|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Archive through January 08, 2001
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
Photo-reconstruction:
Archive through January 08, 2001
Author: Bob_c
Wednesday, 17 February 1999 - 08:12 am |        | Hi everyone
I have made a new topic out of this for reason which will, I suppose, become apparent.
We discussed for some time about 3D virtuals applied to Jack. This seems to have cooled down but not, I hope, gone away.
I was idly toying with the idea of making up a full virtual 3D of Eddowes, clothing her etc. because there are a number of photos of this unfortunate from different angles, including the full length photo of her against the wall. It will be (I hope) no great problem to 'rip', (no pun intended) her outlines and other facial and body details and to cloth her in the fashion of the time, we even have a description of her outfit as she was killed.
Nice as the photos are, they do not show every angle. There is a method, however, to improve depth detail even with only one photo when certain separate information is also available. I was once employed to develop radar target systems for guided missiles (at the time of the Falkland War I swore never again to use my energy in developing such weapons and never have).
For example, we know how tall Eddowes was. We know that her back can not be wider as her breast, we can judge from her body form front how her buttocks, upper and lower legs rear would appear in outline, just the same as you can work out how an aircraft seen from one side will look in silhouette from the other. You can build a 3D model up which will not have all details, but will represent a fair visual representation of the object, in this case a person.
This mixture of photographic fact and fantasy can be improved to a point where a learn process starts. We look at the profile, change the angle by a few degrees, and our own experience tells us that, or that, is wrong or can be better. Very nice.
I then began to think, we have only limited facial pictures of the others, so there is not enough to work on, until Kelly's case came to my mind. I realised, with some shock, that there were certain possibilities there too. But there is something else.
In the minds of the board, can it be morally responsible to consider such an act, that of photographically piecing the unfortunate together as far as can be done, using the possibilities described above. I am not squeamish, but there is somehow something distasteful, irreverent in it and the possible gains must, if it were to be done, substantial to warrant it.
All comments, for, against, what-you-have are welcome
Bob |
Author: Edana
Wednesday, 17 February 1999 - 09:26 am | | Hello Bob.
I know what you mean. I was playing with my 3D program trying to reconstruct the bed upon which Mary Kelly was slaughtered. I had always avoided looking too closely at those photos of Eddowes, even when everybody was discussing patterns of wounds, etc. The task you describe would be a very difficult and heart rending task, but then I think, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing. At least we would have an image of the poor woman alive and unmaimed...or would we have a simulcrum, something to play with? I don't know. It all depends on how you look at it I suppose.
Edana |
Author: Bob_c
Wednesday, 17 February 1999 - 09:55 am | | Hi Edana,
My feelings exactly. I have done a lot of research on Kelly, I have had the luck to have contacted at least two persons who have done exhaustive research on her and got a lot of information about her.
Example, she wasn't blond. She had long, light red-brown hair. The reason why she may have been thought to have been blond is because Harvey described her as 'fair'. This didn't mean fair hair, but fair (pretty) appearance.
She was pretty stout, almost a fatty, too.
The difference between a 'simple' 3D thing and the projected job is that here a certain amount of invention, construction, is unavoidable. That is about the same as fabricating information and must be handled with great care.
I'll wait until maybe more people write their thoughts on this before going further with it.
Have a nice day,
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: Rotter
Wednesday, 17 February 1999 - 01:00 pm | | | This does sound a little creepy, but does enough information exist to recreate the crimes in 3D animation? Along with most of the US I saw the computer simulations of the OJ Simpson crime, and something like that might be useful although it sounds almost pornographic. |
Author: Bob_c
Wednesday, 17 February 1999 - 01:50 pm | | Hi Rotter,
If enough information is available, or can be recreated, for that is doubtful, but not impossible is my answer. I intend,even for Eddowes, no killings animation. That would demand so much invention that the seriosity would suffer.
A 3D picture of Eddowes, with maybe minimum animation like walking, eyes opening and closing, talking etc. are much more possible.
