|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through 24 January 2003
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: Specific Victims:
Mary Jane Kelly:
Archive through 24 January 2003
Author: Timsta
Saturday, 18 January 2003 - 07:06 pm |        | Hi all.
Mushy peas = good.
Saveloy = bad.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Steve Hodder
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 05:58 am | | On the vexed issue of fish & chips, Joseph Malin opened London’s first fish & chip shop in Cleveland Street (now Cleveland Way?), Stepney in 1860.
Now tradition has it that Mary Jane Kelly was in domestic service in a shop in Cleveland Street. What is more (I am unreliably informed) Walter Sickert, lived at number 6 Cleveland Street virtually opposite a homosexual brothel frequented by Prince Albert Victor. Coincidence – I don’t think so.
Alright, I think I’m getting my Cleveland Streets confused, but could this be the makings of a “Jack the Ripper worked in a chip shop” theory?
Conspiratorially yours, |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 08:41 am | | | Aha! I have it! Because of some wierd compulsion understood only by the Almighty, Jack found it necessary to cook up a mess of fish and chips in the teakettle and feed them to Mary before he killed her! He, ah, got them overdone a little when he melted the spout off! Er, um, not one of my better ratiocinations . . . |
Author: Peter Wood
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 11:59 am | | There's a guy works down the chip shop, swears he's Jack the Ripper?
Hmmm, I'm not quite sure about that.
On the potato debate, we English eat them boiled and baked - did they really have chip shops back in 1888? I'd imagagine it would have been one of the other two options.
The most evil invention ever? MASHED potato! yeuckk! |
Author: Timsta
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 12:26 pm | | Peter:
Oh, come off it. I humbly suggest the following as examples of the most evil invention ever:
Jellied eels
Whelks
Deep-fried Mars bars
Pork scratchings
Double Diamond beer (in cans, natch)
The Party Seven (or Party Four, for the budget conscious)
Spam (either kind)
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 12:27 pm | | Jack the Ripper worked in a Chip Shop?
Why not?, some would have us believe Elvis Prestley has been seen serving in a Fish and Chip shop somewhere in England. |
Author: Joseph Gibson
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 12:56 pm | | Strange what connections a bit of nonsense like this can throw up. According to the site below, the first fish & chip shop in the North of England was opened around 1863 by a "Mr Lees". The first shop opened in London in 1860, within the sound of Bow Bells, was at Cleveland Street.
http://www.federationoffishfriers.co.uk/history.htm
Spooky, eh? Maybe there's another Final Solution somewhere in there. |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 01:40 pm | | | You know, now that I get used to the idea it doesn't sound so funny. Fish & Chip Shop/MJK/Cleveland Street/Fish and chips in her tummy that nite . . . |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 01:44 pm | | | I suppose at this late date its impossible to tell. Where would she have gotten fish and chips that night? Did the pubs serve them? We have no record of anyone seeing her eating f&c but she must have. Did she get them on one of her repeated forays out that nite? If so where? What time did the f&C shops close? What time did they open in the morning? |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 02:05 pm | | | Somebody just said over in whine and cheese that F&C are never eaten for breakfast. If that's true and was also true in 1888 then Maxwell is knocked into a cocked hat. |
Author: Philip Rayner
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 02:19 pm | | I would imagine that if you were poor and hungry and likely to remain that way you would eat anything you could lay your hands on breakfast or not. They just wouldn't have had that choice.
As to when chipshops closed, it depends on the owner. They would almost certainly open till the pubs closed, and bearing in mind the unfortunates seem to have worked till the early hours of the morning may have stayed open till 2am.
In the George yard murder, two people who lived there were mentioned as going to get supper well after midnight. This was at a chandlers shop but other food shops may have run similar hours. Even today these shops usually stay open till after nightclubs close at 1-2am. |
Author: Timsta
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 03:29 pm | | Diana:
I suspect her meal was fish and boiled potatoes, somehow.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 19 January 2003 - 04:50 pm | | | I will admit that about 35 years ago when in college I had cold pizza for breakfast. I was poor. |
Author: Guy Hatton
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 04:41 am | | Timsta -
Fish pie?
Just adding to the point that 'fish and potatos' need not mean 'fish and chips'.
Cheers
Guy |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 08:38 am | | Hi All,
Well perhaps Barnett brought her the Fish? I mean he didn't have money for her, but he seemed to be the kind of guy who wouldn't show up to a Lady's door without something to give her. Now sure he's not a Fish Porter at the time, but I'm sure he still had a few connections.
Hi Timsta,
Ok, now I am THOROUGHLY UPSET. How can you diss Spam? SPAM IS GOD! Just because you can not eat it just demonstrates you are not worthy to be a Disciple of the Diety in a Can. I mean don't you know that everything goes into Spam. So thusly Spam is made up of everything. Since God is reported as to be all things, then obviously Spam must be God, right?
So bow before the Might of Spam. And Repent, for the Time of the Can is at Hand.
