Author: Neal Shelden
Saturday, 31 August 2002 - 07:18 pm |        |
Thanks Garry and Martin,
Let's hope there's more photos out there to find.
All the best.
Neal. |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 01 September 2002 - 01:36 am | |
| Her eyes look the same and her ears and nose. But her lips in the life photo are thin, almost pinched. In the mortuary photo they are very full. The jawline seems to be the same. |
Author: Neal Shelden
Sunday, 01 September 2002 - 07:03 am | |
Hi Diana,
I find it difficult to tell as to whether her lips are thin on the photo above simply because of the numerous marks and lines that might also make her look as if she has a lump on her left jaw.
I wonder whether it is possible that the lips were full on the mortuary photo because of the possibility that she might have been strangled before her throat was cut. Someone with medical knowledge would probably put me right on that?
All the best
Neal. |
Author: Caroline Morris
Sunday, 01 September 2002 - 07:06 am | |
Hi Garry, Harry,
Do you think it's possible that any medication 'for external use only' may have been labelled 'poison', to clearly distinguish it from medicines to be taken orally?
If Annie was getting into fights on a regular basis, might the milky lotion have been bruise lotion?
Love,
Caz |
Author: Garry Wroe
Sunday, 01 September 2002 - 01:03 pm | |
Hi Caz.
Whilst your suggestion that Annie was a brawler is of course possible, it doesn't seem likely in view of the established and inferential evidence. Given the accounts I have seen, she seems to have been a fairly placid individual and only became involved in the altercation with Eliza Cooper after considerable provokation. Her frail physical condition, too, suggests that she would have avoided rather than courted trouble.
It is also interesting that the bottle was said to have contained a lotion rather than a liniment or an embrocation (which might have been used for the treatment of bruising). But a lotion, and a toxic one at that, suggests to my mind an anti-infestation application. I also have serious doubts that a woman of Annie Chapman's social standing would have been prescribed any medication for superficial bruising. This, after all, was the Victorian age, an era during which the working classes were expected to simply grin and bear it.
Sorry if this seems negative.
Best wishes,
Garry Wroe. |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Sunday, 01 September 2002 - 01:08 pm | |
Dear Caz:
I thought it was a bruise lotion myself, and I believe I recall that labeling a bottle "poison" was indeed a way of stating it was for external use only.
Dear Neal:
My knowledge is limited, but yes, I think I recall strangulation could cause her lips to puff. Death also can cause the body to bloat and puff up as well.
Might have also been the angle from which the photo was taken? Also, look at the contemporary drawings of Chapman. The lips do not look especially full on those either.
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Sunday, 01 September 2002 - 11:15 pm | |
| There is also the possibility that her illness could cause some swelling about the mouth and tongue, especially if dehydration was becoming a problem. I doubt she was getting enough to drink out walking the streets all evening. I've always been a bit mystified as to what Annie's illness truly was. It was stated she had a mortal illness but was it in the early stages or would she have been dead within weeks? I know this sounds horrid, but the thought of battling a terminal illness in 1880's Whitechapel without benefit of modern medicine...ugh, quick death almost seems preferable. I just hope the poor woman never saw it coming, had no time to be frightened. |
Author: Harry Mann
Monday, 02 September 2002 - 05:51 am | |
I believe all lotions that were for external use only would have carried a poison label.What must also be considered,is that most bottles or jars,after their initial use, would have been retained.Such items were rarely thrown away,and were used for other purposes.
Visits to chemists or herbalists,as opposed to attending hospitals,were common.These persons would dispense their own made up remedies,and a visit to them might well involve using previous hospital issued bottles.
Just one other observation.Among very poor people,it was not unusual to pass on unused medication from one person to another,if the malady was considered of the same nature.
Also bear in mind that adults of that time had a very good knowledge of the more common complaints.
Perhaps 80+per cent were diagnosed by family ,relatives,neighbours or the chemist or herbalist.Only if all these sources failed was a visit to the doctor or hospital considered.