The idea of Kelly is that we have even less idea how she looke like as all the others because of the cruel mutilations. A reconstruction of the face is hardly thinkable, but we could get some idea of body form etc. MAYBE
Regards
Bob |
Author: Caroline
Thursday, 18 February 1999 - 08:06 am | | Hi Bob,
Do we know how many of the victims were on the podgy side? I didn't know Mary Kelly was until I just read your post here. It kind of fits with the 'theme' I'm working on for my Jack.
If I'm right, I may be putting myself out of harm's way. I've shed a stone since Christmas, running up and down stairs between kitchen and study!
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Bob_c
Friday, 19 February 1999 - 07:14 am | | Caution. This post contains descriptions that some people may find objectionable.
Hi Caroline,
I haven't done any deep studies on this matter, but of the famous five, Kelly was the podgey one. Polly Nichols was a little mouse, Eddowes's build can be seen from the photo of her sewn up, Stride was relatively tall and thin (her nickname was 'Long Liz', and maybe 'Lanky Liz'). Chapman is more difficult, but from the information she would have been short and thinish (Undernourished).
You can get an idea of Kelly's body (if you're not squeamish) by looking at the two Kelly photos. Examine the right thigh and upper leg in the bigger photo, then the left thigh and upper leg in the smaller photo.
Now examine the flap of skin and flesh on the table left of the breast (in the photo). That flap contains the flesh of the left upper leg, the left thigh, the external genitals and pubes and the same for the right side.
You will remember my post about putting Kelly visually together again. Take the flap (mentaly at least) and place it back on the pelvic region, placing especially the left upper leg part properly in place. Measure the lengh of the leg, measure the width of the upper leg and view the general appearance of the pelvic becken.
If you can do that digitally, you get an even better idea, albeit a bit ghoulish. Poor Kelly. No one should end up like that. I wonder what her ghost will do to me if it catches me doing that!
At least I would have a lot to ask it.
Love,
Bob |
Author: Caroline
Saturday, 20 February 1999 - 01:39 am | | Yuk, Bob, but I think we get the picture!
I thought Long Liz was so called simply because it was the East End custom for anyone going by the name of Stride. Like Sandell becomes Flip-flop etc etc.
If we start getting on to rhyming slang we'll really have to provide that phrase book for Yaz et al! Do you remember Monty Python's Hungarian phrase book sketch, with the poor Eastern Bloc gentleman saying to the tobacconist, 'my hovercraft is full of eels'?
Love,
Caroline |
Author: The Viper
Saturday, 20 February 1999 - 05:41 am | | Hello Bob,
Your description of Annie Chapman would seem to be at odds with those we have of her. Take Paul Begg's 'Uncensored Facts' for example...
"Annie Chapman was five feet in height, had dark brown wavy hair, blue eyes and a thick nose. She was stout and well proportioned."
Rumbelow says, "Now Annie was about 45 years old and a stout, well-proportioned woman; she was described as one who had seen better days. She was a small woman, only five feet tall, with dark wavy hair, blue eyes, a large thick nose and two teeth missing from her bottom jaw".
I don't know what sources these authors used, but their descriptions are very similar. Pictures of Chapman in the "Illustrated Police News" do seem to tally with the description. However those illustrations should not be trusted too far; Stride's family could probably haved sued IPN for the pictures of her! I believe that those pictures, which were constructed hastily from carved wood blocks, go a long way to explaining why there is a stereotyped view that all JTR's victims were hideous, broken down hags. That image simply isn't true in some cases.
I'm not sure about Mary Kelly either. Descriptions of her range from "pleasant little woman" to telling us that she was 5' 7" That would be tall for a woman in those days. Similarly we can choose whether her hair colour was black, blonde or ginger. In the aftermath of her death it seems clear that people who claimed to know Kelly didn't really know her at all. Either they thought they knew her, but confused her with somebody else or they fabricated stories to make a bit of money from the pack of press hounds.