Regards,
Chris H.
Co-Founder of the Spam is God Cult
P.S. Hey if the Raellin's can do it so can I!
P.P.S. See what happens when High Schools in the States force their students to sit quietly in Study Hall? These said students form Cults to Potted Meat!(Ok, LONG Story, but I wanted to get in on the Comic Routines here.) |
Author: richard nunweek
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 09:52 am | | | i remember after arriving home from the local one sunday morning after a rather late extension .i demolished my saturday night dinner of fish and chips about 6am . beer makes me hungry. seriously it does not matter if it was potatoes and fish fish and chips it all depends on what time the reader of these boards believes kelly was killed between 3am / 4am she proberly consumed her food at about 1am/2am . if she was killed about 9am/10am she would have consumed about 7am/8am . the latter is my preference, however she may have had a takeaway when she returned to her room with the ginger whiskers client or friend . regards richard |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 20 January 2003 - 02:08 pm | | The total volume and description of the food, liquid and other material present in the stomach is weighed and recorded at the autopsy. In regards to gastric contents, there are some factors to consider.
1) The Information is useful in determining the composition of the last meal of the decedent and for estimating the time of the last meal. For example, a body is found in the evening and the stomach contents eggs and bacon (which are normally eaten at breakfast). The stomach contents establish the time of death sometime in the early morning. It is important to note that I said establish time of death, establishing time of death and fixing time of death are two different species, therefore; gastric emptying time can only be useful when taken in context with other factors.
2) In general, a light meal may take only a couple of hours to pass from stomach into the intestines, whereas; a heavy meal may take upwards of six hours to pass through the stomach into the intestines.
3) Foods such as celery, onions, potatoes, corn and tomato skins typically take longer to digest and pass than meat and fish. This may indicate that the fish and potatoes in Kelly’s stomach and intestines came from two different meals.
4) The rate of gastric emptying is affected by mental and physical state of the decedent. If the decedent was under mental or physical duress at the time of death then the gastric emptying rate may be faster or slower than normal.
5) Identification of the stomach contents may also identify where the decedent ate their last meal. If undigested food is found to contain a certain seasoning or sauce, the contents may be traced back to a specific restaurant, where the decedent was last seen eating at a particular time.
6) Time of death can only be accurately fixed when the exact time of the last meal is known.
Based on this information one can reasonably place Kelly's death at........ 
Peace,
Scott |
Author: richard nunweek
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 06:34 am | | hi scott
i cannot argue with any of that. i quess it is fair to assume that we will never know when kelly had her last supper. regards richard. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 08:29 am | | Richard,
Do not give up so easily! Point six can be a little misleading if you let it be the sole guiding point. Notice that in point one, I said; gastric emptying time can only be useful when taken in context with other factors. This is true for all time of death factors.
If a light meal takes approximately 2 hours to move through the stomach into the intestines, then time of death could be approximated to within two hours prior to the time Kelly’s body was found. If one also takes into consideration the effects of rigor mortis as noted at the post mortem exam and the witness statements then time of death could be established at approximately ________ a.m./p.m.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: richard nunweek
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 11:38 am | | HI SCOTT
okay i wont give up,let me pick your brains
question. when doctor bond saw kellys body at 2pm rigor mortis was beginning to set in and increased during examination would you agree with his verdict that she had been dead between six and twelve hours puting her time of death between 2am-8am. would it have been in your opinion possible that she could have been dead only about 5 hours . we have the fact that she was cut to pieces the room would have been cold[two broken panes of glass] also she was on the bed uncovered the fire was not still alive at 11am just hot ashes. so scott what is your opinion to the time of death based on the evidence provided.
regards richard. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 01:51 pm | | In the post mortem Dr. Bond notes that rigor is present and is progressing. Taking into account how rigor mortis progresses throughout the body, the external affects on rigor ( her thorax was completely open and the internal organs removed, the massive mutilations of her body and the struggle before death) time of death is placed within 1-2 hours prior to her body first being found.
If anything, the fire in the room would have helped speed up rigor mortis. Cold hinders its progression and heat can speed it up.
The next step is to look at the witness statements. Are any of the witness statements consistent with the forensic information. I think so, notably the statement given by Maxwell. Therefore, based on forensic information, I firmly believe the time of death for Mary J. Kelly is 9:30-10:00 a.m.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 06:35 pm | | Scott, Mary Kelly's time of death 09:30-10:00am?
That's unbelievable,--with all due respect.
Millers Court could have been quite lively by then. That really would have been a terrible risk for the Ripper to have taken, especially if he attacked Kelly with the knife right at the start ,--as her injuries suggest! Three quarters of an hour, approx, to kill, gut, get cleaned up, and compose himself. How did he clean up enough to go out among people in broad daylight? I'm sorry I can't take that in, thats too much risk.
