Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Monday, 11 November 2002 - 05:28 pm |        |
| Do you suppose this would be a plausible undertaking in the future? Of course Annie Chapman is in a community type grave, but don't we know exactly where Stride, Eddowes, and Mary Jane are buried? I can't remember anything about Nichols grave at the moment. Maybe, just maybe there would be evidence to uncover....maybe even some DNA??? I don't know if it would be of any benefit to have a DNA profile but still...I would be interested to hear anyone's opinions on this subject. |
Author: Esther Wilson
Monday, 11 November 2002 - 07:01 pm | |
| This is something that I have been thinking about and am glad that you have brought it up. I don't know what kind of evidence they can find on the bodies now but it would be a miraculous find if something were there and it was finally discovered. But while we are at talking about exhuming the victims bodies....what about some of the suspects bodies? |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Monday, 11 November 2002 - 07:34 pm | |
In the cases of some of the suspects who were
executed for other killings (Chapman, Cream,
Deeming, Mrs. Peacey, Bury)they were buried within
the precincts of the prisons that they were buried
in. It is doubtful, if their remains remain where
placed that the various governments involved
(English, Australian - Victoria, Scottish) would
grant it.
I might suggest something a bit ghoulish if Mary
Kelly's remains were unburied for testing - there
is a process with skulls of making a type of life
mask with rubber, so that one can find out what
poor Mary looked like. I said it was ghoulish,
but it is a matter of real curiosity - especially
as her photos show what the Ripper did to her.
Jeff |
Author: John Dow
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 08:56 am | |
Erm......
Let's not.
J |
Author: Brian Schoeneman
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 09:34 am | |
Brenda,
I really don't think this is a great idea. Even if we could find usable DNA - which is iffy - we have nothing to match it against that's contemporary. In order for the DNA to be useful in finding a suspect, we've got to have DNA from a suspect to test it against. Otherwise, we just have DNA from the victim, which by itself is fairly useless.
Jeff's idea, while being ghoulish, is interesting, but that technique isn't 100% foolproof...we can get an idea of what she looked like, but it won't be like going back in time and taking a polaroid.
Unfortunately, I think we've gleaned all of the clues from the victims that we are going to get, forensically. |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 11:54 am | |
Victorian burial practices are nothing like we know today. Because of lack of space, pretty much all graves were mass graves. Bodies were dumped on top of bodies whether they were in coffins or not. Just because someone has a tombstone erected over the grave doesn't mean they are the only ones buried there.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 12:05 pm | |
While I think it might be a good idea to have some of the victim's DNA on hand against some future development (if you could procure any at all), I think you'd have to have a pretty strong reason to receive permission to go exhume anyone, something more than just curiosity. Imagine what a circus it would be.
I wonder if modern technology is capable yet of producing three-dimensional reconstructions of the victims based on the photographs.
Cheers,
Dave |
Author: Neal Shelden
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 03:19 pm | |
I think that I would be able to get permission from Annie Chapman's family to exhume, but I honestly don't think the body would have any DNA from the killer left on them, so there wouldn't be much point.
Perhaps only Mary Jane Kelly's DNA would be usefull for any possible identification in the future?
All the best
Neal |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 05:06 pm | |
To exhume the bodies and test them for DNA would mean using mtDNA. Considering that time, the enviroment, mold and bacteria are only some of the factors working against one attempting this project, would only place us in the same ship of fools already occupied by Patricia Cornwell.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Tuesday, 12 November 2002 - 06:23 pm | |
Hi, Scott and Neal
Neal, that was interesting information about Annie Chapman's family. I would have assumed the families would fight such a proposition. Then again, I don't know them.
Scott, are you referring to victim DNA or suspect DNA? Both? I agree that it would be an uphill struggle to find any DNA at all, but isn't there a chance that victim DNA might remain in teeth(I've got the Jesse James exhumation in mind)? There's also a case of DNA being extracted from some Acadians from the 1850s in southern Louisiana (you may have heard about this--however, in all fairness, I should mention that a crypt and iron coffins were also involved; the bodies were surely better protected than any JTR victim would be).