Regards, V |
Author: Bob_c
Saturday, 20 February 1999 - 11:37 am | | Hi Caroline, Hi Viper,
First Viper.
As you say, Annie Chapman was always stated as being 5 feet tall and stout, with a thick nose and unpreposing appearance. Normally I'd have written that, but in more recent times I've also realised that so much written about Jack is either humbug or just plain false, I've decided to attempt a Sugden approach i.e. to try to establish from original sources. Time, money, knowledge prevents me from doing things like Phil Sugden or our long suffering Paul Begg, but I have started to try.
Of course I don't pooh-pooh everything that has been written, but surprisingly and just for example, Phil Sugden has made a number of now believed errors, and I have, for example, a lot more hopefully correct information over MJK as he has written in his book. I don't claim to have done the research myself, but as example a certain Lady has done a lot of really serious, hard, fact-finding work and has given me the details and references (and others too). I thank this Lady again and will name her, with her permission, when I am satisfied with my own work and have concluded it.
To come back to Chapman then, indeed she was stated as being stout. What gives us a bit of an insight into her real condition is that she was found not only to be seriously ill at the time of her death, but undernourished. Now I realise the difference between a thin, nourished person and someone who has a stout body and is medically undernourished, but Chapman was deadly ill and undernourished. I therefore must assume that she did not have the body that she once had, and while admitting that 'with Chapman it is a bit more difficult' that could mean that she was 'thinnish' (at least compared to her previous condition and for her body build. Naturally I can be wrong.
Best regards,
Bob
Caroline my dear,
As you have read above, what I have written previously may not be true, could be true. Each Lady has been reported as being:
Polly Nichols 5feet 2 ins aged 44 Small, delicate features.
Annie Chapman 5 feet aged 45 Stout (But at time of death undernourished/ill)
Liz Stride 5feet 5 ins aged 45 Slim build (appeared bigger as she was)
Cath Eddowes 5 feet aged 46 Middle build (as in Photo)
Mary Kelly 5feet 7 ins aged 24* Rather tall but stout
*Mary Jane Kelly was almost certainly the Mary Kelly born on 19th April 1864 in Ireland, Union of Crom.
The above sizes may have more or less estimated. Of course, to estimate some one's size without measuring can be surprisingly difficult. I am 1 meter 77 cm tall (short) but I have a broad chest (108 cm circ.) for my height ( I'm keeping quiet about other parts) and am therefore always estimated to be much smaller. I've ripped a new jacket all down the back at Burtons because the man, sneering at my stating what size I took, gave me one much too small (His motto: I know silly buggers like you, I'M the expert.).
I couldn't resist it.
Love,
Bob |
Author: Ashling
Saturday, 20 February 1999 - 11:31 pm | | BOB, CAROLINE, EDANA, ROTTER, VIPER --- Hi all! I understood the varied descriptions of Annie Chapman to mean she was stout & malnourished, instead of undernourished. I visualized a diet of few fruits or green veggies, but lots of bread and whatever else was cheap. Bread & pastries can fatten you up, without providing all the vitamins & minerals needed to fight infections & diseases.
Can you tell I've been dieting lately? : )
Is this explanation probable or just possible?
Hey BOB --- Thanks for clarity on Mary Kelly's hair color. BTW, how common was hair bleaching or dyeing among 19th century prostitutes?
Take care,
Ashling |
Author: Bob_c
Sunday, 21 February 1999 - 07:46 am | | Hi Ashling,
I know that my Grandmother, who was a natural so-called ash-blond, told us kids that she dyed her hair black because at that time (ca. 1890) it was fashionable to be either very dark or very blond to white.
Wigs were also used, Granny had two. What a pity that I didn't keep them. The Ladies must have spent a lot of time in front of dressing table mirrors in those days! I remember the quality of the old clothes and furs she had, and how they looked like, of course without dating them. (I can remember the smell of mothballs too.)
There isn't any record about MJK having dyed her hair though.
