|
 |
 |
|
|
|
** This is an archived, static copy of the Casebook messages boards dating from 1998 to 2003. These threads cannot be replied to here. If you want to participate in our current forums please go to https://forum.casebook.org **
Joseph Lawende
Casebook Message Boards: Witnesses: Witnesses:
Joseph Lawende
Author: Steve L
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 04:19 am |        | Hello All,
I've just been looking at the online 1901 UK census, which has just returned to the net, and found, to my surprise, that there are no persons called 'Lawende' listed at all for the whole of the UK. So, in search for the witness from the Imperial club, I looked for Joseph Lavender, and found the following interesting entry:
Name = Joseph Lavender
Age = 54
Nationality = Poland Nat British Subject
Administrative County = London
Civil Parish = Islington
Occupation = Commercial Traveller
Another interesting 'Joseph Lavender' is mentioned in the Jewish Chronicle, 21 September 1894, in the births etc. column:
LAVENDER
On 14th September at 116 Mildmay Rd., Mildmay Park, the wife of Joseph Lavender of a daughter
These two snippets of information seems to fit in with a lot of details of the witness ‘Lawende’, with the exception of the spelling of his name. In particular, the census return has the occupation of commercial traveller and the age and nationality are consistent with him being born in Poland in 1847, as mentioned in the A-Z. But can anyone confirm that he did indeed change the spelling of his name between 1888 and either 1894 or 1901?
Regards,
Stephen |
Author: stephen miller
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 05:38 am | | Hi Steve have you actually looked at the original census sheet or simply the transcription as some mistakes have been made in the transcript eg. one of my ancestors was a watchmaker in the transcription his occupation is listed as watermaker
all the best
steve |
Author: David Radka
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 11:37 am | | Levander, I don't specifically remember Lavender, was used by the newspapers to describe the man contemporaneous with his testimony at the Eddowes inquest. It is probably an anglicization of Lawende which would be conceived naturally by the English people involved. It is quite possible the man was in the process of adopting an anglicization for business purposes.
David |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 12:33 pm | | Eastern European surnames were often transliterated into English according to the way that they sounded. As the letter "W" is very often pronounced "V" then Lavender would be a very reasonable variant of Lawende and there would be no question initially of the man deliberately choosing a more English variant. Of course as the generations developed the name would tend to become fixed as Lavender.
It would be too much to expect the 1901 census to have a Soundex facility! |
Author: Timsta
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 01:23 pm | | Just to note I couldn't find the 1894 birth in the IGI under Lavender, Lawende, or Levander. Records may be missing from that period (i.e. destroyed in WW2).
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Steve L
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 01:58 pm | | Hello Steve,
No, I haven’t, as yet, looked at the actual census sheet, nonetheless there are 3 points of similarity with the known facts about Joseph Lawende, namely his age, place of birth and occupation, which led me to make the suggestion.
I think the possibility of ‘Lavender’ as an Anglicisation of his name is consistent with Henry Smith’s description of him as a German. In particular, as the letter ‘W’ does not exist in German, but would be translated as ‘V’, it would be reasonable to assume that this is a possible way for it to appear on the census return. My knowledge of Polish is non-existent, so I am unable to verify that this particular Anglicisation would be appropriate for that language. I have a minor concern that Lawende had lived in England since 1871, according to the A-Z, and kept the original spelling until at least 1888, but it had changed by 1894.
Peter,
I agree that there is no guarantee that the transcription on the census is completely accurate, as it may not even have been filled in by a member of the household. Indeed the moderator may have filled in the census return for a household in some cases.
David,
I was unable top find ‘Levander‘ in any of the casebook press reports, but I believe his name was misspelled in several newspapers at the time.
Timsta,
The 1894 birth of a girl in Islington, with surname ‘Lavender’ is consistent with just one record in the 1901 census, namely that of a girl called Ruby Lavender. Again, I haven’t checked the census sheet to check that she was related to Joseph Lavender.
Regards,
Stephen |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 02:25 pm | | Guten tag, meine Damen und Herren:
One small point...
