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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **

Archive through March 23, 2000

Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: General Discussion: Mary kelly: Archive through March 23, 2000
Author: lee donovan
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 02:02 am
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Morning

How can someone be so brutal and horrible and kill these women and then said to be so intellectual. Anyone who kills like JTR did in my mind would not be called intellectual.

What does everyone else think?

Cheers Lee

Author: Christopher T. George
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 07:16 am
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Hi, Lee:

We are not necessarily saying that Jack the Ripper was an intellectual. No one knows what was the Whitechapel murderer's intellectual capacity, or lack thereof, since we do not know who he was. We were merely discussing whether Mary Jane Kelly was able to read, and the fact that because Joe Barnett read the newspapers to her did not mean that she could not read.

Chris George

Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 08:00 am
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From what I know of their relationship , I would suggest Mary was more of the dominant partner than Joe , however she would probably defer to him in matters of ' the world ' as Chris George suggests. The 1870 and 1889 Education Acts did however lead to greater female literacy and to women wanting to know more about the world , and I imagine both sexes would have read ' The Illustrated Police News ' and the ' Police Gazette ' as well as the ' News of the World ' on a Sunday while having a lie-in in bed. The use of illustrations and sensational stories was intended , in part , to attract a female readership: the broadsheet papers ( Times , Telegraph etc ) were definitely still for a male readership however.

Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 08:04 am
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Lee , maybe JTR killed the women in such a horrible way to disguise the fact that he was EXTREMELY clever and cunning , perhaps he wanted to be thought of as a madman or a maniac. Just a thought.

Author: lee donovan
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 08:19 am
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Christopher its Lee

I was talking about Mary Kellys intelect I was Just stating that a man who can kill without remorse and kill so sadistically could not really be that intellectual, Could he?

Cheers Lee

Author: Leanne Perry
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 09:46 am
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G'day!

Bruce Paley says that in schools: 'Girls were taught mainly domestic skills, while boys were basically schooled in the three 'R's'.

Joseph's brother Daniel, saw to it that Joseph and John continued to attend school (they were orphans remember). The fact that Joseph finished school, yet had to work as a labourer to help support himself, his brothers and sister in a poor economic environment, would have add to his frustration.

About Kelly's education, Paley says: 'Kelly received some formal education'. As the source of this information, he says: 'According to her friend Maria Harvey, Kelly's education was 'much superior to that of most persons in her position in life'.

Leanne!

Author: Michael B. Bruneio
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 09:51 am
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Lee,

A killer's savagery and his intellect are NOT mutually exclusive. If the evolution of serial killers has taught us anything, it's that they are, for the most part, even MORE intelligent than average. Take Ted Bundy, for example.

Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 09:54 am
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I wonder if a woman would read either the IPN or PG, as both (the PG somewhat more) were rather quasi-pornographic in tone, and thus favourite men's reading material. Not that it could not happen - and in any event, we have learned that "Victorian prudery" was not nearly as all-pervasive as we once believed. I merely wonder. I imagine that were MJK to spend her pennies on anything other than drink, it might be on "Tit-Bits," which was specifically designed for those to whom reading was a new or difficult skill.

I have never before given any consideration to whether or not the Ripper victims were literate, though considering their circumstances, they probably were. Certainly Mary Nichols could write, and as Kate Eddowes used to sell chapbooks with Thomas Conway, we might reasonably assume she could read and/or write. If Elizabeth Stride's story of keeping a coffee stall is correct, it would presume some ability to figure on her part. They were highly unlikely to have any books on them by the times of their death, however, as where would they keep them so as not to be stolen? The absence of books in Mary Kelly's flat proves nothing; like many people I know, she might have been literate, but simply didn't like to read - which explains the miserable shape the US is in.

As for the intellectual capacities of the bobby on the beat, David, I am afraid I could not tell you. They were probably like most of us; some intelligent, some not so, some merely plodding along. Not much changes in 111 years.

Lee - it all depends on your definition of "intellectual." Ted Bundy was a cold sadist, but he was gifted with a remarkable intellect, and in fact might have been able to beat his murder conviction had he only kept his mouth shut during his trial. Peter Sutcliffe seems to have been your regular dull sort, but Dennis Nilsen had a talent for introspective (almost poetic) prose.

CMD

Author: Leanne Perry
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 10:13 am
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G'day Rabbi,

I just read your post of Monday, March 20, for the first time, about Hutchinson being the other "Joe".