Regards
Bob |
Author: Caroline
Sunday, 21 February 1999 - 07:52 am | | Hi Bob,
Did Burton Man say "Suit you sir"? You should have asked for a blank stare, as we do in the DIY shops. That way you always get what you ask for!
Ta for all the vital statistics. I was Polly a year ago and Cath in 2000, please God. (Not the whump chop bit yet awhile I trust. Little Caz needs me a bit longer, she has just finished her first complete story, 91 pages, which I will read as soon as she decides to let me.)
Love and stuff,
Caroline |
Author: Bob_c
Sunday, 21 February 1999 - 09:03 am | | Hi Caroline,
No, Burton man said ..'Oh fuc-ahem!.. Sorry Sir' and got the right size. I get blank stares without asking for'em anyway.
I used to ask for half a pound of elbow grease.
I won't destroy any illusions that you may have over my male figure, but there's a lot of beer in Germany. I used to lust after tall, slim blonds, of course always getting little fat brunettes. Now I fancy medium to fat brunettes (cuddly) and my 'Lebensabschnittsgefährtin' is.......
1 meter 80 ..
...and .....
genuine blond.
A true story about blonds.
Lisa, the above described Lady, drove her car through a small village here in Germany. She was overtaken by a police car, on the back of which was an illuminated sign 'Polizei Bitte Anhalten'. (Police Please Stop) The police turned into an entrance and Lisa drove gaily on.
The police car overtook her again and this time stopped her per hand signal. After checking her out as O.K., one copper from the two asked her why she didn't stop the first time, if she hadn't seen the sign.
Lisa's reply.... "Of course I saw the sign, but I'm not the police."
I wonder what the two thought about as they drove home. Probably deep in thought.
Love,
Bob
ps. what stuff? |
Author: The Viper
Sunday, 21 February 1999 - 11:32 am | | Hello Bob and Ashling. And congrats, this has developed into yet another good topic we have at the moment.
Yes I think your point about being malnourished rather than undernourished is a good one, Ashling.
Bob, I think for the purposes of this exercise you need to establish where the description of Chapman came from. Unless you can show that the records used to describe Chapman were from some time earlier, (say court or workhouse records), as opposed to a description of her dead body, then think you should go with the one we have. Alternatively you could search for some new and reliable source. Incidentally, is there any reason why you question Chapman’s description and not the others?
Relating to your opening posting on this topic, I don’t see anything wrong with constructing images of the victims, any more than any other figure connected to the case, or indeed any other figure from history. But apart from being an interesting project, I’m not sure what benefits accrue.
Given the use of photofit / identikit images used by police forces over the years, it’s a bit surprising that nobody has tried something like this before. (Or have they?). Using the photographs and descriptions at our disposal, I suspect that modern technology could give us some pretty good likenesses.
Regards, V |
Author: Bob_c
Sunday, 21 February 1999 - 01:22 pm | | Hi Viper,
I have taken the general description of the state of Annie Chapman's body in this respect from the post mortem report. It states that there was 'no appearance of the deceased taking alcohol, but there were signs of great deprivation and he should say she had been badly fed.' I can't believe therefor that she appeared fat, or even stout, to the examiner. I accept the difference between badly nourished and undernourished, but I feel here, with the word deprivation being used, that she must have been undernourished. I have not been able to find any original evidence anywhere that PROVES that Chapman was stout, but almost all sources dealing with her claim that she was and I just go along with that, risky as it may be.
With my 'Phil Sugden approach' idea proving very difficult, I do find myself going a bit too far some times. I am therefor grateful for critic. As you see, however, it does raise points that may require recapitulation, and that is one of the points of the board.
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: Caroline
Sunday, 21 February 1999 - 06:42 pm | | Hi Bob,
No dumb blonde, that Lisa.
I have reddish-blonde locks myself, but as I leave driving to the non-green brigade, I've never been caught by the fuzz for a motoring offence either.
Sorry, Viper, for straying off topic.
