|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Victim's children
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
Victim's children
Author: Alexandria Calet
Thursday, 26 April 2001 - 10:28 am |        | | I gave a talk about JTR recently to a group of family historians and was asked about the victims children, where they were at the time of the murders and what happened to them subsequently. I had to confess I did not know. Those women who were living in doss houses at the time presumably could not have their children with them. Has anyone done any work on the whereabouts of the Ripper victims children? |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 26 April 2001 - 11:25 am | | Hi Alexandria -
Paul Begg has done sterling work on the victims, and I'm sure he will remember, as I cannot, the name of the man whose superb articles in 'True Detective' or some such journal make him, I think, supreme among Ripper victimologists. An appeal through Ripperologist (who certainly should have him on their subscribers' list) might bring him forward if he is willing to corespond with you.
We certainly do know a fair bit about their various children. At the risk of seeming repetitive and blowing a trumpet of which I own one-third, I suggest that the A-Z entries on the victims will give you a good start.
All the best,
Martin F |
Author: Christopher T George
Thursday, 26 April 2001 - 11:36 am | | Hi, Alexandria:
In The Jack the Ripper Whitechapel Murders by Kevin O'Donnell and Andy & Sue Parlour (Ten Bells Publishing, 1997, 248 pp., illus., ISBN 0 9531269 00), the authors have some discussion of the families of the victims. Andy Parlour is a distant relative of the first canonical victim, Mary Ann ("Polly") Nichols.
I understand that R. Michael Gordon, author of the recent book Alias Jack the Ripper: Beyond the Usual Whitechapel Suspects (McFarland Publishers, 2001, 363 pp., ISBN 0-7864-0898-7), makes the claim that his suspect, George Chapman (Severin Klosowski), lived in 1893-1894 with a woman named Annie Chapman who she was the daughter of the woman of the same name who was the Ripper's second canonical victim. While it is true that the suspect lived with a woman of that name, I do not believe anyone else has connected her to the Ripper victim.
I should explain that I have read Gordon's plot outline but not his book. I previously posted on the George Chapman board: "Annie and John Chapman's second daughter was Annie Georgina, born in 1873 (Sugden, p. 77). . . . I know no further information on Gordon's source for his claim other than what is in the plot outline for his book. We might note that this second daughter of victim Annie Chapman would have been aged twenty in 1893 when Gordon asserts that Severin Klosowski (George Chapman) lived with her. According to Sugden (p. 77), the daughter Annie Georgina was said in 1888 to be travelling with a performing troup or circus in France."
I hope this has helped. Good luck in your enquiries and if you find out anything more about the victims' children, please let us know.
Best regards
Chris George |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Thursday, 26 April 2001 - 03:39 pm | | Alexandria -
Further to what Martin and Chris have suggested, I might also mention Neal Shelden's "Jack the Ripper and His Victims" (ISBN 0-9537691-0-0), which goes into some detail about the children of Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman and Catherine Eddowes, though not, unfortunately, down to the present day. It is very possible that some descendants of the victims are unaware of their lineage; it is also possible (as has been hinted here from time to time) that many families are aware of their ghoulish past and have no wish to reveal it, which may explain why living descendants of the Ripper's victims seem so difficult to locate.
I believe Mr Shelden may also be the gentleman to whom Martin refers. Should you wish a copy of his book (which I recommend), he can be written to at 5 Scotney Walk, Hornchurch, Essex RM12 6TL, England, The United Kingdom.
All the best,
Christopher-Michael |
Author: Martin Fido
Thursday, 26 April 2001 - 05:25 pm | | Hi C-M G
Yes, Neal Shelden is the man. I see we give him extremely high praise in A-Z. What a dreadful sink my once-good memory has become!
All the best,
Martin |
Author: Paul Begg
Friday, 27 April 2001 - 05:00 am | | Hi all
Sorry, I missed this thread and I am grateful that the ever eagle-eyed and hugely knowledgeable editor of the must-have Ripper Notes (if you don't have a subscription, get one - now! Well, after you've got one to Ripperologist) for stepping in with the name and publication details of Mr Shelden's exemplary work on the background to the victims. A fine volume. Thanks to to Martin, of course, who is living testimony to the adage that a good memory and keeping one's hair don't go together. |
Author: Martin Fido
Friday, 27 April 2001 - 05:36 am | | Ah, but wait till you see what I'm about to do to a 'muttonhead' who has posted in another place, Paul....