What about these friends and clients that could have called at that time, what if Bowyer had been that much earlier?, that curtain could have been pulled aside at any time during those hours,---by anyone, think of the footsteps and voices that would have disturbed him. Rick |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 06:41 pm | | | Scott, excuse me putting out a corrector, Kelly's thorax wasn't wide open,--- but her abdomen was so wide open as to be none existant |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 21 January 2003 - 08:00 pm | | Sorry Rick,
At the risk of sounding like Patricia Cornwell, accept it or not,the evidence points to that time frame. This is not simply twiddling with facts to make them fit a particular theory. The progression of rigor, the external effects present and Maxwell's statement all correspond.
As far as the cleanup goes, I spoke of that in another thread, several threads in fact. My profile of the killer is posted in a couple of threads and the profile shows how the cleanup would have been accomplished. In the other killings he simply wore some type of coat and gloves. In Kelly's murder, the killer simply wore a coat like before or brought a change of clothes. I can not see him really deviating too much from the other killings so I would bank on some type of coat.
Granted, her complete thorax may not have been open, but her body was laid open to the point that it would have caused rapid heat loss. Especially when combined witht eh other mutilations. Thorax-abdomen, given the degree of mutilation, choice of words is a non-issue.
In fact, the time of death is also off in Tabram and Chapman as well. And it is the time of death in Chapman's death that is a key element in proving that Walter Sickert did not murder any of the canonical five.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Jeff Murrish
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 02:13 am | | | Rigor, though useful as a indicator of time of death, has its problems. As you mention, heat and cold can affect its onset. Was the fire blazing, or smoldering? Marys mutilitations, in particular the opening of her abdominal cavity, would act to dissipate body heat than much quicker-colder body, slower rigor onset. I also have very little faith in the medical experts of the day when it comes to their forensics deductions. Not saying death couldn't have occured at 9:30 am, I'm just not comfortable with the forensics "experts" involved in the case. |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 05:51 am | | Scott, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding crime and the time of Kelly's death. I do have to say though, I have my doubts. As is often said on these boards, we don't know,--nothing can be proved, and 04:00am makes more sense to me than 10:00am,--in more ways than one.
Rick |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 08:08 am | | Hi Scott,
The problem to the Coat concealment theory is a major one when we come to Kelly. Because I feel it's OBVIOUS he moved her body. She was killed on the far end of the bed.(The one furthest from the doorway.) Evidence of this is by the blood spray being towards the wall, the abrasions on her hand, as well as the pool of blood being below the far side of the bed. However she was found closer to the doorway, in a position that was obviously constricting for the murderer to do the mutilations he did without leaning over the body.(For instance nearly removing her arm.) So he moved the body. And obviously he moved it several times during the period of his work.
So blood would have gotten on his coat. Even if he had taken off the coat, he would still need to put it back on afterwards. The blood on his body and hands would obviously smear on the clothing as he attempted to put said clothing on. And we've seen how even the smallest spot of paint on someone's clothing made huge mobs chase after the poor innocent fellows.
There was no basin of water in the room, so obviously the killer couldn't have cleaned himself up. So he would have to risk walking about in broad daylight, at about 10:30 a.m. in streets filled with people preparing for the Lord Mayor's parade, in clothes with blood on them. I'm sorry but it doesn't fit.
Plus, there are several MODERN day cases in which Rigor has been used to give a time of death that was completely contradictory to all evidence that proved when the crime actually took place. For instance we have the case of the West Memphis Three in Arkansas. Going by Rigor Mortis the Forensic Pathologist stated the victims were killed around 9:30 to 10 p.m. in the spot where there bodies were found. However, these victims were killed in the woods, on a night where mosquitoes were voracious, and yet there were no mosquito bites on the victims bodies. This added with the fact that there were people standing not more than 10 feet from where the bodies were found, and the darkness of the woods at that time of night would have made it impossible for the wounds inflicted upon the victims to be done without some lighting aid, which would have been visible by anyone in the area.
Plus as you've stated, heat and cold can play a factor in Rigor Mortis. The Iceman used to either freeze, or dump corpses in cold areas so that the police couldn't accurately give a time of death.(One of the victims was simply left in a dark alley where the Iceman had killed him. The Police placed time of death 4 hours after the Iceman had actually killed him. And this was on a somewhat chilly October night, with temperatures not much different than those of Whitechapel on the night/day of Kelly's murder.) And I'm sure you would agree that with how extensive the mutlilations to Kelly's body that MOST of her body heat would have been evactuated intot he earliest stages of the process. This effectively would have cooled the body, making it more complicated to give a time of death based on Rigor Mortis.(We've seen the same thing in other major mutilation cases. Such as Ed Gein's and even Jeffrey Dahlmers work.)
So Rigor isn't the only deciding factor in this case. We also have to look at other evidence. You spoke of Maxwell's testimony as being part of this evidence. And you also forget that Maxwell's own husband had stated he didn't believe his wife's story because she 'hardly knew the girl'.
I agree that the Forensics of the day weren't exactly an 'exact science' but they weren't so off on their estimates that they placed time of death 5 or 6 hours BEFORE the fact.
