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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
What Did Jack and Mary Kelly Talk About?
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
What Did Jack and Mary Kelly Talk About?
Author: James Jeffrey Paul
Tuesday, 07 January 2003 - 11:39 pm |        | | Assuming that Hutchinson saw Jack with Mary Kelly, then about a half-hour to an hour elapsed between the approximate time they went into her room and when Mary cried out "Oh! Murder!" What transpired during that missing time? Could they have engaged in intercourse together? (Seems unlikely, if Jack had to go to such violent lengths in order to get his "jollies.") Or could they have TALKED for a long while, and then Mary went to bed, thinking she would service Jack, only to be murdered by him? That seems more probable. What do all of you think? |
Author: Brian Schoeneman
Wednesday, 08 January 2003 - 11:52 am | | James,
The hardest part of answering that question is your assumption that Hutchinson wasn't wrong. 
So, blocking out my knee jerk reaction of "he didn't see Jack with Mary Kelly", and postulating, I would guess that they were probably haggling over the price, and/or the location. I'm sure Jack wanted to make sure that Mary wasn't trying to con him, or rob him by taking him back to her room.
As for what happened when they got there, probably not much. I'm not sure if I completely buy the "oh, murder" quote either, so it's hard for me to postulate within that time frame.
Tough question, bud.
B |
Author: David Jetson
Wednesday, 08 January 2003 - 01:01 pm | | Seeing as how we don't know a lot about Kelly, and we don't know jack about Jack, there isn't a lot to base any guesses on. Could have been anything, but most likely what Brian says above.
I didn't really need to answer this, I just really wanted to say "we don't know jack about Jack." |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Wednesday, 08 January 2003 - 11:34 pm | | Hi James,
That's a good question - unfortunately one that cannot be resolved definitively.
Indeed, as noted, we cannot be sure that Hutchinson actually saw the killer with Kelly - nor do we know for certain that the "oh murder" cry actually came from Kelly.
But let us assume that those pieces of testimony are true and accurate - the time frames are still problematical.
We don't know if any of the witnesses wore watches and there is good reason to believe that they may have been intoxicated. Their statements appear to give rather vague estimates of the time frames.
Still, your suggestion that the killer spent at least 30 minutes with Kelly prior to the attack has merit. Two neighbors reported hearing the "oh murder" cry. Hutchinson, who testified he waited outside Mary's flat for over a half hour after she and her companion entered never reported hearing such a cry.
Still, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. One of Mary's acquaintences reported seeing her at 8am hung over - several hours after her estimated time of death.
Rich |
Author: richard nunweek
Thursday, 09 January 2003 - 12:43 pm | | HI everyone
i believe mary kelly was set up according to hutchinsons statement she walked up to him and asked him to lend him sixpence on saying he had no money she walked back where a toff ie. according to hutchinson put out his arm where upon they both burst out laughing the man then said you will be allright for what i have told you where was the time lapse for him to have a conversation? it seems to me that this was no stranger to kelly .they had met previously and discussed something that kelly believed would benefit her.if kelly did not know the man and he was dressed in attire which hutchinson described she would never go with him most certainly to the privacy of her room . she must have known him and was not at all alarmed by his appearence .maybe she thought she was coming into some financial gain which would take her out of the dire straits she found herself. i suspect her killer played mind games with her for an hour or so before attacking her suddenly . the cry OH MURDER would suggest she was totally surprised all this is possible only if you believe she was killed by hutchinsons gent .i have a open mind on this just thought i would make this observation
regards richard |
Author: James Jeffrey Paul
Thursday, 09 January 2003 - 03:25 pm | | Richard--Couldn't Jack have whispered something to her like, "I'm looking for a roll in the hay" or something like that? Or "I'm looking for a lady to show me a good time"? Some witty but smarmy comment about sex would probably have made even a more experienced prostitute than Mary laugh.
Or maybe he said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" or "I didn't inhale" or "Oral sex is not really sex"!
I mean, we really DON'T know where Bill Clinton was on the nights of the murders, do we? |
Author: richard nunweek
Friday, 10 January 2003 - 12:18 pm | | BLIMEY JAMES.
clinton keeps his age remarkably well.of course hutchinsons man could have said any kind of remark to make kelly laugh, it must have been funny to make them both burst out laughing.my point was kelly said ALRIGHT, and he said YOU WILL BE ALRIGHT FOR WHAT I HAVE TOLD YOU.indicating some other kind of conversation which considering hutchinson heard kelly say ALRIGHT.BUT HE NEVER HEARD ANY OTHER CONVERSATION THAT THE MAN SAID,INDICATING THAT HE HAD TOLD HER SOMETHING EARLIER.i will mention one other point the hankerchief which this mystery man gave kelly ,because she said she had lost hers .
question why does one usually require a hanky something in your eye or mayby symptons of a cold.one mystery here is caroline maxwells statement the following morning , some board members have said in the past that maxwell never said the following statement ;HER EYES LOOKED QUEER LIKE SHE WAS SUFFERING FROM A HEAVY COLD;but i have seen that passage before i thought from leonard matters book .donald mccormack also makes a similiar point saying ALL MUFFED UP LIKE A COLD . point of all this being if kelly was killed between 230 am and 8am and if kelly was suffering from a cold then mrs maxwell made that observation after she was killed which of couse would be impossible . she got the day wrong is extremly unlikely because her story of returning items to somebody was checked and found to be on the morning of the 9th .got carried away there but i do like making original observations not all that recent actually i had a correspondence with colin wilson over this back in 1975 he recommended i should write to don rumberlow and join his jack the ripper club .but alas don wrote to me and said the idea of such a club was just tonque in cheek
regards richard |
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