Author: Julian
Wednesday, 24 March 1999 - 12:30 am |        |
G'day Cindy,
Whose following who? I think we might be the only ones awake.
As for the Juwes thing I think it might have been put there to stir resentment up against the Jews, that's why Abberline removed it before the local population arose.
As I understand it, there was a fair bit of resentment toward these people in the East End. Poor bastards cop •••• wherever they go.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that Jack dropped the piece of apron on his way away from the scene. But another question arises, Why did he clean his knife on it? He'd never done this (as far as we know) with any of his other victims.
Jules |
Author: Cindy L.
Wednesday, 24 March 1999 - 10:43 pm | |
Jules,
Now you've got me thinking about why he would have cleaned his knife on a piece of the victim's apron. The first thing that popped into my head was "there was nothing else available". Too simple right? And, what did he clean his knife on with the others? His hankerchief maybe? Wiped it on his shirt sleeve?
Cindy L. |
Author: Edana
Thursday, 25 March 1999 - 09:13 am | |
Did he wipe his knife on the victim's clothing? Are there any reports of 'wipe' marks anywhere? Maybe he used the apron because he was disgusted with the feces. I don't think the blood bothered him at all...he probably considered blood to be clean. He probably just stuck the bloody knife in his pocket (or wherever) without wiping it. Perhaps its an indication that he wasn't someone who worked with and appreciated knives. Blood is not a good thing to let dry on a good knife. In the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), you must always ask permission to touch someone's blade, and if you do, you carefully hold it by the hilt. Any bodily fluids, including the oils from the fingertips will pit the blade if the blade is not cleaned and oiled poste haste.
Edana |
Author: Geoffrey
Thursday, 25 March 1999 - 10:03 am | |
In reading the recently added article by Daryl Cozart, "Jack the Ripper: Turning a Modern Eye Toward a Old Investigation," I came across an interesting suggestion. He asserts that the "bloody apron" found in Goulston Street may have been stained not only with Catherine's blood, but with the killer's as well. According to Cozart, it is not uncommon for a killer to accidentally cut himself when involved in a frenzied knife attack (it happened to OJ). It makes sense: the Ripper is bleeding heavily after knicking himself with the knife, he rips a piece of Eddowes's apron to stop the bloodflow (which could seriously incriminate him), and he tosses it into Goulston Street.
I doubt if much can be learned from this, but it is an interesting new twist, is it not? I've not heard it suggested before. |
Author: adam w
Friday, 26 March 1999 - 05:42 am | |
How about Jack wrapping Eddowes' kidney in the scrap of apron? This could equally account for the blood and faeces stains.
Just a thought.
Adam |
Author: geoffrey
Friday, 26 March 1999 - 02:43 pm | |
Hi Adam,
An interesting idea, but if that was the case, why would he pause to unwrap the kidney? No kidney was found in the area (though Hinton's rats may have taken it away).
It does bring to mind an interesting thought... what the devil did this chap do with these organs? How did he carry them away? Can you easily slip a kidney into a pocket? If not, did he carry a bag or parcel with him? |
Author: Calogridis
Saturday, 27 March 1999 - 12:26 am | |
Howdy All!
Good ideas Cindy, Edana, Adam, and Geoff!! You've illustrated a myriad of possibilities. I tend to take a simplistic view. The Ripper probably used the apron piece to wipe his hands, the knife, and maybe his face of any blood/feces that came in contact with him. Just enough so he would avoid detection in the streets. I also tend to think he was, as most agree, heading home in that direction (Mitre Square towards Goulston Street), although Rumbelow points out the possibility of the Ripper being "crazy like a fox" and then turning around at Goulston Street and heading back directly into the pursuing police who might overlook him since he was heading in the wrong direction?! And I do think he was crazy. Who else would walk around with body parts in his pocket? How would he talk his way out of it if the coppers found him with his gory mementos??? The plot thickens. Keep up the good work!!
Cheers..............Mike |
Author: Cindy L.
Saturday, 27 March 1999 - 12:52 am | |
I like the idea of the piece of apron having the Ripper's blood on it, either his alone or his and hers.
It makes sense to me that in his hasty slicing and dicing, Jack may nicked himself, maybe the opposite hand in which he held the knife. It was dark and I'm assuming that his opposite hand would have been placed on the victim's body near where he was working, maybe as a sort of a "guide by touch" for the knife to follow. He would have had to stop the bleeding somehow.
Bloody hands can be wiped or washed relatively quickly, and bloody clothes could be covered up with a topcoat, or something similar, as he left the scene to be discarded later; but a fresh bleeding cut would have first been very suspicious, two been hard to hide, and three had the possibility of leaving evidence, i.e., finger or hand prints.
Pertaining to the third possibility, I'm not sure where the science of fingerprinting was in development at this time, maybe someone could help me out there.
I'm looking forward to hearing everyone else's thoughts on this.
Have a great day/night (depending on where in the world you are).
Cindy |
Author: Calogridis
Saturday, 27 March 1999 - 01:21 am | |
Cindy,
Fingerprinting wouldn't be recognized for another twenty years, although the Victorians considered it in the Ripper's day. The Victorian police were criticized for not taking any innovative action such as you suggest. And of course it would be another ninety years before DNA testing. The Ripper may have cut himself, but it probably wouldn't have incriminated him too much. Cheers......Mike |
Author: adam
Monday, 29 March 1999 - 05:28 am | |
Hi Geoffrey
You're right in saying no kidney was found in the area - it seems likely that it was posted to George Lusk with the From Hell letter.