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Bob_c
Monday, 22 February 1999 - 03:25 am | | Hi Caroline,
The bastards got me once, for doing 44 mph where 40 was allowed, nights at 2 am direction M4 after Knightsbridge. I got a 20 quid fine for it at a time when a fiver was a lot. I could have smacked the magistrate's face in, pompous ass. No one can tell me why I got treated so hard then, but I've never forgotten it and thirst for revenge even today.
Love, Bob
Hi Viper,
About the image idea. As I thought about this method ca. 1978, as far as I know no one else had had such an idea then. Computers were a completely different thing then, however. I assume that some one else , somewhere else, has done it by now.
I am training at the moment, so the results will be available later, assuming them to be of value.
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: Christopher-Michael
Monday, 22 February 1999 - 03:30 pm | | I am intrigued by this idea, but Bob asked at the beginning if the idea of a simulacrum of Catharine Eddowes was morally responsible or irreverent. I'd replied to this yesterday, but my computer froze up and my trenchant thoughts vanished into the aether. So, having had a day to think about it (and with some Bantock in the background to soothe my addled brain), I'll try again.
Other than proving it can be done, I wonder what the use of a virtual Eddowes (or, indeed, virtual any of the canonical five) would be. As a Ripper "purist," I would say that no words could be put into her mouth other than those attested by John Kelly or PC Hutt or the other few witnesses whose testimony has come down to us; that is to say, I wouldn't like to see her used as a guide to Whitechapel or someone who would interact with us on the life of an East End prostitute. You could dress up an actress for that. Using the remains of Eddowes for that sort of interactive entertainment leaves me with a queasy necrophiliac feeling.
And if the idea was to recreate her murder, I don't see how you can do that either. We would leave her stumbling out of Bishopsgate police station saying "good night, old ••••," (shh!) watch her go off, see her a while later as she was seen outside Mitre Square and then see her after the Ripper murdered her. Anything else would be pure conjecture. The same with Stride, whose last moments seem to be better documented; we could see her being attacked outside Dutfield's Yard, but once Schwartz scurries away, we cannot turn around and watch what happened behind his back.
So if the idea were to use the virtual Eddowes as part of (say) an accompanying CD-ROM to a book on the murders, then I could only assent to it with the restrictions above. And I believe I feel this way because what Bob is proposing is no less than a resurrection of Catharine Eddowes, and I must confess to feeling very awkward about it. If you hired Minnie Driver to portray her in the CD-ROM and put words in her mouth, then that's fine, because you are paying a modern actress to recreate someone's life as it has come down to us. But to restore animation to a mortuary photograph, to make the dead flesh colour and breathe and move again. . .it makes my own flesh creep, and I am reminded of a comment made when a famous writer (sorry, I forget whom) first encountered a Lumiere brothers short; that now people could be preserved forever in a sort of living death long after their corporeal forms had decayed.
I shouldn't wish to throw a damper on this project, as I know anyone from these boards involved in it is not out to desecrate the memory of the Ripper women. But Bob did ask for an opinion, and so I give you mine, for what little it's worth.
So you used to lust after tall, slim blondes, eh, Bob? Should have moved to Sweden, then, laddie. Now, myself I have always gone wibbly over tall, icily aristocratic redheads, yet the sad truth is a woman could probably look like Robert Maxwell in drag, but as long as she had an English accent, I'd be her slave. Strange what animates the animal passions, innit?
As ever,
Christopher-Michael |
Author: D. Radka
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 12:00 am | | I agree with C-M. He has, I think, found a way to say something here in an indirect and gentlemanly way that has borne saying since talk of virtual reality began on these boards some weeks ago.
In the mind of the general public, virtual reality adds a wealth of possibilities. You can experience things in an interactive, three-dimensional way, and become a part of the surroundings. This is probably 99% window dressing, however, at least as far as recreating actual people and past events is concerned. How would we know we were programming the virtual Catherine to behave in the way she actually was? How do we know exactly what streets, people, or whatever she encountered from the lockup to Mitre Square? Wouldn't we be guessing and surmising so much that all we would be doing is making a circle, justifying our own prejudices? I think this is disrespectful to the dead--to make them stand up, walk and talk the way we think they should, like puppets. I don't want the medium to be the message concerning the Whitechapel murders.
