Author: John Savage
Monday, 25 February 2002 - 08:45 pm |        |
Hi Jack,
Many thanks for that information, I have sent for this and look forward to an interesting read.
Best Regards
John Savage |
Author: Nick B
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 04:32 am | |
Hey There,
I am working with a mate to make a 3D fully working model of Miller's Court and MJKs Room.
It will be a 3D environment that you can walk around (in the court and into the room). It will not have any of the gore, it will be just the room with furnishings.
It will be quite well detailed, with the software used to create it, being the same ones used for modern 3D Animation and video games.
This will allow people to get an idea of what it the area was like back in 1888. As it's vastly changed since then.
If anybody has any ideas of what should be in this 3D environment, please let me know. And if anybody has worked out measurements of the court etc etc, also let me know, this will allow us to make it
to scale (As much as possible).
Also, if you have a picture of the broken window with the breakage traced, please post it so I Can look. As ive seen a few versions and I have my idea of how it was broken. (But it changes from monitor to monitor).
Thanks Heaps
Nick. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 06:04 am | |
Hi Nick,
Go over to Casebook productions
http://www.casebook-productions.org/main.htm
Click on 'Explore JTR', from the drop-down menu select 'Animations'. You will find 2 three-dimentional renderings of Mary Kelly's Room.
Then click on the maps of Dorset Street for more detailed information of what Miller's Court looked like. If you have Sugden or Tully's book, both have a detailed drawing of Miller's court.
On second thought, Viper wrote an article about Dorset Street and Miller's Court. Here's the link:
http://www.casebook-productions.org/rn/vol2/rn08dossier.htm
And don't forget the pics posted here at the Casebook:
http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/sitepics.w-miller.html
Also check out this picture laden-thread (scroll down about halfway):Ripper Victims: Specific Victims: Mary Jane Kelly: The Kelly Crime Scene Photographs: Archive through 21 February 2001
I believe you can reach it with this link (I posted thread name in case you can't)
http://forum.casebook.org/messages/3/3430.html?1003457707
This should give you some ideas and help to get you started. Don't forget to post it when you are done so that we can all see. Good luck!
Cheers,
John |
Author: Nick B
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 07:23 am | |
G'day John,
Yeah we have used the drawing of Miller's Court from Sugdens book as the base for the model.
Ive also used the crime scene photos for scale, etc etc.
http://www.casebook-productions.org/rn/vol2/rn08dossier.htm is very usefull. Thanks
Thanks for the info on the Casebook Productions 3D Renderings. I may have seen them before but they will help anyway.
As soon as it's done, ill let everybody know where they can get it from.
Thanks Again!
Nick. |
Author: Jack Traisson
Sunday, 03 March 2002 - 10:28 pm | |
Attn: David Rhea,
Earlier on this thread you asked about the meaning of MJK's nickname 'Black Mary'. I have found another possibility. From the 'Daily Telegraph', November 10, 1888. In describing the way Mary Kelly clothed herself, it states: "Usually she wore a black, silk dress, and often a black jacket..."
So the nickname may have been a reference to her appearance after all.
Anyway, I thought you would like to know.
Cheers,
John |
Author: P. Ingerson
Friday, 19 April 2002 - 11:27 am | |
Hi, everyone.
Sorry to be a nuisance asking all these silly newbie questions, but did Dr. Bond, or the other police surgeons, ever give a time of death for MJK based on her rigor mortis, etc? There doesn't seem to be one in either the post-mortem or the inquest text quoted on the Casebook website. (Or if there is, I must've missed it!)
I've got some ideas about MJK's murder -- just speculation at this stage -- but I'd like to know the medical experts' EXACT words about the time of death before I can make up my mind whether to go any further.
Thanks. |
Author: Robert Maloney
Friday, 19 April 2002 - 12:48 pm | |
Here is a theory worth disregarding....or is it?
That Astrakhan Man or Astrakhan Manikin as the case might have been, was none other than MARia HARvey.
Rob |
Author: maria giordano
Friday, 19 April 2002 - 02:01 pm | |
I've been wondering about rigor mortis in the Kelly case too.
Wouldn't the denuding of the body of so much flesh make the onset of rigor sooner than expected for an otherwise intact victim? Does anyone know if the doctors back then took this into account? |
Author: Richard P. Dewar
Friday, 19 April 2002 - 04:00 pm | |
Hi all,
Donald Rumbelow in his book "The Complete Jack the Ripper" makes the telling point that Kelly's body was not examined until well after 1pm and that any estimate of her time of death, due to the unknown factors of the chilly night/warmth of a fire burning in the fire place, make estimating time of death based on rigor mortis problematic.