"In particular, as the letter ‘W’ does not exist in German, but would be translated as ‘V’, it would be reasonable to assume that this is a possible way for it to appear on the census return."
Actually, the letter W does exist in German. Example: "Was ist das, bitte?" means "What is this, please?". The letter W in the German alphabet is pronounced "vay". As a sidenote, the letter V would be pronounced "fay". So the word "Volkswagen" is pronounced "folksvagen" (as it was designed to be a car for the average person).
But I agree, it could be that he pronounced his name as "Lawende" and it was written as "Lavender" by a Brit.
Just full of useless trivia....
Auf wiedersehen!
Fraulein Divia |
Author: Timsta
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 03:25 pm | | Steve:
Just double-checked. No Ruby Lavender in the IGI. Actually I used to work in Finsbury Town Hall (where the BMD records for Mildmay Park are kept) - a *lot* got destroyed in the war or are otherwise missing.
Divia:
A quick scour in the IGI showed almost all Lawendes came from Holland - except for one record from Warsaw, Poland.
The Dutch pronunciation would be "LaWENder", the German "LaVENder". I think the Polish is similar to the German but my Polish is a little shaky to be honest.
Regards
TimstENder |
Author: The Viper
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 04:13 pm | | Timsta is correct about the German and Dutch pronounciations of the Lawende. Its natural Anglicised equivalent would be Lavender. As Peter Birchwood has pointed out many foreign immigrants did change their names when they came to Britain.
Re- the comment that most Lawendes in the 1901 Census came from Holland, it is because prior to the big influx of Eastern European Jews after 1881, much nineteenth century Jewish immigration to Britain was comprised of Ashkanazim people from Holland and Germany. Amsterdam had a particularly strong historical association with the Jews.
As far as Steve L's discovery is concerned, compare the census information to the The Times of 12th October 1888, "Joseph Lawende said that he lived at 45, Norfolk-road, Dalston. He was a commercial traveller." The location is close and the occupation is the same. If somebody can come up with an 1888 reference to Lawende's age we might have the clincher. As it stands, it is my strong suspicion that Steve has found our man. Well done!
It would be worth trying to tie Ruby Lawende into Joseph Lawende, just to clear up a loose end.
Unfortunately my middle-aged computer is proving hopelessly inadequate for accessing the online census. Anyone with twenty-first century technology might like to try adding to our knowledge by attempting to trace interesting case characters such as Michael Kidney, Joe Barnett, George Hutchinson and others. Thanking you.
Regards, V. |
Author: Neal Shelden
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 04:22 pm | | Just looking at the 1901 census index there are only two entries for a Michael Kidney and I wouldn't be sure about either of them.
There's one thats 50, born Ireland, living Tredegar-Monmouth, Labourer at Steelworks.
The other is 55, born Merthyr, living Roath-Glamorgan, a Dock Labourer. |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 06:02 pm | | Timsta:
Regarding the Mildmay Park records "destroyed" or missing.
There are always at least two copies of a BMD record: one copy kept in the local registry and one which would be sent to the Office of the Registrar General for storage and for inclusion in the country-wide BMD records.
For marriage records there will often be a third copy kept at the Church/Chapel etc.
It's therefore unlikely for a record to be completely destroyed. Even during the last War although Somerset House was bombed, the records had already been moved to secure depositories in Wales.
It's much more common in countries without a centralised registration system like France or the US for records to be destroyed in fires ("The courthouse burned down..." and genealogists are rightfully sceptical of stories that crucial births etc. were recorded in towns which subsequently suffered disasters. For example, see the attempts by the German/Polish author of "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" to claim US Nationality on the grounds that he was born in San Francisco pre 1904. |
Author: Divia deBrevier
Saturday, 21 September 2002 - 10:33 pm | | Hi Timsta:
Thanks for the info; I know almost nothing about the Poles or their language, so I have no idea how it would be pronounced.
I just posted to show that the letter W did and does exist in the German language, and that Lawende would be pronounced with a V sound if spoken by a German as proposed by Stephen.
Warm regards,
Divia |
Author: Jim Jenkinson
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 05:17 am | | Am I right in assuming that individuals didn't fill in census forms themselves in 1901, and they were questioned by officials at the door who then wrote the details from each household on the form ?