Does anyone today ever consider using the various poultices that were once so common.Is a weekly dose of castor oil ever taken,I remember both.
They were common in Victorian days. |
Author: Caroline Morris
Monday, 02 September 2002 - 06:46 am | |
Hi Garry,
I take all your points on board, but I wasn't really suggesting Annie was an habitual brawler, or that she courted trouble. She ended up being kicked viciously in the chest by a woman due to jealousy, and it may not have been the first time she’d been the victim of similar violence. It’s the placid one, after all, who ends up with the bruises, and they don’t always ask for it! I was prescribed treatment specifically for bruising once, and it was described as 'The Lotion - for external use only’, which also made me wonder. (But let me reassure you that I am extremely placid, so I wouldn't like that lotion to be taken as evidence that I'm always brawling! My own bruising wasn't caused by a fight.  )
But I think Harry's excellent points show how we could speculate endlessly about the contents of the bottles and their uses.
Love,
Caz
PS Harry, I remember being given cod liver oil regularly as a child – I was the only one I knew who actually quite liked the taste! |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Monday, 02 September 2002 - 08:24 am | |
Whato Harry, how are you?
IODINE, that was my deadly enemy lurking behind cupboard doors if I had what was regarded as a bad cut, it was guaranteed to have me screaming the house down.
You talk of castor oil, mine was California Syrup of Figs,--- fix-her-up, thats what I thought the name was!! God, did I hate fixerup, Mom could get me to take the first teaspoon, but she had to bribe me to take the second.
All the Best Rick. |
Author: Garry Wroe
Monday, 02 September 2002 - 07:06 pm | |
Hi Caz.
Sorry that I misconstrued your earlier post. Your claimed pacivity has also been noted. Still, I'm not about to take any risks so am quitting while the going's good ...
Hi Harry.
I agree with Caz regarding the pertinence of your point about the utilitarian nature of medicine containers. This, I fear, is one mystery that is never going to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.
Warmest regards,
Garry Wroe. |
Author: Harry Mann
Tuesday, 03 September 2002 - 05:46 am | |
Warwick,
Cheers to you and your wife.At least this site has a way of making us relive long past events,of our own and others lives.Some of those concoctions were horendous,but our continued existance might be evidence of their recuperative powers.
Garry,
I would have no doubt that all of the Rippers victims would have had at least one visit to the London Hospital,and despite what may seem a hopeless task,you may yet unearth some evidence of this.It has made me consider facts that were long forgotten,and after so much time there must be many instances which may never be remembered.At least your contributions here may open up avenues not previous thought of,and who knows what evidence may surface as a result.
Caz
Syrup of Figs,Cod liver Oil,Castor Oil followed by a glass of 'Old Trousers'and you have a potion that guaranteed to tear your insides out.Why did Jack need a Knife?.
Regards,Harry. |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 03 September 2002 - 09:04 am | |
Harry,
I bet Jack thought poor Kate had tried one of those concoctions before she met up with him.
I'm a dog, no sympathy in me
Rick |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Tuesday, 03 September 2002 - 05:16 pm | |
Dear Rick,
EWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!
Sincerely,
Brenda |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Tuesday, 03 September 2002 - 06:24 pm | |
Hello Brenda
If you knew me you would know I didn't really mean it,
Best Wishes, Rick. |
Author: Brenda L. Conklin
Wednesday, 04 September 2002 - 09:46 pm | |
Rick,
IMHO, JTR deserved any "crap" that happened to come his way, at the very very least! Way to go, Kate! |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Thursday, 05 September 2002 - 09:03 am | |
My sentiment entirely Brenda, at least Kate's death wasn't that much of a walk-over for him,
Rick |
Author: David P. Smith
Monday, 16 September 2002 - 11:19 pm | |
Rings rings rings.
Didn't Tumblety's list of his final possessions list two rings? And weren't there two rings listed as missing from Annie Chapman's body? Were these earrings or some other type of rings? Looking carefully at the picture of Annie Chapman are these the same earrings she's wearing? |
