Archive through January 27, 2001

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Archive through January 27, 2001

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: Specific Victims: Mary Jane Kelly: Archive through January 27, 2001

Author: Wolf Vanderlinden Wednesday, 11 October 2000 - 11:28 am
The National Gallery in Ottawa, John? Wolf.
Author: John Dixon Thursday, 12 October 2000 - 07:54 am
Wolf , Brisbane Australia. I should have been specific. I'm not into art. But 1 is of a foggy London twlight. You could imagine Jack lurking in it. If anyone is interested I'll get the details. John
Author: Jim Leen Wednesday, 15 November 2000 - 08:03 pm
Hello Everybody, There still seems to be some mystery about the unfortunate Mary Kelly, i.e. her d.o.b. and family details etc, can't seem to be found. In a sudden blast of inspiration, aided by a glass or two of Cabernet, I wondered if the enigma was caused by Anglicisation. You see, it's been accepted by everyone that Mary was definitely her forename, and most writers have decreed that Jeanette is an affectation picked up after the time she spent in France. But are these details accurate? Kelly, after all, was Irish. Would Mhairi, or Mhare, not be more accurate. Also considering the links between Ireland and Scotland, in general although it should be mentioned her brother was in the Scots Guards, Marie would be another alternative. Also, speaking as a Glaswegian, the name Jeanette is far from uncommon and hardly an affectation here. I could also add the Hugenot influx of the late 18th century to dilute the affectation notion further. Is it possible that we have been looking at the English equivalent of a Gaelic name for the past hundred odd years? Thanking you etc Jim Leen
Author: Scott Nelson Thursday, 21 December 2000 - 12:25 am
Question to Dr. Tom Ind: Did you ever make any follow-up communications with Kelly Jones? If so, what did she say?
Author: Davidoz Monday, 08 January 2001 - 06:59 pm
Mary Jane Kelly, She has the greatest number of posters, why? Could it be that, subconsciously, you Posters 'sense' something special in the murder of MJK? (Refer, General Discussion III.)Any ideas, anybody?
Author: Rebecca A Bonell Monday, 08 January 2001 - 08:01 pm
hi my names rebecca does any one know what color mary kelly's hair and eyes were.
Author: Leanne Perry Monday, 08 January 2001 - 10:26 pm
G'day Davidoz, Mary Jane Kelly stood out from the other canonical victims, because of her age and the fact that she was murdered indoors, etc. Also the fact that the Ripper killings, appeared to cease after hers, makes me believe that she holds more of the answers. The other girls appear to have been chosen at random, but Mary Jane's killing took a bit of planning. REBECCA: Mary's Hair, I believe was fair. LEANNE!
Author: Davidoz Tuesday, 09 January 2001 - 05:49 am
Red hair? An Inverness lassie?
Author: Davidoz Tuesday, 09 January 2001 - 01:17 pm
Leanne Perry, BUT did Jack the Ripper stop his murderous mayhem after Mary J Kelly?
Author: Leanne Perry Tuesday, 09 January 2001 - 05:51 pm
G'day, GINGER? Davidoz, I like to think that 'Jack the Ripper' stopped after Mary Jane Kelly. The person who played the part of 'Jack the Ripper' may have continued a life of 'mayhem', (ie changed his MO)! Leanne!
Author: Warwick Parminter Tuesday, 09 January 2001 - 08:04 pm
THE STAR, NOV 10th 1888,-- told how Barnett looked through the open window. At the inquest, Barnett said he identified Kelly's body by her hair and eyes.
Author: Grailfinder Tuesday, 09 January 2001 - 08:30 pm
Hi Warwick "Open, or Broken"? Or, if the whole windowframe was to be taken out? would it not then be, Open to the elements? Please give your thoughts on how you interpret the word 'Open' in the 'Star's report. cheers
Author: Davidoz Wednesday, 10 January 2001 - 12:20 pm
Alegria, Why not pick on "Grailfinder". The more you think about his 'posters' the more obscure it gets. (With apologises to Grailfinder).