In the 1931 census, Matt Busby, who played for Manchester City, was described as a "fruit-boiler" instead of a footballer. His Scottish accent was the cause of the error.
Jim |
Author: Steve L
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 07:20 am | | Hello Viper,
The census seems to be offline for the rest of Sunday, but will be back on Monday morning. I think Barnett could be hard to locate as he seems to have changed address frequently, at least this is true for 1888 and before, and would have changed occupation since then. Also there are likely to be a lot of ‘Barnett’s in the census. In the meantime, here are a couple of other entries I found yesterday.
George Hutchinson is possibly the following man:
George Hutchinson
Age: 41
Born : Shadwell London
County: London
Parish: St Pancras
Occupation : Insurance Collector
The age is consistent with him being 28 in 1888, and the place of Birth listed as Shadwell is consistent with the one quoted in the Bob Hinton’s book. The parish and occupation are different though. I can find no other entries for a George Hutchinson that are consistent with more than two criteria.
Another interesting entry is that for Mathew Packer. He is listed as aged 74, and was still a Fruit and Sweet seller in St George’s in the East in 1901. It states that his place of birth was Goulston Street, Whitechapel. As the 1901 census was the last before the state pension was introduced following the 1909 budget, with a retirement age of 65, there should not be records of people aged 74 who are still working when the next census is published, namely the one for 1911.
Hi Divia and Timsta,
Thanks for putting me right on the German pronunciation/spelling regarding V/W. I really started looking at the name ‘Lavender’ when I could find no one called ‘Lawende’ and started thinking how the name could have been incorrectly spelt. Also, if I remember correctly, there was a posting on the boards from Martin Fido a couple of months ago suggesting names to investigate in search of ‘Lawende’ that included ‘Lavender’ as a possible spelling.
Regards,
Stephen |
Author: Timsta
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 06:16 pm | | Peter:
"Office of the Registrar General" being latterly Somerset House, and later (St?) Catherine's House, right? (I know it had a three letter abbreviation, but it's been 15 years - GRO maybe?)
It was my understanding that only the indexes were maintained centrally. Or was it just that only the indexes had been computerized at that point (late 1980s)?
What, then, is the source of the gaps in the IGI, do you think? Is it still only partially transcribed?
Regards
Timsta
(ex-Deputy Assistant Registrar for Births, Marriages and Deaths, London Borough of Islington, 1986-87 or thereabouts) |
Author: Timsta
Sunday, 22 September 2002 - 06:25 pm | | Jim:
Your story about Matt Busby gave me real fits. It also reminded me of a mystery that has haunted me for years. Of the great fruit-boiling brothers, Bobby and Jack Charlton, how come "Bubby" has a practically accentless delivery (with what sounds almost like a Yorkshire inflection), while Oor Jack is all "and look at the wa' he sworved the baaaal past the gerl'keepah"? I think this is an anomaly that would stump even the great Shorlock Herms hisself.
Had'awa,
Timstah |
Author: stephen miller
Monday, 23 September 2002 - 12:57 am | | Hi Timsta as far as I am aware the IGI is made up of contributions by members of Church of Latter Day Saints they are encouraged to research their Family History when they join.
They contribute a great deal to genealogy but the IGI should not be taken as Gospel people do make mistakes and information from it should still be checked out . It is however a marvellous research tool but it probably never will be complete.
all the best
steve |
Author: Guy Hatton
Monday, 23 September 2002 - 05:24 am | | Talking of census records as we were, it would seem that future researchers may have to approach the 2001 census with some caution, if this article from today's Guardian is to be believed. Note that no names are claimed to have been invented, but that 'notional addresses' thing could be a killer!
I'm reproducing the article here rather than linking, as the article's URL has commas which break the message board formatting:
Census officials plug gap with 1m invented citizens
David Walker
Monday September 23, 2002
The Guardian
Civil servants have "made up" personal details for at least 1 million people and added them to the results of the 2001 census, the first of which are published next week.