Martin |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Friday, 27 April 2001 - 01:45 pm | | Christopher-George,
R. Michael Gordon's published book, Alias Jack the Ripper, does indeed mention a possible link between Annie Chapman, Klosowski's paramour, and Annie Georgina Chapman, daughter of Ripper victim Annie Chapman, but no evidence is given for this connection. The "set-up" for this possibility has R. Michael wondering whether the Ripper, Klosowski, had attended the funeral of Annie Chapman and if he had, he might have met Annie Georgina, if indeed she had attended and was not away in France. The salient paragraph, however, is as follows:
"It would be at Haddin's that Severin would meet a young woman named Chapman. It is entirely possible that this woman was the daughter of Ripper victim Annie Chapman – Annie Georgina Chapman. If true, Klosowski may have been playing a dangerous egotistical game with this direct link to his Ripper past. And, it would be well beyond simple coincidence with the Ripper murders. It is an open risk the ripper would have delighted in." Alias JtR, page 248.
Annie Chapman, Klosowski's paramour, met Klosowski towards the end of 1893 and went to live with him in November of that year. She left him a year later in November or December of 1894, at which time she was pregnant by him. Two or three months later, in January or February 1895, Annie went to see Klosowski in order to tell him of her pregnancy and to seek help in the form of money and a letter of reference for employment. Klosowski gave neither. The last time that Annie Chapman had any dealings with Klosowski was in February or March 1895 when he came to visit her at Albert road, Tottenham. In 1902, when the story of "the Borough Poisoner" broke to the public, it was Annie's sister who told her the news and who read the accounts to her. By the time of Klosowski's trial, in March 1903, Annie was living with friends.
Annie Georgina Chapman, the daughter of Ripper victim Annie Chapman, was married to Edward William Pryke on 10 February 1895 at St Saviours Church, Croydon. It is difficult to see her as the pregnant and alone woman, two months out of her relationship with Klosowski, who was begging Klosowski for help and support at exactly the same time. Annie Georgina did, of course, have an older sister, Emily Ruth Chapman born on 25 June 1870, who may have told her of the arrest of Klosowski and read to her the reports, had she been alive in 1902. Emily Ruth had in fact died of meningitis on 21 November 1882, age 12 years. As far as I know, Annie Georgina Pryke, nee Chapman, lived out her long life with her husband and died in 1958 at the age of 85.
Wolf. |
Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Friday, 27 April 2001 - 04:33 pm | | Thank you for that fascinating digression on Annie Georgina Chapman, Wolf; sterling writing, as always. I must say - since we're on the subject - that while I am grateful for the research Mr Gordon has done on Klosowski, his book relies far too much on supposition and in phrasing questions in a very leading, Erich von Danieken way which takes advantage of those without a thorough background in Ripper studies to seriously bolster the case against him. As well, in several spots one can't help the unsettling feeling that Gordon is making things up, but this is not the particular forum to discuss that.
And it's good to know that the gallant, pepperoni-pizza-eating editor of "Ripperologist" is just as quick with a compliment as with sharing his knowledge. Really, if you don't subscribe to his magazine, you should hold your head in shame. Go right now and get a copy. After subscribing to "Ripper Notes" first, of course!
After you, Alphonse. . . |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Saturday, 28 April 2001 - 01:02 am | | Can anybody tell me a bit about Mary Kelly's
family background? Did she have any sisters or
siblings? |
Author: Mark List
Saturday, 28 April 2001 - 01:41 am | | Jeff,
here's some information on Nary Kelly:
History: (this is from the Casebook archives.)
Almost everything that is known about Mary Jane Kelly comes from Joseph Barnett, who lived with her just prior to the murder. He, of course, had all this information from Kelly herself. Some is conflicting and it may be suspected that some, or perhaps much of it, is embellished.
She was born in Limerick, Ireland but we do not know if that refers to the county or the town. As a young child she moved with her family to Wales.
Her father was John Kelly who worked in an iron works in either Carnarvonshire or Carmarthenshire. Mary Jane claims to have 6 or 7 brothers and one sister. She says that one brother, Henry, whose nickname is Johnto is a member of the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards. As a member of this battalion he would have been stationed in Dublin, Ireland. She also claims to Lizzie Albrook that she had a relative on the London stage.
John McCarthy, landlord at Miller's Court, states that she received a letter from her mother in Ireland. Barnett says that she never corresponded with her family. |
Author: Mark List
Saturday, 28 April 2001 - 01:42 am | | Sorry, that's MARY Kelly, not Nary.
Cheers,
Mark |
Author: Jeff Bloomfield
Saturday, 28 April 2001 - 01:59 am | | Dear Mark,
Thanks for the information. I would love to know
what Mary's solitary sister's name was. Or if
she had a close relationship to a female cousin.
Jeff |
Author: MaryLynn McCloskey
Friday, 26 October 2001 - 11:43 am | | | Can anyone tell me about the family of Emma Smith? I had distant ancestors in the area of the murders during that period. I know there were over 850 Emma Smiths in the area, so it's a long shot that there is a connection. |
|
|
|
|