Author: Warwick Parminter Wednesday, 10 January 2001 - 01:17 pm
Hello Grailfinder, I'm only guessing, but by the time Barnett got there,--somewhere around one o'clock, the police had been there about two hrs, so it's possible the two slide up and down window frames had been removed from the main frame of each window,--because they were both sash windows. Even if that had been the case, it wouldn't have let much more light into the room. Which window he viewed from, I don't know, I suppose both. But could he have seen the colour of her eyes, in that light, from that distance, in the state of condition the face was in?-- forehead skinned and eyebrows cut off. We today looking at a photograph,--with a magnifying glass-- can barely make out a face at all. I don't know whether it was the case at the time, but today some people doubt whether it was Mary Kelly at all. Regards Rick
Author: Warwick Parminter Wednesday, 10 January 2001 - 01:38 pm
Davidoz, anyone who addresses me by name I normally treat with civility and seriousness, just when I start to regard you in a serious way, you seem to drift off into gibberish again. I don't care for riddles that much, if it can be said straight why not say it straight?. What's the point in your "funny little games", you'll have people get fed up with you , you know! A Well wisher
Author: Rebecca A Bonell Wednesday, 10 January 2001 - 08:16 pm
back on the subject of mary kelly's hair color i just decided to go with what most people said it was. so her eyes are now blue but her hair is still a toss up between blond and chestnut. any further votes? rebecca
Author: Leanne Perry Thursday, 11 January 2001 - 05:38 am
G'day Rebecca, Her nicknames were: 'Black Mary' 'Fair Emma' & 'Ginger'. I'd say that 'Black Mary' was because of her temper and her hair was a fair/ginger colour! Leanne!
Author: Warwick Parminter Thursday, 11 January 2001 - 09:10 am
"IF MARY WAS KILLED BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE RIPPER", has anyone seriously considered Joseph Flemming as her killer?. He (supposedly) visited her while she lived with Barnett and he didn't like her doing that!. He "abused" her for putting herself in that situation, so we are told. NOW DAVIDOZ, this is where I try to put myself in the participants position,-- if I were Flemming, how would I feel having lost a woman I thought a lot of,--OR LOVED, to a man like Barnett. If I were Barnett, seeing myself losing the woman I loved, to the street, or maybe to Flemming,--- (well I personally, at my age, would walk away), but for two men in their 30s, I don't think that would be the case at all. Tempers and feelings would simmer and maybe boil over,-- with a view on one side or the other of,--IF I CAN'T HAVE HER, YOU WON'T HAVE HER, YOU B------D, and Mary finds herself dead. Rick P. S. and why not see to it that the Ripper gets the blame!
Author: Rebecca A Bonell Thursday, 11 January 2001 - 07:28 pm
thank you leanne mary now has blonde/ginger hair, at least in my version of her description. rebecca
Author: Leanne Perry Friday, 12 January 2001 - 01:19 am
G'day Warwick, THAT'S SILLY!...To kill the woman you love, instead of the man who kept her from you! Mary told her friend Julia Venturney, that she was fond of another Joe, (Flemming), so I think it would have been Barnett who was angry at Flemming! LEANNE!
Author: Michael Lyden Friday, 12 January 2001 - 05:30 am
Hello, Rick,to suggest that the Kelly's killer was anyone other than JtR is madness.I'm glad you mentioned Flemming though. unfortunately Flemming is another character we know next to nothing about but he is worth considering as a possible suspect and might just hold the key to a solution(sorry!). So has anybody done any research into Joseph Flemming? Another interesting question that has surfaced again is that of Kelly's hair colour.Most sources seem to say blond or fair but in the photograph it as clearly dark(ginger?)It seems puzzling then that Walter Dew Who knew Kelly,also describes Kelly as being blond.I dont accept the argument that says that Kelly's hair looks dark in the photo' due to the fact that it is saturated with blood.If this were the case it would take on a matted apearance, but it doesn't.I am aware that the chemicals that were used in photography at the time,produced some distortion in the reproduction of certain tones,but this effect was slight and wouldn't have changed a blond into a ginger! Your thoughts please. Mick Lyden.
Author: Warwick Parminter Friday, 12 January 2001 - 07:04 am
You must be quite young Leanne! Rick
Author: Warwick Parminter Friday, 12 January 2001 - 07:18 am
Hello Mick, I wasn't saying I thought Flemming could be guilty, (I have my own theory, which I'm sticking with), I was asking if anyone else had any thoughts about him-- he doesn't seem to get mentioned much! I think Mary's hair was a deep copper, or auburn colour, but we only have word descriptions,--and no two descriptions are alike. Pity there are no colour photographs. Rick
Author: Ashling Friday, 12 January 2001 - 08:16 am
Hi all. Mick: Could you please give your source where Dew describes Mary as being blond? Thanks, Ashling
Author: Diana Friday, 12 January 2001 - 06:33 pm
There is a shade of hair which at least in the United States is referred to as "strawberry blond". It is a shade halfway between red and blond or it could be thought of as blonde with red overtones. I don't know if this helps? Could the technology that colorizes old b&w films be used to decipher the color of Mary's hair?