The Office of National Statistics (ONS) is topping up the number of real people that census-takers found on April 29 last year with "imputations" about others. At least 2% of the UK's new official population will be constructed using an experimental technique.
Officials have devised social profiles and even notional addresses for hundreds of thousands of unidentified individuals. They have added in more women aged 85-plus, men in their twenties, pre-school children, non-English speakers and people living in privately rented flats.
At the time of the census officials believed they could have missed 3 to 4% of the population, with particular problems in large cities, areas with transient populations and high unemployment. Concerns were also expressed about the management of the census, with criticism that there were not enough form collectors and that they were poorly trained.
"People are being included in the figures who were not actually there on census day - you could call it making people up," says Professor Paul Boyle, of St Andrews University, an expert on migration who has been on an academic panel consulted by the ONS. "We have every reason to believe this produces a more accurate picture of the UK population."
One effect of this will be to ensure that more government grants flow to poorer parts of the country where these hard to count people live.
Government statisticians came under fire after the 1991 census for underestimating the population - the counters missed one in 50 people. Popular dislike of the poll tax, which was then being wound up, was said to be a reason why people failed to respond. But sociologists now believe some groups are permanently "hard to count". During the past six years the ONS and its academic advisers devised an elaborate scheme to estimate the numbers of those who were not counted in order to supplement the raw results of the census.
The importance of census data is not so much the big picture but rising and falling numbers in particular cities and regions. In London, for example, the first release is likely to say population increases registered for Kensington and Chelsea have been exaggerated. This matters since government grants for schools, GPs and other services closely follow the official head count.
Cheers
Guy |
Author: Peter R.A. Birchwood
Wednesday, 25 September 2002 - 06:35 am | | Timsta:
They've now started using the abbreviation GRO instead of OPCS (Office of Population Censuses and Surveys) But the main name is ONS (Office for National Statistics.) Names change as often as the names of the Russian security organisations.
For births, the happy parent(s) go to the register office and make out the form. The original is kept in the book at the Supt. Registrars office and a copy is sent to the GRO. This was kept at Somerset House but following the move first to St Catherine's House and then to the Family Record Centre Myddelton St., all certificate copies are kept at Smedley Hydro, Southport which is why it takes about 10 days to get a copy of anything.
Marriage records are slightly different in that if the marriage is at a church/chapel or place where there is an Authorised person to keep records, that person will keep the original and one copy will be sent to the GRO. Once the book of marriage records kept by the incumbent or whoever is full, that will be sent to the local Supt. Registrar. However, if the place of marriage is rarely used then it may be some time before the Registrar receives the marriage book. In fact there are several parish churches which have had so few marriages that they are still using the original book sent them in 1837!
The IGI is an excellent aid to research but to a great extent it relies on individual members of the lDS sending in transcripts of events. The LDS are also transcribing church/chapel records but there is by no means a complete transcript of records available for anywhere. The nearest full transcript in the UK is probably for the Isle of Man where about 80% of the civil and church records are available in the IGI. |
Author: Timsta
Wednesday, 25 September 2002 - 12:11 pm | | Peter:
Thanks for the clarification and for refreshing my memory. Funnily enough, I used to live down the road from Smedley Hydro, too. Interesting how they've never changed the name, even 80 or whatever years later. I never went in there, though. I imagine it is an interesting building on the inside.
Regards
Timsta |
Author: Robert Maloney
Sunday, 29 September 2002 - 10:31 am | | Good morning,
I've been trying to think of a mathematical proof that it was Aaron Kosminski in the dark passage on the night of the double ev-ent. I think I've got one, so here goes. :-)
The Joeys are the Men:
Joey Lavender, a commercial traveller/trader with 9 children, a wife named Anne and business premises in St. Mary Axe? (ouch!-say it "AIN"T so Joe) And who was the god that offered protection to travellers and traders like Mr. Lilac? That's right, the god of the Eastern Desert, (The East End?) the Lord of Foreign Lands (Poland?), Min. Min, the god of fertility and sexuality. Min was often associated with the Egyptian "Cos" lettuce, (CosMinSki?) popular for its aphrodisiac qualities and a favorite food of the god, Set (the god of Chaos-KOS), sometimes known as Suty, the dark god. The symbols for Min were the barbed arrow or thunderbolt. He was frequently depicted as a male with an erect penis. (sound familiar?) Min wasn't just a fertility god like Osiris, who presided only over the fields (Spital-fields?), he was a god of male fertility who could give the pharaoh and other men the power to father a child. (evidently Mr. Lavender in particular with 9 kids oy vey!) Also, Min presided over the jubilee festival of the pharaoh, (217 Jubilee st.?) which included activities to help the pharaoh maintain the fertility of his youth and to further help ensure his longevity. Min was also worshipped by miners and men that quarried stone. (Lusk, the master builder, had 7 children!)