Rich |
Author: Philip C. Dowe
Saturday, 20 April 2002 - 02:41 am | |
Hi all,
according to the Casebook the following times are given:
10.45 am discovery of body
11.15 am door openend shortly after the arrival Arnold
2.00 pm am arrival of Bond
after 4.00 p.m end of post-mortem on the spot
Dr. Bond states in his report that the probable time of the murder was 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning. She was killed about 12 hours before he saw her and 3 to 4 hours after taking her last meal.
Philip |
Author: Jack Traisson
Saturday, 20 April 2002 - 04:20 am | |
Hi All,
Inspector Beck arrives with Walter Dew shortly after 11 am.
Beck sends for Dr Philips and sends dispatches for
Abberline and Reid. He also sends for the bloodhounds. Miller's Court is sealed with no one allowed to leave, and only authorized persons allowed entrance.
Dr Phillips arrives at 11:15 am
Abberline arrives at 11:30 am
Arnold arrives around 1:30 pm to inform everyone that the bloodhounds are not coming. On his order, the door is forced. The Doctors are the first to enter the room. Bond and Phillips make a cursory examination. Abberline and company have a look around, and many photographs are taken, of which two have survived.
Mary Kelly's body is removed to Shoreditch Mortuary just after 4 pm. The room is boarded and locked, and policemen are posted at the entrance of Miller's Court to keep the curious away.
According to Sarah Lewis' Inquest testimony, she leaves the Keyler's at 5:30 pm after the Police allow the occupants to leave the Court. By this time all would have been questioned and initial searches concluded.
Postmortem on Mary Kelly performed later that day. Present were: Dr. Bond, Dr. Dukes, Dr. Brown, Dr. Phillips, and Phillips' assistant. Even though Dr. Bond states a time of death between 1 and 2 am in his HO Report, he also says "... it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty the exact time that had elapsed since death as the period varies from 6 to 12 hours before rigidity sets in."
Maria, and Richard,
There has already been plenty of discussion over the last several years on Kelly's time of death if you look up past threads with the keyword search.
All the best,
John |
Author: chris scott
Thursday, 21 November 2002 - 11:34 am | |
Mary Kelly's father?
I searched in the 1881 census looking for the following
1) Name JOHN KELLY
2) Born in Ireland
3) resident in Wales
4) Working in an Iron Works
Only one possibility emerged and the details of the household are as below:
Address:
Gibson's Square
Trevethin
Monmouth
Wales
Head:
Mary Madden: widowed aged 50 born Mon, Ireland
Michael Madden: aged 13, born Trevethin, Monmouth (son)
Timothy Madden: aged 10, born Trevethin, Monmouth (son)
Boarders:
John Kelly: aged 50, born Ireland Labourer at Iron Works
James Kelly: aged 15, born Trevthin, Monmouth Labourer at Iron Works
Juhannah Kelly: aged 13, born Trevethin, Monmouth Domestic Servant
Please note that the spelling of Juhannah is as in the Census entry and should presumably by Johannah
I hope this is of interest
Chris Scott |
Author: Monty
Tuesday, 26 November 2002 - 11:39 am | |
PEOPLE,
Sorry, caps lock off.
Just a quickie.
How long would it take the murderer of Mary to commit his destruction of her body ??
5 min ? 10...15 ??
It would help me,
Thanks in anticipation,
Monty
 |
Author: chris scott
Tuesday, 26 November 2002 - 03:35 pm | |
JOSEPH FLEMING
The A-Z says re Mary Kelly:
"...Joseph Fleming, a mason or plasterer from the vicinty of Bethnal Green, with whom she (Kelly) had been associating prior to meeting Barnett, who used to visit her while she was with Barnett and of whom she was apparently very fond."
There was a slight variant of spelling when I found the man I believe to be him in the 1881 census. Details below:
Address:
61 Crozier Terrace
London
Head of Household:
Ellen Copping
Born 1846 in Hackney, Middlesex
Aged 35
Laundress
Widowed
Daughter:
Emily Copping
Born 1868 in Hackney, Middlesex
Aged 13
No occupation
Daughter:
Ann Copping
Born 1879 in Homerton, Middlesex
Aged 2
Lodger:
John Percy
Born 1854 in Bethnal Green, Middlesex
Aged 27
Rope maker
Unmarried
Lodger:
Joseph Flemming
Born 1859 in Bethnal Green, Middlesex
Aged 22
Plasterer
Unmarried
Regards
Chris Scott |
Author: Stan Russo
Tuesday, 26 November 2002 - 07:25 pm | |
Monty,
I'm just estimating here but due to the removal of the heart, the destruction of her face, removal of flaps of skin on her thighs, and the other mutilations, I'd say approximately 25 minutes. Definitely longer than any previous victim.