Maria Venturney said that Kelly was 'instead fond of another man named Joe'.
Paley takes it that she was referring to Joseph Flemming, who was Kelly's former lover.

Venturney had never met Flemming, who continued to visit her and give her money. This would create further frustration for Barnett.

Leanne!

Author: Ivor Q. U. Estion
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 11:04 am
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I was not aware that anyone but the police read the Police Gazette as it was an internal and confidential police publication?

Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 11:42 am
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Policemen's wives ?

Author: Simon Owen
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 11:44 am
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By the way , good point Leanne about Mary's education : I'd forgotten that quote !

Author: Christopher T. George
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 01:30 pm
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Hi Lee:

You wrote:

"I was talking about Mary Kellys intelect I was Just stating that a man who can kill without remorse and kill so sadistically could not really be that intellectual, Could he?"

To answer your question, Melvin Harris makes a good case that Roslyn D'Onston Stephenson, a doctor who served with Garibaldi in Italy and a black magician and journalist, who was certainly an intellectual, could have been Jack the Ripper. The size of a person's intellect does not necessarily correspond to a person's capacity for murder and mayhem.

Chris George

Author: Christopher-Michael DiGrazia
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 05:31 pm
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Ivor -

I have always thought the "Police Gazette" was a publicly-sold tabloidish paper specialising in crime and sex. It most certainly was such in the United States - and was extremely popular in the pre-War years - and I have always assumed the same for its British counterpart. I would appreciate any clarification on this matter.

Author: Diana
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 08:03 pm
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I am currently taking an internet based college course in Special Education and I am currently studying the chapter on Emotional or Behavior Disorders. I quote: The idea that children and youths with emotional or behavioral disorders tend to be particularly bright is a myth. Research clearly shows that the average student with an emotional or behavioral disorder has an IQ in the dull-normal range (around 90) and that relatively few score above the bright-normal range. Compared to the normal distribution of intelligence, more children with emotional or behavioral disorders fall into the ranges of slow-learner and mild mental retardation. Although children with autism are often untestable, those who can be tested are likely to have IQs in the retarded range; the average for these children is about 50. . . Of course, we have been referring to children with emotional or behavioral disorders as a group. Some children who have emotional or behavioral disorders are extremely bright and score very high on intelligence tests. (Exceptional Children by Daniel P. Hallahan and James M. Kauffman, Allyn and Bacon, Boston, London , Toronto, Sydney, Tokyo, Singapore, Copyright 1994 pages 220-221) I think Conan Doyle popularized the idea of the sociopathic genius with his Dr. Moriarty, but Moriarty is fiction. It is uncertain whether disturbed individuals score lower on IQ tests because their intelligence is lower, or because their emotional problems impede their use of the intelligence they have. (If you are upset you can't think straight. If you are perpetually upset you can't ever think straight.) On a practical level the result is the same.

Author: Leanne Perry
Wednesday, 22 March 2000 - 09:40 pm
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G'day Simon,

Here's something for you to think about, mate. It came from the mind of my friend Jim Dipalma:

If you were Mary Kelly, and saw that one by one all of your friends were being brutally murdered, wouldn't you either go to the police or press and tell all, and/or get the hell out of the East End?

And if you were one of the authority figures, trying to protect the throne, would not the best approach have been to quietly round up the women one by one, take them into the countryside, kill them and dispose of the bodies and evidence where they could never be found?

Leanne!

Author: Ivor Q. U. Estion
Thursday, 23 March 2000 - 01:24 am
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Not so in the U.K., the Police Gazette was a confidential police publication.

Author: lee donovan
Thursday, 23 March 2000 - 02:26 am
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Christopher

Thanks for that, i can see what your saying now and as i'm relatively new to the ripper investigation ( although i have followed the story for some years now ) i will keep in mind not to disregard anything when it comes to this case.
Keep me informed of anything else you learn.

Cheers Lee

Author: lee donovan
Thursday, 23 March 2000 - 02:35 am
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Michael,
I can see what your saying, especially with the reference to Ted Bundy, Let me know if you have any other theories.

Cheers Lee

Author: Guy Hatton
Thursday, 23 March 2000 - 04:24 am
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CM -

Rather than being "dull", Sutcliffe is said by most commentators to be of above-average IQ - but not as sharp as Bundy! He was, after all, smart enough to convince a number of psychiatrists that he was a schizophrenic who really had heard the voice of God guiding him on a "mission" to rid the streets of prostitutes.

All the Best

Guy

 
 
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