On the night of the 'double ev-ent', Joey Lavender was with Joey Hi-I-am the ("Lev" "eye" - athan) Levy, who LIVED in the very "LEV" of the district (Lev is heart in Hebrew) and whose (butcher?) address was NUMBER ONE ("squealed a bit" like a black pig) "Hutchinson" street, the same name as the man whose "lamp" view story just doesn't "Pan" out and whose "scapegoat" or Devil in the sheep coat and Kid-ne gloves was no ordinary "Joe" - NO!, not while wearing THAT "coat of many pieces" and while sporting such a 'nise' "horny" mustache. Interestingly, the name Levi, means "to cleave", which means 'to adhere to' or to split in two as if by a cutting blow. Hmm. Anyway, Joey "Lev"-"eye" did know "a" Kosminski but did he know A. Kosminski? And was the fair skinned knacker he saw in the "poorly lit" passageway, Aaron, the "illuminator"? Well, in addition to uttering one of the most unbelievable lines in the whole ripper saga, that line about not wanting to go home alone when "those" sort were about, (yeah right, Joey! - place heavy sarcastic "Brook-a-leen" inflection here) and how the court needed to be 'watched' (ha Levy, very funny) we are also informed that the passage was much better lit AFTER the appearance of...could it be!...the "Illuminator", Aaron? Eye Bet my Lamed it was and that's no Bull, dear Boss.
I can't do Atbash but I'll try semi-Qabalah:
(B+Lamed)=Lev+(Nothing=Ayin=Eye)=LevEye
Ah well, perhaps not good enough for M.I.T but good enough for me.
Rob |
Author: Diana
Sunday, 29 September 2002 - 02:58 pm | | | I hope that was tongue in cheek! |
Author: Jon
Sunday, 29 September 2002 - 05:40 pm | | Diana
I think Robert proposed a solution that can only be believed with a pinch of salt and understood with a bottle of whiskey.
regards, Jon
 |
Author: Caroline Morris
Monday, 30 September 2002 - 06:06 am | | Hi Rob,
Are you Joey's distant relation, Ian Lavender?
You stupid boy...
Love,
Caz |
Author: Robert Maloney
Monday, 30 September 2002 - 08:31 am | | I said nothing about a solution. So let me lay it out in, umm, lavender?
Aaron means "light bringer". Anyway, I have no interest in revealing the true name of Ra. I keep that to myself. Must run now, I don't want to miss the ferry.
Rob |
Author: David Radka
Monday, 30 September 2002 - 05:11 pm | | All,
The real solution is about 1/10th as probable as Mr. Maloney's.
David |
Author: Robert Maloney
Monday, 30 September 2002 - 05:21 pm | | | What solution?????? I didn't offer one!!!!!:-0 |
Author: Robert Maloney
Monday, 30 September 2002 - 07:16 pm | | Being serious for only a moment, I hope, I have suggested that the words "From hell" found in the Lusk letter derives from the Brothers Grimm children's fairy tale "The Devil's Sooty Brother. When this is coupled with the Openshaw letter where the writer plays on the words found in the Cornish version of the Brothers Grimm children's fairy tale Rumplestiltskin, (correctly identified as Duffy and the Devil, by A. Dylan Gable, I believe) you have an interesting double event. But then, when you have an important "witness" by the name of Thomas Coram, a name synonymous with "the child", you have, I believe, a possible trifecta. That's the symbolism that I work with.
Rob |
|
|
|
|