STAN |
Author: Jim DiPalma
Wednesday, 27 November 2002 - 08:51 am | |
Hi Monty,
My guesstimate, FWIW, is something on the order of 30 minutes or so. I don't believe he would have lingered for the 2-3 hours I've read in some accounts.
Let's look at the Eddowes murder by way of comparison. If we accept the reported times, then Eddowes was killed between 1:35 and 1:44, a span of only 9 minutes. Even allowing for some variance in the reported times, the Ripper only had a few minutes to work on her, perhaps 5 minutes at most, and Eddowes was horribly mutilated. He was obviously capable of performing extensive mutilations in a very short period of time.
If you further accept that Kelly and Eddowes were killed by the same hand, then it just doesn't seem likely that the mutilation done to Kelly would have required hours, even allowing that she was somewhat more extensively mutilated than Eddowes.
One man's opinion, FWIW,
Jim |
Author: Scott Nelson
Wednesday, 27 November 2002 - 08:07 pm | |
Agree completely with you Jim, except for the time factor, which I believe was at least two hours or more. Assuming then, that it was the same killer, something may have happened to his mind in the subsequent time interval to cause him to loose his sense of awareness, timing and ripping efficiency. I can't help getting an image of a "David Cohen"-type guy in Kelly's room, savagely mutilating one minute, removed and melancholy the next, then back to ripping, then zoning out again...
I forgot to mention an important caveat, proposed by my good friend David Radka, that the killer may have been engaged in Kelly's room for so long for reasons other than simple drifting in and out of altered staes of consciousness. After all, the Lord Mayor's parade was to take place that very morning... |
Author: chris scott
Thursday, 28 November 2002 - 07:47 pm | |
MRS CARTHY - Mary Kelly's landlady
I thought this entry in the census might be of interest:
MRS CARTHY
Catharine Carthy
Address:
32 Pell Street
London
Born 1831 in Kerry, Ireland
Aged50
Married to
Cormack Carthy
Born 1830 in Kerry, Ireland
Plasterers Labourer
Aged 50
Daughter:
Bridget Carthy
Born 1865 in London
Aged 16
Domestic Servant
PELL STREET was a small sidestreet connecting Cable Street and St Georges's Street at the western end of the Ratcliff Highway. St George's Street was specifically mentioned by Mrs Carthy in connection with Mrs BUKI, Kelly's previous landlady. |
Author: David Radka
Thursday, 28 November 2002 - 08:09 pm | |
Interesting discussion, particularly the idea that the ambience of the Miller's Court affair may have engendered diferent states of mind on the part of the murderer on-scene. This is a neat idea, one I haven't heard before. It is full of possibilities. If you want to be a Ripperologist, you have to be willing to open your own doors...
The way I think of the murderer, however, is that he probably didn't alter his states of consciousness much over the course of his crimes. I see him as pretty mentally stable at the crime scenes, in that the fact of the matter is he always got away. I feel he must have known what he was doing to know when and how to leave. This is just my opinion; could be totally wrong.
The idea of Cohen drifting into and out of self-awareness doesn't seem to tally with Fido's idea of Cohen, as I understand it. It seems to me that Fido pictures his suspect as enjoying one last interval of perfect calm just before the storm of insanity overtook him. He'd thus be effectively insane during the murder series, but on a superficial level still entirely rational. This might well be a real, observable characteristic of some syphillitics. Cohen would thus be like an old-fashioned radio made with vacuum tubes. Once those tubes got fully warmed-up, you could switch off the radio and still hear the station for two or three seconds while the tubes held their charge.
David |
Author: Neal Shelden
Friday, 29 November 2002 - 01:37 pm | |
Hi Chris,
The Carthy names are certainly interesting and one could be the Mrs Carthy known to MJK, but at 1 Breezers Hill was a couple named McCarthy and in 1891 there was prostitutes staying at that house. The woman whose full name was Mary Ann Jane McCarthy was formerely called Brooks, and her husband whom she married in 1884 was called John McCarthy. He had lived in Royal Mint Street previous to the wedding.
It seems likely that the name of McCarthy was wrongly recorded as Carthy but I admit that trying to trace the connection to Elizabeth Phoenix has not been solved yet. So there still remains a possibility that there was a Carthy and McCarthy living in Breezers Hill when MJK lived there? |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 29 November 2002 - 06:27 pm | |
Hi Neal
Many thanks for the comments - very interesting!
