresponded with her family. Because Barnett used to read her newspaper reports of JTR, maybe she was planning an escape. |
Author: Leanne
Wednesday, 21 April 1999 - 05:25 pm | | On her arrival in London, she made the acquaintence of a French woman, who made several journeys between Paris and London, (not easily traceable). Could the French lady be 'Julia', who MJK let sleep in her room? What happened to 'Julia'. Was she present at the inquest? If not, could she be the unidentifiable body, on MJK's bed?
If MJK didn't have the money to pay her rent, (I could be confusing her with other victims), She wasn't often drunk and often recieved money from |
Author: Leanne
Wednesday, 21 April 1999 - 05:32 pm | | -Barnett, what was she doing with all this money? Could she have been saving for her quick escape?
Laura reminds me of MJK's Aunt recieving a Christmas Card from America. If MJK didn't want to be traced, ever, wouldn't it make sense to send a card from a country she was just visiting?
I'll try to find the book, I may be just remembering questions I read once. |
Author: Christopher-Michael
Wednesday, 21 April 1999 - 07:43 pm | | Leanne -
"Julia" was, so far as we can determine these things, a woman named Julia Venturney (or Van Turney, or a few other alternate spellings), who lived at No. 1 Miller's Court, opposite MJKs room. She testified at the inquest, noting that Barnett was nice to Kelly and tried to give her money whenever he could.
Barnett testified that he stopped living with Kelly because she brought a prostitute named "Julia" to live with them. The "East London Advertiser" told its readers that Julia was German, and through the connexion of Mrs Venturney's name and a reference (which I don't have at the moment) that she herself was German, the two "Julia"s are thought to be one and the same. |
Author: Alex Chisholm
Wednesday, 21 April 1999 - 07:52 pm | | Evening all
I think the book in question has already been correctly identified as "The Ripper and The Royals" by Melvyn Fairclough - Second edition (corrected and augmented) published by Gerald Duckworth & Co. London 1992.
In this edition, appendix 7, "Abberline's account of the five Ripper victims", page 244 presents the account of Kelly's Irish Aunt as relayed by Christopher-Michael, and also includes "The aunt received a christmas card from Kelly, sent from Canada after Kelly's murder."
I hope this helps
alex |
Author: Julian
Wednesday, 21 April 1999 - 09:25 pm | | G'day everyone,
Hmmm, it seems like a few more Aussies are out here molesting the boards. Goodonya guys.
As for Ms Kelly having to have the newspapres (that's a French newspaper) read to her, I'm not entirely convinced that this i strue. (geez my finger are pissed today!).
I has been mentioned that Mary could speak fluent Welch. Now I've seen a couple of Welch words in my time and trying to wrap your laughing gear around some of them is enough to give your tongue cramp. (Leave that one alone Caz). Anyway. If Mary could master another language, shorely reading would not be so difficult.
I know that education was rather restrictive toward women back in those days, mainly rteaching (geez!) them how to be obediently subserviant popu;lation (Aaagggghhh) enhancers.
I don't think this will help us solve the murders, but I just don't think all the information Barnett ave (••••!) about Mary was correct. But the fact that Mary was willing to share her room with another woman and her nloke (gog!) just shows the generous and compassionate nature of this woman.
I reckon that given different circumcisions (?) Mary would have made a brilliant Florence of Arc.
Julkes |
Author: Caz
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 04:35 am | | Well said, Jules!
(albeit not as your usual self, what was in those birthday VBs dear?)
Looks like all these 'poor defenseless' women were not all they seemed, hey! Gave our Jack some challenge. He sure rose to it. Bad choice of words there, my Frere Jacques Floppy, or Jacques 'Tatty', or even Jacques Strop, couldn't rise to any occasion. (Okay today, Jules?)
I still believe MJK died in that room. Perhaps my JtR1 sent that Xmas greeting from America. Sounds just like him, wonder how well he disguised his handwriting on this occasion. He certainly fooled his own brother with various anon letters and strange postcards he sent to him. The poor guy didn't have a clue it was bruv sending them! (IMHO of course). What date was the card posted?