Author: Leanne Perry Friday, 12 January 2001 - 06:40 pm
G'day, The 'A-Z' says: 'Mark King has discovered that a lunatic described as 'Joseph Flemming' otherwise James Evans, died in Claybury Mental Hospital in August 1920 with Flemming's mother, Henrietta's name and address on his records as the friend to be informed of any change in his circumstances. King speculated that this was Kelly's Flemming'. LEANNE!
Author: Leanne Perry Friday, 12 January 2001 - 07:58 pm
G'day, Back on 'April 1, 2000', Ned Glass said that the idea that Kelly was pregnant came from William Stewarts 1939 book, supporting the 'Jill the Ripper' theory. Stewart claimed to have seen a report by Dr. Phillips, stating that Mary was 'In the early stages of pregnancy'. Wilson and Odell's book: 'Summing Up and Verdict' says that 'Kelly was in the early stages of pregnancy'. Author Melvin Fairclough claimed that a 'pregnant Mary Jane Kelly' sprang from the diaries of Inspector Abberline. Christopher-Michael claims Kelly's pregnancy derived from confused press reports of the day. Then on the 'Fire In Kelly's Room' board, 'Archive through December 22, 2000' on 'April 02/2000 - 04:26 a.m.' I say that I believe the "I am pregnant" thing started as a 'little-white-life' from Mary Jane to Joe in an attempt to keep Joseph Barnett away. What do people think? LEANNE!
Author: Michael Lyden Saturday, 13 January 2001 - 02:24 pm
Hello everyone, Ashling, I have to admit I cannot for the life of me remember where I read Walter Dew's description of Kelly but I do remember him also stating that MJK often wore a clean, white apron and was usually "bare headed". If the old brain has garbled any of this please correct me. Diana,unfortunately the computers used to colourize old films, only reproduce colours they are programmed to reproduce based on decisions made by the artists and technicians involved in the production. Leanne, thanks for the extra snippet about Joseph Flemming. Regards, Mick Lyden.
Author: Warwick Parminter Saturday, 13 January 2001 - 05:21 pm
Mick, In the AtoZ Walter Dew say's,---Mary was noted for her quick temper and her violence that went with it. Tom Cullen states that was how she gained one of her nick-names--Black Mary! Walter Dew was one of the policemen who first saw Mary's body, he said he knew her well, by sight. He say's,"she was good looking, and paraded around the district, usually in the company of two or three friends. She never wore a hat, and she always wore a spotlessly clean white apron". Philip Sugden goes further, he described her as 5ft-7in tall, and well built. Rick
Author: Diana Saturday, 13 January 2001 - 09:01 pm
In 1888 Mary could have been considered attractive and chubby too. Standards of beauty have changed.
Author: Jim DiPalma Monday, 15 January 2001 - 01:11 pm
Hi All, Mick, I'm not sure if this the reference you had in mind, but I seem to recall MJK being described as "fair as a lily". I believe the description was from Dew's memoirs I Caught Crippen, but I'm working from memory (always a dicey business) and not 100% certain. Assuming this is the case, he may have been referring to her complexion - I don't recall Dew specifically stating that she had blonde hair. Hope this helps, Jim
Author: Christopher T George Monday, 15 January 2001 - 03:23 pm
Hi, Jim: The expression "Fair as a lily" is a measure of attractiveness not of "fairness" as opposed to "darkness." Another way of saying it would be "Fine as a lily." It would have had nothing to do with Mary's complexion, i.e., whether she was light or dark. Chris George
Author: Jon Monday, 15 January 2001 - 08:28 pm
For anyone who's interested.... Walter Dew's remarks concerning Mary Kelly.... "aged between 20 and 25 and quite attractive" "fairly neatly dressed and invariably wearing a clean white apron, but no hat" "poor Marie Kelly, whom I had known well by sight as a pretty, buxom girl" "sunny of nature, had been very popular" (Memoirs of Ex-Chief Inspector Walter Dew, C.I.D. of Scotland Yard - 1938) Regards, Jon
Author: Ashling Wednesday, 17 January 2001 - 12:10 pm
Hi Chris, Mick, Jim and anyone else passing by! Thanks Jon--That last description of Mary is one I didn't have in my files on her. Here's one that has nothing to do with Dew: "... the victim being Marie Jeanette Kelly - a woman about 25 years of age - a BLONDE, of medium height, who was born in Wales, married a collier at sixteen years of age, and becoming a widow shortly afterwards, led a gay life every since." Source: East London Observer Saturday 17 Nov. 1888. Full article available on Casebook main menu--Press Reports. Might be one of the new batches courtesy of Viper, Spry and some willing typist ... I just read it last night. Ashling
Author: Colleen Andrews Tuesday, 23 January 2001 - 08:55 pm