Regards,
Chris H. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 09:20 am | | When speaking in terms of forensic science and the determining time of death, 75 degrees Fahrenheit is the base temperature. At 50 degrees Fahrenheit, the progression of rigor mortis is completely stopped or slowed down tremendously. Other factors also come into play. The rapid onset of rigor mortis can be attributed in extreme muscle exertion just prior to death. Soldiers in battle have been found to be in complete rigor almost instantly following death. I have also arrived on the scene of drive by shootings, within a half hour after the shooting and have seen the legs of gang members in complete rigor due to them trying to run from their killer(s). A funny thing about Louisiana is the temperature. In the height of summer, I have seen bodies completely by pass rigor and go straight into decomposition. The defense wounds present on the arms of Kelly indicate a struggle with her killer.
Jeff Murrish is a physician and his medical expertise is extremely valuable, however; following my experience in investigating 150+ homicides and the classes I have attended in various forensic sciences, rapid dissipation of body heat = a faster onset of rigor mortis. I know this seems to contradict the cold temperature slowing down rigor mortis but we are talking of ambient air temperature versus body temperature. There are current studies taking place at the Body Farm that suggest 45 degree Fahrenheit weather with high humidity may in fact have the same affect on a body as 65-70 degree Fahrenheit weather with little humidity. In the case of putrifacation, we would be speaking of the ambient air temp. being conducive in the growing of bacteria. In rigor mortis we are talking about the chemical process the body goes through.
Just what was the temperature in Kelly’s room? Probably not above 65-70 degrees which is close to optimal temperature. I base this on the probability that the clothing burned would not be soaked in any accelerant. This means that the flames from the fire would be a yellow to reddish color and would be enough to heat a 15 feet by 12 feet room to approximately 65-70 degrees fahrenheit. If indeed an accelerant was used, then the accelerant would be burned off of the clothes first. This would result in a rather high temperature at first ignition. If kerosene would have been used, the flames would have been bluish to salmon in color and would have heated a 12x15 room to approximately 73-85 degrees Fahrenheit. Of course, once the accelerant would have burned off, the clothes would remain as the sole fuel source and the temperature would have stabled off in the 65-70 degree Fahrenheit range. This is based on Fire Science and fire cause and origin.
As for the coat, its pure conjecture, but I have seen this before and so it is based on experience. I remember one particular homicide where the victim, an elderly woman was hacked to pieces and eviscerated, receiving far worse than Kelly. The incident happened in an apartment in a retirement community. The victim was found on the floor and the room was bathed in blood, however; the rest of the apartment was clean. No, blood was seen leaving the room and no blood outside the room save a splotch on the 5 button of the telephone. Inside the dried blood, a white powder could be seen. Long story short the killer posed as a doctor and wore a white lab coat that he removed prior to entering the room to supposedly treat the victim. He also wore the disposable booties that surgical personal wear along with a pair of latex gloves.
And yes, Chris, they could be off that much in their time of death. The belief in the medical community at the time was that rigor took six hours to appear, stayed twelve and took another six to disappear. We now today that rigor normally appears in 1-2 hours post mortem and that inself is a four to five hour difference.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 11:52 am | | Hi Scott
I have no relevant medical experience, but are you not assuming the temperature of the room to be far too high? It was a cold night, there was minimal furnishing, no insulation, brick walls which do not retain heat well, it was very damp, there was a broken window, and the status of the fire is undetermined. In any case, the effect of even a hot fire in that horrible little room would have been counteracted by the amount of draught it must have sucked in.
I think it would have been none too warm in that room unless you were right by the fire or tucked up in bed, and when the fire went out it would have gotten cold in the room pretty quickly. I have lived in better built and maintained houses of that period - Victorian terraced brick houses - and once the heat is turned off they get ice cold - empirically far colder than a typical American timber framed house in comparable ambient temperatures. (I've lived in a couple of those too.)
On the other hand, if what was burnt was clothes (and I doubt any accelerant would have been available - someone who can't afford fuel probably can't afford paraffin) the ashes would have stayed warm - without necessarily radiating much heat - for some time. I have tried to burn piles of clothes myself - it isn't easy and they smoulder on for ages.
Regards
Pete |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 01:21 pm | | Hi All,
I agree with Pete.
Do we know that the temperature in the room was not 50 degrees - the temperature at which Scott suggested rigor mortis is slowed?
We don't really know what was burned and when - it is possible that the burning of the fire occurred prior to the murder.
Since we do not know exactly what was burned, we have no idea how long the fire lasted. It may have burnt out very shortly after the killer departed - or perhaps even before.
If the killing happened during the morning, in day light, it seems rather odd and unnecessary for the killer to need to burn Kelly's clothes.
Regards,
Rich |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 22 January 2003 - 02:30 pm | | It is not a suggestion that rigor slows down or stops at 50 degrees Fahrenheit, it is a forensic fact.
As for the fire, there are several facts.