Yes, we should expect the bodies to have deteriorated badly (and that's assuming they can be located at all). However, sometimes useful information can still be gleaned from what remains.
By the way, I agree that it would be impossible to find suspect DNA and a waste of time to look for any. The bodies were washed and dressed in fresh clothes, and no doubt handled by several people post-moterm and in preparation for burial.
Here's a scenario where I think it might be useful to have victim DNA on hand: the From Hell letter resurfaces in Canada. Scott, you are well-versed in such matters, and I'm not. Would it be an impossibility to obtain DNA from a hundred and twenty year old blood stain? I admit this is a far-fetched idea. But if not, wouldn't this be a valid reason for an exhumation of Catherine Eddowes, to search for DNA to compare with blood stain DNA)? At worst, we would have another Ripper letter we can dismiss. At best, we have a known and proven letter from the murderer.
Or, in another case, perhaps it might be worthwhile to exhume Mary Kelly, to study her bones. Is it reasonable to believe we could learn something from the cut marks we might expect to find there?
Again, Scott, you know far more than I do about the subject and my scenarios might be silly to those experienced veterans who frequent the boards. My primary interest is fiction, but all good fiction rests on a solid foundation of fact. I'm only a layman who has an interest in such matters as DNA extraction and the study of bones. My understanding of is limited by what I read and see on television. But I do have a sincere interest in furthering my knowledge.
I do believe that to disturb the graves to simply satisfy a ghoulish need to look at the dead JTR victims would be wrong (not that anyone has suggested this should be done).
Regards,
Dave |
Author: Chris Jd
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 01:23 am | |
Eddowes' DNA could be important in case anyone finds a trace of that kidney!
Christian
edit: I overlooked that point in the previous post.
Sorry David! |
Author: Andy & Sue Parlour
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 05:16 am | |
Hello All,
Re the debate on exhumation.
In English law this can only happen in I think 3 instances.
1, if it is in the interest of a current Police inquiry, i.e. as in the case of George Chapman.
2, if it is the subject of a Police enquiry ordered by the Home Office in respect of i.e. the James Henratty case.
3, If it is a Archaeology investigation for historical purposes, in which case the burial must be at least 500 years old.
So all three rule out the exhumation of any JTR victims.
Stewart Evans will, I hope, correct me if I am wrong.
A. |
Author: Paula Wolff
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 07:12 am | |
Well, Andy, you ruined my day. I am feeling just a touch gouhlish this fine morning and am in favor of exhumation of almost anybody, if it's old enough or in question as to how deceased died. I love this DNA thing but, true, it could be very difficult in this case. If Patricia couldn't find any, well, what chance have we? Five hundred years??? Wow. Oh, well, some of my favorite Englishmen are that old by now. Thanks for the report, seriously. It does kind of put the kabash on things exhumed.
Have a ripping day.
Paula |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 09:00 am | |
David,
Acadians from South Louisiana, Oberlin ? Are you from the Oberlin/Oakdale, Louisiana David?
No, sorry I haven’t heard of that. Here in Athens we only receive breaking news concerning the Georgia Flag, REM, the B-52's and anything Bull Dog related.
Yes, teeth and bones do have DNA in them. The problem is that the DNA is all mitochondrial. The good stuff, nuclear DNA degrades with time, moisture, heat, mold and bacteria. Even the super model beauty of the fair Mary Jane Kelly would have succumbed to these variables. The damage to the bones may tell us a few things. With the proper detective work the depth of the wound could be determined and the type of knife could be narrowed, however; this could probably be determined without an exhumination, providing we know certain details such as the measurements of the wounds or cuts on the bones.
As far as blood stains are concerned, unless blood is collected and stored according to proper procedures, then it quickly degrades over time. I would suspect that by now any blood stain remaining from the actual murders is so degraded that scientist would be hard pressed to even identify it as being human much less try to extract DNA from it.
