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** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Frances Coles
Casebook Message Boards: Ripper Victims: Specific Victims:
Frances Coles
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 08:49 am |        | See that bench..Ive just had a Big Mac and fries there..today...hour ago...fecking freezing !!
Had a chat with a Rozzer there, told him he was 114 years too late.
He gave me a nervous smile and walked off.......things aint changed much have they ?
Monty
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Author: Goryboy
Wednesday, 27 February 2002 - 08:56 am | | Monty
Very cool you were just there. I'd LOVE to be there again. Indianapolis cannot hold a farthing taper to London, esp. Whitechapel.
Have you ever hung around the "haunted corner" at night? My tour guide claimed several people have seen Catharine and the monk's earlier victim there, at odd hours of the night.
Have you ever retraced the Ripper's route from Mitre to the doorway in Goulston, where the graffito and apron were found? If so, what's your gut feeling about Jack's destination? Is it possible he was heading to Miller's Court from there? Or is it more likely he was heading in a more east-northeasterly direction?
Can you snap any photos of the other murder sites for us? I haven't been there in years.
All breast,
goryboy
P.S. -- Here's one I took near Goulston, during my last tour. We rounded a corner, I think from Wentworth, and spotted the legs sticking out from the doorway shown in the photo. Thought for sure it was a corpse....turned out to be some bloke fixing his door hinges.
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Author: Monty
Thursday, 28 February 2002 - 03:25 pm | | Gory,
So many questions, so little time.
My work is spilt quite a lot between Leicester and Houndsditch. Im back in Leicester tonight but I shall be in London on sat.
I have indeed walked through the square at night many times. Its my favourite spot to munch a sarnie during the day, quite tranquil but at night, when your on your own (or just a few of you) it does become sinister. Perhaps its because I know the history. If theres any advice I could give you regarding the sites then its to visit them at night in a small group,without the guide. Only if your confident of course but you will see them in a different "light". You get a feel for them.
I believe nothing much has changed regarding both pedestrians and traffic amounts since 1888 so without the handicapp of a crowd its pretty much the same as Jacks time, especially Mitre sq.
His escape route ??
He exits Mitre sq via St james passage and into King st. Goes toward Duke st, crosses its north enterance and passes across Houndsditch into Gravel lane. Down the lane into Ellison St which has a junction with Middlesex St. Turns north into Middlesex st then 1st right and along an alley to Goulston st. North again, dropping off the apron and there..well to be honest he could have gone anywhere.
Looking at where the murders occurred until Eddowes, Id choose a central point .
That, for me, points to End of Wentworth st/Old Montague st. My gut feeling is that home for Jack is there.
The only suspect I know off that lived in that area was Kasminsky
There Gory, you asked my opinion and you certainly got it.
Monty
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Author: Goryboy
Thursday, 28 February 2002 - 05:19 pm | | Thanks, Monty. I appreciate it.
I think you're spot on with Jack's route from Mitre. Is it still possible to follow that route on foot, or have the streets and alleys changed too much?
And what ABOUT that missing key to Mary Kelly's room? Hmmmm....
Ciao for now!
All best,
John |
Author: Monty
Friday, 01 March 2002 - 07:10 am | | John,
Near as damn it, yes its possible. The actual layout of the area has changed little (with the exception of Dorset st as was and the market). Buildings have come and gone but the street layout is hardly touched.
My favourite building is the old Commercial St police station. That, West end of Hanbury st, Wilkes St, Puma Court, Brick lane ect, ect are the areas I like along with Mitre Sq.
Curry houses in Brick lane are fantastic.
Kellys key ??
If he took it then I bet he dumped it in a doorway a la the apron. Its just that no one put any importance to it.
Monty
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Author: Monty
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 07:27 am | | Goryboy,
Just a quickie, off topic (sorry folks, wont happen again).
I did the walk from Mitre sq to Goulston st.
2 mins 48 secs.
I was very late for meeting the other half at Green park.
Me in plenty big trouble.
Your fault !
Conclusion.
Never do a favour for John unless you have the time !
Scolded Monty
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Author: Adseph Joam Fetus-Jacunis
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 06:23 pm | | Dear Monty,
Where abouts is the Commercial St Police Station situated? That is if it is the same one from 1888, where alot of arrested JTR suspects were taken. What is it's address.
Yours Truly,
A. J. Fetus-Jacunis. |
Author: Goryboy
Monday, 04 March 2002 - 06:25 pm | | Monty~
Good Sir Knight,
I appreciate your running the guantlet for me. I only hope your other half wasn't too put out with you. Cor blimey, mate, I know only too well what the Wrath of Kan't can be like.