1) Fire needs three things; fuel, heat and oxygen. If one of these three links are missing there is no fire. In this case the fuel was the clothing.
2) The amount of heat needed to ignite the fuel depends on the ignition point of the fuel. It is important to remember that it is not the cloth that is burning as most solids and liquids do not burn, it is the vapors released from the solids or liquids. So, as the temperature in the clothing material begins to rise the more vapor is released.
3) There are several kinds of heat, radiant, thermal and direct. A match may provide a lot of thermal and direct heat but it does not provide enough radiant heat. This is why a bon fire will not light with just a match placed next to a log. Just as kindling is needed to start a bon fire so must the fire in Kelly’s bedroom. So the easiest way to light the fire, to burn the clothes is to start a fire with probably coal or wood. Even smoldering ashes can re-ignite or cause enough radiant heat to ignite items like paper or cotton.
Pretty much all clothing today contains some sort of flame retardant. In fact cotton and wool have extremely low ignition points although of the two, wool has the highest. Victorian clothing contained very little if any at all. If clothing did contain a flame retardant material it was usually expensive. So, this is probably why the clothes that Pete tried to burn only smoldered.
4) Most non-accelerant fires burn at temperatures between 1200 and 1400 degrees Fahrenheit. Because of this it is safe to estimate the ambient temperature given off during the fire. In fact, if there is a description of the color of the ashes and the composition of the ashes then a fairly accurate temperature reading can be given as well as detecting the use of any accelerant.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Thursday, 23 January 2003 - 08:03 am | | Hi Scott,
The problem is you are leaving out several factors.
1.) Bond reports that there was evidence of Kelly's last meal spread 'throughout the intestines', which means that we are looking closer to a 3 to 4 hour interval between when she last ate and when she was killed.(Because the food would have to proceed through a good part of the intestines, not just have emptied into them from the stomach.)
2.) Maxwell reports that Kelly had vomitted in the gutter, however as we see with Bond's report there is food not only in her intestines, which would mean that she had to have at least eaten 2 hours prior to her vomitting(which would place it around 6 to 6:30 a.m.), but also still in her stomach. Which would not be inducive to Mary vomitting at all, unless of course she ate the meal after being sick, however why would she eat if she is ill and how do we explain that she has the meal in her intestines already if she is dead within an hour after she was last seen by Maxwell?
3.) If any accelerant was used to burn the clothes not only would the smell still be evident in the room,(Kerosine and Parrafin are strong odors) but particularly the smell would be strong to anyone leaning into the fireplace to sift through the ashes. Yet there was no reports of smelling any accelerants.
4.) Since we know that an accelerant was not used. That means the clothes were burned as is. But like you said a small fire would need to be started say with coal or paper. However, this would mean that the clothes would burn rather slowly.(The clothes are not flame retardant, however the fire still wouldn't burn quickly.) Hence, if Kelly was killed between 9 to 10 a.m. the fire would still be burning when Bowyer, McCarthy and probably even Inspector Beck looked into the room, yet no fire was reported to be burning at the time, nor was the smell from burning clothing(the hat itself would give off a powerful enough odor to be recognized) reported by the three.
Let's say hypothetically Jack did kill Kelly at 9 a.m. It would take him a minimum of 45 minutes to perform the mutilations.(Remember he is not just removing the organs and placing them about, but he's fileting her thigh to the bone, abducting one of the arms, and slicing up her face.) Then if Jack is burning clothing, the fire would be used after the mutilations to Kelly's body. Meaning that the clothing wouldn't start burning to 9:45 a.m. giving only an hour for all the clothing.(3 kids shirts, a bodice, skirt, and hat.) to have burnt up and the fire to go out before Bowyer shows up at the window. It would have easily taken much longer for this.
5.) You are incorrect about the slowing down and stopping at the 50 Degree mark. Some recent experiments show that the body can still proceed to go through Rigor at 35 Degrees and only when it hits about 27 Degrees does Rigor begin to fully stop.(This test was actually done to measure how the amount of Muscle Tissue(Large or Small) effects Rigor as well as at different Temperatures.) Plus I'm sure you are well aware that Rigor can increase up well into the 8 to 10 hour mark. Especially when we are dealing with a body that is 'comparitively cold' as Bond reported, and that has a SEVERE loss of fluid and tissue. Kelly was basically just a set of limbs. One arm was abducted, one thigh was fileted to the bone, there was very little tissue connecting the other leg and arm to the trunk. So Rigor would take place MUCH MORE slowly in Kelly than a typical body.
All of this taken together would give you a time of death at least before Maxwell was reported to have seen Kelly.(The latest time of death would be 8 a.m. but still could stretch to the 3 a.m. to 4 a.m. mark)
Regards,
Chris H. |
Author: Timsta
Thursday, 23 January 2003 - 09:13 am | | Chris:
I'm intrigued by your 45 minute estimate to carry out the mutilations. I've never cut up a dead body (I swear, guv) but I reckon I could make a pretty mess out of about 100 chickens in that time. You really think it would take that long to carry out? (I'm assuming nothing in the injuries was particularly 'planned' apart from the general evisceration.)