What would be of real interest, and a matter I am currently undertaking, is enlarging the Kelly photo and trying to examine the blood spatter pattern. This could tell us the exact positioning of both Kelly and her murderer with each stroke of the knife. This could also tell us the height of the killer and whether he killed with his right or left hand. The problem here lies in determining what is a blood stain and what is not, since the photo is black and white. To undertake this I am going to have to enlist the help of several people one being a computer type person who may be able to take the photograph and transform it into 3D.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 11:42 am | |
Thanks for your opinions, Scott--I always find your posts interesting.
The Acadians I referred to were in Bayou Lafourche - Thibodaux, Louisiana, which I understand is a small French Acadian town. I've never been to Louisiana--I'm from Maine, but I grew up here in Tennessee (my grandmother is one of these Acadian-ish people, from Caribou, Maine). Are you familiar with something called the Historical Exhumation Project? link.
Cheers,
Dave |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 01:44 pm | |
David,
Thanks for the site link. Thibodaux Louisiana is where I am from. It is about 50 miles West of New Orleans and is home to Nicholls State University, an NCAA Division 1-AA football power house. GO COLONELS!
Thibodaux is a city of approximately 50,000 people and as with most South Louisiana cities was a big Acadian (Cajun) Settlement. It is interesting to note that people in the Rhode Island and Maine areas that are of Acadian descent have the same accent as people in South Louisiana.
Thibodaux is also the home of the late E.B. White, a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. During the American Revolution, Louisiana was under Spanish rule and Governor Galvez worked closely with General Washington in supplying Mexican and Louisiana beef to American forces in New England and the Southern British Colonies. Because the complex network of waterways in Bayou LaFourche provided protection from British Forces seeking to blockade the Mississippi, Thibodaux was where the beef was shipped from. In fact, Spanish and British forces clashed in Thibodaux, in Bayou LaFourche, over the cattle shipments. During French re-occupation of Louisiana under Napoleon, Thibodaux became a vital military post in protecting the Mississippi River and securing the Louisiana Territory. Even today, U.S. Military Doctirne calls for the protection of New Orleans, due to capturing New Orleans would give one control of the Mississippi River and thus cut the U.S. in half. In 1803, Thomas Jefferson of course purchased Louisiana from Napoleon. Napoleon needed the money and Jefferson needed to get Napoleon out of North America. In 1812, New Orleans was known for its lawlessness, a major contribution too that was Bayou Lafourche and Thibodaux being the stomping grounds for pirates and smugglers, most notably French Pirate Jean LaFitte, who of course, assisted Andrew Jackson in repelling British invasion in the Battle of New Orleans .
Well so much for the history lesson, damn I love History, and back to the Ripper.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: David O'Flaherty
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 01:58 pm | |
Scott:
Why, you are nothing but an Acadian yourself! I didn't realize this particular case involved some of your predecessors, so I hope you like that link, although parts of the site seem to be down.
I thought EB White was the author of "Charlotte's Web," and the editor of William Strunk's "Elements of Style." And also a resident of Maine, which I think pretty much everybody can agree is the greatest state in the union 
Cheers,
Dave |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Wednesday, 13 November 2002 - 02:02 pm | |
I meant E.D. White, forgive me. My fingers were moving to fast.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Peter Wood
Saturday, 16 November 2002 - 09:50 am | |
Exhume the victims and the suspects for DNA testing? Excellent idea.
Come on guys, if we can find DNA of fossilised remains that are god only knows how many thousands of years old it's got to be worth a shot.
Who knows what we might find? And remember - we don't need the suspects body for a DNA match, in Sickert's case we could test it against his "son" Joseph. As for any other suspect - any living descendant would do.
Top cherry.
