|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through May 12, 2000
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: Specific Victims:
Elizabeth Stride:
Elizabeth ' Long Liz ' Stride:
Archive through May 12, 2000
Author: Ashling
Wednesday, 03 May 2000 - 04:11 am |        | PETER: Come on, dazzle us with your footwork--we want a-l-l the details. If Liz was illiterate, the Cater card bit becomes even more of a puzzle.
Thanks,
Janice |
Author: Kaye Englmeier
Wednesday, 03 May 2000 - 12:27 pm | | The following statement was taken from the victims section on Ms. Stride ont he Casebook.
"On a Certificate of Change notice filed in Sweden at the time that Liz moved to London it is stated that she could read tolerably well but had little understanding of the Bible or catechism."
Having little understanding of the Bible or catechism doesn't mean the same thing in my book as being illiterate. There are many books that I have read and came away with little or no understanding of, and I, in no way, consider myself to be illiterate.
Seems to me that the Danish zoologist is just as much at fault for creating falshoods as the people purporting to find diaries. |
Author: Kaye Englmeier
Wednesday, 03 May 2000 - 12:30 pm | | The following statement was taken from the victim’s section on Ms. Stride on the Casebook.
"On a Certificate of Change notice filed in Sweden at the time that Liz moved to London it is stated that she could read tolerably well but had little understanding of the Bible or catechism."
Having little understanding of the Bible or catechism doesn't mean the same thing in my book as being illiterate. There are many books that I have read and came away with little or no understanding of, and I, in no way, consider myself to be illiterate.
Seems to me that the Danish zoologist is just as much at fault for creating falsehoods as the people purporting to find diaries. |
Author: Ashling
Wednesday, 03 May 2000 - 08:00 pm | | PETER: Color me red ... Ignore the Cater card reference. Stayed up extra late re-reading Stride inquest testimony & evidently fried my brain -- resulting in cross-wiring Eddowes evidence into the Stride case.
KAYE: Thanks! I couldn't remember where I'd read the reference to Stride's reading abilities. Since I know much of the info on Casebook is culled from Sudgen, I started tracking from there to find the original source.
Sudgen credits his quote to Rumblelow's hardback ...
(Sugden's) Chap. 10, Footnote #6: "For these and other details of Elizabeth's life in Sweden, communicated by Klas Lithner, see Rumblelow, Complete Jack the Ripper (1987), 74-5."
Is Lithner a researcher? Does anyone know?
My 1988 hardback version of Rumblelow, Chap. 3, page 75, reads ...
"The following year, on 7 February 1866, she took out a new certificate of altered residence from the Cathedral parish (in Gothenburg) to the Swedish parish in London. According to the certificate she could read reasonably well but had a poor understanding of the Bible and catechism."
Excerpts of testimony on Oct. 5, 1888 at Stride's inquest from Sven Ollsen, clerk of the Swedish Church at St. George's-in-the East ...
"What was her name?"
"Her name was Elizabeth Stride, and she was the wife of John Thomas Stride, carpenter. Her maiden name was Elizabeth Gustafdotter. She was born at Torlands, near Gothenburg, on Nov. 27, 1843."
"How do you get these facts?
"From the register at our church."
"Do you keep a register of all the members of your church?"
"Of course. We register those who come into this country bringing a certificate and desiring to be registered."
"When was she registered?"
"Her registry is dated July 10, 1866, and she was then registered as an unmarried woman."
The full inquest testimony is readable on the main menu of Casebook.
So, does anyone have a copy of this 1866 certificate? If so, does Peter have documents which contradict it? Over to you, Peter.
Janice |
Author: Christopher T. George
Thursday, 04 May 2000 - 01:06 am | | Hi, Janice:
From Andy and Sue Parlour's "The Jack the Ripper Whitechapel Murders" pages 66-67:
"The Parlours have traced various traditions about Stride through Sven Evander, the Pastor of the Swedish Church in London from 1956-1981. The Pastor at the time [1888] was Johannis Palmer, and the verger, or 'klockare' (bellringer) was Sven Olsson. [Olsson] was married with two daughters and one of his duties was to look after the reading rooms and the Swedish seaman's mission which were situated in a large 3 storey house on the corner of the square opposite the church [the latter located in Prince's Square, now Svendenborg Square]. . . . The mission had the unusual right to dispense alcohol 24 hours a day but only to Scandinavian seamen. Stride was a frequent visitor to the reading rooms where she kept up with the Swedish newspapers. She was known as a highly intelligent woman who spoke English with hardly a trace of an accent. It is also rumoured that she used this venue to pick up Swedish men as clients as she felt easier with them. One of Sven Olsson's duties was to distribute welfare money to the Swedish community and these payments were all entered in an accounts book by the verger. Apparently, Stride often took advantage of this welfare, and she had been to the church for a handout on 20 Sepember and was given one shilling and a Swedish hymn book. (It was the custom to give a Swedish Bible or hymn book when giving welfare, and this hymn book was in her belongings after her death. The 'East London Advertiser' of 6 October 1888 mentioned the book; 'Michael Kidney, the man with whom Stride lived, identified the Swedish hymnbook as belonging to the deceased. She gave it to Mrs Smith the previous Tuesday saying she was going away. She gave it to Mrs Smith, not as a gift, but to take care of.') The Swedish Church was only 200-300 yards from the spot in Berner Street where Liz's body was found on 30 September."
