Author: Stephen P. Ryder
Saturday, 14 November 1998 - 07:12 pm |        |
| Frances Coles |
Author: Gary Nargi
Wednesday, 13 January 1999 - 03:10 am | |
| For a short account of the Coles case and the story of Ernest Thompson,the officer who found her, see "40 Years of Scotland Yard" by Frederick Porter Wensley. You can also get a good portrait of Whitechapel and Sir Melville McNaghten. |
Author: Dave
Saturday, 30 January 1999 - 04:30 am | |
| I was wondering if anyone knows exactly where Frances Coles is buried. Thanks for the help. |
Author: Caroline
Monday, 01 February 1999 - 12:20 pm | |
| I was wondering where her 'Hawkins' alias comes from. Anyone with any info? Thanks. |
Author: s.
Friday, 12 November 1999 - 07:53 am | |
| i do not feel that coles was a ripper victim. too much time had passed between coles death and mary kelly.unless the ripper stopped killing for three yearsto completely baffle police. |
Author: Martina Coles
Wednesday, 22 December 1999 - 11:46 am | |
Greetings all,
My family is related to Frances' family somehow (I don't know exactly how.) But my grandfather kept a scrapbook of clippings on the Whitechapel murders (nothing new or interesting, folks) and he always counted Frances among them. There have been killers who stopped to avoid detection, or for some other reason. ("Il Mostro," from Italy, stopped for four years before he killed again.) And as the wounds were very similar and Frances actually died under PC Thompson's watch her murderer could have been disturbed, accounting for the lack of mutilation. Just food for thought . . . Martina |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 22 December 1999 - 10:48 pm | |
Very 'nise' to hear from you Martina, even though the scrapbook may contain 'nothing new or interesting' if it contains contemporary clipping of the murders (assuming you mean news clippings, not body parts :-)) then it still may be of interest to some.
I suppose there must be many decendents of the Whitechapel victims, even though Frances Coles was a victim of someone, it isnt generally assumed she was a victim of Jack the Ripper.
Her assault was similar to that of Alice McKenzie & Liz Stride in that it was an apparent attack with a knife, a quick slash to the throat, which is somewhat different to how Jack is thought to have performed.
Seasons greeting to you & yours.....
Regards, Jon |
Author: NickDanger
Wednesday, 22 December 1999 - 11:24 pm | |
Hi Martina,
Thank you for your interesting post. It's nice
to hear from a descendent with an interest in the case. Whether or not Francis Coles was a victim of the person responsible for killing the canonical five, her killing is considered part of the 'Whitechapel Murders' and is certainly worth studying. The aspect of her murder that has always stayed with me is the fact that while PC Thompson was required to stay with the body, he reported that she opened her eyes. That certainly had to be an unnerving experience! Nice to have you with us, there is always room for another interested person to help with the hunt.
Best wishes for the holidays,
Nick Danger |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Thursday, 23 December 1999 - 12:06 pm | |
Hi, Nick:
Begg et al.'s "The Jack the Ripper A to Z" states that Frances Cole was still alive when P.C. Thompson arrived on the scene, and her eyes were open. Have you read somewhere that her eyes opened after she died?
Martina, please excuse me for wanting to clear up this point. I mean no disrespect and am intrigued that you believe you are a relative of victim Frances Coles. In regard to the book of clippings on the Whitechapel murders that you mentioned, a number of us are looking for contemporary news accounts of the murders and it is just possible that some of the accounts in the scrapbook may be of newspaper articles that researchers have not so far found. Although news stories should be used with caution, they do offer some important details on the murders for researchers, particularly since many of the police files on the murders are now missing.
Chris George |
Author: anon
Thursday, 23 December 1999 - 03:53 pm | |
| Pc Thompson asserted "...that when he first saw the deceased there was a movement of one of the eyelids. Be that as it may when the body was found it was quite warm and bleeding." (T. Arnold, Superintendent). |
Author: Christopher-Michael
Thursday, 23 December 1999 - 09:08 pm | |
Perhaps Nick is remembering the following passage from p. 352 of paperback Sugden:
"And, as Thompson stood horrified, he saw her open and shut one eye."
Martina, I must agree with Chris; if your grandfather's scrapbook still survives, it is an artefact that any researcher (myself included) would like to see, for the reasons mentioned. Do let us know if you still have it.
And welcome to the Casebook.
Regards,
Christopher-Michael |
Author: NickDanger
Thursday, 23 December 1999 - 11:01 pm | |
Hi Folks,
Yes indeed CMD, I was referring the the Sugden
reference about PC Thompson and Francis Coles.