Maybrick not Mibrac. |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Saturday, 16 November 2002 - 12:45 pm | |
| Peter, Surely you mean Sickert's "alleged son" Joseph.What evidence do you have that Joseph is is indeed Walter's son? |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Saturday, 16 November 2002 - 04:15 pm | |
Dear Scott,
Actually Justice Edward D. White was more than
just a U.S. Supreme Court Justice. He was such
from his appointment by President Cleveland until
1910. That year Chief Justice Melville Fuller
died. White was promoted Chief Justice by President Taft (the first Southerner to get that
post since Roger Taney died in 1864, and the only
ex-Confederate to hold the post). He remained
Chief Justice until his death in 1921, when Warren
Harding replaced him with former-President Taft.
In fact, this was the reason Taft chose White for
the post. He did not want to select a young man
(like then Associate Justice Charles Evans Hughes)
who might hold the office for decades. By choosing an older man like White, Taft reasoned that he would be out of the post by death in time
for a new President to consider Taft as successor.
Taft's gamble worked!
Wilson, Taft's Presidential successor, tried to
use a similar trick to avoid a political problem.
In 1916 Charles Evans Hughes was considering
resigning from the Court and running as Republican
candidate for the Presidency against incumbent
Wilson. The President tried to convince Hughes not to, sort of hinting that he'd get "old, sick"
White to resign, and then promote Hughes to the
Chief Justiceship. White heard about this, and
told Hughes that even if he was at death's door
he would stick to the office until Wilson was out
of office. In 1916 he was not as ill as that, but
he did stick it out...until the Republicans were
back in office. Hughes resigned the Associate
Justiceship, got the Republican nomination, and
was narrowly defeated by Wilson. In 1921 he was
Harding's Secretary of State, and in 1930 he was
appointed Chief Justice (finally) by Herbert
Hoover. He would serve until he retired in 1941.
[Boy, I love history too! Now back to Whitechapel]
Jeff |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Saturday, 16 November 2002 - 08:24 pm | |
Thanks Jeff,
There ya go. The E.D. White story, more detailed than I could get without research. I'm curious though, are you a lawyer, from South Louisiana or just a history buff?
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Peter Wood
Sunday, 17 November 2002 - 08:03 am | |
Thus these " ", Ivor. Let's DNA test Joseph against anything that remains of Walters.
Maybe we can fix him up for the Kennedy assassination.
Peter |
Author: Ivor Edwards
Sunday, 17 November 2002 - 02:47 pm | |
Hi Peter, My mistake.
That seems a very good idea Peter we should put that to Joseph I wonder what he would have to say on the matter? It is rather a pity someone did not think to ask him that at the Bournmouth conference he attended.
He needs fixing up for something that is for sure. |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Sunday, 17 November 2002 - 05:32 pm | |
It would be worth the trouble to exhume the victims for DNA. I am with Peter Wood, if they can get a sample (mitochondrial or whatever) from the mummmies, surely they could get some out of a 114 year (going on 115 year) old corpse. Of course those mummies were a heck of a lot better prepared than the bodies of our victims but it would be worth a shot. Who knows what might come up in the future that we could possibly compare DNA to??? (Yeah, I can dream!)
It'll never happen though. As someone pointed out earlier, there would be a lot of hoops to jump through, and I don't think the judge is going to fall for a group of fervant ripperologists. What a precedent that would set, as every halfway famous murder victim would be exhumed for more information. The only way it would ever happen would be for one of the victims' descendants to ask for an exhumation, and even then I don't think they could come up with a good enough reason for it (Aw, come on Judge! I need to know my family's medical history! So what if its ANCIENT medical history?).
Well, I shall be gone from the boards a day or so....my new Ripperologist has arrived! |
Author: Paula Wolff
Sunday, 17 November 2002 - 07:36 pm | |
Hi to all-
I am probably the least informed on the boards but interested. Very. As much as I have read about MJK on the boards(I do not include all the archived stuff-life's not that long!) I've not heard anyone mention what might have happened to the fetus that MJK was carrying. Her heart disappeared, what happened to the baby? I have been rereading Donald Rumbelow's Complete book for about the 3rd or 4th time and he mentions that in the section on Kelly. I vaguely remembered that from reading before, but had forgotten as I have jumped around to Lizzie Borden and Black Dahlia and others. No one else mentions it. I'm in the middle of the MJK chapter in Mr. Evans tome but haven't run across that yet, if it is there. Anyone want to comment? Love to hear comments and opinions. Dogma bothers me a little.