Chris George |
Author: Ashling
Thursday, 04 May 2000 - 05:30 am | | Chris-George: Thanks! Highly intriguing info ... but Sugden has spoiled me--I demand footnotes. ;-)
I just read a briefer, less juicy version of this in Mammoth Book of JtR--which is sans footnotes. Does Sue & Andy's book give "chapter & verse" on the original source(s) of their info? By original sources, I mean documents ... "She was known as" and "It was also rumored" doesn't answer any of my questions above.
Thanks again for the heads up, I've read less than half of the essays in Mammoth so far.
Ashling |
Author: Guy Hatton
Thursday, 04 May 2000 - 09:21 am | | In a word, Ashling - no. The book (actually credited to Kevin O'Donnell "from the researches of Andy and Sue Parlour") gives no specific references to sources other than a simple bibliography (all secondary sources). Not even a single footnote. For instance, on page 37, a report from the Times of October 2 1888 is referred to, but only via an article in the Ripperologist by Paul Daniel. Apart from the Dear Boss letter/postcard and the Lusk letter, the only original documents reproduced relate to Stride : two extracts from the registers of the Swedish Church dated 1879 and September 20 1888, recording the giving of financial assistance, and the entry in the pastor's diary for September 30 1888, purporting to show the name "Jack the Ripper" used before publication of the Dear Boss letter. This and the others look to have been scanned from photocopies rather than the originals.
All the Best
Guy |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Thursday, 04 May 2000 - 12:26 pm | | Greetings:
I met Lars Thomas after he gave a lecture on three Scandinavian mysteries at the Forteant Times Convention. His biog says that "He has written extensively on animals, travels, mysteries, Jack the Ripper, whisky and film-bloopers." He is therefore something of a renaissance man! He seemed pretty sure of his facts, but I'll try to contact him to see whether he has any further details. I take Guy's point about the lack of sources in the O'Donnell/Parlour book but certainly from the inquest testimony (thanks Janice) it seems likely that she had some reading but do we have any evidence for writing?
Incidentally, is Kevin O'Donnell any relation to Peter O'Donnell (Modesty Blaise) or Peter's father Bernard O'Donnell who is connected with the Baroness Cremers/D'Onston Stevenson story?
Peter. |
Author: Christopher T. George
Thursday, 04 May 2000 - 03:14 pm | | Hi, Ashling:
Exactly right that the oral tradition approach to Stride offered by the Parlours leaves something to be desired. Guy is correct in saying that they do reproduce in their book several images of documents related to Stride: as he says, two extracts from the registers of the Swedish Church dated 1879 and September 20, 1888, recording the giving of financial assistance to her, and the entry in the pastor's diary for September 30, 1888, purporting to show the name "Jack the Ripper" used before publication of the Dear Boss letter. Guy is also right that it looks as if the published images are of photocopies of the documents rather than photographs of the original entries. I owe the Parlours a review of their book in "Ripper Notes" and probably will get around to completing it for the next issue.
Chris |
Author: Ashling
Friday, 05 May 2000 - 07:08 am | | Chris, Guy & Peter: Thanks!
Ashling |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Thursday, 11 May 2000 - 10:14 am | | Hello All,
This is Stride's wounds template I made. It is based on the post mortem report:
"The throat was deeply gashed and there was an abrasion of the skin about one and a half inches in diameter, apparently stained with blood, under her right arm"...
"...clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper... and deviated a little downwards."...
"...cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about two inches below the right angle of the jaw."
