Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Monday, 22 January 2001 - 03:28 am |        |
second attempt at the pictures of polly.
rebecca
 |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Saturday, 27 January 2001 - 06:18 pm | |
no opinions on the polly pictures?
ok I've finally stop drawing her any way finial count on polly picture was about 20. yes i got a little obsessed.
never mind i have just finished drawing annie. you would think with a clearer photo she would be easier than polly. only managed about five and it wasn't until this last one that i actually got a nice expression on her face. annie's face seems to have a permanent angry expression when i draw her so a stern one is the best i can do.
i am now working on liz.
rebecca |
Author: Paul A. Smith
Saturday, 27 January 2001 - 10:40 pm | |
HI Rebecca
As before, very nice work. Many people, even some other
artists that I know do not like drawing the human face.
Even though there are known patterns and formulas
to follow, for BASIC proportion and symetry,
they do not like attempting the face.
I know why this is. That's the place that we look
to for our sense of recognition for a person, what
visually sets us apart from every one else. Even
with "identical" twins, there are small differences
in proportion, color and structure that set them apart.
Being able to "catch the likeness" is a true art.
It seems to have declined in favor recently. No big
thing, really. Portraiture comes in and out of vogue,
and has for thousands of years.
(Consider the bust of Nefertiti)
All that said, and through all these years, portraiture
is still one of the hardest skills to develop. It's
even been claimed that some people simply are "born"
with this ability, which is not an opinion I really share.
It can be developed. I've seen it happen in art students
that I've had the pleasure to work with.
I want you to take this in the best possible fashion,
the way that you are choosing to represent these women's
likenesses is minimal, and therefore
very hard to judge, or even say whether the likeness is there or not.
If you began to add more tonal
qualities to the skin, shadows and other visual characterstics that would
further emphisise the likeness,
I could make a more accurate assessment of your efforts.
As they are, they are really nicely done. But it strikes
me as a beginining point for further development.
Don't stop at just the line work . . . more visual information is needed.
I have taught art, and would not request that anyone
do anything that I wouldn't be willing to do myself, or
haven't already done. Take a look at the rendering
I attempted of Liz (You said you were wortking on her anyway . . .very cool!)
If you want, I'll send you , via private email, the beginning sketch I did for that.
It doesent look
much different than the efforts that you have posted.
DOn't take me wrong, they display wonderful ability for likeness.
All I'm saying is that as an artist,
it perhaps is time to push farther.
Only 20 drawings of Polly? Why so few?
(HA! I'm KIDDING YOU!) We artists do multiple versions
of everything we do . . I wouldn't exactly call it obsession. That word has SUCH baggage.
Keep up the great work!
Paul |
Author: Ashling
Tuesday, 30 January 2001 - 07:09 am | |
Hi all. Great suggestions, PAUL. I've taken art classes, but am not a visual artist by any stretch of the definition. My talent lies in story-telling. REBECCA, Polly was described by someone (can't recall who at the moment) as "bird-like, a little wren." IMHO, you've rendered Polly too fat. The police record describes her as 5' 2" and mentions that her face was bruised and discolored ... strangulation makes the face swell. In life, Polly's face would be slimmer than it looks in the picture taken after she died.
Ashling |
Author: Diana
Tuesday, 30 January 2001 - 08:29 pm | |
| I have always wondered why Chapman's death photo clearly shows a double chin. The doctors who examined her body described her as malnourished. When Jack severed her neck down to the spinal column is it possible that he severed some ligaments or something that would have held the skin and flesh in place and that double chin we see is really an illusion? I'm going way out on a limb here. My knowledge of anatomy wouldn't fill a thimble. |
Author: Alegria
Tuesday, 30 January 2001 - 09:08 pm | |
| Malnourished means something different than undernourished. Mal-means poor nutrition (eats bad food) and Under-means eats insufficient food. I can weigh 250 lbs and be malnourished if all I eat are pastries, breads and cakes. |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 31 January 2001 - 03:50 pm | |
Hi, Alegria and Diana:
The Merck Manual of Medical Information, Home Edition, 1997, pp. 706-9, defines manutrition as follows, which explains why an alcoholic woman such as Annie Chapman could have been described as malnourished even though she appears overweight:
"Malnutrition can result from either undernutrition or overnutrition. Both conditions are caused by an imbalance between the body's need for and the intake of essential nutrients. . . . Addiction to alcohol or drugs can disrupt a person's lifestyle to the point that adequate nourishment is neglected and the absorption and metabolism of nutrients are impaired. Alcoholism is the most common form of drug addiction, with serious effects on nutritional status."
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Shawn W. Marmash
Wednesday, 31 January 2001 - 06:56 pm | |
Paul,
your work is incredible.
It's brought a new perception to how I see both the victims as well as the crime scene.