Mary Ann Kelly in 1881 (adapted from my posting "Locating the Ripper Victims on the 1881 Census") In 1881 the Kelly family lived at 19 Homfray Street, in the parish of St. Mary's, Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales. The household contained John Kelly, general labourer, aged 55, born Ireland, his wife Margaret Kelly, 57, also born in Ireland, daughter Helen Kelly, aged 24, born in Cardiff, son John Kelly, aged 19, general labourer, born in Cardiff, & Mary Ann Kelly, aged 16, born in Cardiff. The contemporary accounts stating that Mary Ann Kelly only "called herself Irish" would seem to be supported by this. In fact she was Irish by blood, but Welsh by birth. Interestingly, her sister Helen's occupation is given as "at home" but Mary Ann's is given as "no occupation." Although there were reports that Mary Ann married a collier named Davies when she was 16, she listed herself as unmarried on the census. Also boarding with the family were married couple Michael & Margaret Flavin, their baby Margaret (aged 3 months), 14 year old James Shea, & 6 year old Robert Downey. Michael Flavin was a general labourer born in Ireland as well. James Shea was born in Ireland & attending school. Robert Downey was born in Cardiff & also attending school. Who these 2 young boys were is unknown; perhaps they were relatives of Mr. or Mrs. Kelly. The Flavins may have been related to the Kellys as well. The Mary Kelly controversy need only be a controversy, I believe, due to the apparently common nature of the names Mary & Kelly, even when (or especially when) combined with Ann or Jane. Sugden in the addendum to The Complete History of Jack the Ripper makes valid & valuable points regarding Kelly's probable family in the 1871 & 1881 censuses. Sugden expressed reservations about his findings based on the censuses listing the Kelly children as born in Cardiff. This didn't fit with contemporary accounts which state Mary Kelly was Irish. There was, however, at least one contemporary account that described Mary as merely "calling herself Irish." That her family background was Irish seems an established fact. What I believe has caused the confusion is a misinterpretation of the term "Irish" on the part of both Kelly's contemporaries & current researchers today. Kelly was in fact correct in calling herself Irish; according to the 1871 & 1881 censuses, both her parents were born in Ireland. In fact, by 19th century standards, she would have been correct in calling herself Irish if only her father had been Irish, no matter what her mother's background was. In Canada, a person's racial origin was asked for on the 1881 census, & you took this origin from your father, i.e. if your father was Irish & your mother Russian, officially, on the 1881 census, you were Irish. Mary Kelly could have been & by all intents & purposes seems indeed to have been born in Cardiff, Wales, but this didn't make her Welsh anymore than being born in a stable made Jesus Christ a horse. She was Welsh by nationality, but Irish by race. In fact since Wales wasn't even its own country anymore in 1881, the term "Welsh" as a national description is invalid; it only existed in terms of race, & racially Mary Kelly was Irish. I believe Mary's shadowy "marriage" to a collier named Davies is a myth. Perhaps she had a relationship with some such person, but I believe if she had actually married him someone would have come up with the actual marriage record by now. It should not be that hard to locate a marriage between a Davies & a person named Mary Kelly somewhere in the British Isles between the years 1878 & 1888 (to use a very liberal timespan). Mary was said to have married this collier at 16; yet according to accounts that state she was born around 1864, she would have been nearly exactly 16 in 1881. I therefore did a few searches of the national index to the 1881 census & came up with the following results: · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Caernarvon, living in Caernarvon in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Caernarvon, living in Glamorgan in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Ireland, living in Caernarvon in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Ireland, living in Glamorgan in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Glamorgan, living in Glamorgan in 1881=3 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Glamorgan, living in Caernarvon in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Carmarthen, living in Glamorgan in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Glamorgan, living in Carmarthen in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Ireland, living in Carmarthen in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Kelly, born between 1859 & 1869 in Carmarthen, living in Carmarthen in 1881=0 As can be seen, this narrows the immediate field quite a bit. I concentrated on Carmarthen & Caernarvon because contemporary accounts believed her family to have some connections with these Welsh counties. Glamorgan is the county in which Cardiff lies. Only 3 Mary Kellys turned up in all of these searches; all were born in Glamorgan & living in Glamorgan in 1881. Two were in Cardiff, the third was in Llantrisant. 