Author: Cliff Jennings
Wednesday, 20 January 1999 - 09:13 am |        |
I'm a bit confused!!!
Having just got into this Jack the Ripper thing and being lucky enough to work within 15 mins. of Spitalfields I am currently going around the sites.
However, the map in the CASEBOOK site shows pictures of Millers court and the car park that now occupies the space. The caption says that Dorset St. is now White's Row. Well it's not! Whites Row is there these days but I have an Ordnance survey map from 1872 that shows White's Row and Dorset street. I've also read that Dorset st. is now the parking spaces for the warehouse that is on the site (as opposed to the multi-storey car park). All this would mean that the actual site of 13 Miller's court is actually some yards INTO the warehouse and not where the broken kerb stone is in the picture. Unless of course the parking area is much wider than the original Dorset St. Can anyone enlighten? |
Author: Bob_c
Wednesday, 20 January 1999 - 10:28 am | |
Hi Cliff,
Welcome to the board.
I can't help with your question, living as I do now in Germany, but I like your work. I'd like to keep contact to you because it would be very useful to know someone living, or at least working, in the area.
I lived in London until 1973 and know, or rather knew, the place well, including Whitechapael, Aldgate area etc of the nineteen-sixties and -seventies. I'd like copies of old maps etc. if you would like to let me know what you have and if that is possible.
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: A.M.P.
Wednesday, 20 January 1999 - 07:45 pm | |
Hi, Cliff
You are correct in saying that the caption to the Casebook photograph is incorrect. White's Row is where it always has been. Dorset Street was renamed to Duval Street in 1905. Following redevelopment of the market area in the 1960s the thoroughfare lost its name entirely. The exit directly north of White's Row along Commercial Street is where Dorset/Duval Street was located.
The car park you mention was on the opposite side to Miller's Court. On the warehouse side, as far as I can ascertain, there is no visible mark, such as the iron steps or the line of the kerbstones which marks the precise spot where the entrance to Miller's Court stood. |
Author: adam wood
Thursday, 21 January 1999 - 08:26 am | |
Hi all
The following messages were posted on "Murder Sites - are they haunted?" board a couple of weeks ago...
---------------------------------------------
By adam wood on Friday, January 15,
The "unnamed private road" is in fact a service road for the adjacent Fruit Exchange. It runs between the Exchange and White's Row Car Park. The road is now approximately half it's previous width.
There is a steel staircase leading to one of the loading bays which John Steadman identified as standing on the spot of Mary Kelly's bed. Ripper walks have always taken in this road, but in the past month chained gates have appeared at both ends of the road - whether to keep them out I can't say!
White's Row, parallel on the other side of the car park, is indeed still extant.
---------------------------------------------
By John Malcolm on Friday, January 15,
Hello Adam, that's great info on the location of Mary Kelly's bed. To stand on that spot would probably be the ultimate unnerving experience for those addicted to this piece of history like myself. Standing at the site of her grave was hard enough to handle...
To Johnno,you might find this bit from The JTR A-Z intesesting (it appears in the 1994 version, but was ommitted from the 1996 printing):
DORSET STREET Mary Jane Kelly's murder site. An infamous road in Spitalfields running east-west between Commercial Street and Crispin Street.
At the Commercial Street end it faced Christ Church burial ground; at the Crispin Street end, the Providence Row Night Refuge and Convent. Laid out in the 1670's and at one time known as Datchett Street,...On the north side of the street in 1888, about a third of the way along from Commercial Street, a narrow brick archway led into Miller's Court. Mary Kelly's room was the ground-floor back room of 26 Dorset Street, partitioned off from the remainder of the house, and entered by a door in Miller's Court immediately on the right as the pedestrian came out from under the arch...In 1904 it was renamed Duval Street. The northern side, including Miller's Court, was demolished in extensions to Spitalfields Market in 1929. The southern side was replaced with a multi-storey car park in the the 1960's, and today the street is an unnamed private road.
------------------------------
I'd like to add that John Steadman's research for the site of 13 Millers Court was published in Ripperologist a couple of years ago. Copies of this may be available - contact paul.daniel@virgin.net for availability and cost.