As far as how a person can be malnourished yet still appear overweight, as a recovering alcoholic I learned some things the hard way.
When a person is not getting proper nutition,the body tends to go to the tissues in the extremities such as the arms and legs for reserves.
This causes them to be thin and spindley, while at the same time the lower abdomen becomes distended and bloated.
Also alcohol abuse can cause the face to become swollen many times.
A person who is fully dressed would appear to be heaver than they are.
Just some additional info to add to what Chris G. already supplied. |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Saturday, 03 February 2001 - 12:24 am | |
hi i'm back again this time with liz. i must be getting better at this.
paul your picture of liz really helped me to visulise what she may have looked like.
this is my version of liz.
please ignore the blob i had a little accident and now can't get rid of it.
catherine or is it kate is next.
rebecca |
Author: Paul A. Smith
Saturday, 03 February 2001 - 01:06 am | |
Hi All
Rebecca- Again, very nicely drawn. I still hold to the curiosity of what would happen if you developed
them more, but I must also qualify that with my own sense of caution: ergo, do not rush the artist. I was actually going to make that point
in my last post, but it fell out of my head!
You're doing great, Rebecca . . . with each ensuing effort I see improvement
in the stroke and line . . .you ARE getting
better at this! But I'm not surprised. Practice does that . . .
Incidently, Rebecca, I kind of LIKE that blob . . .
Ashling - Thank you kindly. Your observations have certainly
warranted attention . . .you may not be a visual artist, but you certainly have the eye for detail.
Which is critical if we're to get to the bottom of these crimes.
Shawn - Thanx for your kind comments . . and your
personal honesty as well. Letting on about being
in recovery can be a somewhat daunting thing . . I know, I've been
in recovery for over 13 years, clean and serene. (I plan on staying that way too!)
And you are perfectly correct about the physical and phsyiological aspects of alcoholism. And the info submitted by Christopher and Algeria is good to know as well.
But I do wonder . . .in the post mortems of these
women, it was stated, at least by Bagster Phillips, that there
was NO evidence of recent alcohol consumption in the stomach. Could this be because of the quick absorbtion of a liquid, rather than the slower digestive process involving solids? |
Author: Shawn W. Marmash
Saturday, 03 February 2001 - 05:39 am | |
Paul,
13 years is quite an accomplishment, next month I'll have two years of sobriety.
About your comment on the post mortem's.
Alcohol is metabolized very quickly, about an hour for every once consumed.
If there is food in the stomach that slows it down quite a bit.
However, partially digested food would have an alcohol smell,( I know because when I was a nurse, I assisted in several autopsies.)
There is little doubt that the victims of our man Jack were either alcoholics, or heavy drinkers.
The conditions in which the post mortem's were performed were less than ideal.
It is possible that any signs of alcohol were overlooked, also by the time the post mortem's had been done it is possible that the alcohol evaporated leaving no trace.
Shawn (AKA Darkman) |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Thursday, 08 February 2001 - 02:43 am | |
ok two pictures of catherine i think i'll go with the smiling one.
mary kelly is next.
grail finder you know that picture of yours of mary kelly. the one where you gave her a face is all right if i use that as a guide?
simon i also would to use the picture you have done previously on this board.
together with the Victorian cartoons and physical descriptions given i may get an accurate drawing then again may be not.
rebecca |
Author: Grailfinder
Saturday, 10 February 2001 - 04:57 pm | |
Hi Rebecca
Sure! feel free to use any of my post.
cheers. |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Saturday, 17 February 2001 - 05:34 pm | |
hi i finished mary well it's down to these two. i think i'll use the tidier hair style and the smiling face though.
thank you grailfinder.
this'll be my last input for a while because my sister who owns the equipment i am using needs it for a deadline. so see you in a few weeks.
rebecca |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Saturday, 17 February 2001 - 05:37 pm | |
alright so i botched it again.
2nd try
rebecca |
Author: Warwick Parminter
Saturday, 17 February 2001 - 08:02 pm | |
Rebecca,
your very talented, it's a pleasure to view your work, thankyou. I wouldn't know what you have planned in the future, whatever it is, best wishes.
Rick |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 03:20 pm | |
Maybe Mary?
Please find embedded a photo reconstruction of the face of Mary Jane Kelly. I'm certainly no artist, but with modern software it's possible to produce quite good results with a little effort, although maybe without much flair.
Taking the well known photograph from Miller's Court as source material I have attempted to retain as many of the original lines and dimensions of the face as possible. I also attempted to retain the skin shades and tones although this proved very problematic despite some assistance from the black and white image. Where damage was beyond use, I have attempted to repair the area concerned as accurately as possible, but this must by it's nature be subjective. The areas I am therefore least happy with are the mouth (despite bottom lip being found and surprisingly what appeared to be projecting tongue tip - strangulation?) and also the victim's left eye.