1. The first is one Mary Kelly, aged 17, living as a servant with John George & Josephine Todd at St. Mary Street, Cardiff (St. Mary's parish). This Mary Kelly was unmarried, gave her occupation as nurse, & her birthplace as Dowlais, Glamorgan. 2. The second one is the Mary Kelly mentioned in my first posting. As someone else pointed out, Sugden in his book The Complete History of Jack the Ripper claims that the Margaret Flavin living with this Kelly family was Mary Kelly's sister. This is entirely possible; both were born in Cardiff, & Margaret Flavin may have been named after her "mother" Margaret Kelly. This seems even more logical when you note her baby daughter was named Margaret as well. Admittedly, if Margaret Flavin was the daughter of John Kelly, the head of the household, this relationship was missed by the census-taker or omitted by his informants; she is described simply as a boarder & wife of Michael Flavin, who is also described merely as a boarder & not a son-in-law. However, this is definitely the same family Sugden located in the 1871 census. Both parents were born in Ireland, the children in Cardiff. Mary Ann (note both names appear here) was listed as having no occupation & she was not married. She was 16. 3. The third candidate was one Mary Ann Kelly (again, note the complete name), aged 15, living with her parents Thomas & Dorothy Kelly at Penrhiwfer, 7 Caemawr Terrace, Llantrisant. She was unmarried & there was no occupation listed. Both of her parents were born in Cornwall, her father in Provose & her mother in St. Austell. There were 4 Kelly brothers living with the family as well: James, William, Tom, & Alfred. One Kelly sister was in the household with her husband Joseph Brown & their 2 young sons. The oldest 3 children, aged 20, 18 & 17 respectively, were born in St. Austell, Cornwall. The rest of the children, starting with 15 yr old Mary Ann, were born in Llantrisant. We can conclude therefore that this Kelly family was Cornish in origin & moved from St. Austell to Llantrisant, Wales between 1864 & 1866. Obviously the third Mary is not the Kelly we are looking for. You could make a case for the first Mary, but I believe the second one fits all the requirements satisfactorily. However for the sake of argument let's say that Mary Kelly was Mary Davies in 1881 & search the 1881 census again: · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Glamorgan, living in Glamorgan in 1881=640 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Glamorgan, living in Caernarvon in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Caernarvon, living in Glamorgan in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Caernarvon, living in Caernarvon in 1881=44 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Ireland, living in Glamorgan in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Ireland, living in Caernarvon in1881=0 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Ireland, living in Carmarthen in 1881=0 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Glamorgan, living in Carmarthen in 1881=10 · Persons named Mary Davies born between 1859 & 1869 in Carmarthen, living in Glamorgan in 1881=42 Obviously Davies was an even more common name than Kelly, especially in Wales. The worst scenario here is the 640 Mary Davies in Caernarvon in 1881, all of them born in Glamorgan within the same 10 years. If we narrow the field down to 1862-1866 there are still 307 Mary Davies in Caernarvon in 1881, all of them born in Glamorgan. There are more possibilities for Mary Kelly under the name Davies, but personally I think the Mary Kelly we're looking for is one of the 3 mentioned above. Finally, while it is true that ages given on censuses are often suspect, as a general rule I've found that on the 1881 British censuses people often appear a year younger than they actually were because the census was taken in the spring. As well, while people could & did get their ages wrong & sometimes their marital status (witness Catherine Eddowes, alias Kate Conway), birthplaces were more or less accurate to within a few miles. As Sugden states, it's a mystery why Mary Kelly's birth in Cardiff between 1863 & 1866 hasn't been located yet. It would be interesting to search for the birth record of one of her siblings first, or her parents' marriage record. I also