Chris and Anon - Forgive me for not checking the other sources. That quote in Sugden gave me the
chills when I first read it, and still does. I hope that Martina still has her grandfather's scrapbook and that it may turn out to be a valuable new source of information. Nevertheless, I think it's great to hear from a descendent of a victim of the Whitechapel murders.
Best regards,
Nick |
Author: Martina Coles
Friday, 24 December 1999 - 04:46 pm | |
| I will do some looking as soon as I get the chance. My family lives in Cardiff, and my grandfather lived down in Dover (he passed away about a year ago, but my grandmother is still there). So, I don't get the chance to see them, and my grandmother can't really do the lifting necessary (my grandfather saved EVERYTHING, their flat is a paper mountain). But as soon as I get to Dover I'll let all of you know. =) -Martina |
Author: NickDanger
Friday, 24 December 1999 - 10:02 pm | |
Hi Martina,
Best of luck in tracking down your grandfather's scrapbook! In the meantine, have a great Christmas and a great new year!
Best wishes,
Nick |
Author: Simon Owen
Thursday, 08 June 2000 - 04:10 pm | |
| I have read somewhere that Frances Coles was known by the nickname ' Carrotty Nell ' , does anyone know where the reference to this nickname appears first ? Thanks for any help forthcoming. |
Author: Jill De Schrijver
Friday, 23 June 2000 - 07:05 am | |
Frances Coles' Wound Drawing:
3 times the knife passed the throat according to Philips: from left to right, from right to left and from left to right again.
It was believed that the killer took hold of her chin with his left hand -> I therefor make the assumption that there were some indicative bruisings.
She had a few wunds at the back of her head, which I have not drawn (this would be at the back top, where the skull rounds much)
 |
Author: The Viper
Thursday, 08 March 2001 - 02:56 am | |
Can anybody confirm the dates on which the Coles inquest was held please?
Was it 14th, 17th, 20th, 23rd and 27th February 1891?
Or as stated in the A-Z?
Or something different again?
Any help appreciated.
Regards, V. |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 08 March 2001 - 11:54 pm | |
Welcome back, Viper. Too lazy (and two large dry martinis down at midnight) to check myself. But I suspect you'll find dates in Evans and Skinner which Keith and I at least will accept as a corrective if they differ from those given in A-Z.
Martin F |
Author: The Viper
Friday, 09 March 2001 - 04:00 am | |
Thanks, Martin. It's just a fleeting visit unfortunately, connected with some research for the Casebook site. Writing on the message boards is very time consuming and when there is a lot of other work on it has to go on the back burner for a while.
One correspondent was kind enough to answer this privately by pointing to Sugden p526 in which he lists the issues of the daily newspapers used as source material. The paper dates were 16th, 18th, 21th, 24th and 28th February. Subtracting one working day (i.e. allowing for Sundays) we get 14th, 17th, 20th, 23rd and 27th for the inquest.
Regards, V. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Thursday, 05 July 2001 - 05:13 pm | |
| In the statement that Swanson took from Sadler [MEPO 3/140, ff. 97-108; Evans & Skinner, pg 554] Sadler states that he was drinking gin at 'Williams Brothers at the corner of Gouldston Street'. Is this, in fact, our old friend Goulston Street? Anyone know the exact whereabouts of Williams Brothers & if it was on the corner of Wentworth or Aldgate? It's interesting that Sadler had connections to Bucks Row, etc. Maybe he's worth another look? Thanks, RP |
Author: Arfa Kidney
Thursday, 05 July 2001 - 07:16 pm | |
Hello everyone,
Thomas Sadler is the only susspect,closely associated with one of the murdered Whitechapel prostitutes,to be found with blood on him,shortly after the discovery of the body.
I think I am right in stating that he disappeared without trace sometime after being found not guilty of Carroty Nell's murder.
Definately worth a closer look!