Adam |
Author: Cliff Jennings
Monday, 25 January 1999 - 10:33 am | |
To Bob C and any others interested in old maps. I got my old map of the area from a company called 'Rallymaps of West Wellow'. I found them via the internet on
http://www.rallymap.demon.co.uk/god020.htm
this address takes you to their listing of available maps with links to other pages where you can order them. I found the service to be very good and received my order in about 2 days.
Being boring and going back to my original question re: site of 13 Miller's court. I did read the bit about the iron staircase to the loading bay but if the wall of the warehouse is on the line of the old wall with the entrance to Miller's court then the position of the bed must be some yards back from the wall. Even more so if the road is now half the width of the original Dorset st. Perhaps the iron staircase mentioned is INSIDE the warehouse. I would imagine that if the Miller's crt. side was knocked down first (it was in 1926) then that is the side where the width of the road was lost (does anyone know for sure?). This would mean that the line of the current wall is in fact some way in front of the old wall and entrance thus making the bed even further back into the warehouse. I think an old surveyor's map is needed here! Perhaps the reasoning behing why it is thought that the staircase is the right spot would be interesting. |
Author: Bob_c
Monday, 25 January 1999 - 10:57 am | |
Hi Cliff,
Thanks for the tip.
Regards
Bob |
Author: adam wood
Monday, 25 January 1999 - 11:05 am | |
Hi Cliff
I understand your frustration about exact locations etc but I must restate my point that John Steadman defined the position of Kelly's bed in Ripperologist. He is, I believe, a surveyor or something along those lines, and compared today's Spitalfields with that of the old Goad Insurance maps from 1888 to come up with the actual positioning.
Do you have a fax number? If so, I'll send you the article.
Regards, Adam |
Author: Cliff Jennings
Monday, 25 January 1999 - 11:10 am | |
To Adam Wood
Fax number is 0171-216 7560.
Look forward to reading it. Thanks. |
Author: Cliff Jennings
Thursday, 28 January 1999 - 06:52 am | |
To Adam Wood
Many thanks for the article. It is very interesting and saves me doing it all over again!
It would be very useful if it was accessible via the net. Also, what about all the old Ripperologist mags. Wonder whether whoever publishes them would allow them to be accessed.
Regarding the old maps scene (this to everyone)I work next to the Guildhall library and have never thought to go in there until yersterday! They, as you probably know, have all the old maps including the ones I paid good money for the other week. You can get photo copies of the areas you want for about 20p. |
Author: adam wood
Thursday, 28 January 1999 - 10:31 am | |
Thanks Cliff - glad you found the research worthwhile.
Regarding Ripperologist magazine, or new subscriptions to it, being on the Committee of the Cloak and Dagger Club which publishes it I can only say that you need to join the Club in order to receive back issues.
Shameless plug - you need to contact Coral Kelly at coralkelly@usa.net or Tel 0171 677 0337.
Adam |
Author: Steve
Sunday, 23 May 1999 - 12:11 pm | |
Hi, from a first-timer to the site.
I'm very confused about the layout of Millers Court. In Martin Fido's book we are told the murder room is the back room of 26 Dorset Street but his map shows the room to be actually on Dorset street and not at the other end? What street did Kelly's room look out onto, maybe that would help me. |
Author: Jon Smyth
Sunday, 23 May 1999 - 10:01 pm | |
Steve
Are you refering to page 86 (hardback)?
The 1 in the diagram is the murder room but, the room is shown oblong and fronting onto Dorset St. This room had a partition horizontaly across, so now you can imagine two equal sized square's (for convenience sake).
No.26 did refer to the whole 'house' but because of the partition it now only refers to the front portion, the rear 'new' room (with separate entrance at side) is called No.13 Millers Court.
Hope thats clear :-)
Regards, Jon |
Author: Brian Roberts
Tuesday, 05 October 1999 - 09:21 pm | |
Hi, can I ask some very trivial questions about Millers Court.
Firstly, In Bruce Paley's book "JTR - The Simple Truth" he quotes from a description of Mary's room given in a newspaper of the time which said that there was a "disused washstand" against the wall which the bed was then against. A sketch also shows a sink like thing against the wall. The famous photo always seems to show the bed flush against the partition. Any ideas? If the bed was flush against the wall how on earth was the newly discovered photo taken of the back of Kelly's (skinned) leg? On the subject of the famous photo, why is it always cropped? I recently looked through "Ripper & the Royals" and was surprised to note that a repro of the photo showed the bottom of the bed below the mattress. Are other portions of the photo also cropped off on most repros?