One more reason to stay single. I can think of a thousand others. But that's another board.
2'48" from Mitre to Goulston, eh? Pretty good clip, too, I'll bet. Oi fink Saucy Jacky may have taken longer, in order to skulk among shadows, dodge other pedestrians, cops and wotnot. He probably took at least 4-5 minutes, wouldn't ye think?
Even so, why did it take so long for the bit of apron to materialize? If he killed Eddowes by 1:44, gets to Goulston by, say, 1:49, why did Halse and the other constable not see the apron bit till 2:50 or so?
There's a great dissertation on Casebook about that. Have you read it? Interesting possibilities, me lad...
Thanks for checking it out for me, Monty. I envy you your stroll.
All best,
Johnny Go Lightly |
Author: Monty
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 07:46 am | | Gory,
A STROLL ???? I was shagged.
I took the most direct route at a fairly brisk pace simply because I feel that Jack would have done the same.
I was very surprised on how quick I arrived there. I didnt expect it. I did it at about 11am and the area was dead. A few barrow boys at work but that was it.
I'd say 4 mins max, so yep, the discovery of the apron is a poser. I was wondering many possibilities such as that Jack could have been hiding up the stairs when Halse and Long made their first visit and dumped the apron as he left. But he would have been there for ages if that happened. Huge risk.
I think it was there but missed or passed off as unimportant at the time. When it was found and its importance realised then, to cover their own arse, the stated it "weren't there when ah furst luked gov, honest".
I shall check out the dissertations.
Later
Monty
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Author: Monty
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 07:57 am | | AJ,
Commercial St Police Station is situated on the corner of Lamb st and Commercial St, right opposite the west entrance of Hanbury st and very close proximity to the Ten Bells.
Its a very distinctive building (it comes to a point) and is now, I believe, flats/appartments.
So people are actually living in a building where Jack could have been held.
WOW
Monty
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Author: Goryboy
Tuesday, 05 March 2002 - 12:04 pm | | Monty~
Good stuff, mate! Didn't know that about the Commercial St. Police Station. Did it figure prominently in the Autumn of Terror? Was it a central station where suspects were brought in off the street -- or chased there by mobs?
Very likely, then, that our boy was indeed held or questioned there at some point. Good thinking, Monty.
I'm beginning to agree with you that the bit of apron may well have been there all along, but the cops missed it at first. It was still quite dark, the street no doubt strewn with other scraps, rags and detritus, and the cops looking for a man -- a murderer -- not a rag.
"When it was found and its importance realised, then to cover their own arses, they stated that it "weren't there when ah furst luked gov, honest". -- I agree with this point also. They weren't all sterling, chivalrous knights in blue; they were beat cops. And although I believe the English variety is heads and shoulders above the rest in the world -- yes, even including American cops -- he was still a copper. A flatfoot. Answerable to terrible powers-that-be. So, like as not, they may have covered their arses in just such a manner as you described.
Now, then. What was the exact route you took? Can you tell me the names of all those backstreets and alleys? Conventional wisdom has it that Jack must have fled via a warren of alleys and backstreets leading from Gravel Lane. Is that what you found, or did you not go the Duke St-Gravel Lane route?
God, I wish I were there. We could leave your wife and my girlfriend at a nearby pub, then go investigate the possible route(s) Jack used on our own. Once we'd sussed it out, we could hit a DIFFERENT pub, get royally pissed, throw darts, shoot snooker and have a whale of a time.
THEN face the consequences......
Cheerio for now, mate,
Johnny Bitters
(w/a twist of lime, in a pint glass)
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Author: Monty
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 07:52 am | | Goryboy,
Is it ok if I answer you on a more appropriate board ?
Goulston street, later today ??
Not married mate, other half lives in Wembley but we were having a jolly up west.
She is my Gujarti princess and I shall not here a word against her....well, so she tells me !
Monty
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Author: Goryboy
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 08:58 am | | Yes, Monty, good idea. I shouldn't be cluttering up the Frances Coles board with all my Mitre Squ. rot.
As to Frances, her murder in Feb., 1891, with only a slash to the throat and no mutilations, would tend in my opinion to put her beyond the Rippery pale, don't you think? I think Saucy Jacky did his last job indoors (MJK), then fled to less vigilant zones.