Regards,
Mick Lyden |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Friday, 06 July 2001 - 09:30 am | |
| I was under the same impression that Sadler jumped back on ship after being found not guilty of Coles' death, but I see from a series of remarkable documents in Evans & Skinner's book that he was, in fact, alive and well and cursing his filthy mouth off in Streatham. [And watched closely by the police, I might add. It was a strange set-up with Sadler's wife & and an old Navy pensioner keeping the police informed.] Really, though, I'm surprised that Sadler isn't a more popular suspect. The reason Coles is ignored as a Ripper victim is that so much time had passed since the earlier killings, but it's clear from the Macnaghten Memo that Sir M suspected him of not only killing Coles, but Alice MacKenzie as well. He makes a point of mentioning that Sadler was in Whitechapel the night of MacKenzie's murder [17 July 1889---8 months after Kelly] and that he sailed two days later. On Sadler's return [though for all I know, he may have been back in the mean-time], he evidently went straight back to drinking in the heart of Whitechapel. A couple of days later gets implicated in Coles murder. Sadler seems to have had connections with Bucks Row and had once threatened his wife with a "dagger shaped knife". Considering that in most ways MacKenzie looks like a Ripper victim --especially if one considers the possibility that the murderer was disturbed before more extensive wounds were committed-- it's easy to see why Bond suspected it was one of the series. All in all, Sadler seems like a better suspect than many of the popular ones--- such as, say, George Chapman. |
Author: The Viper
Friday, 06 July 2001 - 06:12 pm | |
The only pub, beer shop or winebar I can find in the area at the time is the one that still exists today as Williams' Tavern. In those days it was James S. Williams & Sons, of 14 Artillery Lane. Not on Goulston Street, but no more than five minutes walk away.
Regards, V. |
Author: R.J. Palmer
Saturday, 07 July 2001 - 10:44 am | |
| Viper--thanks. Maybe another tavern where Jack swilled... RP |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Thursday, 17 January 2002 - 04:56 pm | |
Does anyone have any information on what became of Tom Sadler after the inquest cleared him of Coles' murder? I have noticed that a "Thomas Sadler" was hanged for murder at Newgate prison on August 18, 1891. Could this possibly be the same man?
AAA88 |
Author: The Viper
Friday, 18 January 2002 - 11:15 am | |
Jesse,
There is something about this on p176 of Evans & Skinner's JTR - Letters From Hell.
Apparently, Joseph Hall Richardson, a contemporary journalist on the Daily Telegraph, commented on the Coles murder in his book From the City to Fleet Street, published in 1927. He wrote that soon after the case against Sadler was dropped, the Star newspaper assisted him in winning damages. Then, "Next day he sailed for the Spanish Main and never has been heard of since." I don't know anything of Richardson's reputation or how reliable he was.
If you want to persue this from another angle, you could check the newspapers for criminal trials held in the summer of 1891. Justice tended to be swift in those days, so examining issues of The Times or similar, between June and early August, might yield up details of the crime committed by the Thomas Sadler you mention. However, my gut reaction is that had these Sadlers been one and the same person, the press would have reported it gleefully then and some modern researcher would have spotted it before now. Good luck with the investigation though!
Regards, V. |
Author: Christopher T George
Friday, 18 January 2002 - 12:46 pm | |
Hi, Jesse and Viper:
Justice is swift! So are today's information seach engines, and I came up with the following using Google.
Sadler, Thomas
A labourer convicted at Essex Summer Assizes for the murder of William Wass at Colchester. Sadler persuaded Mrs Wass to leave her husband and move in with him. During a dispute over the custody of her children. Sadler stabbed Wass behind the ear with a penknife, killing him instantly. He remained very calm after sentencing until his last interview with his father and sister, after which he became exceedingly distressed. He was hanged by James Berry on a permanent gallows erected inside Springfield Gaol on the 18th August 1891 in Chelmsford.
From Murder Cases on Murder - The Ultimate Crime
Jesse, I hope this helps! Of course, the Thomas Sadler who was accused of murdering Frances Coles was definitely described as being a sailor, so the laborer named Thomas Sadler, hanged by James Berry on 18 August 1891, does not appear to have been the same man!
All the best
Chris George |
Author: Jesse Flowers
Friday, 18 January 2002 - 11:43 pm | |
Chris and Viper-
Thanks for the help. You're right; it does appear that we have two different Tom Sadlers here. Ah well...no stone unturned, and all that...
Thanks again
AAA88 |
Author: Christopher T George
Saturday, 19 January 2002 - 08:32 am | |
Hi Jesse et al:
Jesse, I am glad the information helped. As you say, leave no stone unturned!
Jeff Bloomfield kindly pointed out that there are some errors on the murder site where I found the information on the Thomas Sadler hanged in 1891. Presumably the information given on Sadler is correct but Jeff noticed several errors among the photographs. For example, the photograph for Clyde Barrow is not correct, and the one listed for John George Haigh is the same as the one for Donald Hume. The site therefore should probably be used with care.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Goryboy
Wednesday, 20 February 2002 - 06:22 pm | |
Hi, all:
I understood that there were no mutilations to Frances Coles -- only the throat slit. Yet, Rumbelow in "The Complete Casebook," pg. 29, states: "It [sic, her old hat] was still hanging there when her body was found later that night with her throat cut and the stomach disemboweled."