David |
Author: Ashling
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 02:12 am | | BOB, C.-M. & DAVID R. --- hi. I don't know what everyone intends, but some on the earlier Virtual Bodies board stated hopes of studying the wounds ... possibly uncovering further clues.
Personally, I think a virtual Whitechapel would be useful in many ways ... Don't think I got the stomach for resurrecting the victims though.
Take care,
Ashling |
Author: Bob_c
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 03:26 am | | HI all,
Just a quicky, I am waiting for the transport to Dusseldorf.
CM, I have lived in Sweden (Vasteras and Ludvika)for years, and speak swedish fluently, if now rusty. I found that many of the swedish girls were dark. Many 'Blond Swedes' were in fact finnish girls living there, as was mine (well, a bit blond).
About the virtual reality. Indeed I was fully aware of the problems, that is, of course, why I raised the topic. I myself don't project any sort of historic living images, at most an idea of how they passed into the landscape.
More important is the possibility, also virtual, of simulating attacks on, let's say. Eddowes. We know a lot about her wounds and other things about her. You can simulate backwards, changing some modus, until for-and after seems to be acceptable.
I wanted to write more but the transport is here, Cheerio 'til next week
Best regards,
Bob |
Author: Caroline
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 08:22 am | | Keep working on this one chaps and chapesses,
If I can come up with a more complete scenario for each murder, we could use virtual reality or real live actresses to great effect (I prefer the latter myself), producing something with such exquisite good taste that no one can accuse anyone of glorifying in blood and guts, and hopefully the audiences will emerge, moved to something beyond tears.
I have a terrible feeling that we may have to find players for the 'parts' of some more poor souls, including Francis Coles, Alice McKenzie, and even tragic Emma Smith. Her name sounds a bit like 'Amersmiff, and here comes another of my nausea moments, as I post this 'live'. Didn't someone encounter a Mrs Hamersmith fictitiously in Liverpool around the same time? Oh shi*!
(Moments like these usually come around 2am, sorry all.)
Oh, and CM, Robert Maxwell in drag eh? Smacks of queasy necr-Ophelia to me. Could be worse, though. You could get stuck with Max Wall in drag. Pass me the bucket, someone.....ugggggh!
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Edana
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 09:23 am | | The reason why I think a virtual Whitechapel would be helpful is that I am a visual person and things become clearer to me when I can see them. The thought of resurrecting any of the victims, just to murderously attack them again, fills me with horror, but then so does a lot of things about this subject. A virtual Eddowes would exist as an image like that of the poor woman's mortuary photos, for better or worse. Clearly, I am in two minds about this subject (a true Gemini), but my 'yes' list is longer than my 'no' list.
Caroline...Stephen Fry as the judge! I could kiss you! I adore Stephen Fry, the big cuddlybear! He absolutely ruled as Oscar in 'Wilde'!
Edana |
Author: Caroline
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 10:43 am | | Hi Edana,
Have you read Fry's autobiography yet? I reached page 72 of the paperback thismorning over egg on toast and a large mug of rosy lee in town, after dropping Little Caz off to school.
I want to be that pony called Winnie!!
