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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Coins near victim
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion:
Coins near victim
Author: stephen borsbey
Friday, 13 October 2000 - 05:02 pm |        | | i have heard that some coins were found near one of the victims. is it true that these were polished farthings made to look like sovereigns in the poor light. |
Author: The Viper
Saturday, 14 October 2000 - 03:57 pm | | Stephen,
Farthings are mentioned in connection with both Annie Chapman and Alice Mackenzie.
In the case of Chapman, there is a certain amount of myth associated with them. Farthings and rings were not arranged around her feet in a pattern as stated in some of the older books and by Royal/masonic conspiritists. The farthings made their appearance in a Daily Telegraph article on 10th September 1888, "There were also found two farthings polished brightly, and, according to some, these coins had been passed off as half-sovereigns upon the deceased by the murderer." However, they weren’t listed among the possessions strewn on the ground from her severed pockets at the inquest.
A farthing was undoubtedly found when the body of Alice Mackenzie was discovered in Castle Alley the following summer. The Times of 19th July 1889, reported Inspector Edmund Reid’s testimony at the inquest as, "…I also found a bronze farthing underneath the clothes of the deceased. There was also blood on the farthing", and later, "In another instance of this kind – the Hanbury-street murder – two similar farthings were found".
Despite Reid’s comments, there must be serious doubt about the presence of farthings at the Hanbury Street murder site. Most modern commentators are of the view that they didn’t exist. Sugden states this unequivocally and offers us a history of the farthings and rings story on pages 110-111 (paperback edition) of his book.
Other people may be able to tell us whether farthings were sufficiently similar in size, weight and edging to be passed off for more valuable coins. Forget the story as printed in the Telegraph though - the very idea that Dark Annie was charging half a sovereign for a knee-trembler in the back yard at Hanbury Street is preposterous.
Apart from being low value coinage, it seems the presence of farthings on the persons of the victims might be explained by their being carried or worn as charms or pendants. Consider this piece from the East London Observer of 10th August 1889, "It may be recollected that beside the mutilated bodies of two of the victims at least was found a farthing. If the pockets of women of this class were examined it would probably be found that a very large majority of them contained a similar coin, some defaced by a hole bored through the centre. The coin, in the opinion of these women, brings them luck; and just as a cabman, on the receipt of his fare will expectorate upon it, so these outcasts, on issuing from their lodgings for the nightly prowling of the streets, may be seen to take out their coins and spit upon them ‘for luck,’ as they say."
Regards, V. |
Author: Jon
Saturday, 14 October 2000 - 05:41 pm | | Look this farthing business is easily explained...
When the backyard was cordened off by police the onlookers were hanging out of the upstairs windows, watching the investigation.
One geezer shouts across to another .."OY, can you see what they're looking at?"
His mate shouts back, "Nah, if I were closer....., but up 'ere, its too far Vince".
The birth of a rumour.....
Jon
(Honest)
:-) |
Author: David M. Radka
Saturday, 14 October 2000 - 09:35 pm | | The "farthings," if they ever existed (and they probably didn't) mean nothing. But the positioning of the personal items near Dark Annie's feet--ah, there's the rub!
David |
Author: stephen borsbey
Sunday, 15 October 2000 - 05:02 am | | thank you all for those replies.esp,viper. i am a coin collector so it was of interest.the half-sov. is of very similar size to farthings
hard to imagine giving 10 bob to a prossy and asking for change for 4d .today though i can imagine the police testing the coins for fingerprints and DNA... |
Author: Scott E. Medine
Monday, 08 October 2001 - 12:28 pm | | The curious thing, as Mr. Radka has stated, is the arranging of other items at Ms. Chapman's feet. The neat arrangement of the other items would indicate a very, very strong possibility that the perp may have been instutionalized some time in the recent past.
In some schizophrenics, it has been noted, they will arrange certain items in a certain order as only they see fit. It has been theorized that this their way of keeping order in their little part of the world. Some may only arrange certain items, i.e. coins, and leave other items in total disarray. It is a compulsion that they cannot fight. Part of establishing the mental stability of a perp at a crime scene, for use in a profile, is looking for certain clues such as this.
Certain studies have also indicated that some schizophrenics who may have military service or may have been incarcerated will have an even more stronger tendency to arrange certain items or items in general in order. |
Author: Rosemary O'Ryan
Monday, 08 October 2001 - 09:29 pm | | Dear Scott,
Can you remind us what these "items" were?
Rosey:-) |
Author: Tom Wescott
Monday, 08 October 2001 - 10:49 pm | | A piece of coarse muslin, a small hand comb in a paper sheath, and a portion of envelope with two pills in it. The coins are a fairy tale.
Tom Wescott |
Author: Harry Mann
Tuesday, 09 October 2001 - 06:03 am | | Perhaps the killer was seeking money given her to entice her into the back yard.
If you take objects from the pockets of a person,and have no intention of keeping same,it seems that placing them on the ground is a logical thing to do,especially if that person is lying there dead.
The appearance of arrangement,might just be coincidental. |
Author: Monty
Tuesday, 09 October 2001 - 08:46 am | | Scott,
That's a very interesting summarization.
Harry,
If he was searching for money he had given her then I feel that,after a quick look amongst her objects,he would toss them aside.For me, that would be the logical thing to do.
Regards
Monty
 |
Author: Harry Mann
Wednesday, 10 October 2001 - 05:02 am | | Monty,
Toss them aside,place them on the ground.Its a 50/50 chance.
regards,Harry. |
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