wonder if there's a possibility, since the family was obviously of Irish origin, of the original family name being O'Kelly. Where Mary Kelly is concerned I decided to try searching the index for her on the assumption that she was already in London in 1881. A blanket search of the national index turned up a staggering 977 Mary Kellys in Great Britain who were born between 1858 & 1868. However only 151 of these were born in Ireland. Eighty-two were born in Wales. There were 77 Mary Kellys living in London in 1881 who were born between 1858 & 1868 (only one of these was born in Wales). One of these census entries caught my eye, although chances are it does not refer to the right Mary Kelly. In the infirmary of the Whitechapel Union on Bakers Row, in Mile End Old Town, London, there was a Mary Kelly, aged 23. She was unmarried, born in Whitechapel, a pauper, & her occupation was given as prostitute. Her birthplace doesn't coincide with sources regarding the Ripper's Mary Kelly, & she was 5 or 6 years older than her as well. But this find is interesting in that there were several women in the infirmary listed as prostitutes. Despite Sugden's comment wondering how Mary Kelly fell into prostitution at so young an age, this census entry demonstrates youth was no deterrent against squalor or degradation: there were 4 other prostitutes besides Mary Kelly in the same infirmary who were in their twenties, & one who was only 17. There were 9 Mary Kellys living in London in 1881 who were born in Ireland between 1858 & 1868 (including a Mary O'Kelly & Mary McHale), so I decided to look at these. A few intriguing possibilities emerged. 1. At 1 Alfreds Cottages, Westminster (St. John Evangelist), there was a Mary Kelly living with a Rachel Barnett. This Rachel Barnett was described as a lodger but also the head of the household; she was a laundress, unmarried, & aged 23. Could she have been related to Joseph Barnett? Mary was described as a general servant who was unemployed, also a lodger, & she was 22 & unmarried. She gave her birthplace as Westminster. Again, this doesn't coincide with what we know about the Ripper's Mary Kelly, & this Mary Kelly is also about 4 or 5 years older than she should be, but the Kelly/Barnett context is, I think, worthy of note even if only a coincidence. 2. Another Mary Kelly lived with George & Margaret Law at 6A Gas Court, St. Marylebone, London. George Law was a 46-year-old shoemaker born in Kilkenny, Ireland. Mary Kelly was an unmarried 20-year-old servant, described as a relation of George Law's. Again, this Mary Kelly was born in Marylebone, Middlesex instead of either Ireland or Wales, but she is closer in age to the Mary Kelly in question. 3. Another Mary Kelly was living with 50-year-old widow & housekeeper Catherine Mitchell at 4 Boundary Place, Shoreditch. Catherine Mitchell was born in Ireland & so was her "niece" & housemaid Mary Kelly, unmarried & 18 years old. This Mary Kelly is more promising than either of the preceding ones; her age fits exactly with what is thought to have been Mary Ann Kelly's birthdate, & she was born in Ireland. Could this be the source of the contemporary report that Mary Kelly went to live with "cousins" after the end of her putative "marriage"? The contemporary sources say the cousins were in Wales, but this might be an error-here we have a Mary Kelly born at the right time in the right place living with an aunt in the right area of London within 7 years of Mary Kelly's murder. Coincidence? 4. Even more startlingly, at 1 Suffolk Place, St. Marylebone, London, there lived in 1881 John & Mary Kelly & their 4 children. Both John & Mary were born in Ireland, & John was a pavier. Their children were John, Thomas, Briget (sic) & Catherine, all born in London. Also living with them was a Mary Kelly, aged 18, & born in London. No marital status is given, & her relationship to the head of the household is merely described as "lodger." Her occupation is given as domestic servant. Again, another Mary Kelly, of possible Irish extraction if not birth (was she a relative of the head of the household?), born at the right time & living in London in 1881. 