The one obvious problem is the hair colouring. It was quite impossible to tell from the photograph what this should be and there appeared to be blood discolouring it. Contemporary descriptions indicate anything from blonde to ginger (maybe even auburn)? Hopefully this accepted error does not spoil the image too much.
Finally as indicated earlier skin tone and blemishes caused by the repairs made Mary look older than she was therefore I have applied a grain to hide this which gives a less clear but hopefully better impression of how she may have looked.
I don't claim that this is an accurate reproduction of Mary Kelly, but I hope that those who knew her might at least recognise her from this. It is also a small thing but there is some pleasure in giving this lady back her image and offering her some dignity that JTR will not get when he is finally unmasked!
 |
Author: Adseph Joam Fetus-Jacunis
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 06:39 pm | |
Dear Kev,
This is an excellent recontruction of Mary Jane Kelly. It eerily looks very victorian, and definetly stands up for kelly's nick name "Black Mary," as she wore alot of black. I do not think her hair was black though? Was it? Anyhow her killer will most surely be unmasked if I have anything to do with it, you can count on that!
Yours Approvingly,
A. J. Fetus-Jacunis |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 07:23 pm | |
Dear A.J.
Many thanks for your kind words. Think I overdid the grain slightly however does add a certain Victorian sepia tint effect. Yes, as I mentioned the hair is a definite problem and overall I am not happy with this picture as yet so I may post an improved version, but it does take a while to do these so maybe not just yet.
Currently working on Catherine Eddowes who is proving just as troublesome to produce.
The 'Black Mary' nickname refers mainly to her temper. Apparently her beat was immediately outside the Ten Bells which I visited recently, getting some excellent interior photos. Whilst the windows were undoubtedly much smaller in 1888, I could almost imagine her lurking outside on the pavement. Apparently if her patch was invaded by competing women she was known to rip great handfuls of their hair out. Not a lady to cross I would guess.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 11:14 am | |
Dear Jacunis,
I see you have previous convictions for trafficking in embellishments. Could Jack have been performing plastic surgery on Mary's nose when his hand slipped?
Rosey :-) |
Author: david rhea
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 02:35 pm | |
| I thought it was said that MK was attractive.I realise that beauty is in the eye of the beholder , but this looks more like annie chapman+Liz Stride.Do you really find these features attractive? |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 04:08 pm | |
David
I believe that Mary was indeed attractive, but bear in mind that the image that I posted was initially the Millers Court photo - head section. You must therefore bear in mind that the damage was extensive and this can be little more than an impression.
I am however pleased that some of the original features came through very well. For example the strong chin. Whilst we have no life photos of Mary, if you look at Walter Sickert's 'Mrs Barrett' otherwise 'Blackmail' which is believed to depict Mary Kelly (ludicrous Ripper and Royal theories aside), you will indeed see just this feature.
There are in my opinion, attractive elements to this face. This will of course sound pretty lame, but I find that if you squint at the image you can get a better idea of how she might have looked. Yes it does sound lame!
As regards Annie Chapman and Liz Stride whilst Annie was not a well woman and clearly not looking too special, I think you do Liz Stride a grave diservice. She was clearly a fine looking woman. Don't forget that in death there was much swelling and distortion, Martha Tabram being probably the most extreme example.
Anyway if you think that the MK image is bad, you should see the halfway point between the original and that one. I will post that if you want to feel scared! Also coming up Catherine Eddowes.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 04:15 pm | |
Catherine Eddowes
Embedded here a reconstruction of Catherine Eddowes from the post mortem photograph. Whilst I don't think this does her any favours, particularly the mouth, I think that it is recognisable?
Regards
Kev
 |
Author: david rhea
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 04:31 pm | |
| i do like this one |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 04:51 pm | |
David
Do you mean that you think that this is a better effort or do you find her attractive?  |
Author: Adseph Joam Fetus-Jacunis
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 06:04 pm | |
Dear Rosey,
Little ol' me having trafficed in embellishments?
Oh know you must mean 'Jacunius', and the infamous Doctor Bond Report being a fake issue from last year! I am his Nemesis, back re-born and better than ever. Though I must admitt here I'am new to this discussion board (It's been awhile anyway), and while I'am thinking about it, that report was merely a test. I think I proved my point, while those hundreds talk about the diary being real or not (when it's obviously fake whoops, I mean not actually written by the Killer in question), while I tackled the possibilty of Dr. Bond's document presumed without a doubt to be real? mmmmm...interesting though who you could rely on, in contrast to those otherwise - how similar!! But this is the better and new improved Jacunis (I use my real whole pseud. this time), and glad to see ya still take'in notice Rosey.
By the way I didn't know 'plastic surgery' was a fashion of the Victorian age, especially amongst prostitutes! And if his hand did slip, it must of slipped a fair square mile over Whitechapel! lol
Don't mind me giving away his trade, but he WAS a doctor.