This one is really trivial but is bugging me like hell. Also in Paley's book there is a plan of Miller's Court ( the only one I've seen) There are no "Privvies" in the plan and Kelly's room didn't have a bog. What on earth did she do if caught short? (did the disused washstand become "used"!)
Lastly, Miller's Court was demolished either in 1926 or 1928 or even 1929 depending on who you read ( the plaque on the Fruit Exchange says it was opened in 1929 and I would plump for 1928) Does anyone know if her tiny (bogless) room was still used as a dwelling up to that time or had the Court become derelict?
I told you they were trivial! |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Wednesday, 06 October 1999 - 06:40 am | |
Hello Brian:
From plans I have seen of nineteenth century courts in Liverpool, the privy (or privies) was (were) at the far end of the court furthest from the entrance of the court. It may have been a single privy considering that this was a smaller court, though the plans and photographs of such conveniences in Liverpool that I have seen show two privies, both with separate doors. If the privy was not at the far end it may have been adjacent to the water pump alongside 13 Miller's Court; the plans of MJK's court though show the pump but not a privy.
As for the disused washstand, I do think there is a good likelihood that it may have been in the corner at the side of the bed at the time of the murder, although other researchers such as Alex Chisholm and Stewart Evans think the sketch and account that appear to show it in that corner are erroneous. I think the washstand was moved out to take the photographs, and particularly to take the less well known photograph taken from that side of the bed. Even in the large famous photograph of MJK on the bed, it is apparent (at least to me) that there is space between the bed and wall sufficient for the washstand to have been there. In any case, even if the washstand was not in the corner, I believe that the plans and statements that say the bed was flush against the wall are wrong.
Chris George |
Author: paula williamson
Wednesday, 10 November 1999 - 07:28 am | |
| my name is paula and I just want to share my thoughts with someone |
Author: JackisBack
Wednesday, 10 November 1999 - 11:45 am | |
| Hello, Paula, please continue..don't be shy. |
Author: Julian
Thursday, 11 November 1999 - 04:50 pm | |
G'day Paula, JiB.
I've got it JiB. It's a game. We have to guess what she's thinking then pass that thought onto someone else. It's a bit like email tag.
Jules |
Author: anon
Thursday, 11 November 1999 - 10:13 pm | |
| Should keep you busy, and quiet, for a while then. |
Author: Julian
Sunday, 14 November 1999 - 08:51 pm | |
G'day Anon,
Pity it wouldn't do the same for you mate.
Jules |
Author: paula
Thursday, 25 November 1999 - 04:03 am | |
hello everyone!
Has anybody here ever been to st.Patricks Cemetry to see the site of her grave? I know that she has not got an actual grave but has anyone been to see the mark to say where Mary Jane was buried?
If so,what is it like? |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Thursday, 25 November 1999 - 08:02 am | |
Hello Paula:
I have not seen Mary Jane Kelly's grave in person (it is on my "to do list"!) but it may be seen on the net on the Find-A-Grave site at http://www.findagrave.com/pictures/1847.html
Also on the same Find-A-Grave site may be seen the graves of two of the other victims, Catherine Eddowes and Polly Nichols, suspects Lewis Carroll and Francis Tumblety, and others connected with the case such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
Chris George |
Author: paula
Tuesday, 30 November 1999 - 06:14 am | |
hello Chris George,
Thanks for letting me know about her 'grave'
I shall definately check that one out! I want to go and see it before the millenium, sorry but I'm rushed for time,
Thanks again,
Bye... |
Author: JackisBack
Tuesday, 30 November 1999 - 02:56 pm | |
| King George, you are amazing... |
Author: ChrisGeorge
Tuesday, 30 November 1999 - 04:50 pm | |
Hi, Prince Jack:
Even though you were not where they said you were on the relevant dates, it is still most gratifying to hear from from you.....
Most regally yours,
George, Chris (Rex) |
Author: Jon
Monday, 03 January 2000 - 10:51 pm | |
WHERE JACK THE RIPPER STRUCK
TWO MEN FALL AS GUNS BLAZE
In squalid, deserted Duval Street - where Jack the Ripper murdered Jane Kelly in 1888 - three men stepped out of a car yesterday and went into the pen club. A few minutes later they backed out. A Soho club manager, shot in the head, staggered after them. Then he crumpled in a heap - to die in the gutter. A second man, once a promising middle-weight boxer, shot in the stomach, fell over the body. The gangsters car drove off.