5. Again, in 1881 at 72 Oldfield Road, Stoke Newington, London, there lived "Jno." (i.e. John) & Mary Kelly & their 7 daughters. John was a post office porter born in Limerick, Ireland. His wife was born in Bresna, Ireland. All of their daughters were born in Islington, but the 3rd daughter was Mary Ann Kelly, aged 17, unmarried, & a "prover tester." She was unmarried. This Mary Kelly again is not born in the right place but her father is from Limerick. Contemporary accounts stated the Ripper's Mary Kelly was from Limerick. This Mary Kelly is also in the right age bracket. Next I searched Wales itself. There were 14 Mary Kellys living in Wales in 1881 who were born between 1858 & 1868. Only two of these were born in Ireland: 1. Mary Ann Kelly, aged 16, living on Church Street in Flint, Wales, with her parents John & Ellen Kelly, 2 brothers (including a John), & one sister. Her father's occupation was given as "general labourer" & he was 43 years old, born in Ireland. Mary Ann herself was listed as a general labourer & her birthplace was given as "--, Ireland." Her 14-year-old brother John was born in Caernarvon, Wales, & the youngest child in Flint, Wales. This Kelly family is in the wrong area of Wales to be the Ripper's Mary Kelly, but nevertheless, we have a Mary Ann Kelly born in Ireland around 1865, daughter of a John Kelly, with a brother John Kelly. In addition to this, there is a reference to Caernarvon, & from the census data we can determine that this Kelly family left Ireland for Caernarvon, Wales between 1865 & 1867. This fits with contemporary accounts which state Mary Kelly came to Wales as a young child with her family. 2. In Broughton Colliery Cottages in Brymbo, Denbigh, Wales there lived in 1881 Hubert & Bridget Kelly. Hubert was 51, a general labourer, & born in Ireland, as was his wife. They had 9 children, of which the first 6 were born in Ireland. Among these 6 were a Mary Kelly, aged 17, unmarried, listed as a servant. There is also a son John. Confusingly, the first 6 children down to 10-year-old Elizabeth Kelly are listed as being born in Ireland. Seven-year-old Garret F. Kelly is said to be born in Lodge, Denbigh, Wales, but then 4-year-old Thomas E. Kelly is again said to be born in Ireland. One-year-old Timothy Kelly was born in Lodge, Denbigh, Wales. This family apparently left Ireland for Wales between 1871 & 1874 (when their Mary would have been aged 7 to 10), & bounced back to Ireland again briefly around 1877. This family is also interesting because it lists the first direct reference to a colliery, although we can't rule out the possibility that any or all of the John Kellys we've looked at so far, listed as "general labourers," were in fact colliers. I'd appreciate any thoughts on these Kelly families. Personally I think the strongest contender other than the Cardiff family already mentioned in Sugden's book & my previous postings is the Welsh family mentioned above from Flint. There is no denying that, however confused or inaccurate the contemporary accounts may be in their details, Mary Kelly had a definite Welsh connection of some sort as well as an Irish one.
Author: Colleen Andrews Tuesday, 23 January 2001 - 09:18 pm
On a geographical note, the places Dowlais & Llantrisant, where people named Mary Kelly were living in 1881, are both close enough to Cardiff to be referred to loosely as "Cardiff" if spoken of to people a distance away. Also, I have found in the International Genealogical Index, a Mary Kelly, daughter of John & Hannah Kelly, christened on January 18, 1863 in Gelligaer, Wales--this is also very close to Cardiff. Unfortunately the IGI is not a viable tool for finding Mary Kelly since it is mainly useful for pre-1840.
Author: Franceska Kemp Wednesday, 24 January 2001 - 08:25 am
Colleen, your research is brilliant! Regarding the mystery of Kelly's birth certificate, has anyone ever looked to see whether she was born on a boat? Those records are in a different book at the Public Record Office. Just a thought (and it would tie in nicely with a certain Ms Kelly Jones's story that was doing the rounds a while back.) Franceska
Author: Colleen Andrews Thursday, 25 January 2001 - 12:01 am
For what it's worth (which admittedly isn't much) I searched the International Genealogical Index for marriages of Mary Kellys to any man named Davies & there were only 2: 1) Maria Kelly married John Davies on April 9, 1828 in Llanelly, Brecon, Wales 2) Mary Ann Kelly married Henry Davies on September 4, 1849 at St. Martin-in-the-Fields, London Obviously neither of these can be the Mary Kelly in question, & the IGI is only really useful up to about 1840, but I thought this was interesting in that it shows that although both the names Kelly & Davies were extremely common, a union of the two is not necessarily common at all--the IGI stretches back to the 16th century in some spots, so 2 Kelly/Davies marriages in about 300 years is pretty telling.
Author: Qbase Thursday, 25 January 2001 - 12:20 pm
Hello, Just a note. Is it not Mary 'Jane' rather than Ann as her middle name? G
Author: Colleen Andrews Saturday, 27 January 2001 - 10:14 pm
Hi, The problem with Mary Kelly is both Mary Jane & Mary Ann have cropped up as her full name. When searching for a likely candidate for her I search for simply Mary Kelly which brings up both. Mary Ann shows up more often, & the candidates look more likely, than any Mary Janes.