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 23 January 2003 - 10:58 am | | First, we do not know when Kelly ate her last meal nor do we know what her last meal consisted of. There was fish and potatoes in her system but as I stated an earlier post on this thread, potatoes can take longer than fish to pass through the system, so it is possible that remnants from two meals are present in her. When did Kelly eat? midnight, 6-6:30 a.m., after she blew or after her conversation with Maxwell? If, indeed , she was sick enough to vomit then I am sure she, in all likelihood, had diarrhea also. Unless of course it was just the alcohol.
The time of death of Kelly, in my opinion, is 9:30 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. Based on a light meal taking approximately 2 hours to move from the stomach into the intestines, this could place her last meal at approximately 7:30 a.m. to 8:00 a.m., approximately means 30 min. to 1 hour. We also have to consider at what time did Kelly vomit. Did she do it while Maxwell was standing there, as Maxwell was approaching her, earlier that morning or was it Kelly vomit at all. Of all time of death of factors, digestion is one that can be affected the most by outside variables. If Kelly truly was sick then her digestion could have been faster or slower than normal. The most that can be said is that Kelly died on a full stomach.
Second, I never said an accelerant was used. In fact I do not believe one was used. I merely mentioned the effects of one, had one been used. Which was a mistake on my part to even mention it, especially following the two stupid e-mails I received from posters stating things like; “Scott, the effects of something as random as fire can hardly be predicted let alone determined....” “What makes you think that man has the ability to control something as unpredictable as fire.” To these two I have to say, you know who you are and you are...well, stupid. Let’s just hope your house does not burn down and your insurance company list it as a suspicious claim, forcing you to rely on a Fire Cause and Origin Specialist. I should mention that I am not a specialist but I have had training in Fire Science and I am CFI and CFEI certified. From now on I’ll just stay away from certain forensic sciences that I deem to complicated for the average lay person, ballistics, fire science, blood spatter, damn sure gonna steer clear of traffic accident reconstruction and DNA.
Third, I am sure the odor of a burning hat would be lingering as would the odor form anything that was burned. I am sure that if the fire was burned at 4:00a.m. there would be a lingering smell of glue. We also do not know at what point the fire was lit nor do we know who lit the fire. Maybe, Kelly already had the fire lit. Neither do we know if the fire burned out on its own or was put out. Contrary to popular belief clothing consumes rather quickly. But then I’m talking fire science again.
My experience as a detective has taught me that just because the initial report from the first officer on scene does not mention a fact does not mean that the fact was not present nor does it mean that the officer, or detective in some cases, assigned any particular value or attention to its presence. this is why detectives have to question the first officer and crime scene people who were present at the scene.
Fourth, only under normal circumstances, does rigor stop or slow down at the 50 degree Fahrenheit mark. I mentioned earlier about the experiments conducted at the Body Farm stating that in 45 degree weather, in humid conditions, rigor still progresses unchecked. So, the only thing I was wrong about was not including the under normal circumstances specifier. I am sure you know that rigor progress fast in instant deaths, cases of extreme muscle exertion prior to death, strangulation deaths, suicides, cases of sickness where a fever has been noted, the elderly, children and other thin muscled massed persons to include those fileted. As for the body being cold at the post mortem attended by Dr. Bond, I would guess the body would be very cold.
Finally, as some of you seem to think, I am not using rigor solely for determining Kelly’s time of death. When rigor is taken in account with the post mortem and statement given by Maxwell it is logical to establish a time of death between 9:30 a.m. and 10:00 a.m.
In short death is 9:30 to 10:00 a.m. rigor begins to set in at 10:30 to 11:00. Under normal circumstances, the arms and legs would begin to show the effects of rigor at 1:30 to 2:00. The hips and shoulders (full rigor) would begin showing 4:30 to 5:00 pm. Following this scenario, if Kelly died at 4:00 she would be in full rigor or approaching full rigor by the time Bond sees her for the first time. If a faster than normal onset would occur the times could be backe up by 30 miutes to an hour which would mean that in any case, Jack would be carving up a stiff Kelly.
True there are a lot of variables that affect rigor mortis, algor mortis, livor mortis, digestion, putrifacation or any other tod factor. But when the factors are analyzed and are consistent with an eye witness statement it cannot be simply dismissed as coincidence. No, it carries just as much, if not more weight, than any other theory. To do so would be legal malpractice.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Chris Hintzen
Thursday, 23 January 2003 - 01:01 pm | | Hi Timsta,
Going over the mutilations that Jack did to Kelly and time it would involve to do each individual mutilation would help you to come to the figure. For instance shedding the flesh off the left inner thigh would take a few minutes. The pool of blood on the right side of the bed, which helped to determine Kelly was killed on this side, would take a couple minutes to develop.(After all the blood doesn't just unload in that one spot in a matter of seconds.) Plus we have the placing of the organs about, as he's taking them out, or even afterward, would take a few seconds each.(Especially when he's moving the body to place them or even to get to them.)