"Over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and in front of the chest there was a bluish discoloration"
"Dark brown spots were on the anterior surface of the left chin."
 |
Author: Christopher T. George
Thursday, 11 May 2000 - 02:20 pm | | Hi, Jill:
On behalf of the assembled multitude, I wish to thank you for your interesting sketches on the victims' wounds. You are putting a lot of thought into them. They are interesting and valuable to our further understanding of the case. If this has not been suggested earlier, I believe Stephen Ryder might want to collect them all together and have them in a separate place on the site, possibly with the wound descriptions for each victim as given here, for example, for Stride.
Chris George |
Author: Christopher T. George
Thursday, 11 May 2000 - 02:35 pm | | Hi, Simon:
In regard to your ponderings on Liz Stride and the man she was with and the purchase of the grapes, as supposedly witnessed by Berner Street greengrocer Mathew Packer, you might want to check out Dave Yost's excellent article on Packer in Ripperologist, the first part of which available on-line at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7020/yost23.html Dave well points out the problems with Packer's testimony and its possible value in getting us to the truth of the events of 30 September 1888.
Chris George |
Author: Ashling
Thursday, 11 May 2000 - 05:37 pm | | CHRIS: Most excellent suggestion! What say ye, Stephen? May we have a Gallery of Wounds, please?
JILL:
Thank you for all drawings. Before, my concentration was diffused, trying to create a mental picture while I read. Now that I can focus fully on the doctor's descriptions, I'm receiving a deeper understanding of the wounds. In this instance, I'm more convinced than ever that Stride was not a JtR victim.
Thanks,
Janice |
Author: Stephen P. Ryder
Thursday, 11 May 2000 - 06:06 pm | | | If Jill is ok with it, I'd be happy to post the images on the site - could someone please email the lot of them to spryder@casebook.org? Thanks! |
Author: alex chisholm
Thursday, 11 May 2000 - 11:19 pm | | Evening All
I too would like to congratulate and thank Jill for her templates.
I do have one question with regard to Stride’s injuries though. Jill’s drawing seems to suggest two cuts on the neck, one either side, whereas my reading of the evidence has always led me to believe there was a single incision. Am I reading Jill’s drawing wrong, or am I being particularly dense in some other regard?
Sorry to be so thick
Best Wishes
alex |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Friday, 12 May 2000 - 03:31 am | | Hi All,
Thanks I would be happy if they would be used, after all, that's what they are for. But please still have some patience. Because I want to finish them all, and have to improve the one of Annie Chapman (found some extra's in Sugden's). Maybe we could discuss each first, so accuracy can be enhanced.
Alex - thanks for your comment. I also pictured it in my mind as one cut. Bet when comparing the post-mortem in absolute detail to draw it I suddenly noticed this:
"...clear-cut incision on the neck. It was six inches in length and commenced two and a half inches in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, one half inch in over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper... and deviated a little downwards."...
"...cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about two inches below the right angle of the jaw."
So there is mentioning of a cut AND one on the right side. I will recheck by measuring live size (for my own understanding I have to keep transforming the lengths in cm's), to see if the two cuts touched each other.
Stephen - I still have the originals and I will mail them to you, when all are finished.
Greetings,
Jill |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Friday, 12 May 2000 - 04:22 am | | A question to all,
So far I only made a dry template, without the posture of the victims in the way they were found. With layout of posessions and so far.
Because it was the way JtR wanted them to be found. I'm going to do these also, but maybe it would be better to blend these two?
I also have thought to draw schematic models of the victims acoording to their height and weight next to each other. Any help of finding the most accurate measures would be a great help. You can either mail this to my home address jill.deschrijver@planetinternet.be or at work j.deschrijver@zaventem.elsevier.be
As last I mention I will be asking questions in the coming weeks about who was were at what time (preferably the time around the murder). Since I'm also busy trying to make little movies with moving dots on maps. I begun these after I was tired of always mingling up all the PC's and carmans and labourers walking around Buck's Row. So any help would be very grateful: a clear map of roads without building details, the who's, where they were located at a particular time.
Greetings,
Jill |
Author: alex chisholm
Friday, 12 May 2000 - 09:46 am | | Hi Jill
I can see how Phillips’ post-mortem testimony could be taken to refer to two separate cuts. For me, however, the presence of only a single incision is confirmed by Dr. Blackwell’s evidence that, “The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 ½ in. below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it. It nearly severed the vessels on the left side, cut the windpipe completely in two, and terminated on the opposite side 1 ½ in. below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side.” (Times 3 Oct)
Best Wishes
alex |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Friday, 12 May 2000 - 10:34 am | | Thanks Alex,
An improved image:
 |
|
|
|
|