Gald you find the stuff of interest - as Im not out to push a particular "candidate" I just post anything in my searches that grabs my interest in the hope it may do the same for others
Many thanks
Chris |
Author: chris scott
Saturday, 30 November 2002 - 11:10 am | |
Mary Kelly's husband: DAVIS or DAVIES
I have searched through the National Database of Mining Deaths in Great Britain 1850-1914 which can be found at
http://www.cmhrc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/deaths.htm
For the file covering 1880-1884 the following names appeared:
JOHN DAVIS (CROSS)Possible alternative name - perhaps we are looking for Mary Jane Cross!!!
T.DAVIS
WILLIAM DAVIS
THOMAS DAVIS
ELI DAVIS
BENJAMIN DAVIS
W.DAVIS
D.DAVIS
J.DAVIS
JOHN DAVIS
JOSEPH DAVIS
JOHN DAVIES
ROBERT DAVIES
WILLIAM DAVIES
EVAN DAVIES
NOAH DAVIES
JAMES DAVIES
GEORGE DAVIES
DAVID DAVIES
JOSEPH DAVIES
J.DAVIES
ENOCH DAVIES
SHADRACK DAVIES
W.DAVIES
THOMAS DAVIES
LEWIS DAVIES
ZEPH. DAVIES
EVAN DAVIES
S.DAVIES
ROBERT DAVIES
RICHARD DAVIES
T.J.DAVIES
HENRY DAVIES
J.L.DAVIES
EDWARD DAVIES
H.DAVIES
BENNET DAVIES
M.DAVIES
T.DAVIES
GRIFFITH DAVIES
JACOB DAVIES
EMANUEL DAVIES
I have omitted injured persons and included only deaths
Out of interest, the number of mining deaths per year for the period in which Davies or davies probably died is
1880 1521
1881 1121
1882 1303
The colliery disasters on record for this same period on record are:
1880:
July 15 Risca 119 killed
December 10 Naval Steam Colliery 96 killed
1881:
January 15 Risca 4 killed
Februrary 11 Coedcae 6 killed
The source for the above with a full listing from 1837 to 1927 is:
http://www.xkeys.freeserve.co.uk/history/colliery.htm |
Author: chris scott
Saturday, 30 November 2002 - 11:28 am | |
Re: Davis or Dvaies
I have since found a site that lists names of fatalities for the appropriate incident:
1880:
December 10th: Naval Colliery, Penygraig
From death roll:
Davies, Charles - Trealaw, Married, 2 Children
Davies, Evan 49 Coedymeibion, Married, 4 Children
Davies, Evan - -
Davies, John 42 Penygraig, Married, 2 Children
Davies, John - -
Davies, John - -
Davies, William - Ffwrdamos, Single
Davies, William R 23 Penygraig, Single
July 15th: Risca, New mine
From death roll:
Davies, James 18, Assistant Mason,
Davies, William 34, Stower,
1882:
February 11: Coedcae, Pontypridd
No DAVIS or DAVIES listed
March 3: Henwaen, Blaina
No DAVIS or DAVIES listed
The source for the above data is:
http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/DisastersList.htm
I hope this is of interest
CS
Please note in my previous post the year for the second 2 incidents should be 1882 and not 1881 |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Saturday, 30 November 2002 - 01:21 pm | |
| Well, it appears that if you were going to be working in a mine around that time, the only prerequsite was that your last name be Davis or Davies! Wonder what all the other last names did? Just of out curiosity, I wonder if there are a lot of Fishers'? I can't get the name Lizzie Fisher out of my mind as a possible MJK alias. |
Author: chris scott
Saturday, 30 November 2002 - 03:57 pm | |
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Cardiff/slaters.1880.html
This is an online directory of Cardiff for 1880 - about the time Mary Kelly was supposed to have gone there. It includes principal staff at the Newport Road Infirmary as follows:
Physicians:
W T Edwards MD
H J Paine MD
Surgeons
W Taylor MD
Alfred Sheen MD
This may help any resaerching that period of her life
CS |
Author: Neal Shelden
Monday, 02 December 2002 - 07:24 am | |
I have just noticed a coincidence while reading about the Frances Coles murder in John Eddleston's book.
A woman who was mistaken (or as Eddleston believes purposely mistaken) for Frances Coles on the night she died by three men called William (Jumbo) Friday, and the Knapton brothers, was standing in the doorway of 42 Royal Mint Street.
This woman who was with her beau, Thomas Fowles, was named 'Kate McCarthy'. She was in fact the youngest sister of the above mentioned (in my post) 'John McCarthy' of 1 Breezers Hill and with whom I believe Mary Jane Kelly had stayed in about 1885. |
Author: Monty
Monday, 02 December 2002 - 11:13 am | |
Ladies and Gents,
Thanks for your input.