Then of course we can look at the various Doctors speaking over the various murders saying how long it would have taken to commit the various mutilations.(This would only be used as a partial reference of course.)
Hi Scott,
I'm sorry, but I disagree with your time of death. I understand you are not just taking into account Rigor Mortis, and Maxwell's statements. However I feel you are overlooking other evidence as well as the situations surrounding the areas.
Maxwell stated that when asked why didn't Kelly get some alcohol to help her illness, Kelly had said that she did but she 'brought it all up' and pointed towards the vomit in the street.(This is as Maxwell is going out to get her Husbands breakfast, it is on the return that she believes she sees Kelly talking to the gentelman outside the Britannia.)
Kelly is known at the Britannia, it is one of her usual haunts, we know this from both testimony and news reports from friends of Kelly's.(Including those who work at the Britannia and have known Kelly for years.) Yet no one else remembers spotting her there. But then again let's just say that they didn't.
As for Kelly being found dead on a full stomach, this is incorrect. All that was found was some of the food in the remains of the stomach, and entering the small intestine, and that presence of the meal was found throughout the intestines. Meaning that digestion had been in full progression.(At least through the small intestine.) So you're looking at more than just a couple hours of digestion, closer to 3 or 4 if not more.
However, again this isn't exactly here nor there, because if she was killed say at 4 a.m., then her last meal could have been at 1 a.m.. Or if Kelly was killed at 10 a.m. her last meal was at 7 a.m.
As for the lingering smell and the fire still burning, no such smell was evident in any of the statements made by either those officials on the scene or even Bowyer and McCarthy.(Who we see interviewed by various papers over several weeks.) So it might be possible that the initial reports may not have it, but subsequent reports seeking the latest and tiniest piece of information would eventually get at that information. Let's not forget that the Doctor's thorough reports never state anything about any smells, even though, as you and I both know, would help determine time of death.
I've actually been through a few fires, myself. I've sifted through the rubble less than a few hours after the fire was contained and put out. I had a Pool Table go through a fire once. The adhesive glue used to hold down the cloth is similar to glues used for regular clothing. I moved this Table out from an enclosed room, that was maybe a few feet larger than Mary's room, about 6 hours after the fire had been put out. The table was in BAD shape, part of the Slate(the hard top of the table) had been melted. However, the smell from it was minimal and hardly noticable compared to the other smells in the room. Out of the same room we pulled out a Phonograph a few hours later. Now the machine was halfway melted.(The plastic face and the 45's inside had bowed from the heat.) The smell was still overpowering as you got close to it, even after 8 hours.
So what we are dealing with is two different types of materials. A glue and wire, used for the Petticoat and Hat burned, would burn slowly however the smells would not be so powerful Several Hours after the fire that consumed them burned compared to as if the fire had just extinquished shortly before.(Which I'm sure anyone whose ever witnessed a fire up close will tell you.) So if the clothing was burned by the killer, and the murder happened around 9:30 to 10 a.m. the smell from it would be noticable to those who peeped in through the window at 11 a.m.(I mean you can smell a wood fire an hour after it had been extinquished, yet we're talking about things that give off a more noticable odor. Yet you are saying no one recognizes it, or even makes a report on that which can determine when the killer was with Kelly?)
But let's say you are correct, that the smell would still linger if Kelly was killed at 4 a.m. Wouldn't that mean the smell would be even stronger if she were killed at 10 a.m.? Yet again no report is made of this. I'm sorry but this is a bit far fetched, especially after ignoring the factors I've stated above.
Yes, Rigor Mortis does occur much faster in those that have major 'exertion' before death. However, it is medical fact that the less tissue and less fluids that a corpse has slows Rigor Mortis down. After all, Rigor Mortis is measured by stiffness in the muscles of the joints. In Kelly's case there are very few joints left that either: A.) Has muscle tissue intact, or B.) The muscle tissue is not exposed to the elements. This given with the factor that her body was cool, would mean Rigor would work much more slowly.(She probably wouldn't even begin the stages of Rigor till after the first couple of hours. compared to the typical 30 minutes to an hour.) Any slaughterer and hunter who has filetted an animal not long after it's death would attest to this.
And lastly you are forgetting the testimony of others which works in conjunction with the Dr. Bond's report. For instance, Mrs. Cox and Elizabeth Prater's statements of hearing the cry of 'Murder' at around 4 a.m.(This fits with the Rigor Mortis and Digestive Evidence reported by Dr. Bond. Especially when taking into account Mrs. Cox seeing Mary around 12 a.m. coming back to her room from drinking out with a gentleman, which is where she could have gotten her last meal.) Plus Maxwell's husband reporting that he himself disbelieved his wife's statement. And Maxwell's own admissions that she didn't really know Mary, only talked to her twice in four months, added to the fact of the mistakes that Maxwell made about Kelly and her personality, makes her an unreliable witness at best.(I.E. Maxwell stating that Kelly was a loner and a quiet girl, while all of her friends had known her to parade around with several others in tow.)