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Julian
Tuesday, 23 February 1999 - 07:04 pm | | G'day everyone,
A blonde walks into a hairdressers with a walkman plugged into her ears and asks for a haircut. The hairdresser says yep, no probs, but you have to take the walkman out first. "I can't" says the blonde "I'll die". "Geez" says the hairdresser "you're gunna make this hard". Anyway he gives her a shampoo, being careful not to touch the walkman, but when he comes to giving her a haircut he says "listen lady, if you want me to give you a good haircut you simply must take those walkmans out" "I can't" says the blonde "I"ll die if I take them out" "OK" says the hairdresser "It's your hair". So with much dexterity and agility the hairdresser goes to work. After about two hours, and feeling quite proud of himself, he shows the blonde to the mirror ans asks her what she thinks, "Oh, that's really nice" says the blonde" "Excellent" says the hairdresser, and with a flourish procedes to dust the cut hair from the blonde's neck and shoulders. Unfortunately in the process he knocks the walkmans out of the blonds ears and she falls off the chair onto the ground, dead. "Bloody hell!" says the hairdresser, and starts to give the blonde CPR and mouth to mouth and everything else he can think of while he gets his assistant to call for an ambulance.
After about 20 mins the ambulance arrives and after a quick examination proclaim the blonde dead. The ambulance blokes bag her up, toss her in the back of the van and nick off. The hairdresser is contemplating shutting up shop for the day and going down the pub when he notices the walkmans lying on the floor. "I wonder what was so important about these things" he says to himself, and so doing he picks them up and puts them in his ear. "Breathe in....Breathe out,....Breathe in....Breathe out"
Yeah I reckon the photos would be a help, our modern day forensic people might be able to make more out of them than we can.
Have any recent coroners made comment about the autopsy reports? Like offered their opinions on how long the mutilations would have taken, what sort of knife was used etc.
Jules |
Author: Caroline
Wednesday, 24 February 1999 - 03:24 am | | Hi Jules,
Heard it.
I've got a whole list of dumb blonde jokes but most of them are unprintable.
Here's one I can tell:
Q. Why do blondes have more fun?
A. They are easier to keep amused.
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Edana
Wednesday, 24 February 1999 - 08:53 am | | Caroline, I have not read Fry's autobiography yet. I didn't know he wrote one! I will seek it out for sure. His writing is unique and I admire it even while I'm trying to control the hysterical laughter it induces. Oh, and its too bad Jeeves isn't around, he could solve this Ripper conundrum for us, with a delicate lifting of one eyebrow and a tone of voice that says 'Hmmm, that was simple, now I think I'll go polish the silver.'
Edana |
Author: Caroline
Wednesday, 24 February 1999 - 09:50 am | | Hi Edana,
What's polishing? I'm slowly going down the Quentin Crisp path to his little abode called NODUSTIN.
I'd like a blue plaque to stick up somewhere, though. I might be coaxed into dusting that!
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Caroline
Wednesday, 24 February 1999 - 09:51 am | | Hi Edana,
What's polishing? I'm slowly going down the Quentin Crisp path to his little abode called NODUSTIN.
I'd like a blue plaque to stick up somewhere, though. I might be coaxed into dusting that!
Love,
Caroline |
Author: Caroline
Wednesday, 24 February 1999 - 09:53 am | | | Darn it, never thought it would happen to me. I'm going for my feather duster, that'll teach me, eh? |
Author: Jill
Thursday, 08 July 1999 - 05:08 am | | Hello Bob, all
As I have done some work on 3D (for example a non-existent but designed aula), I know you have a good testing ground to look for clues in environment. You could test the darkness in the alleys and illumination of the sky and streets ..., following up for example the discussion about killing in the dark (somewhere else on the board). And I don't mean you really have to animate the murder, just the scenery.
The 3D creation of the victims can be as helpfull without being offending. To see someone moving about with living looks helps to see common features between the victims and thus precise a profile. You actually do not need that much photographs to recreate someone. I paint and draw since preppy. The first thing you learn about drawing models or portraits is to look for just the typical stance or most important feature of the face. These combined with the general proportions of the body make the person. You even can go a long way with only a description and good knowledge of basic anatomy (as shown by the wanted posters). The problem with a description, would be your reference. If a wanted poster is drawn it is shown to a witness who can give feedback.