I could easily imagine the Ripper slicing off a portion of Catharine's apron to wrap the recently-detached kidney in, thus avoiding getting his clothes too bloodsoaked, then discarding the cloth in Goulston Street once he was some distance from Mitre Square.
Apart from wanting to view his 'trophy', I can't think of a reason for not waiting until he was safe behind a closed door.
As I said, it was only a suggestion!
Adam |
Author: Julian
Monday, 29 March 1999 - 09:27 pm | |
G'day everyone,
Good thought Adan, a bit like buying a case of VB stubbies and not being able to get home without tasting one.
Jules |
Author: Laura-A
Wednesday, 02 June 1999 - 02:33 pm | |
hello,
I recently went to madame Tussaud's in London, and in the Chamber of Horrors there is actually a wax model of Catherine Eddows. It is a very good one. There is a metal fence, then behind that is the wax model of her dead body, after it has been 'ripped' by him, in the background is what looks like a park or row of houses. I thought that was one of the best models in the whole wax works. If you get a chance to go to Madame Tussaud's then don't by pass the chamber of horrors. |
Author: Karen Cahill
Thursday, 08 July 1999 - 06:34 pm | |
Hello all:
I am new to the message board and have been trying to catch up on all the current missives. It will take me some time to do this,meanwhile, I have to know what all of you think of this; in the list of Catharine Eddows possesions there is listed:1 red leather cigarette case with gold fittings. I think that this did not belong to Catharine,it's too expensive of an item, she would of pawned it. Could this be the only clue left by Jack? For those of you that attended the Norwich meeting last year I presented a paper on the subject, but I did'nt get any feedback. So what do you all think? |
Author: Jon Smyth
Thursday, 08 July 1999 - 07:00 pm | |
Karen
Welcome to the message boards.
The item to which you refer is listed as:
'1 Red Leather Cigarette case, white metal fittings'
I've seen some shabby leather articles in my time, but in this case, what is the white metal?
Gold, Silver or Aluminium?
The description is hardly fine enough to determine whether it is too grand an item to have been in her possession.
Also in her possessions was a piece of Red Gauze silk, 'found on neck' ..a silk scarf maybe.
Red silk might be said to be too grand also, but where does this lead us?
I'm sorry I have not read or heard your presentation.
We can hardly make judgements with such fleeting descriptions of articles, these could all have been well worn and battered, shabby items.
Hard to know what to say, sorry.
All the best, Jon |
Author: D. Radka
Friday, 09 July 1999 - 10:18 am | |
The cigarette case was inside of Catherine's multi-tiered garment system. The Ripper would have had to figure out the twists and turns of Kate's clothes and insert it into a pocket somewhere to get it where it was, along with the package of Do-Do-Do Sugar. Very unlikely.
David
PS Can anyone fathom what Do-Do-Do Sugar was? |
Author: Stephen P. Ryder
Friday, 09 July 1999 - 10:21 am | |
| I've always read "Do-Do-Do" as "ditto" marks, as I've seen the same done in many pre-20th century records. |
Author: Jon Smyth
Friday, 09 July 1999 - 10:25 am | |
Exactly Stephen.
'1 tin box containing Tea'
' ditto ditto ditto Sugar'
(1 tin box containing Sugar)
Jon |
Author: Yazoo
Monday, 26 July 1999 - 06:12 am | |
To Bob Hinton (and others):
Sorry if I missed this info under some other topic, but have you any further info on Eddowes and whether she was involved in prostitution? Is there still no police record or private reminiscence on Eddowes' alleged prostitution?
I'm afraid I minimized your original announcement of having found no records on Eddowes as far as prostitution goes, Bob. It's one of the more forceful ideas that I've come across here, and I never should have tried to wheedle my way around it.
And if something has come to light casting Eddowes as a full-time or occasional prostitute, I apologize to one and all for re-introducing the topic.
If your research still holds true, I suggest this finding be written up as a Casebook dissertation, Bob...if you feel so inclined (and Stephen has no objection). Your announcement haunts me still as it has some pretty startling implications (not necessarily that Eddowes knew JtR, but that is a more valid hypothesis if she was not a prostitute)! You can work out the implications in the dissertation, Bob, and I can stop equivocating until I read it.
Yaz |
Author: Julian
Sunday, 01 August 1999 - 10:38 pm | |
G'day Yaz, everyone.
Just with the uncertainty of Catharines supposed prostitution I'm also unsure as to her alcohol consumption as well.
From the informatio we have at hand, Catharine was supposedly shunned by her children and others because of her drunkeness, yet the autopsy report states that she had a healthy liver.
Um, the two just don't seem to go hand in hand. Could someone offer an explanation please.
Jules |
Author: Yazoo
Monday, 02 August 1999 - 02:59 am | |
Hey Jules!
You can be an alcoholic without consuming great amounts of alcohol. Drunkeness depends on your tolerance for the stuff. One ordinary glass of alcohol is enough to make some people quite drunk.
Alcoholism depends on your frequency of use, your dependence on alcohol. There are no hard and fast rules of frequency of alcohol use to help define an alcoholic.
But this character trait bothers me less by its supposed absence than does the lack of the occupational hazards of being a prostitute. If Eddowes was not soliciting, then how did she meet her killer, why is she in a different occupational class than the other victims -- what does all that signify about JtR's choice of victims?
Before we jump the gun, I'd like to see the position and evidence (or lack thereof) stated briefly and succinctly; then test that evidence (or lack thereof). Tradition may be wrong about Eddowes' occupation on her last night, but I'd like to be as sure as we can before proceeding on what may be another erroneous conclusion.
Yaz |