Thanks ya'll.
PtW |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Sunday, 17 November 2002 - 07:41 pm | |
Hi Scott,
Actually I graduated law school, but I've never
practiced. In college I was a history and
political science major.
Glad to assist on the matter of Chief Justice
White. Now, if only I could solve the Whitechapel
Mystery.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Author: Harry Mann
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 04:06 am | |
Peter,
Greetings,nice to hear from you again.Before condemning poor old Joseph and his ramblings,might I suggest a search for descendents of Annie Elizabeth Crook's family.She had a mother and father so possibly brothers and sisters as well,and also numerous other relatives.
If she was pregnant with a royal child,would'nt her relations be the persons she would most likely impart the information to.She had plenty of time,and although her story may have been taken with a grain of salt,perhaps they believed enough to pass the story down.
Second generation children,though now as old as Joseph, might be able to confirm beliefs.To just write the story off as the imaginations of an old man,might be a wrong thing to do.
Harry. |
Author: Peter Wood
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 02:04 pm | |
Absolutely Harry, and a very fair comment to boot. We don't need the victims' families permission to dig up the bodies we'll just employ "Monty and Wood", a latter day Burke and Hare.
Paula, there wasn't a baby - another piece of fiction that has got wound into the JtR legend, I'm afraid.
Peter |
Author: Blue Violet
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 05:28 pm | |
I don't think that exhumation (sp?) in this case would be very helpful after so many years. A few weeks ago they finally identified a little boy who died on the Titanic. After the disaster his body was recovered from the ocean and buried in a cemetary in Halifax. It seems that only a few teeth and a bone from one of his wrists were all that remained after the passage of time, and that was due to a medallion placed in his coffin by the sailors who recovered his body and provided for his burial. (Which is rather touching actually.)
But getting back to the Ripper victims &/or suspects, given the above I don't see how much could remain over a century later even if the bodies were well embalmed. Unless the remains of adults would disintegrate more slowly perhaps.
P.S: I just looked it up and the little boy was a Swedish immigrant named Eino Viljami Panula, who died aged 13 months.
P.S to Scott: I'm from Athens, too. Small world.
-Blue Violet |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 07:03 pm | |
Violet,
The world seems to be getting smaller. There is another poster on the board -Vila- who is from Colbert. Maybe Athens will become known as the home of Ripperites, more so, than the home of REM, The B-52s and Wide Spread Panic. In fact, maybe if we get Michael Stipe interested he can front us 6 million bucks.
Do you work at the Athens Library or the UGA Library? I am at both quite frequently. Usually, I am in the research area. In the Athens-Clarke Library, I am usually checking out business information on corporations I have been given to background. In the UGA Library, I am usually in the archives checking out the 1888 editions of the London Times.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Vila
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 10:02 pm | |
Hello Violet,
As Scott said, the world is getting smaller. Perhaps the next time he and I get together you'd be able to join us? Think of it as a small JTR convention- Or in my case, an excuse to put faces and voices to the posters here on the Boards as well as socialize with the ones close by.
Of course, that would mean that I'd have to take my girlfriend out to dinner again, afterward. (She was just the tiniest bit irked that I didn't take her along when Scott and I met for lunch, but I knew that she would have been bored to tears with all the Ripper talk.) Are you an Athens native, or a transplant to our lovely town?