Sadler as Ripper? No chance. I don't even think he was involved with Frances Coles' death -- too drunk, too beat-up and too bedraggled to perform a Ripper-like slaying. (Incidentally, Frances is said to be a "good-looking" young woman, but you certainly can't prove it by the mortuary photo.
See you on Goulston Street!
John eWidgit |
Author: Christopher T George
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 02:31 pm | | Hi, Gory and Monty:
I agree with you that I also think that Thomas Sadler makes a very unlikely candidate for Jack the Ripper. As for the looks of the ladies who were killed, I am afraid most of these ladies by the time they were killed had a very "used" look to them which is pathetic and lends extra sadness to the cruelty of their demise. Even Mary Jane Kelly was only a "beauty" comparatively speaking and because she was younger.
Best regards
Chris George
 Drinking a toast to the memory of the victims. |
Author: Monty
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 04:22 pm | | Jonh, Chris,
Sadler aint no ripper...but Coles, for me, is a lot closer victim than Tabram.
I feel it was another Stride job. An interruption by Thompson. Dont forget...he heard clear footsteps. Not the shuffle or stagger of a bladdered Sadler.
The my opinion for what its worth.
Monty
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Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Wednesday, 06 March 2002 - 06:26 pm | | Hi Chris/Goryboy/Monty
Sadler may not have been the Ripper but the Police certainly thought he did this one. Didn't they have him watched for some considerable time after he was acquited?
Can't believe that Frances was murdered by the Ripper. The MO is all wrong. To begin with she wasn't strangled half to death before her throat was cut. She even showed signs of life when Thompson found her. This is completely different to the Ripper killings.
Chris - I still think you're being a bit hard on these ladies as regards their looks (check out the photo reconstruction board if you don't believe me). Frances Coles was much better looking than even Mary Kelly I think.
I'm now toying with the idea, as a result of doing some photo reconstructions, that JTR hit these ladies about before strangling them. Stride had a lot of facial brusing as did Eddowes and Nicholls had a broken nose. Chapman showed much swelling around the neck (as did Tabram if you include her) and Kelly had a protruding tongue which I found in the mess of her mouth.
Frances Coles showed none of these signs and on medical evidence alone must clearly be excluded.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Monty
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 08:11 am | | Kev,
You exclude Coles then you exclude Stride.
I always thought Nichols busted nose was an old wound as was the missing teeth.
MO's change and evolve. Its the signature that remains constant. Theres not enough medical evidence to exclude nor include Francis. Thats why we are here..talking about her now. I cannot totally exclude her.
I also cannot believe that someone who was found (by the police) slapped severely and bladdered even more severely killed Coles 15 mins later.
Contrary to what I mentioned earlier, I can believe that Jack clouted his victims. A quick jab to confuse then straight to the throat in order to strangle them.
Monty
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Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Thursday, 07 March 2002 - 08:36 pm | | Monty
To be fair the evidence just isn't good enough to exclude her completely, but it just feels wrong. I think the MO is significantly different and don't see why that would also exclude Stride who was I thought strangled? Also she had the far more severe neck cutting that typified Ripper attacks although there is doubt about the knife.
On Sadler's condition, drink can affect people in different ways. Some handle it well, some handle it badly and some are capable of great violence whilst drunk even if to the point of looking incapable.
Significantly, Swallow Gardens can be used as a route from Whitechapel to the docks.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Monty
Friday, 08 March 2002 - 08:06 am | | Kev,
Re Stride, after checking up I can only conclude that you are correct. Sorry mate.
Sadlers condition ? Its not the murder that Im ill with, its the escape.
Later,
Monty
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Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Friday, 08 March 2002 - 08:22 pm | | Monty
There are two ways to look at the evidence against Sadler. On the one hand he was outside the Royal Mint, or just minutes from the murder scene at 2.00am. Coles died 15 minutes later. He was in the vicinity. On the other hand all who saw him, said that he was so drunk he could hardly stand. The jury clearly felt that this was true.
Possibly the best evidence that he was innocent is this. Sadler was staggering. He could have murdered Frances, but could he have walked away briskly? The footsteps that Thompson heard were brisk. I would have to agree with you Monty and say that on balance the evidence points to Sadler being a hooligan, but not a murderer. The Police (without our benefit of hindsight) clearly felt that he was the murderer in this case and continued to watch him. I am convinvced that nobody in the Police force believed him to be JTR after the intial scare or that the killing was part of the JTR series.