Has he since corrected this? I have the 1988 version. |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 21 February 2002 - 03:58 am | |
Hi, Goryboy:
I believe you have the last edition, albeit I have the 1990 Berkely paperback edition which contains the same quote on page 32. This appears to be a definite error. As Sugden states (p. 352), in the case of Frances Coles' murder "there were no abdominal mutilations." Rumbelow also appears to be in error in spelling the name of the sailor suspected in her murder as "Thomas Saddler." Sugden, I believe, gives the man's correctly as "Sadler." Don's book is still one of the better books on the Whitechapel murders even with these mistakes. As an author myself (although not yet of a Ripper book), I can say that rare is the book without some type of factual error or typos of one kind or another.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Goryboy
Thursday, 21 February 2002 - 07:19 pm | |
Hi, Chris:
Thanks for verifying this for me, and for the update. I know exactly what you mean about factual errors, typos, etc., making their way into print. Still, it seems a serious error in such a landmark work.
I've read Don's book several times (it's what got me started on this rather curious and macabre hobby) and only discovered this gaffe t'other night.
All best,
John |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Monday, 25 February 2002 - 06:14 pm | |
Hi Folks
Since we're on the subject of Francis Coles and following an interesting Saturday afternoon spent in the East End, thought you might like a photo of the murder site. It's a bit blurry as I only had a pocket digicamera - sorry. I believe the spot is under the third light in. Very unnerving feel to this place (much like Durward St).
Kev
 |
Author: Goryboy
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 10:07 am | |
Dear Kev:
GREAT pic! Many thanks for posting it. This is Swallow Gardens, correct? Was it laid out much the same in 1888 as it is today, or has it changed significantly?
Any other photos you have of the murders sites, please do post -- or email to me! I'm at:
goryboy@indy.rr.com
Thx, Kev! Here's one of me own, taken in '95, oi fink. Snapped this while following a young lady into Mitre Square.... (heh heh hehhh)
 |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 10:53 am | |
Hi, Kev and Goryboy:
Great photographs, both of you! Many thanks! Kev, the blurriness of your picture adds to the spookiness of the photograph of the Frances Coles murder scene! Great shot! Thanks again to both of you for your contributions.
All the best
Chris |
Author: Peter Wood
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 02:12 pm | |
Loved the photographs guys! How about getting a 'victim' to play the part of Coles or Eddowes next time?
Peter. |
Author: Goryboy
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 05:15 pm | |
Ere's the best oi've got, snapped at Madame Toussade's. She's got a lovely mock up of Whitechapel in 'er basement, she 'as.
See the next post for the pic. Oi fink it's s'posed to be Katy Eddowes:
(Warning: not for the bloody squeamish...)
|
Author: Goryboy
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 05:20 pm | |
From Madame T's:
 |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 05:49 pm | |
Hi Goryboy, Chris, Peter
On the subject of Swallow Gardens this hasn't really changed since 1891. Obvously the wire fences and paving slabs are newer and I suspect the walls in the centre have been replaced at some stage, but the description from the A-Z indicates that 'Frances Coles was killed in the darkest part of the alley, at the centre of the arch' and 'In 1888, (sic)though (as today) a wall divided the alley from an unused half of the railway arch'. I'd say this place was pretty much the same as it was at the time of the murder. It is very very creepy!
Incidentally it is easy to miss this location, as the entrance from Chamber Street is very inconspicuous. There is a half decent pub (well the Guinness was OK) on the Royal Mint Street side. I include a photo looking out from the centre of the arch towards Royal Mint Street below.
Goryboy - as regards your photo, is this really in Mitre Square? I've been to Mitre Square a number of times but I've never seen this alleyway.
I did some years ago obtain a leaflet on Ripper Walks which featured a photo of an alley just like yours (minus the young lady - you fiend) and would be keen to locate as it looks very atmospheric.
When I can get to the East End (which isn't that often), I take photos of old buildings from the period, whether Ripper related or not simply to preserve some of the atmposphere of the area. Things keep vanishing all the time unfortunately.
Regards
Kev
 |
Author: Goryboy
Tuesday, 26 February 2002 - 07:26 pm | |
Hi, Kev:
Nope -- you're quite right, that was a covered alley just off Duke St., before you reach Mitre. Sorry about the mistake.
The attached is of Mitre, looking south. Eddowes was found just to the left of frame, on the pavement.
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