In the case of MJK we don't have that witness avalailable, we don't even have a reliable description. Since the poor woman is mutilated so much it is hard to recognize any feature from the pictures (even if you want to look at it for so long, I know I can't). Without wanting to offend or disgust someone with the sentence following, I know it is possible to draw and eventually model a person in a true way with pictures of the bones (body and face). But I hope for MJK's eternal rest, there are not any pictures of them.
Sorry if I am rambling on and offended someone during this little technical (seemingly unpersonal) post.
Jill |
Author: Laura Harper
Wednesday, 21 July 1999 - 10:51 pm | | Hello, none of you know me... this is the first time I have written a message on these boards, I am an art student and need to know about Bob's work on the Eddowes model for a collection of paintings of Victorian prostitutes I am working on, no messages have been posted on this board for awhile, but if you happen to stop by and read this, please respond. It would be a wonderful oppertunity to paint from "life".
Thank you,
Laura |
Author: Diana Comer
Thursday, 22 July 1999 - 12:59 pm | | | As to whether the ladies in question were stout or not it is well to remember that Victorian ideas about this subject were different. In order to be attractive a lady was expected to be a bit plump. When a Victorian writer used adjectives like "stout" or "undernourished" he probably was starting from a different baseline than we would. |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Sunday, 07 January 2001 - 03:47 am | | hi i'm rebecca
sorry to interrupt the current conversations but i'm looking for information that relates to the beginning of it. what was the living appearance of the victims.
yes i have seen the photos but what i really want to know is what color were the hair and eyes of the five 'official' victims. all information i have is limited and very vague, not definate on any details.
polly nicols is supposed to have had greying brown hair and brown eyes, but i have nothing for annie chapman other than a nickname 'dark annie' which isn't very helpful. liz stride was suppose to have had either red or brown hair, and i found nothing on catherine eddows. as for mary kelly all i could find is the nickname 'black mary' which from the photos probably meant her hair was blacklish and one reference to blue eyes.
all of the above information came from the news paper accounts of the time and as such is suspect.
can anyone give me if not a true description then at least the most agreed on version.
yours sincerely
rebecca |
Author: Simon Owen
Sunday, 07 January 2001 - 06:24 pm | | Rebecca , there is no good picture of Mary Kelly but on another board Grailfinder used imaging techniques to recreate Kelly's face as it might have been on her murder photograph. I have done a picture of how I think Mary Kelly looked , based on what Grailfinder did and I have printed it below. I put the hair a darkish colour as it seems to be brownish in the picture , but others would argue that it is blonde : if you think so , please alter the picture accordingly.
If you can stomach looking at them , the Victims section of the Main Casebook has the mortuary photos of the victims.
Simon
Mary Kelly |
Author: David M. Radka
Sunday, 07 January 2001 - 08:31 pm | | Simon's art makes Mary Jane look much like Lele Sobieski, don't you think?
David |
Author: Rebecca A Bonell
Monday, 08 January 2001 - 02:10 am | | who's lele sobieski?
thank you for the picture simon, but what i actually asked was what color was the five victims hair and eyes.
i'm actually using newspaper illustrations but i need to color them for a project i'm doing. i want to remove all trace of the ripper's mark on them if i can. to do that i need to know their hair and eye color. the colors i can probably get away with faking it, but i would like to get most of the details right.
yes i know the newspaper illustrations are different to the photos, i am in the middle of adjusting them. so if you can supply these details or tell me who would know i would appreciated it.
rebecca |
Author: Joseph
Monday, 08 January 2001 - 06:44 am | | Hello Mr. Owen,
Can you tell me at what thread Grailfinder's recreation of Ms. Kelly's features can be found? |
Author: David M. Radka
Monday, 08 January 2001 - 03:09 pm | | Rebecca,
I should have typed Leelee Sobieski--my mistake. She is a young actress of note; among her recent projects have been a TV serial in which she portrayed Joan of Arc, and Kubric's "Eyes Wide Shut." Just enter the name into a search engine and you'll get hundreds of web sites devoted to her, showing her picture. In my opinion, she'd make a perfect Mary Jane in a movie about the case.
David |
|
|
|
|