(Daily Express, Feb. 8, 1960) |
Author: The Viper
Tuesday, 04 January 2000 - 06:43 am | |
Quite, Jon. This incident was also reported in Tom Cullen's classic work "Autumn Of Terror", chapter 19.
But more chilling, with some obvious parallels to the MJK murder, was the killing in Miller's Court of Kitty Ronan on 2nd July 1909. To read Andy Aliffe's piece in the February 1999 issue of 'Ripperologist' try:-
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7020/aliffe21.html
Regards, V. |
Author: Christopher-Michael
Tuesday, 04 January 2000 - 01:55 pm | |
Some other information on Mary Jane Kelly's grave. If you visit St Patrick's, her grave is public grave 16, row 67.
The site had been unmarked until John Morrison (whom, in my opinion, has a very unhealthy obsession with MJK) erected a headstone in 1988, a photograph of which may be seen in Terence Sharkey's "JTR: 100 years of investigation). However, Morrison had erected his stone without the proper authority and - as it turned out - in the wrong location! The stone was thus removed, and Morrison is reputed to have slept with its pieces tucked under his bed.
The cemetery superintendent later placed a refurbished 1890 memorial above the actual resting place of Kelly. Morrison objected to this, and the memorial was removed and replaced with a ceramic cube. A picture of this cube may be seen in the Kevin O'Donnell / Andy and Sue Parlour book "The JTR Whitechapel Murders." |
Author: paula
Monday, 10 January 2000 - 07:43 am | |
Thanks for this information Chris,I actually rang St. Patricks myself but the man did not tell me the grave row or number,I don't know if you've gone on www.findagrave.com or not but there is a picture of the ceramic cube grave that you mention and I wonder if you could clarify for me if it is the grave in the book, "The JTR Whitechapel Murders".I also agree with you about, John Morrison,he sounds like he has a real problem.
Thanks Again. |
Author: Christopher-Michael
Monday, 10 January 2000 - 07:14 pm | |
Dear Paula -
So far as I can tell, the cube at www.findagrave.com is the same as that in the Parlours' book. For your interest, here is burial site information for the other Ripper victims, as printed in issue 14 of "Ripperana:"
Mary Ann Nichols: public grave 49500 square 318, Memorial Gardens, Manor Park Cemetery, London
Annie Chapman: Manor Park Cemetery, Forest Gate, London, public grave 78, square 148. No traces of the old graves now remains.
Catherine Eddowes: Memorial Gardens, Manor Park Cemetery, public grave 49336, square 318
Elizabeth Stride: East London Cemetery, grave 15509, square 37. A concrete frame has been placed over the grave.
CMD |
Author: Stef
Wednesday, 14 February 2001 - 04:34 pm | |
Hi there, I'm new to posting.
Could anyone please tell me a little about the history of Millers Court. I know it was demolished in 1929 but that's all I really know. What fascinates me is that, whilst Spitalfields was awash with "common lodging houses" of the type of No 13 in the Victorian era, surely, as Britain almost entered the 1930s it couldn't still be used as a squalid bedsit. Or, had the court long since fallen derelict when it was finally demolished?
Any and all info gratefully received.
N.B if you know where I can find out more about Millers Court do let me know that as well. |
Author: Leanne Perry
Wednesday, 14 February 2001 - 09:30 pm | |
G'day Stef,
The book: 'The Many Faces Of Jack the Ripper' - M.J. Trow, begins with many pictures and text about the murder sites as they are today.
On page 24, there's a photo of Millers Court, Dorset Street that is: 'somewhere under the multi-storey carpark on the right'.
Leanne! |
Author: Jon
Wednesday, 14 February 2001 - 11:42 pm | |
Tom Cullen, in the back of his "Crimes & Times of JtR", gives a little history of Millers Court and what has happened there since 1888, by way of a newspaper account.
WHERE JACK THE RIPPER STRUCK
TWO MEN FALL AS GUNS BLAZE
Daily Express, Feb. 8 1960
Millers Court, or thereabouts was a casino in 1960 and Dorset street was called Duval Street.
Later to be torn down once more and turned into a multi-story carpark.
I might expect Viper to have more accurate info. on this part of town.