Hey! Maybe Mary WAS planning to escape with lover Julia when she was 'orribly thwarted by Jack's bloody opus horribilis. The actual killer (JtR2 or Barnett?) most probably had an an(n)us horribilis too, but I'll leave that well alone (grin)....
Hey Jules, you don't think you were called Julia in a previous life do ya? Okay, I'm gone....
Love,
Caz |
Author: Caz
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 04:39 am | | Sorry Alex,
I should have said Canada specifically, rather than the whole Continent! My concentration's not all it should be either today.
Love,
Caz |
Author: Leanne
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 08:34 am | | G'day everyone,
I've searched through the library for 'The Ripper and The Royals'. It was listed as present, but I couldn't find it on the shelf. The librarian rang and ordered it from another library. I will be able to borrow it sometime within the next few days. Then I'll read page 224 first and who knows, I might even read the whole book this time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-LEANNE |
Author: Leanne
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 08:44 am | | Sorry,
I meant to say page 244. I'm off, it's late!
LEANNE....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
Author: Laura
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 02:08 pm | | Leanne howdy!
Cheers muchly for answering my query and the book title of The Ripper and the Royals does ring a bell. Make sure you tell me what you found when you get the book from the library.
Bye for now
Laura |
Author: Mara BR
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 03:47 pm | | Hello Ashling!
Thank you for the offer. Sorry, I thought I had mentioned, I'm in São Paulo, Brazil. And we are the only country in South America that does not speak Spanish, we speak Portuguese. That's why sometimes it's hard to find stuff in our language. But books in English are fine, since I'm pretty fluent (or hope to be) in this language. Problem is, most bookstores don't carry these books here. I usually order whatever I want, but it takes long and sometimes they just don't do it for one reason or another.
I will practice one of my favorite sports on Saturday and go bookhunting in second hand stores with my husband. Then I'll tell you if I had any luck.
Talk to you next time,
Mara |
Author: Leanne
Thursday, 22 April 1999 - 05:30 pm | | G'day Mara,
If you get an English book on JTR to read, this may not be ideal as a tool to learning the English language. He wasn't very fluent at writing his own language, (bad spelling etc.),
and most JTR books contain coppies of his letters, messages on walls and that. This may be very confusing for you and is probably why not many JTR books are available there.
- LEANNE |
Author: Mara BR
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 03:15 am | | Dear Leanne:
I'm not looking for a JTR book to learn Emglish. I want to gather as much information as possible on the murderer and the crimes for professional purposes.
I lived in the USA for good part of my life and have spoken English for over 15 years now. I'm now back in Brazil where I work as a publisher, and hope to release a certain book on the subject over here. I can't tell you which, because the terms of the contract haven't been agreed upon yet, but as soon as they are (and I have the time to come back here, I'll let you guys know.
The reason why JTR books are not available here is simply a marketing one: there is no demand for them. As I mentioned before, we don't have many "ripperfiles" or "ripperologists" in Brazil. I may well become the first one.
There was one novel, by a very famous Brazilian writer which featured not only Jack, who was Brazilian and emigrated to the UK, but also Sherlock Holmes, a really bad but charming detective. Of course the book was a satire, but a very good one. Conan Doyle would have liked it.
Anyway, there is a movie in pre-production, which will probably boost the sales of any related material. But don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I have no true interest in the case, I do. As I've said before, my encounter with the Ripper was a chance one, very much like his victims' (oh-oh! Sorry guys, this is the writer in me). And so I was hooked! (no pun intended).
So when I had the chance to also publish something that had to do with him, I was really pleased. Business and pleasure, a perfect combination.
And don't worry about the letters, I've already read them and they aren't confusing to me. The mistakes and misspellings in some of them, show that whoever wrote them was either a foreigner who didn't have the chance to learn English (which you might have noticed by now, is not my case) or semi illiterate. Some of them just seemed to have been written in haste. But if they are the work of only one individual, then he must have been very clever or schizophrenic. But I'm already stating the obvious and this MB is supposed to be about Mary Kelly, and not Jack.
Talk to you soon, guys!
Mara |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 03:51 am | | Hi y'all! Got a good discussion going on here.