Yours Truly,
A. J. Fetus-Jacunis. |
Author: david rhea
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 06:35 pm | |
| I didn't mean to cast aspersion on your effort.It is amazing what you have done-I could never do it.I was just referring to the individual.Somwhere back in the archives there is a restoration of MK's face as she lay in the police photo.Whoever did it presented a beautiful face.Have you seen it? If not you should.As I said I find the ability to do that amazing and it certainly helps one's perspective on these victims. |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 07:11 pm | |
David
Just joking about! Thanks for your comments. Yes I did see the other Kelly image, but I'm not sure how this was achieved so I can't comment on the accuracy. What I did, was to take the original photograph, crop it to size, reorientate it then remove and fill the damaged areas. The outline of the face and hairline, plus the right eye are little altered. I think that proportions are just about right. In the case of Kelly we have to fill in the damaged areas oursleves which are definitely subjective. The other victims were less damaged, thus easier to do and consequentially much more accurate.
I think also you would have to bear in mind that tastes were different in those days and so were descriptions. Mary was described as being stout in some articles and some drawings show a plumpish face, but this didn't come out at all in the reconstruction and for example one drawing of Liz Stride showed a complete hag which clearly she wasn't.
Unless someone turns up a life photo of Mary, I doubt if we will ever have more than a vague idea of her looks, but I think it is clear that all of these women were 'attractive' in some way or other. Mary for her looks and to a lesser extent I think also Liz Stride and Catherine Eddowes (despite my rather grim effort). Annie Chapman was not well but was probably rather more refined than many women in her position and little Mary Nichols whilst clearly an alcoholic was also reported to be chirpy and up-beat. The fact that she could earn her doss money several times in a night shows that she had some pulling power.
As you said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and since we are not Victorian Working class people we can never really be sure exactly what they thought was attractive.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 05:51 pm | |
Mary Nicholls
 |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 05:54 pm | |
Annie Chapman
 |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 06:03 pm | |
Liz Stride
(OK I got a bit carried away here - must have another go, but she could get a job as a roadie on the next U2 Tour)
 |
Author: brad mcginnis
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 07:44 pm | |
| Geez! If they looked like that its a wonder someone didnt kill them years before. |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 08:04 pm | |
Guess I didn't do them any favours then Brad - lololol! Where we you in 1888? |
Author: brad mcginnis
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 12:59 am | |
| Kevin, I applaud your work. Guys like you, because you try, add much to the casebook. Im sorry if i seem critical. |
Author: brad mcginnis
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 12:59 am | |
| Kevin, I applaud your work. Guys like you, because you try, add much to the casebook. Im sorry if i seem critical. |
Author: Paul A. Smith
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 02:13 am | |
HI all
It's been a while since I've been able to post . .
on to too many other things, I guess. And then I started
getting emails about these reconstructions,
and I'd kind of like to join in on the fun.
But I can't seem to find any instructions
on how to place a pic on this site. Anyone
help me out with a clue or three on how to
get a jpg on here?
The reconstructions are great . . .digital art
programs are limitless in potential, and these
efforts are certainly prime examples of that!
Nicely done!
Talk to you later!
Paul Smith
http://www.usinternet.com/users/psmith/Index.htm |
Author: Paul A. Smith
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 02:25 am | |
Hi again!
OK . . .so in the interim time since my last
message I learned to read, and checked out the
examples of coding. DUH!
So. Here goes. I'm going to attempt to
post a reconstruction I did of Elizabeth Stride,
taken from here mortuary photo. I assumed many things
when I did this, and got some great responses
from this group. I' haave worked it
a little more, so let's see if time and additional
effort did the trick.
Again, feedback is certainly welcome!
Paul
http://www.usinternet.com/users/psmith/index.htm |
Author: Goryboy
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 07:03 am | |
Hi, All~
Great work by everyone. It's a little eerie, but then...I like all things eerie. Any photos of "ghosts" or phantasms photo'd in Whitechapel?
Thx,
Johnboy
|
Author: Goryboy
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 07:04 am | |
Kev --
The image of Polly Nichols is so lifelike it's scary. I'll be having nightmares of her, thanks to you.
Do you have any pics of the 10 Bells' interior you could send?
Thx,
John |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 08:06 am | |
Hi folks
Sorry about the Liz Stride, I really ran wild with those eyes. How was I susposed to know there were no urban goths in 1888?
Least Polly was a little better!
Anyway I must say I like Paul's Liz Stride! Much more like it.
Gory or is it John (more aliases than Mary Kelly) - yes I've got some interiors from the Ten Bells which I can send (need to clean them up a bit) but will need your addy as I haven't worked out how to extract it from the profile.
Cheers
Kev |