Vila |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 18 November 2002 - 10:32 pm | |
There ya go Vila,
The Athens Georgia Ripper Convention. Featuring our own Ripper walk. Start out at the 40 Watt... This is where the Ripper Jammed. Continue to Jerseys...this is where the Ripper watched the Dawgs when he couldn't get tickets to Sanford Stadium. Then down to the Porter House...this is where the Ripper practiced his cutting, he usualy did so on a 16 oz Ribeye. Then end up at The Downtown Bar....this is where the Ripper knocked back a couple of cold ones before turning in.... And then maybe for a bonus go to the Coloseum.....this is where the Ripper watched the Gym Dawgs. Ok that last one was sick and over the limit.
Peace,
Scott |
Author: Paula Wolff
Tuesday, 19 November 2002 - 09:13 am | |
Peter,
Thank you very much for at least replying to my question of a baby. From whence cometh this fiction? Sounds like someone who knew Mary knew this little item. But then I had not read anything about it before except in D. Rumbelow's book. He doesn't say it's gospel, just reporting what was said. Of course, many prostitutes didn't have penetration according to the same source but if MJK was living with someone, I can see where there may have been a better chance of a baby.
Well, my ignorance is showing again. But thanks, Peter, again for the reply. Oh, where were Eric Burden and The Animals from?
Ta,
Paula |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Tuesday, 19 November 2002 - 05:07 pm | |
| Paula, the baby rumour has been repeated so often that one has to wonder whether there is the slightest shade of truth to it, just maybe? According to several sources, Mary Jane was in a suicidal mind-set at the time of her murder and I can imagine dealing with an unwanted pregnancy would contribute to that feeling. However, nothing was said at the inquest, sooooo..... |
Author: Esther Wilson
Wednesday, 20 November 2002 - 09:52 am | |
I'm not a pathologist but even if she were pregnant at the time of her death, after what happened to her, how would they be able to tell for sure seeing as her insides were pretty much mush? I don't believe there was a baby in the situation I'm just asking a general question.
Esther |
Author: Matti Kurumaa
Wednesday, 20 November 2002 - 11:29 am | |
Hello Every body,
I'm new here. Mostly been an 'observer' of rippeologits - admiring greatly Your discussion board and thanking one and each of You for most
interesting moments - for mi self and for many others.
Sorry for my unprofessional language - I'm from Finland.
I'll try to figure out something new on the matter for You in the near future.
Dear Blue Violet,
The young boy named Eino Viljami Panula who died on the Titanic was not Swedish - he was from Finland.
BR
Matti |
Author: Ally
Wednesday, 20 November 2002 - 12:05 pm | |
Welcome to the boards Matti! Don't worry about unprofessional language... if you've been observing you know that's not realy a priority here.
Ally |
Author: Matti Kurumaa
Wednesday, 20 November 2002 - 01:18 pm | |
Thanks Ally for welcoming,
I have always thought this board as a kind of 'knights of the round table' people atleast as one's looking from distant - still there is enough of common sense and sometimes an ironic sound in it which seems to belong to human behaviour.This is good i mean.
About exhuming - I would be ready to hold the shovel if someone would buy me a flight ticket to Whitechapel and a beer afterwards in the Ten Bell's.
My own interest in JTR began in the sixties when my grandpa told me - him had beeing in the Buffalo Bills Wild West Circus in London sometime
near the turn of the century. We kids used to listen to the stories again and again untill he died 1974. Those where wondorous and also fearfull
stories - first ones about BB and his Injuns and the second ones about JTR. My mother and brothers
have told these further on over the years as a 'true story' althought possibly much extravagant which also where only hearsay.
But the most interesting among them where that according to him many of the Whitechapel inhabitants knew at the time who JTR was.
My mother's 70 years old now and I try to break her memory to tell me everything what she remembers about our 'grandpa in London'.
Brr
Matti |
Author: Vila
Wednesday, 20 November 2002 - 02:35 pm | |
Matti,
I'd like to second your welcome to these Message Boards. And to repeat Ally's comment about language. I found your messages to be easy to understand, and much clearer than any I could manage in a language different than the one I grew up speaking. I admire anyone who can add another language to their abilities.
And please, do tell us more of your Grandfather's time spent in London. I think that the stories sound wonderful.
Vila |