LAURA: Compared to many regular posters here - I'm in the third grade of Ripperology "school" ... but I'll be glad to help if I can. What's the title of your paper - have you decided yet? Bob C. & Bob H. are both working on writing projects on Mary Kelly. I learned a lot in a few short months by surfing around & reading the posts by our authors & researchers.
ALEX & C-M: Thanks for the quotes. I've skim read Prince Jack, but don't intend reading The Ripper & the Royals for a while. I'm focusing on the latest books first - so I can recognize what's documented fact & what's debunked myths, when I do read the pre-1988 material.
MARA: Your English is extremely good. I recently met a published writer on another board who lives in Portugal & you speak/write better than him. Enjoy your weekend ... I share your enthusiasm for second-hand book stores - I go JtR shopping twice a week. Have you ordered books online from ABE before? Many people on this board speak highly of its variety.
LEANNE: Joe Barnett lost his job around the time he moved out ... I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) he picked up odd jobs here & there ... Whatever sums he gave Mary then would have been very small - hardly enough to get drunk with, much less leave town on.
Have you had a chance to read the inquest testimony? (Available on Main Menu> Press Reports> Daily Telegraph> Nov. 13, 1888.) IMHO the testimony of Barnett, Mary Cox & John McCarthy totaled together = Mary Kelly drank heavily - and fairly often. So, I believe between poverty & the pubs Mary couldn't save diddly squat. But that's just my 2 pence.
Also, there's lots of conjecture - but not one jot of evidence that JtR wrote any letters. According to the newspapers, at least one crank/weirdo was caught red-handed writing fake JtR letters. I concur with the popular theory that the most well-known letters were written by a newspaper reporter to increase newspaper sales.
JULES: On re-reading Mary's inquest as reported by the Telegraph - I can't assume Mary asked to be read to. She may have -- because she needed glasses, or just didn't like to read - some folks don't, or because she was semi-illerate. But the way Barnett's statement is phrased - we've no clue if the reading sessions were Mary's or Joe's idea. Plus, is she asking Joe questions after he's read, maybe getting his opinion - Will JtR be caught? Who could JtR be?
Take care,
Ashling |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 03:59 am | | Hi Mara:
Our posts crossed. I look forward to reading your book.
Later ...
Ashling |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 05:26 am | | Excuse the typo ... Geeze, can't believe I mis-spelled illiterate. I'm off to slash my wrists with a quill pen -- Maybe Bob H will loan me his.
Ashling |
Author: Leanne
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 06:58 am | | G'day Ashling,
I took your advice, and read that 'Press Report'. It sounds like it was Joes idea to read the newspaper to Mary, in an attempt to scare her 'off the streets'.
-Leanne |
Author: Mara
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 09:43 am | | Thank you for your compliment on my English, Ashling. But you see, I'm a publisher and not a writer. I have something of a writer in me because I work with books all the time, but I would never dare (and this is a rule of thumb for writers) write something on a subject I am not totally confident I know well, such as JTR. The book I will publish was written by an English author and the movie in pre-production is based on that book. The Brazilian novel was also made into a movie, but it is a national production. The other one is a Hollywood thing and will probably have more publicity.
Well, time to get to work. See you all later!
Mara |
Author: Laura
Friday, 23 April 1999 - 12:54 pm | | Ashling!
Thankyou for your offer of helping me with my essay, I'd like to take you up on your offer if you don't mind. I'm writing the esaays for an Independent studies criminolgy class and so I'm allowed to choose any topic i like and devise my own question, as long as it's in the boundaries of crime and criminlogy of course. I know I want to write about JTR because it interests me so much but the essay has a 5000 word limit and there is so much info on JTR I felt swamped!!! So, I decided to concentrate on just one of the murders, Mary Jane Kelly's because it seemed to be the most interesting to write about. BUT looking at this website has made me feel even more confused, people seem to know so much on the subject compared to me who knows relatively nothing!!! Thus, any help you can give me would be very much appreciated, could you tell me all you know on her murder? if this is too tall an order i'd understand!! Also any suggestions on an essay title? anyone?
cheers, from a confused wanna-be ripperologist called Laura |
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