And let's not even mention the possibility of someone walking along the busy streets around 10:30 a.m. in clothes that would be blood covered would cause a mob hounding the person.
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this, because all the evidence I find points more towards Kelly being killed around the 4 a.m. and not towards the 9:30 to 10 a.m. time frame you suggest. The only evidence I find that even points assuredly at this later time frame would be Maxwell's testimony which is a bit dubious at best. While most of the other evidence, which is from much more reliable sources, points to an earlier time frame.
Regards,
Chris H. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Thursday, 23 January 2003 - 03:55 pm | | We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not what source(s) you are citing but all of the forensic courses I’ve taken and the homicides I have investigated state and show that the smaller the muscle mass the quicker the onset of rigor. This even goes for mutilated corpses. And I do know how rigor mortis is measured as I have tugged and pulled on a few human bodies in my career.
As far as the odor of the fuel used in the fire is concerned, just because no one notes it does not mean it was there or not there. In fact because it is not mentioned one way or the other makes it a non-issue. In modern police work statements would be taken from those who first on the scene regarding an issue such as this, even if the answer’s were I do not remember, I do not know. Taking statements such as these are a prosecution trick known as neutralizing a witness.
I was being sarcastic when I said Kelly died on a full stomach. But since we are on the subject, the only thing noted of any worth is in the post mortem of Dr. bond. The only thing that can be said is that fish and potatoes were found in her stomach and abdominal cavity. Now was this one, two or possibly three meals we are talking about? I also mentioned that the digestive information is more affected by outside variables than rigor mortis. So I do not place a lot of credibility on this factor when taken alone. But when combined with basic information and the forensic data available there is a consistent time frame. Bond also states that the fish and potatoes were also found in the part of the stomach attached to the intestines. This tells me that all of the food had not passed. This tells me that a light meal of fish would, under normal circumstances, begin to digest in 2-3 hours.
Cox stated she heard no cry of murder. It was Prater and Lewis who heard the cries. A cry that neither of them paid any particular attention towards.
As for fires, I’ve kicked through more than my fair share, mostly as a private investigator working for insurance companies or for defense attorneys defending someone accused of arson. I know the damage it can cause. So basically if you want to believe that Kelly died at 4:00 a.m. then go ahead but all the forensic evidence and all my experience and training tells me otherwise.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: richard nunweek
Friday, 24 January 2003 - 07:14 am | | hi everyone.
i am not an expert on rigor,or digestion etc, but on balance i find in favour of scott.
mayby i am bias, because i am most certainly in favour of mrs maxwells statement.the most obvious reason for her evidence being true is why would she state she saw kelly at 8am approx, when it had been well documented on the other murders that they had all been killed during the night, surely if she was a attention seeker she would have said something like ; i saw her alone in dorset street about midnight just before going to bed;
also maurice lewis nov 10th statement in the times saying he saw her leave her room at 8am and go back. this is in print so he must have told the reporter that again , why lie?.
the only explanation for lying was that because the body was not discovered untill 1045am , maxwell and lewis assumed that she must have been just killed ,therefore made out they saw her during the morning for attention or some financial gain.
scott.
your 38 theory and my 39 theory have been intresting threads,it has certainly irritated some posters, however whether your right or i am i am like you in believing that there i major significance to them. tell you what lets add your 38 and my 39 together = 77 then divide by 2= 38.5 then we are both right .
regards richard. |
Author: Michael Thompson
Friday, 24 January 2003 - 07:19 am | | | I have just finished Alan Moore's (very!) graphic novel "From Hell". A point is made at the Kelly scene which I had not previously considered. This is the appalling smell in the room due to the mutilated corpse. I don't have the book in front of me, but in it Abberline says something along the lines of "we're all s**t and dogmeat". I believe that this incredibly obnoxious smell would have totally masked any other in such a small room e.g from the burnt items and any accelerant used. |
Author: Peter J. C. Tabord
Friday, 24 January 2003 - 09:36 am | | While I accept that we do not know for certain that Kelly's last meal was fish and chips, (or fish pie, for that matter) both would be a highly unusual choice for breakfast in the UK but fish and chips is a very common late night snack. I don't know what hours the fish fryers kept in Whitechapel in 1888, but certainly in the last 50 years they wouldn't be open before 11.00 am.
In the end, this seems to be insoluble - Maxwell's evidence simply doesn't fit into most concepts of the crime, including contemporary ones. On the other hand, if it is true, it makes the Kelly murder even more unlike the others. |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Friday, 24 January 2003 - 10:10 am | | It could also explain where his light source came from, a room thats curtained is much lighter in daytime than in the early hours of the morning.
But I can't believe she was killed so late in the morning. Rick |
|
|
|
|