Regards, Jon |
Author: Kevin Aldridge
Sunday, 01 April 2001 - 07:07 am | |
Hi stef.
I am also new to this site & find it very interesting.
Just a quick message re the actual site of MJK bed.
I was brought up in the direct area of the crimes & still live very close to all the murder sites(at the bottom of Brick Lane in Bethnal Green Road).
As I work in the city I walk past two of the sites (Hanbury St & what was dorset St) every day. The site of the Hanbury St murder was pulled down in the 1970's by the Truman Brewery & the site of Millers Ct was pulled down in the 20's or 30's as an extensions to the old Fruit Market.
There was a book published a couple of years ago by two local historians titled "The East End then & now" they with the help of old police records & old maps measured the old site & placed the exact location of the bed about six feet behind the green shutter doors in the Fruit Exchange building.
As a sort of back up to this books claim, some years ago whilst having a discussion about the supernatural with a mate, he told me that his Mum had a early morning cleaning job in the fruit exchange building back in the late 1960's & hated working there alone as her boss told her that the area she was responsible for cleaning was the site of "one of Jack the Rippers murders" & that part of the building was supposed to be haunted by the victims ghost(if you believe in that sort of thing).
One other note of interest that at the bottom of the old Dorset St site that runs parallel to the exchange is the old Providence row night refuge, where according to some books MJK lived for a while.At the moment there is scaffolding & building boards around the place as if its up for renovating or demolishing.(I hope it's not the latter hence another part of local history is gone to make way for so called progress)
Anyway hope this helps.
Cheers |
Author: Tom Wescott
Sunday, 01 April 2001 - 11:11 am | |
Kevin,
That's some interesting info. That's strange how your mom used to work on the same spot that Mary was killed. Did anything 'strange' ever happen to her there, or was she just nervous because of the history of the place.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Kevin Aldridge
Sunday, 01 April 2001 - 12:14 pm | |
Hi Tom.
It was my mates Mum that used to work in the old exchange building not mine but as far as I know she didden't have any weird experiences, it was just the gruesome history of the spot that spooked her.
But in saying that, the stories of the Truman brewery being Haunted by the ghost of the Hanbury St victim is locally well known & I have also heard of the Bucks row(now renamed Duward St)murder site being haunted by the rippers victim.
Perhaps if you are really interested I could do a little research at the local library & see if there is any info on local hauntings connected with the case & post my findings here.
Cheers -Kevin |
Author: Christopher T George
Monday, 02 April 2001 - 09:33 am | |
Hi, Kevin:
I am sure there are books on London ghosts by the counterparts of Liverpool's Tom Slemen, and I have no doubt that they will have covered the Ripper crimes as they would any other bloody event that would have emitted psychic energy that will have remained associated with the murder spots to this day. Let us know if you find such books and what they say about any hauntings related to the Whitechapel murders.
Best Regards
Chris George |
Author: Tom Wescott
Tuesday, 03 April 2001 - 01:26 am | |
Hello,
I know for a fact there's a book or two that cover these ghost stories. Rubbish though they are, it's an interesting statement on how this series of murders has effected it's environment.
Chris,
Totally off the current topic, but I'm curious...Are there any Ripper books (Matters or later) that you don't own?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Author: Wolf Vanderlinden
Tuesday, 03 April 2001 - 01:36 am | |
Peter Underwoods', Jack the Ripper One Hundred Years of Mystery, contains a chapter titled 'Ghosts of the Ripper' in which Underwood had collected several examples of hauntings that were related to the murder sites. Leonard Matters also mentions talking to a long time resident of Dorset Street who claimed the house where the murder took place was supposedly haunted but the old man had got the address wrong, pointing to a house down the street from Millers Court.
Wolf. |
Author: Christopher T George
Tuesday, 03 April 2001 - 08:27 am | |
Hi, Tom:
Actually, there are many Ripper books that I don't own, Matters and Underwood being two that I might name, but I am gradually building up my library. 
As pointed out by Caz, you will note that Montague Burrell is really Allison (going by her e-mail address) and, interestingly, a number of other people in Merseyside who have been posting about Slemen's research are using a screen name that is different from the name indicated by their e-mail address.
Chris |
Author: Tom Wescott
Tuesday, 03 April 2001 - 02:39 pm | |
Chris,
That is interesting. What do you make of that?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