More on the actual murder. Thompson was proceeding towards Mansell Street when he heard footsteps ahead of him. This does not prove that the person ahead came out of Swallow Gardens (ahead of Thompson and on his left), but it is likely. Thompson then turned left into Swallow Gardens where he spotted the bundle on the ground which was Frances Coles.
The significance of this which I don't think has been said before is that, if the footsteps were those of the murderer he had already finished attacking Frances and was leaving. He was already out of Swallow Gardens and was walking along Chamber Street towards Mansell Street. In other words his attack was limited to cutting her throat. Her clothes were not disturbed in any way and Thompson had not frightened him off. If this was JTR we would have expected him to commence mutilation once he had cut her throat.
Thompson believed that he heard the murderer leaving and regretted not pursuing what might have been JTR, but the interpretation often seems to be along the erroneous lines of Thompson disturbing him in the act.
I think we can be pretty sure that Coles was not a Ripper victim because:
1. Attacker left freely without mutilating.
2. No evidence of strangulation.
3. Throat cutting was not the ferocious almost severing of the head as perpetrated by the Ripper.
4. Victim was still alive when discovered which was never the case with the canonicle victims.
5. Wounds to the back of the head indicating throwing down of the victim, again atypical of the JTR series.
I think what we have here is either some grudge killing (hence the Police suspicion of Sadler)or more likely an attempted violent robbery and silencing of the victim.
Regards
Kev |
Author: Monty
Monday, 11 March 2002 - 08:10 am | | Kev,
Thanks for giving me your views. Totally interesting and helpful.
Re strangulation and Stride. Theres no indication that Stride was strangled. No lividity nor tongue protrusion. I may be wrong though.
Thanks again
Monty
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Author: Jeff D
Saturday, 16 March 2002 - 06:16 am | | Hey !
I think it's interesting that on the day Frances Coles was murdered James Thomas Sadler, (an extremely violent and volatile ship's fireman from the Fez) had bought her a new hat. She then pinned her old hat under her dress.
It takes one back to a couple of years earlier and the optimistic view of a poor woman who had everything going against her, yet at the time she was being evicted from her doss house for the lack of 4-pence, was able to ejaculate the feeble words "See what a jolly bonnet I have".
Hhhmmmmmm ...... interesting ? or just another coincidence?
Jeff D |
Author: Kev Kilcoyne
Monday, 18 March 2002 - 04:42 pm | | Jeff
I think in Coles'case this is only because the Jolly Boys from the ships, would head up to Whitechapel as soon as they were paid off with plenty of readies and only two things on their minds. Namely women and booze! Bearing in mind that they would have a fair old bit of cash, the typical behaviour (a la Sadler) seems to have been, to pick a woman up and go on a binge with her for several days, staying in doss houses and such. This may have included the odd 'extra' like a bonnet. Such was the pattern with Coles. Actually this isn't all that much different today when ships put into port.
Nichols is a bit more difficult to explain. She seems to have turned a fair few tricks and then blown it all on booze, necessitating her last run for the doss money. She could have spent some of it on the bonnet, but bearing in mind her alcoholism it seems out of character. Someone could have given it to her, but again for a one off trick it seems unlikely. Curious eh?
There is something of a suspicion that a number of these ladies (I exclude Cole who in my opinion was not a Ripper victim) had appointments, viz:
Nichols and the bonnet - a taster of more to come, designed to get her to meet someone?
Stride appeared to go to meet someone - where did the flower come from?
Eddowes leaving the Police Station the same night whereas normally drunks were kept in overnight. Possibly going to meet someone at Mitre Square? Saying she knew who the Ripper was?
Kelly possibly going out to meet a trick and bringing him back to Millers Court?
Seems to be some circumstantial evidence here, but without a bit more meat, I can't really say it impresses me yet.
Kev |
Author: chris scott
Friday, 20 December 2002 - 08:29 pm | | I have been searching the 1881 census for some time for James Sadler so I've done a long search for anyone of the righ name with any seagoing connection. This threw up 3 entries which Im listing below:
James Sadler - seamen
1) James Sadler b.1844
Aged 37 born in Bristol
Mate on the "Electric"
Penarth, Glamorgan, Wales
2) b.1864
Aged 17 born in Bradwell Essex
Fisherman on the "Lord Salisbury"
Great Grimsby, Lincoln
3) b.1841
Aged 40 born Ipswich, Suffolk
Fireman on the "Adelaide"
Harwick St Nicholas, Essex
If any of these three are our man, my money is on Number 3 for what it's worth:-))
Regards
Chris Scott |
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