It seems that it boils down to the killers state of mind (doh !).
But couldnt there be other factors when timing this ??
The reason I ask is because I was skinning a rabbit at the weekend and it totally shagged me.
I had to stop start. I wondered if Jack would have found similar problems to me. If so then the longer he was there the greater the risk of capture became.
Would he have been aware of this ?
Why was he sure he could commit this awful act without being caught ?
Points to one of two reasons to me
Monty
|
Author: David Knott
Friday, 06 December 2002 - 12:48 pm | |
Hi all,
Does anyone know the original source of the information that Kelly's nickname was 'Black Mary'?
Is there a contemporary newspaper article? |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Saturday, 07 December 2002 - 11:02 am | |
To anybody,
at 06:15, a man's heavy footsteps were heard leaving Miller's Court, there is a good chance they weren't the footsteps of Jack the Ripper, I don't think he would have advertised his leaving so blatantly. Is it possible there was another way out of the Court without going back down the entry?, and if there was,could Jack the Ripper have known of it, do you think?. If there was another exit Joe Barnett would have known of it, and Viper what was on the other side of the wall at the top end of Miller's Court?. Rick
P.S. is it at all possible to talk about Jack the Ripper, instead of Patricia Cornwell? |
Author: The Viper
Saturday, 07 December 2002 - 04:26 pm | |
For anybody needing a quick refresher on the layout of Miller's Court, try Sudgen page 312 (original paperbook) or The News from Whitechapel page 210.
The fence or (more likely) brick wall at the end of the court backed onto the buildings in Brushfield Street, which was the next street parallel to Dorset Street. Brushfield was very built-up and my (admittedly smallscale) maps don't show any way through to the street. As far as I am aware, Rick, the only exit from Miller's Court was the way into it, i.e. the passage between numbers 26 and 27 Dorset St.
Regards, V. |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 29 December 2002 - 03:24 pm | |
| I have begun to wonder if MJK was the intended victim in the last killing. All the other victims were older and much more decrepit. One wonders why he suddenly changed in this respect. Other women had been staying with Kelly for several weeks. If Jack was stalking one of them he might have observed them going in and out of 13 Miller's Court. So on the murder night he creeps into the room and sees a silhouette of someone asleep on the bed. He quickly slits her throat and then discovers that he has killed someone quite different from what he imagined. He then proceeds with the mutilations anyway, driven by whatever dark thing drove him. Does anybody have an age on Maria Harvey? |
Author: Brian Schoeneman
Sunday, 29 December 2002 - 05:06 pm | |
Diana,
The other victims were older, but they didn't appear to be that much older. I doubt Jack stalked any of his victims - he wouldn't have had the time. It appear to me from the times and dates of when he killed his victims (all on weekends or holidays early in the morning) that he must have had steady work, and would not have had the time to go hunting for his victims. He took the first ones available. MJK was ideal - primarily because she had her own lodgings and he could take his time.
I'm not sure of what age Maria Harvey was, but I'd assume she'd be in the same age range as MJK, 25-30.
B |
Author: David Radka
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 02:50 am | |
The Whitechapel murderer was not driven by some dark thing. He was in fact not driven at all.
David |
Author: Dan Norder
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 03:52 pm | |
Yay, another riddle from Radka. I suppose it's too much to hope he simply means that the killer walked.
I too, like David Knott, would be interested in finding what references there are to MJK's supposed "Black Mary" nickname. Anyone?
Dan
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Author: Howard Brown
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 04:47 pm | |
| Dan....You just don't get the cryptic stuff,do you? I now christen anything obtuse,convoluted,hippie mystic,and pseudo-intellectual with the sobriquet....Radkaesque.( @ ) H.Brown 12/30/02 |
Author: Jim DiPalma
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 05:26 pm | |
Hi All,
Sorry Howard, somebody else beat you to it. What you describe has been known as "Radkaboobian" for some years now.
Cheers, 
Jim |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 07:05 pm | |
Dear Jim,
My...You have a long memory!
Rosey :-) |
Author: Diana
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 08:51 pm | |
| Did he really mean to murder Mary Kelly or was he after Maria Harvey? How old was MH? Ahem! |
Author: David Radka
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 09:15 pm | |
Radkaboobian for the common men. Radkaeboobian for those preferring Greek thought.
David |
Author: Diana
Monday, 30 December 2002 - 09:22 pm | |
| What about Jack's intended victim? MH? or MJK? Double Ahem! |
